Community Comment

Roman or Christian?

Posted by Dave

May 18, 2009 5:17 a.m. • 7 comments

Good morning, Netizens…

In his prologue to his column, which typically accompanies his cartoons, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer’s David Horsey states in part that “Our descent into torture as policy has compromised our founding vision. We, today, have become too Roman.”

He then cites a poll taken by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life that states that 62% of Evangelical Protestants believe torture of suspected terrorists is justified. (http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156) The poll question wording, according to the Pew Forum web site, is, “Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?”

The results of this poll are illuminating, especially when you pay attention to those unaffiliated with any organized religion. It would seem, according to Horsey, that there are more Christians in the United States who place more of their faith in Dick Cheney than Jesus Christ.

Like David Horsey, I do not believe that not only is torture illegal, it does not work. That, of course, will beg the question, whether or not it works, is it right? I fear this question will be visited over and over again for generations yet to come. However, a surprising number of Americans seem perfectly content with agents of the United States government carrying on like Roman soldiers at a crucifixion.

Yes, despite their magnificent culture and history, the Romans were known for torturing and crucifying those who disagreed with their principles, including Christians.

Where do you stand on the use of torture? Are you Roman or are you Christian?

Dave

Seven comments on this post so far. Add yours!

spokelooneh on May 18 at 8:27 a.m.
Oh please. We’re in the middle of Crusade here with the throat-cutting Islamo-Fascists. This is a war for Civilization itself, and we must do everything necessary to preserve the God-Given American Way of Life. Why do you hate America and our troops?

“On the morning of Thursday, April 10, 2003, Donald Rumsfeld’s Pentagon prepared a top-secret briefing for George W. Bush. This document, known as the Worldwide Intelligence Update, was a daily digest of critical military intelligence so classified that it circulated among only a handful of Pentagon leaders and the president; Rumsfeld himself often delivered it, by hand, to the White House.

The briefing’s cover sheet generally featured triumphant, color images from the previous days’ war efforts: On this particular morning, it showed the statue of Saddam Hussein being pulled down in Firdos Square, a grateful Iraqi child kissing an American soldier, and jubilant crowds thronging the streets of newly liberated Baghdad. And above these images, and just below the headline secretary of defense, was a quote that may have raised some eyebrows. It came from the Bible, from the book of Psalms: “Behold, the eye of the Lord is on those who fear Him…To deliver their soul from death.”

This mixing of Crusades-like messaging with war imagery, which until now has not been revealed, had become routine. On March 31, a U.S. tank roared through the desert beneath a quote from Ephesians: “Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.” On April 7, Saddam Hussein struck a dictatorial pose, under this passage from the First Epistle of Peter: “It is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.”
…”
http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_9217
George_Sands on May 18 at 10:05 a.m.
I am neither Roman nor Christian.

I am a Patriot. Def: One whom is willing to give their life to protect their Country against/from their Government.

I swore to uphold the Consititution of the United States. I am beholden to no president, no government, no political party.

I believe in Truth, Justice and the American way.
ChefGus/ John Olsen on May 18 at 11:44 a.m.
I’ve got your back George… john
Diana on May 18 at 11:53 a.m.
I get what you’re saying here, Dave, but if that is the only choice, Roman or Christian, I’d have to say neither. Not a Roman because I would never attempt to squash another’s beliefs. And not a christian today, which is pretty damn far from Christ’s teachings. Some people are asking “WWJD” on the subjects of torture and the rights of all human beings, and they’ve certainly got a point, So many things done in the name of Christianity are as evil as you can get.
ChefGus/ John Olsen on May 18 at 12:57 p.m.
i’ve got your back too Diana…. things done “in the name of Christ” are often horrific and defended on the basis of some Old Testament Scripture…. not in alignment with any of the four Gospel’s… We meet christ in the poor and lowly and less well off every day… it is not often that we meet christ in a person who practices Christianity… rare indeed…. “those people” ( my street/low income folks are not found to be welcome upstairs in the sanctuary of the same church that allows us to feed them in the basement….. go figure… chef g
Jeffrey_Grey on May 18 at 2:23 p.m.
Dave,

I’ve grown very weary of all the lofty, philosophical, *intentionally distracting*, hypothetical rationalizing surrounding this issue. (Such as that exemplified by that survey you mention above.)

We have admitted that we employed torture to go on fishing expeditions. There was no ticking time bomb. There was no known immediate peril. All that was known going in was the fact that the people in custody were bad people and were probably plotting to do bad things at some point in the future.

The simple fact is that we didn’t know what they knew - **or if they really and truly knew anything at all** - before we tortured them. In some cases, as a result of our regime of torture, all we got were names and addresses and tables of organization.

There are numerous, documented instances where more humane, *more legal* methods produced these same results, *and far better results as well*, more quickly.

So let’s ask the real question here: ‘Given all of the above, do you believe that torturing for names, address and details of an organization’s structure or to learn just exactly what a victim might or might not know to begin with is allowable; always, some of the time, or none of the time.

Like George, I once swore and oath that makes my only honorable and specific answer to the above reality-based specific question an emphatic ‘none of the time’.
Dave Laird on May 19 at 2:35 a.m.
Good morning, Diana…

You wrote in part:

I get what you’re saying here, Dave, but if that is the only choice, Roman or Christian, I’d have to say neither. Not a Roman because I would never attempt to squash another’s beliefs. And not a christian today, which is pretty damn far from Christ’s teachings. Some people are asking “WWJD” on the subjects of torture and the rights of all human beings, and they’ve certainly got a point, So many things done in the name of Christianity are as evil as you can get.

Indeed, some of the things rumbling out of the mouths if not actions of pious Christians are about as vile as can be. Since it is quite early in the morning, even for me, I cannot consciously recall the source, but it has been said that more people have been killed in the name of God than anyone else.

Dave