Trib: We Need Immigrants, Jorgenson

38 comments on this post so far. Add yours!

• 

  Smacky on December 14 at 10:12 a.m.

  I stand as a grandchild of one of them.

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  LukeB on December 14 at 10:21 a.m.

  Americans are the worst hypocrites when it comes to immigration - we want the cheapest food (and other labor) money can buy, and then whine when the best way to provide that is via illegal immigration.

  Are you willing to pay more to only hire legal workers?

• 

  Laughing on December 14 at 10:25 a.m.

  I totally support legal immigration. The U.S. is, after all the great melting pot. However, illegal immigration is just that, illegal. Economic “necessity,” or not, the “il” must be removed from the type of immigration.

• 

  ShoshoneConservative on December 14 at 10:29 a.m.

  With the unemployment as it stands now, do we really “need” illegal immigrant labor? On the one side of their mouths, a lot of Republican politicians will say “we don’t need a minimum wage, the market will take care of it,” i.e., wages will drop to a point where people won’t accept them, so employers will offer more to induce people to work for them.

  Then, on the other side of their mouths, the same politicians will say “we need to import foreign workers, since Americans will not do these jobs for those wages,” i.e., wages have dropped to a point where people won’t accept them, so employers need to bring in workers from another country to do the job.

  In other words, as long as it keeps wages down, it’s fine. Though, the Irish coal miners and eastern European steel workers have shown that “cheap” immigrant workers will not settle for low wages and poor working conditions forever.

  Also, even if we do need immigrant labor, why do we need “undocumented” immigrant labor? If there really is a need, the solution is to make it easier for them to come in legally, not turn a blind eye to those who are entering illegally.

  BTW, my father and grandmother are both Canadian citizens (who entered legally), and I was born in Canada myself, so the old “nativist” canard will not work with me.

• 

  nic on December 14 at 10:29 a.m.

  “nativist element of the Republican Party”

  Nativists as in the ones that came here from Europe? Or the ones that were here before white people? I have a sad hunch that these nativists within the R’s are the same that are say they want their country back.

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  ShoshoneConservative on December 14 at 10:31 a.m.

  “Are you willing to pay more to only hire legal workers?”

  Absolutely.

• 

  redman on December 14 at 10:33 a.m.

  We need them (illegal immigrants)? Marty what are you thinking you throw up a bunch of nonsense gobble gobble numbers then proclaim we need them….. You can do better than that. How about this. We have 10% unemployment right now, how much unemployment would we have if we made sure all of our immigrants were legal? How about the drug cartels and money launders operating in our illegal communities, no one points out those issues. Lets make them legal Marty….do you have a problem with that?

  Yes let’s pay more and have LEGAL workers

• 

  Smacky on December 14 at 10:40 a.m.

  Redman, if i recall correctly, money launderers and drug cartels are against the law regardless of who is at the reins…what’s the point?

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  GrayRiv on December 14 at 11:01 a.m.

  We won’t deport 12,000,000 people in the country illegally. It just won’t happen. So we keep holding onto that fantasy, we tolerate 12,000,000 people living underground…OR: We do the only sensible thing, get those 12,000,000 workers, parents, and residents into the system, protected by rights on the job, fully taxed, above board, and able to stand with native workers for better wages and working conditions. Weed out serious criminals and create a functioning legal immigration system moving forward that rational, well-intentioned people will use, not circumvent. We need to get the opponents of legal immigration out of the way to fix what is broken and end illegal immigration.

• 

  Tony on December 14 at 11:02 a.m.

  Costs of most farm products would escalate enormously without undocumented workers. The corporate farmers would have to pay at least double what they pay now. Even then, we probably could not intice US citizens to do hard labor. When we are willing to pay $2.00 for an apple, or $10 per pound for meat, this may change the immigrant question. 99% of illegal workers are here to better themselves amd their familiys at home.
  Leave the drug questions out of this discussion. The cartels are in direct response to the “War on Drugs”, an entirely different problem. Decriminalize drugs, end that problem.

• 

  hmoffsuite on December 14 at 11:05 a.m.

  Being in Arizona, I have some rather mixed feelings regarding this issue. Our sheriff Joe says he runs an “equal opportunity jail” system and if he comes across an undocumented, he just puts them in jail. As I type this, I have about 4 illegals mowing and trimming my lawn. My cleaning lady’s husband, who had worked 3 jobs, got picked up by being in a car pulled over for a traffic violation. After jailing him, they sent him back to Mexico. I asked the cleaning lady what he was going to do and she said he would just walk back. (it takes 9 days). This fall, my best palm tree trimmer didn’t show up like he normally does when we get down here for the season. His buddy came by and said he went back to Mexico because the work available had diminished so much due to the economy. So, I had to pay more to have the trees trimmed this time. Bottom line here is that this immigration issue is a very complex equation. I think we should document all illegals currently in the States and keep tabs on them and be certain they are paying taxes if employed. We should stop illegal immigration at the borders and provide amnesty to those already here. After period of their being good citizens, let them learn our language and become American citizens through the legal process. This is a toughie. Most immigrants merely want a better life for themselves and their families and are good, hard working, law abiding people. I admire them in many respects.

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  lastdemoinidaho on December 14 at 11:19 a.m.

  Wow, HMO. A rather progressive outlook for someone with your otherwise “right” outlook politically.
  Agree with much of what you say. Can’t help but wonder if you would be thinking quite so warmly towards those illegal workers around you if you were up here in Idaho 24/7.

  I generally agree with your suggestions. But I would personally insist that no-one gets a citizen card until they pass some basic english skills, both speaking and reading. To do otherwise will push us too far into a two-language nation, like Quebec. Have spend winter months in the deserts of southern Cal for a dozen years, and I hate going to Walmart and other “common man” stores to be served by empolyees who speak almost no english. Just not right.

• 

  nic on December 14 at 11:35 a.m.

  @ lastdemo re: “no-one gets a citizen card until they pass some basic english skills”

  That would make sense if English was the official language of the US.

  “To do otherwise will push us too far into a two-language nation, like Quebec.”

  That would be progress, considering we’re a zero language nation. English is not our official language. Neither is Spanish of French, or Swahili, or Klingo. If we became a two language nation, we’d at least have an official languge. (and since when did Quebec become a nation? Did they secede?)

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  ShoshoneConservative on December 14 at 11:36 a.m.

  “After period of their being good citizens, let them learn our language and become American citizens through the legal process.”

  Full citizenship, i.e., naturalization, with all of the filing fees, etc., is an expensive process - this is why my father and grandmother, are still Canadian citizens, and only “resident aliens” (my mother is American, so it was easier for me to get my citizenship). If the fees are waived or the process is somehow expedited for those who are here illegally, then you are, in a sense, rewarding those who just snuck across, and punishing those who went through the correct process.

  A process to make the illegals already here “legal” resident aliens is one thing. Full citizenship is going a lot further.

• 

  ShoshoneConservative on December 14 at 11:41 a.m.

  “(and since when did Quebec become a nation? Did they secede?)”

  Actually, the Canadian government recently granted “nation status” to Quebec - it doesn’t really mean that much, but it helped the Conservative Party win some votes in Quebec.

  Though, Quebec is a one-language “nation” - French (Google “Bill 101”+Quebec). Canada, however, has both official French and English, and, no matter where you go in Canada, or how few Francophones living there, Federal Government offices have to have signage in both languages, and offer services in both languages.

• 

  lastdemoinidaho on December 14 at 11:49 a.m.

  Duh. Of course I know Quebec is not a seperate country. Just trying to make a point. Photos I have seen from Quebec seem to show most commecial signage as exclusively French or always French first.
  Yes, I also know english is not our official language. And again, it would be great if more of us learned other languages as so many do in Europe.
  But I do not appreciate the fractionalizing of our country into little barrios of Spanish, or Viets, or Chinese, or Polish or French or ….
  Our strength as a nation long term will depend on a truly integrated society where those “little nation” neighborhoods are no longer needed or desired.

• 

  nic on December 14 at 11:53 a.m.

  Thanks lastdem… that makes more sense than your previous post.

• 

  eagleeye on December 14 at 11:57 a.m.

  I think we should send all illegals home except for the couple of hundred that work for Suite !

• 

  spokelooneh on December 14 at 1:18 p.m.

  “Tony on December 14 at 11:02 a.m.

  Costs of most farm products would escalate enormously without undocumented workers. ”

  Not according to most of the studies on the matter, for example:

  “Similarly, if the supply of cheap, illegal foreign labor were cut off, it would not mean the collapse of agricultural producers or skyrocketing costs to the American consumer. First, it should be noted that labor-intensive agricultural crops represent a small share of the overall production of crops. Secondly, studies have documented that the labor costs of production of even those crops that are labor-dependent represent a small share of the retail price.

  A 1996 study by an Iowa State agricultural economist concluded that “The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term.” During winter-spring seasons, the cost increase from relying on our native labor force and legal temporary workers would be only about half as much.”
  http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters91bf

  Now it is a problem in that Americans in general need to eat a much higher proportion of fresh fruits and vegetables (and less meat) in order to curb this obesity epidemic which is a major cost
  driver in the ever escalating health care costs.

• 

  Phaedrus on December 14 at 1:58 p.m.

  I have about 4 illegals mowing and trimming my lawn—suite

  Is it not against the law, in Arizona, to knowingly hire an illegal immigrant?

• 

  hmoffsuite on December 14 at 2:18 p.m.

  Phaedrus. I hire the guy who owns the lawn service company. He is documented and legal. The rest is up to him.

• 

  Phaedrus on December 14 at 2:29 p.m.

  The rest is up to him.

  Splitting hairs. but that seems to be the conservative way. At least today.

• 

  moscow_minidoka on December 14 at 2:40 p.m.

  Hey, I just *assumed* the guy selling the TVs from the back of his car must have acquired them through legitimate sources. How was *I* to know they were stolen?

  In all seriousness, hmoff - if you just hire the lawn care company, how on earth do you know whether the people mowing your lawn are illegals are not? Did you ask for their green cards? Or does the fact that they’re Mexican simply lead you to assume they must be illegal immigrants rather than legal ones?

• 

  hhuseland on December 14 at 2:40 p.m.

  There is much value in the argument for bringing back the Bracero program. Bus them into the country, provide housing and then bus them back to Mexico. That would largely solve the illegal immigration problem and would still provide workers for the crops that need harvesting. When I was a teen we didn’t have fast food outlets for us to work at. In my case, living in an area southeast of Seattle, we all jumped into the bean fields that stretched from Renton to Puyallup in Western Washington. We worked near some braceros that entertained us by politely answering our questions about Mexico, while out working us by about 10-1.

• 

  hmoffsuite on December 14 at 2:44 p.m.

  MM >> ” how on earth do you know whether the people mowing your lawn are illegals are not?”

  I asked the owner. That is not an uncommon situation here.

• 

  hmoffsuite on December 14 at 2:49 p.m.

  Phaedrus >> “Splitting hairs. but that seems to be the conservative way. At least today.”

  It’s also the liberal way. The culture here is accepting of the situation and has been for many years. Your understanding of the situation in Arizona, or California for that matter, is noted.

• 

  Smacky on December 14 at 2:55 p.m.

  We would not really need the Bracero program with all its formalities and faults. But, when you put up a fence to keep people out, those who managed to get in are kept here by operation of that same fence. The border fence resulted in a stop to seasonal migration for mexican workers.

• 

  Sisyphus on December 14 at 2:58 p.m.

  “I asked the owner. That is not an uncommon situation here.”—one always talks to the plantation proprietor first MoMi. Cause of the pottery barn rule. If you damage a slave you might have to buy him.

  “When I was a teen we didn’t have fast food outlets for us to work at.”—this was before incandescent lights, skyscrapers and condoms. Braceros changed everything.

• 

  Phaedrus on December 14 at 3:18 p.m.

  The culture here is accepting of the situation and has been for many years.

  So you only follow the laws that benefit you? Can everyone else apply the same selectivity? Otherwise it sounds much like elitism.

• 

  saraeanderson on December 14 at 3:34 p.m.

  I don’t understand how his “professional stance” could be anything other than, “follow the law.”

  If someone’s in his office, they’re trying to work things out via the system.

• 

  hmoffsuite on December 14 at 3:56 p.m.

  Phaedrus. Sometimes that liberal chip you have on your shoulder turns into a 4X4. You’ll pick a fight over just about anything, won’t you? I said in my initial post that I was very conflicted about this immigration thing.

• 

  Sisyphus on December 14 at 4:15 p.m.

  And a reasonable response it was too.

• 

  hhuseland on December 14 at 4:20 p.m.

  @Sis: My memory is somewhat faulty, but as I recall, we had incandescent lights, but you had to travel east of the Mississippi to find skyscrapers back then. Condoms were out tof the question for kids. They were under the counter behind the druggist. I think you had to be 18 to buy them … I started somewhat earlier than that. Oh, and we had cars, too. Model A Fords and such.Horses & buggies became unpopular, since the Braceros were shipped home and there was nobody to operate the pooper-scoopers. Candlelight dinners were mostly when the power went out, which was often. Nowadays people have candlelight dinners so that their dates look better.

• 

  ShoshoneConservative on December 14 at 4:57 p.m.

  Another thing to consider - if the illegal immigrants here are regularized somehow, will their labor be as cheap? Now, they are unlikely to complain to OSHA or the Department of Labor over workplace conditions or minimum wages; plus, the employer can exercise a degree of intimidation by telling them “put up and shut up, or I’ll turn you into immigration.”

  But, once they are above board, and can make complaints without fear of deportation, will the cost savings be the same? Moreover, they might - *gasp* - even organize and form unions.

• 

  BajaRat on December 14 at 5:21 p.m.

  Illegal aliens are criminals and parasites, one and all. Their very presence here and practically everything they do on U. S. soil is illegal. They need to be ferreted out, rounded up like cattle, punished for their numerous crimes, then booted back to whence they snuck in from with such extreme prejudice that they will never, ever think of violating our sovereignty again. Enough is enough.

• 

  spokelooneh on December 14 at 5:30 p.m.

  Looks like a Mess troll stumbled in.

• 

  DelawareBob on December 14 at 6:14 p.m.

  Illegal aliens are destroying this Country, and one would have to be also blind not to see this.

  Illegal aliens have made America the dumping ground for all their illegal alien children, then we have to school them and give them free medical care.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSe3C5vMafM&NR=1

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_ZnX9JRo5M&NR=1

  http://www.kpho.com/video/18452473/index.html

  I for one, am sick and tired of these illegal aliens snubbing their nose at our immigration laws and the many other laws of this Country. If our Federal Government can not ENFORCE our immigration laws, and get these illegal aliens out of this Country, then let the States do it! One way or another, an end has to come to this illegal immigration, and not with AMNESTY! Amnesty will only encourage more illegal aliens to invade our Country and reward those who broke our laws and raped the American taxpayer in many ways…depressing our wages, taking our jobs, overwhelming our schools with their ILLEGAL ALIEN children, driving without a license or car insurance, all the crime from stolen identities to rape, drugs and everything else.

  It’s time for ZERO TOLERENCE with these illegal aliens. It’s time for them get out of this Country and back in their own Country where they belong. When we get rid of the illegal aliens, we will get rid of all the problems that go with them. THAT IS A FACT!

  Do I have a problem with LEGAL immigration? No, but with so many Americans out of work right now and jobs a little scarce, legal immigration and VISAS should be put on hold until we get back on out feet. Getting the illegal aliens out of this Country would help!

• 

  spokelooneh on December 14 at 9:04 p.m.

  Inmates… asylum, you get the drift…

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