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The Senate today passed an economic stimulus bill that President Obama and congressional Democrats called crucial to pull the U.S. economy out of its downward spiral but that drew scant support from Republicans. Senators voted 61 to 37 to approve the massive bill, which the Congressional Budget Office now says would cost $838 billion over 10 years. Only three Republicans voted in favor of it. In the House, an $819 billion version of the package passed on Jan. 28 with no Republican support/Washington Post. More here.
Related: Idaho senators vote no. Read news releases for Crapo and Risch.
Question: Did Idaho Sens. Crapo and Risch vote correctly?
D.F. Oliveria is a columnist and blogger for The Spokesman-Review. Huckleberries Online was judged the best 2008 Idaho newspaper blog by the Idaho Press Club. And the best 2007 news blog in the Pacific Northwest by the Society for Professional Journalist. Print Huckleberries is a past winner of the Herb Caen Memorial Column contest by the National Association of Newspaper Columnists. The Readership Institute of Northwestern University cited this blog as a good example of online community journalism.
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Sisyphus on February 10 at 11:17 a.m.
“Did Idaho Sens. Crapo and Risch vote correctly?”—they sure did if you wanna go over that deeper unemployment cliff. Half the unemployment figures occurred in the last three months with no end in sight. We all know someone affected. But very nice fact free press releases with no alternative plans. Gosh being a minority obstructionist seems fun. Are they hoping for failure like Rush?
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 11:22 a.m.
Sis. Maybe they think that passing out billions and billions of dollars to democrat special interests really isn’t the way to stimulate the economy.
idawa on February 10 at 11:29 a.m.
I think, that as Republican, they voted correctly (or at least rationally). As a republican, if the plan fails you can always point out that you didn’t buy in and it wasn’t you who wasted all that money. Also, the republicans, as a party, don’t have much to gain if it does work. If it works it will be evidence in support of Keynesian economics which the Republican have been trying to dispute for decades - to accept it would be to implicitly agree that your argument has been wrong since before Reagan.
Of course, they run the very big risk of it succeeding and then they will have just put just another check mark in the column counting toward their irrelevancy.
If I were a republican faced with this problem, I would probably vote against this to. If you really believe in supply side economics, then how could you vote for it without portraying that you’ve been wrong all along. Even if you are wrong, and the plan works, you can at least claim the mantle of trying to be protector of the American wallet. Faced with those outcomes, the safest “political” choice for the minority is to be obstructionist.
toadman on February 10 at 11:32 a.m.
“Senate OKs Porkulus Bill…”
No.. THAT’S not a suggestive headline at all.. no sir.
One man’s pork, is another mans dinner.
;-)
Everyone needs to stop listening to Hannity’s insanity, et.al., and move on… we all knew it was going to pass…it could have passed earlier, but the dems at least had the courtesy to listen to the repubs, and let some sacred cows be cut out (Pelosi’s pissed, I hear….but I’m ok with that.). Also, Obama’s owning it.. he’s pretty much said that if it doesn’t work, it’s his fault. That takes balls.
I have a wait-and-see attitude about it…it brings me more inner peace, you know. Besides, the value of money is an illusion anyway.. it’s meaningless.
toadman on February 10 at 11:34 a.m.
idawa - never underestimate a politicians ability to spin a success into a failure, or vice-versa. As far as most hard-lined capitalist Republicans are concerned, it’ll fail, even if it works. See? It’s “creative” logic.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 11:43 a.m.
Whoa and I thought I was cynical. So much for their claims of bipartisanship. I reckon bipartisan to a Republican is giving lip service to other ideas when you’re in power, and screaming like a gut shot cougar when you’re not. I think Obama was right when he said he shoulda never tried to fashion a bipartisan bill to begin with and let the Republicans think tax cuts were their idea so they’d have something to crow about. So much for a honeymoon.
“Even if you are wrong, and the plan works, you can at least claim the mantle of trying to be protector of the American wallet.”—not with a straight face they can’t. No economy, no tax revenue.
Bob on February 10 at 11:56 a.m.
Lose lose for Rethugs. If the *porkulus* package works, they are the intellectually bankrupt hustlers of old Ronald Reagan’s mouldering ghost and they just ick out America in addition to not caring about America’s unemployed.
If the *porkulus* package fails, oh well, it was because Chimpy left such a catastrophic mess of the economy from tax cutting and under-regulating and huge deficit spending for illegal warring that no government intervention will immediately fix a fail of Bush’s magnitude.
Obama rocks! Obama’s in the driver’s seat and the Rethugs are hangin on to the bumper!
idawa on February 10 at 11:57 a.m.
Cynicist or pragmatist - I have such a hard time telling the difference.
As Toad said, even if the bill works the Republicans will be able to spin this as if they were simply trying to defend the taxpayers wallet and that if we do recover it was do to something else…it couldn’t possibly be the result of gov’t intervention. ;)
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 12:06 p.m.
Bob >>> “Obama rocks! Obama’s in the driver’s seat”
I really wish he were. Only problem is he just got his drivers license, so to speak. He’s never driven anything like this before. Or, even close. Barely driven at all, as a matter of fact. As a result, I think Pelosi and Reid are really at the controls here. I
toadman on February 10 at 12:19 p.m.
hmoffsuite - well, it’s only been, what, about three weeks since he became CIC, right? Maybe we should give the guy a little more time. We gave the last guy eight years to own up to his mistakes, didn’t we?
Sisyphus on February 10 at 12:22 p.m.
Haven’t you heard Toad, Bush never made any mistakes. Obama has already admitted to some. Like trying to work with Republicans.
Bob on February 10 at 12:28 p.m.
Well, according to Clayton Cramer, all the wealth in this nation is concentrated in the hands of the left as he whines in this plaintive beg for donations so he can stay home and blog and work on policy issues. Poor Clayton. Let’s have a bake sale. Brownies!
“I want to thank those of you who are making contributions through PayPal. I am about to start working at my day job (the one that actually pays me decently), and while it’s a pretty good job—I sure would prefer to spend my days working on public policy issues and blogging. Unfortunately, nearly all wealth in this country is concentrated in the hands of the left, and as a result, there simply isn’t any opportunity for me to do what I prefer, and what I believe helps to make this country a better place.”
http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2009_02_08_archive.html#5383798836742850942
toadman on February 10 at 12:29 p.m.
Well, I for one hope the stimulus package works. I don’t care how much it costs, or if it pisses off republicans OR dissapoints democrats. I don’t even care if it nationalizes banks and sends us closer to socialism. I really don’t care, so long as people can go back to work and put food in their tables.
It’s time we rewarded work, instead of investment. It’s time for the workers to control the means of production.
;-) (that last line was for Cabbage.)
toadman on February 10 at 12:32 p.m.
….add to all that, I don’t care if it includes dog parks, money for the arts, or anything of the sort. It’s all money, it’s all someone’s job, and it’s all tied together. I used to work at an art museum, and times were good during the Clinton era, but after I left, and the Bush era rolled in, they lost funding and had to cut jobs. Art is important, and art should be free….also, art should be federally funded.
There.. I said it…
“eeek!!! he said it!!”
toadman on February 10 at 12:35 p.m.
Ow.. poor widdle ClaytonC. He’ll have to memorize the line “Hello, Welcome to Wal-Mart!” soon, I think.
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 12:39 p.m.
toad >> “It’s time we rewarded work, instead of investment. It’s time for the workers to control the means of production.”
Workers can easily control their means of production. Go plant some crops and work them. But, if they think there is a better wage working in a factory or two, THAT requires investment. If you wanna go back to being an agriarian society, go for it. Investment creates work, Toad, not the other way around. When taxes are a penalty, there will be less investment. Lower taxes, more investment, more work. Its not about personal income and taxes, guys, its about encouraging investment in productive resources that create jobs. Many of you have a tough time grasping this concept. Most dems do.
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 12:44 p.m.
toad >>> “….add to all that, I don’t care if it includes dog parks, money for the arts, or anything of the sort. It’s all money,”
The task at hand here is to provide a stimulus to jump start the economy. Create jobs that don’t go away when the money does. Wouldn’t it be better to build a nuke plant than a dog park, soccer field or frisbee golf course?
Aerie on February 10 at 12:47 p.m.
It’s all about trickle down voodoo economics! I’m with hmo, it is high time we give credit where credit is due, and that is to the Reagnites that have kept the dreams alive. Businesses all over America are poised to hire and support their communities, if only their tax burdens were reduced to levels that were more like other countries.
In fact, I think it is indicative of the political partisanship that businesses are quietly folding up shop because the Democrats just won’t continue the amazing tax cuts of the Bush Administration. Bush may not have been perfect, but his tax cuts were exactly what this country needed and if not for our weakening resolve, a continuation of those tax cuts would have easily averted the worst of this recession.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 12:57 p.m.
“nearly all wealth in this country is concentrated in the hands of the left,”—how the hell did that happen? Odd that Republicans would keep giving them tax breaks so they could fund Obama’s candidacy. Well I’m grateful that when Clayton becomes rich he may see the light. Or maybe, just maybe, someone’s thought process might be fallacious.
idawa on February 10 at 1:05 p.m.
hmo: “Investment creates work, Toad, not the other way around…Many of you have a tough time grasping this concept. Most dems do.”
Then again, hmo, like most repubs, appears to be a simple linear thinker who fails to see the connection between things. True, work is produced because investment decided to create an enterprise that requires people to labor. But that investment will only occur if the investor believes there is a likelihood of return, ie that investor must believe that someone will consume what they invested to produce. Unfortunately, in our economy, most consumption is by consumers who also happen to be laborers (not investors) and it is laborers’ spending which drives investments.
Here is rub: If workers do not have work they will not spend, if they will not spend than investors will not invest, and if the investors don’t invest than there is no work. So, the economy is a lot more circular than a simple “investment creates work” statement implies. I think many people our starting to realize that injecting a tax break into one part of that circle (investors) does not work its way all the way around. It is the combination of providing workers with money to spend and ensuring that investor have money to invest that are key to making this thing work.
Kage_Mann on February 10 at 1:13 p.m.
I heard that the $838 billion stimulus package the senate just passed includes:giving 5 bil. to acorn, frisbee parks etc. How outrageous the dems want to fund stuff like this.Yea, lets help to
fund an organization who committed fraud this last election.
Aerie on February 10 at 1:22 p.m.
True, Kage, Obama owes too much of his election to Acorn. Could this be the moment where he messes up and causes alarm to his loyal believers or will it take more than millions in handouts to criminal organizations?
GaryIngram on February 10 at 1:24 p.m.
Yeah, rant on and on. Fact is the stock market doesn’t like it and dropped for the biggest one day loss since before Christmas. Of couse, the stock market represents free markets which ain’t what the socialists in charge have in mind!
Sisyphus on February 10 at 1:26 p.m.
Any evidence of that fraud? Or do you just wanna perpetuate a lie? Any evidence. Among other things that they do, ACORN rehabilitated 3500 houses in Louisiana post Katrina. FEMA is sitting on a gazillion toxic trailers and over $3 billion. Heckofa horse show Republicans can throw..
idawa, accumulating and connecting dots seems to be challenging for many on the right. I reckon if they were really upset about the direction of these funds they’d a paid more attention on the direction of the country and won an election.
Cabbage Boy on February 10 at 1:27 p.m.
“It’s time we rewarded work, instead of investment. It’s time for the workers to control the means of production.
;-) (that last line was for Cabbage.)”
Okay, I’ll bite. Uggh. Nobody is going to kiss a toad that turns into a socialist.
Aerie on February 10 at 1:30 p.m.
Sisyphus,
it is evident that you don’t know much about Acorn and their practices. In fact, much of the lower income housing problems that started this recession were caused by companies like Acorn that set up subprime mortgages for people that didn’t deserve them.
And aren’t many of those houses now falling down? That seems to be what socialism gets you.
toadman on February 10 at 1:31 p.m.
“Wouldn’t it be better to build a nuke plant than a dog park, soccer field or frisbee golf course?”
Why can’t we build both? Someone has to DO WORK to build the dog park, just like someone has to DO WORK to build the nuke plant.
It’s about work, and what we can get out of it, right?
And to Cabbage.. well, at least all things are equal when the frog is kissed, right?
;-)
Sisyphus on February 10 at 1:52 p.m.
Here’s some Republican bipartisanship for you.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/02/10/gop-group-gets-tough-against-republicans-who-support-stimulus/
And stocks plunged because Geitner had to report that Paulson’s $350 billion efforts to shore up the financial sector didn’t pan out.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 1:53 p.m.
Aerie it is evident that you get most of you misinformation from the likes of Fox News.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 1:56 p.m.
“much of the lower income housing problems that started this recession were caused by companies like Acorn that set up subprime mortgages for people that didn’t deserve them.”—need more evidence. Please.
I really love that story line the minorities created the financial crisis. Keep pushing that one. It should really help your new head of the RNC on his outreach.
Aerie on February 10 at 1:57 p.m.
Well, Sisyphus, maybe you didn’t notice that the stock market crashed because Geitner admitted that they have no plan and will just be burning the rest of the TARP funds with last autumn’s leaves in the back of the White House.
Aerie on February 10 at 2:00 p.m.
Here is all the evidence that Obama and Acorn are more to blame for the subprime mortgage crash than anyone possibly knew:
http://www.thenextright.com/ozarkguru/obama-acorn-root-causes-of-mortgage-crisis
toadman on February 10 at 2:01 p.m.
“Aerie it is evident that you get most of you misinformation from the likes of Fox News.”
But Sisy.. haven’t you heard? It’s the most fair and balanced political reporting out there!! Or maybe that’s “fear imbalance”.. I could have misunderstood what they were saying through all the snarling and the yelling and the frothing at the mouth.
Seriously though.. I dream of a day when Fox news AND MSNBC (yes! I know.), are taken off the air in favor of people who are more calm and collected and rational. The only talky news show I ever watch anymore is Anderson Cooper. He’s comforting (in a purely platonic way, you understand). The rest of them are way off balance and insane…absolutely bat$h!t nutso insane, really.
Kage_Mann on February 10 at 2:17 p.m.
If Acorn didn’t committ fraud, then why did the Nevada chapter of Acorn happen to sign-up 5 Dallas Cowboys, including Tony Romo.Let me guess, they moved? Or how about the fraud Acorn committed in nearly all the battle ground states.There is definately, a problem with this group.
As far as Fox news, at least they have differing opinions on their shows, as they routinely have democrats on. Do the other news shows do that? It’s highly doubtful.Liberals aren’t very tolerant of others opinions.
thawtfulreader on February 10 at 2:21 p.m.
“They hold that labor is prior to, and independent of, capital; that, in fact, capital is the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed; that labor can exist without capital, but that capital could never have existed without labor.
Hence they hold that labor is the superior – greatly the superior – of capital.”
Abraham Lincoln
Sept. 30, 1859
http://dig.lib.niu.edu/teachers/econ1-lincoln.html
Aerie on February 10 at 2:21 p.m.
All you have to do is read this blog to know that, Kage. Instead of addressing the issues, they attack Bush, or they play the race card. Why, even on this thread I noticed they play the pity the poor card as if were an instinct.
And for sure Fox shows a lot more moderate liberals than any other channel out there. Juan Williams is incredibly articulate and he makes some good points, now and then.
Nick_Adams on February 10 at 2:29 p.m.
Why, even on this thread, I noticed they play the blame the poor card as if on instinct.
Yeah, that’s the problem with our country, rich people just don’t have enough money.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 2:29 p.m.
I also long for Walter Cronkite, but Jim Lehrer will do.
Thanks Aerie for Exhibit A on the misinformation. That was hilarious. If you read Malkin enough you’ll start looking like her when she’s shrill. Your eyelids will never touch iris.
Now see Kage, that’s evidence. Faulty and easily disproven, but its evidence. Go look up fraud. Then go look up evidence. Then go look up voter fraud. Then cogitate your navel some more. Then try and determine how Micky Mouse can commit voter fraud if someone named Mickey Mouse doesn’t go vote. Republican + a little knowledge = the state of the country.
thawtfulreader on February 10 at 2:30 p.m.
“Aerie on February 10 at 2:00 p.m.
Here is all the evidence that Obama and Acorn are more to blame for the subprime mortgage crash than anyone possibly knew:
http://www.thenextright.com/ozarkguru…”
Too funny. A whacked out site without any facts which spells mortgage “motgage” right in a sub head.
Then the comments there COMPLETELY REFUTE the lies propagated in the “article”.
Some people never learn.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 2:40 p.m.
The Project on Excellence in Journalism report in 2006 showed that 68 percent of Fox cable stories contained personal opinions, as compared to MSNBC at 27 percent and CNN at 4 percent. The “content analysis” portion of their 2005 report also concluded that “Fox was measurably more one-sided than the other networks, and Fox journalists were more opinionated on the air.” Research has shown that there is a correlation between the presence of the Fox News Channel in cable markets and increases in Republican votes in those markets
http://stateofthemedia.com/2005/narrative_cabletv_contentanalysis.asp?cat=2&media=5
toadman on February 10 at 2:42 p.m.
“It’s highly doubtful.Liberals aren’t very tolerant of others opinions.”
You obviously haven’t ever watched Anderson Cooper. There’s usually a pretty vigorous, yet civil, debate.
Also, you must not watch much Hannity the Insanity. Talk about someone who isn’t tolerant of the opinions of others.
Unitarian pastor Chris Buice, who’s church was the target of a gunman, said:
“A man came in here [and] dehumanized us. Members of our church were not human to him. Where did he get that? Where did he get that sense that we’re not human? … When you hear in talk radio that liberals are evil, that they are traitors, that they are godless, that they are on the side of the terrorists – that’s hate language.”
Every time I listen to Limbaugh, or Hannity, that’s what I hear. The dehumanization of people like me. It’s disturbing.
Of course, liberals have their own problems. Clive Cook (Atlantic Monthly), Wrote: “The trouble is, they lack respect for the objects of their solicitude. Their sympathy comes mixed with disdain, and even contempt. Democrats regard their policies as self-evidently in the interests of the US working and middle classes. Yet those wide segments of US society keep helping to elect Republican presidents. How is one to account for this? Are those people idiots? Frankly, yes – or so many liberals are driven to conclude. Either that or bigots, clinging to guns, God, and white supremacy; or else pathetic dupes, ever at the disposal of Republican strategists… Voters in small towns and suburbs, forever mocked and condescended to by metropolitan liberals, are attuned to this disdain. Every four years, many take their revenge.”
I think that’s only a minimal offense at cut and paste, dave.
Joker on February 10 at 2:42 p.m.
The economy is smoldering in ruins. We need something. Will this big old pork bill work? Maybe. It’s worth a shot. I don’t hear the Republicans coming up with any ideas. They gave $750 billion to banks and it didn’t do jack.
It’s only money, we can print more!!!
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 2:46 p.m.
Sis >> ” And stocks plunged because Geitner had to report that Paulson’s $350 billion efforts to shore up the financial sector didn’t pan out.”
If you would look into that a little further, you might find out that Geithner was, in fact, an author of the Paulson package. He was the architect. Stocks plunged because the administration scheduled Geithner to offer his current plan and he failed to offer anything of substance. Wall Street despises uncertainty. Just more talk. Nobody knows what the ‘plan’ is. Just like Obama, lots of talk, no facts.
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 2:53 p.m.
idawa >>”Then again, hmo, like most repubs, appears to be a simple linear thinker who fails to see the connection between things.”
Yours is a strong argument but I just happen to see things a little differently than you do. Insofar as the economics are concerned.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 2:53 p.m.
Just like trolls all opinion, no google.
http://stateofthemedia.com/2005/narrative_cabletv_contentanalysis.asp?cat=2&media=5
Sisyphus on February 10 at 2:56 p.m.
Oops, that link should be.
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUKTRE5194OX20090210http://stateofthemedia.com/2005/narrative_cabletv_contentanalysis.asp?cat=2&media=5
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 3:03 p.m.
toad >> “Why can’t we build both? Someone has to DO WORK to build the dog park, just like someone has to DO WORK to build the nuke plant”
Here is the difference: When you finish the nuke plant, you can lower power costs to everybody and help our energy crisis. When you finish the soccer field. Its over. Except for the picking of the weeds. The road graders and shovel pushers are gone. A nuke plant would provide high paying jobs that would last a lifetime, not just a year or so.
Understand?
Sisyphus on February 10 at 3:04 p.m.
Gosh, I wonder if Dr. Doom’s analysis had anything to do with the market today.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aymIvb5MXx_g
Kage_Mann on February 10 at 3:05 p.m.
Even Joe Biden said: “That there is a 30% chance it won’t work”.When pressed at the news conference Obama claimed ignorance to any knowledge of the conversation he had with Joe Biden at the White House. Biden is the gift that keeps on giving.Biden made his statement during a speech to democrats about passing the stimulus bill.I’d say Joe was being honest, unlike Obama who all of a sudden can’t remember the conversation they’d had.Obama won’t admit, that the stimulus bill might not work.There is never any 100% degree of success in anything and he won’t admit that.I’m sorry, Sis.
You obviously haven’t ever watched AndersonCooper.toadman on February 10 at 2:42 p.m.
I watch AC 360 ,Lou Dobbs, Greta Van Susterun.Toadman,I used to think you were more fairminded in your opinions, but the last coupla weeks have disappointed me. On one comment you said that you hate republicans; that’s not being fairminded.
Let me guess, it was satire?
thawtfulreader on February 10 at 3:06 p.m.
“In fact, much of the lower income housing problems that started this recession were caused by companies like Acorn that set up subprime mortgages for people that didn’t deserve them.”
-Aerie.
Oh, in fact, eh? Wow. And then you back it up with some rightwing website? Gee, that’s SO authoritative!
Let’s see what a Wall Street Journal Columnist had to say about the issue:
“There is no way to measure the number of people who took out mortgages they knew they couldn’t afford, of course, but for what it’s worth, a 2007 report by the Mortgage Bankers Association reports that the FBI estimates “80 percent of all reported fraud losses arise from fraud for profit schemes that involve industry insiders.” That means the lenders, not the borrowers.
Just imagine the flights of fancy that the theory of borrower malevolence and Wall Street victimization requires conservatives to take: All these no-account folks, you see, got together and forced investment banks to engineer subprime mortgages into highly leveraged securities. Then they tricked all manner of hedge funds and pension funds and financial institutions into buying these lousy products. Just for good measure, these struggling homeowners then persuaded bond-rating agencies to misrepresent the risk associated with these securities.
…”
The GOP Blames the Victim
Capitalism sure is fragile if subprime borrowers can ruin it.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122282690823092989.html
–––––––––––-
Yep, a bunch of sub-prime loan recipient “monkees” as Rush would call them, conned each and every aspect of the financial system at each and every point, thus causing the biggest financial crisis since Hoover’s Great Depression. Right. That makes sense.
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 3:10 p.m.
thawtful >> “Hence they hold that labor is the superior – greatly the superior – of capital.”
Abraham Lincoln
Sept. 30, 1859
Uh, things changed. We had this little industrial revolution and invented motors, airplanes and stuff. Sort of changed the equation.
toadman on February 10 at 3:14 p.m.
“On one comment you said that you hate republicans”
What? I don’t ever remember writing this. I don’t toss the H bomb out there lightly. Link please.
Aerie on February 10 at 3:14 p.m.
Actually, it wasn’t the poor that caused it. It was the Democrats that cater to the poor, trying to buy their votes. Pretty unethical methods, methods that appear to be crashing down around their ears right at the point when they started to think they were in control. Good luck, Dems, you reap what you sow.
DFO on February 10 at 3:19 p.m.
Thawtful & Toad; your cut-and-paste posts are beginning to resemble the porkulus bill. Which isn’t good.
thawtfulreader on February 10 at 3:20 p.m.
We are in completely uncharted waters, economically. I give Obama’s plan at best a 50-50 chance of keeping us out of a serious depression. Derivatives are the financial black hole, and once they went from a few hundred billion in 2002, to several trillion by 2004, to, many trillion by 2008, well, there’s simply no way to predict what’s going to happen when and if that betting scheme unravels.
The Madoff Ponzi scheme is merely the tip of the iceberg.
toadman on February 10 at 3:21 p.m.
Seriously Kage, I would never say that I “hate” republicans. You have to have mis-read something. For me to say I “hate” republicans, is to say that I hate 99% of my entire extended family, and I don’t.
If you misunderstood something I said, then I’m sorry. I do not hate Republicans.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 3:21 p.m.
Kage, yes you are sorry. What is the Republican plan? What odds do economists give for that to be successful?
I’m listening to Dr. Doom and he says that the stimulus is a good first step but will likely need lots more spending. What do your economists say? Does Fox News interview economists or just people with unsubstantiated opinions? Cause I keep asking you guys to cite to an economist and nobody on your side seems to have one.
Kage_Mann on February 10 at 3:25 p.m.
“Democrats that cater to the poor, trying to buy their votes”.
Aerie, I agree. Part of the pork in the stimulus package, is democrats trying to pay back the unions etc.for their support.In
effect, trying to buy their votes for future elections.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 3:27 p.m.
What the cat got your Google aerie or are you still looking for evidence?
“your cut-and-paste posts are beginning to resemble the porkulus bill. Which isn’t good.”—what Dave you providing cover for the unarmed? I keep asking for proof and you’re giving an excuse not to provide it? C’mon this is supposed to be an exchange of information, not whatever pops into their little heads.
keithincda on February 10 at 3:39 p.m.
Hey Sis,
Do these 315 economists that disagree count?
http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus09/cato_stimulus.pdf
just askin…
Cabbage Boy on February 10 at 3:43 p.m.
Come on Keith, you know they have “consensus.”
Either that or YOUR facts are from disapproved sites.
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 3:48 p.m.
Thanks guys, (you know who you are) for giving me a little conservative support on the blog today. Sometimes, its lonely out there.
toadman on February 10 at 3:48 p.m.
It’s silly. I can find just as many people who agree as disagree with the package. None of it matters at this point. It passed. Now it’s just time to wait and see. I say we all stop complaining to each other and just give it a chance to either work, or not work, now that there’s not a darn thing we can do about it either way.
Kage_Mann on February 10 at 3:49 p.m.
toadman on February 05 at 9:39 a.m.
“Oh, and Republicans suck.”
They often do, just ask senator Craig.
If you misunderstood something I said, then I’m sorry.toadman on February 10 at 3:21 p.m.
Does your Feb.5 post sound hateful?
nic on February 10 at 3:50 p.m.
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 3:10 p.m.
thawtful >> “Hence they hold that labor is the superior – greatly the superior – of capital.”
Abraham Lincoln
Sept. 30, 1859
Uh, things changed. We had this little industrial revolution and invented motors, airplanes and stuff. Sort of changed the equation.
Um… who do you think builds the motors, airplanes and stuff? Labor? Oh wait…. Dang dirty robots. No wonder we have so many unemployed. I guess everybody should have invested in automation.
nic on February 10 at 3:51 p.m.
Kage… the suckage portion you quot Toad saying… that was someone else he was quoting. The Larry Craig jab was toad’s only original thought in that post.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 3:53 p.m.
Yes, Kieth! I bow to thee oh worthy adversary. Considering the libertarian CATO institute and its advocacy for deregulation has more blame for the current scope of the crisis than ACORN it no surprise they were able to cull 200 (there aren’t 315) economists to criticize Obama’s efforts, not one of whom were ever members of the Presidents Council of Economic Advisers of either party. Maybe those can be listed with the weather people against global warming.
Nick_Adams on February 10 at 3:53 p.m.
C’mon, Sis. You know that Kage and Aerie have nothing more than the same tired rhetoric and talking points issued daily from the angry old men. Asking for any kind of proof, facts, or anything else of substance from them is a waste of pixels.
Obama’s got a super-majority of Americans and the Senate agreeing with him on the need for the stimulus.
He’ll get a package. He’ll put it to work. Kage, Aerie and the rest will continue to nip at it, but with all the effectiveness of a rat terrier trying to take down one of Idaho’s glorious wolves.
Stop feeding them. Let’s just go straight to the mocking.
toadman on February 10 at 3:55 p.m.
“toadman on February 05 at 9:39 a.m.
“Oh, and Republicans suck.”
They often do, just ask senator Craig.
If you misunderstood something I said, then I’m sorry.toadman on February 10 at 3:21 p.m.
Does your Feb.5 post sound hateful?”
Ah. I see… here’s the deal.. where it says “Oh, and Republicans suck” is a quote from someone else. I was being cheeky with my reply “They often do, just ask senator Craig.” The underlying meaning was sexual, in nature…
I suppose it was a little off color, maybe bit hateful also.. and for that, I’m sorry. For what it’s worth, I would have said the same about any democrat.
Truce?
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 4:00 p.m.
nic >>”Um… who do you think builds the motors, airplanes and stuff? Labor? Oh wait…. Dang dirty robots. No wonder we have so many unemployed. I guess everybody should have invested in automation.”
Of course it is labor that builds the motors and airplanes. BUT when the motors and airplanes are built, they increase productivity and raise all boats. Create new industries, like automobiles, for example. Then, autos create new industries like motels, for example. Then, the motels need supplies and create a new business like linen mfgrs, for example. Etc, etc. Its called the multiplier effect. That is why the democrats have it wrong, Spending in not stimulus, regardless of what Obama says. Spending is just postponeing the inevitable. And then doing it all over again.
toadman on February 10 at 4:00 p.m.
“The Larry Craig jab was toad’s only original thought in that post.”
Nic speaks the truth. Toad rarely has any original thoughts.
;-)
But seriously, Kage, we may have fundamental disagreements on economic and social issues, but I still respect your opinion, when presented in a logical and civil manner…as I think most here do…
Not to bring someone else up, but Cabbage Boy and I have often gone head to head in a civil manner, and we can still trade friendly jabs….
…poor little vegetable headed dude that he is…
Sisyphus on February 10 at 4:02 p.m.
OK Nick. I’m sorry. Sometimes the rock compels me. Besides after successfully completing my filing deadline, I’m thirsty. Meet you at world headquarters.
MikeK on February 10 at 4:02 p.m.
Is there a Godwin’s law corollary for the word “ACORN”? If not, there should be. It can’t be a coincidence that the longer an online debate about Obama, economics, and elections goes on the more the likely it is that the word ACORN is going to get lit on fire and tossed onto the front porch.
And then the thread is no longer.
Nick_Adams on February 10 at 4:03 p.m.
Kage: Smarten up. The “Republicans suck” tag was mine. It was at the end of a long post about trying to be more civil and clearly tongue in cheek.
Toad’s use and then jab at Craig was certainly not hateful.
Keep trying, though. If you’re representative of the front line of conservative thought, liberals are going to blow by it like the Germans by the Maginot line.
thawtfulreader on February 10 at 4:07 p.m.
“hmoffsuite on February 10 at 3:10 p.m.
thawtful >> “Hence they hold that labor is the superior – greatly the superior – of capital.”
Abraham Lincoln
Sept. 30, 1859
Uh, things changed. We had this little industrial revolution and invented motors, airplanes and stuff. Sort of changed the equation.”
You do understand that Lincoln lived and was president DURING the industrial revolution, and that there were factories and machines and mills, some on a very great scale during that time.
The Industrial Revolution began far before Lincoln’s time, and continued, by most economic historians’ account, until the Information Revolution, beginning around 1980.
” I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.”
-Abraham Lincoln
Nov. 21, 1864
Nick_Adams on February 10 at 4:10 p.m.
Sounds good, Sis.
keithincda on February 10 at 4:11 p.m.
Sis,
You crack me up!
“not one of whom were ever members of the Presidents Council of Economic Advisers of either party”
duh! they’re for less government, why in the world would they want to work for “the Man”! ;0
I’m actually with Toad on this one…we got no choice but to either watch the boat float or watch the ship sink….
I’ll take the “I support the President but not his economic policy stance”..kind of like you “I support the troops but not the war” guys
nic on February 10 at 4:13 p.m.
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 3:03 p.m.
When you finish the soccer field. Its over. Except for the picking of the weeds. The road graders and shovel pushers are gone. A nuke plant would provide high paying jobs that would last a lifetime, not just a year or so.
Not entirely true, public grounds (like soccer fields) employ more than just the person that picks weeks. It also benefits the comunity that uses the field.
Numerous studies have shown that kids involved in team sports have a better sense of belonging, higher self-esteem, and greater character development. These kids are better prepared for school, have an increased ability to learn, and better prepared to enter the workforce. Not to mention it’s better for their health. (hooray for childhood obesity!)
If I had to choose between building a power plant or a soccer field, I’d opt for the soccer field. But I’m with toadman… why can’t we build both.
Sisyphus on February 10 at 4:16 p.m.
ooooookaaaaaay Keith, they certainly weren’t shy about their ivory tower credentials. They all seem to be feeding in the public trough. Not bad work if you can get by the hypocrisy. But fair enough on the wait and see. It ain’t passed the House yet though.
toadman on February 10 at 4:18 p.m.
“(hooray for childhood obesity!)” - nic
Hey man, the more they eat, the more food the parents have to buy, which means the store makes more money, which means it can buy more food to sell, which means the suppliers have to grow more, which means the supplier has to hire more illegal aliens….damn, the analogy just fell apart.
nic on February 10 at 4:19 p.m.
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 4:00 p.m.
Of course it is labor that builds the motors and airplanes. BUT when the motors and airplanes are built, they increase productivity and raise all boats. Create new industries, like automobiles, for example. Then, autos create new industries…
So, what you’re saying, hmo, is that in order to stimulate the economy, we should focus on labor over investment… for labor creates more labor - in turn stimulating growth.
I knew you could see it Obama’s way!
toadman on February 10 at 4:21 p.m.
“…they increase productivity and raise all boats.”
Is there a provision for boat building and subsequent lifting in this bill?
;-)
Kage_Mann on February 10 at 4:22 p.m.
Nick_Adams on February 10 at 4:03 p.m.
Kage: Smarten up. The “Republicans suck” tag was mine. It was at the end of a long post about trying to be more civil and clearly tongue in cheek.
Nick:good way to bring the parties together for a civil discussion by saying:”Republicans suck”.That little tongue in cheek, just guaranteed failure.May, I suggest a good book to curl up to at night:’How to win friends and influence people’.By
Dale Carnegie.
Sorry, if I misunderstood your comment toadman.
keithincda on February 10 at 4:25 p.m.
actually Toad there is… to get 3 Repub Senator votes a provision was inserted in the bill for building a berthing facilitiy for an as of yet to be built Coast Guard ship….really.
nic on February 10 at 4:26 p.m.
Kage_Mann on February 10 at 4:22 p.m.
May, I suggest a good book to curl up to at night:’How to win friends and influence people’.By Dale Carnegie.
I bet Dale Carnegie uses his space bar after puntuation.
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 4:32 p.m.
nic >> “Not entirely true, public grounds (like soccer fields) employ more than just the person that picks weeks. It also benefits the comunity that uses the field.”
I couldn’t agree more. I think parks, sports etc all great. I grew up in a City park when I was a kid. But, we are talking about the stimulus and spending to make the economy improve. As good as parks are, they should be built during the good times when money is more readily available. Not now. These are rather desperate times, hence the trillions of dollars being thrown around.
toadman on February 10 at 4:37 p.m.
“actually Toad there is… to get 3 Repub Senator votes a provision was inserted in the bill for building a berthing facilitiy for an as of yet to be built Coast Guard ship….really.”
HA!! Those crazy Repubs and their un-built Coast Guard Ships.
;-)
nic on February 10 at 4:45 p.m.
puntuation = punctuation
Kage_Mann on February 10 at 4:49 p.m.
No, Nic he’s dead. ;-)
nic on February 10 at 4:58 p.m.
hom “As good as parks are, they should be built during the good times when money is more readily available. Not now.”
Sorry, I’m just under the impression that our kids are the ones who are going to pay for this. If we’re going to spend like it’s 2012, we might as well do something to make our kids lives better. If enriching their lives now better prepares them to contribute to society, they will have a better, stronger, healthier economy than we do now.
Maybe that’s what’s wrong with the liberal agenda… always thinking about what’s going to benefit the long run, not just the here & now.
nic on February 10 at 4:59 p.m.
OK, Kage… That was funny. But I’m serious. The space bar is your friend.
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 5:02 p.m.
nic. Not arguing the long run benefits at all. Right now, we MUST be concerned wit the here and now. Take a look.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9ebea1b8-f794-11dd-81f7-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1
Arch_Druid on February 10 at 5:18 p.m.
I was listening to Senator Thune after the vote. He started listing what he called all the earmarks and pork. On the other hand, if there is no specific legislative district for the repairing of fire stations, doesn’t sound like an earmark, nor pork, and it sounds like employment for construction workers from here. Only now does Thune and etc. want transparency and accountability? Where were they at in the last 8 years? LOL!
hmoffsuite on February 10 at 5:27 p.m.
arch >> “Only now does Thune and etc. want transparency and accountability? Where were they at in the last 8 years? LOL!”
That was all going to CHANGE with Obama, as you will recall. That is what he promised in order to get elected. McCain said he would list every name associated with every expenditure. Where is Obama and his transparency? Was that just an empty campaign promise?
Cindy_H on February 10 at 6:07 p.m.
I confess I got a little bit lost in this thread with all the talk about packages, Larry Craig, stimulating growth, provisions being inserted, and sucking.
I thought we were talking about the economy.
But now I’m not so sure.
All I know is Bent is in DC and I’m hoping he’ll bring me a souvenir. Like my portion of the pork.
Bent on February 10 at 9:12 p.m.
Ha! Cindy, what great timing. I just plowed through 95 comments and came to yours. (i’ll pick you something up).
As for the stimulus bill, it’s not over. Not even close. If the house messes with the Senate bill, Sens. Snow, Collins and Specter will bail (coast guard facility or not). Then it’s no go…
It’s one hell of a show down.
Keith I saw that Cato advertisment, and it really comes down to whether an economist is comfortable with plowing into the uncharted territory of Keynesian “Theory.” And theory it is. If you follow the Keynesian attempt to pull Japan out of its “Lost Decade,” you will find that country waited too long to clean up the banking industry and to invest in job sectors other than construction, but once they did, they started seeing recovery. Same with social spending after the great depression, we didn’t pull out until we started spending on infrastucture jobs and the WWII efforts as well.
The problem is, in this situation, Keynesian Theory says to spend big and spend fast, However, most politicians are edgy about spending too much too fast. They want to wait and see if their first push helps…
Until a country grows the gumption to actually test the theory, it will remain a theory. Those who I’ve been talking with in DC fear we aren’t going to spend big enough fast enough. And sorry, while this appears partisan on the surface for the purpose of public debate, EVERYONE is worried about this regardless of their political leanings. You can’t sit in a coffee shop back here for more than 5 minutes without hearing the word stimulus…
Anyway, that is why the president’s team is spreading this thing like peanut butter across the economic spectrum.
Do unions benifit? Absolutely. Do the banks benefit? Absoluteley. Do local governments benefit? Darn right. Do teachers benefit? Sure. Do we get some new infrastructure? You betcha.
But, hey, that’s the idea. From a public policy standpoint, no one likes this. The thing is, we have to do something. I don’t see the Cato advertisement proposing any rock solid solutions. It’s because there isn’t one economist who knows what what to do right now…
Gotta love that Faith and Confidence system
thawtfulreader on February 11 at 12:30 a.m.
“Gotta love that Faith and Confidence system”
Exactly.
Better known as the con game.
Now supposedly backed by “The Full Faith and Credit” of the essentially bankrupt United States of America. If not bankrupt, in deep, crippling, budget busting debt for decades to come.