Firm Seeks To Guide Tubbs Hill Tours

79 comments on this post so far. Add yours!

• 

  Bob on February 18 at 7:29 a.m.

  God, no. What a mercenary idea, maybe I should open a concession to walk people around Manito Park and tell em what stuff is for $25 a shot. Offer a $150 special for ALL THE SPOKANE PARKS. Unreal.

  So, let’s say I’m walking around Tubbs Hills with some out of towners and I’m pointing stuff out like the Ponderosa Pine trees and their yellow pollen and the squirrels and how to best rotisserie them, and telling them the history of Mr. Tubbs and his illegal moonshine still and how he useta run white lightning up and down the lake and all of a sudden one of these concessionaires comes running over to me in their Gore Tex hiking pants and Patagonia soft shell jacket and Vasque hiking boots and starts shrieking HEY YOU CAN’T GIVE PEOPLE TOURS HERE WE ARE THE SOLE SOURCE PROVIDERS!

  I hope Mike Kennedy tells these yahoos to go give tours in Iran.

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  Charlie on February 18 at 7:57 a.m.

  A business venture that is doomed from the start, especially with $$$ as tight as they are.

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  hmoffsuite on February 18 at 7:58 a.m.

  I don’t know that I would pay the $25 but I certainly salute the entrepenurial spirit of these folks. Last year, my wife bought a book about Tubbs Hill at Art On The Green. I read it and was really quite amazed at the actual history and significance of Tubbs Hill. There is quite a story to tell there. Many other cities have walking tours and they seem to be a win/win for those that offer them and those that choose to take them.

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  nic on February 18 at 8:05 a.m.

  Why pay for something I can do for free?

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  JeanieSpokane on February 18 at 8:24 a.m.

  As a Spokanite, and half enamored with Tubbs Hill, I think it is tacky and takes away from the glamour that surrounds Tubbs Hill. First, I would be afraid of the natural history and beauty being damaged by tours. When I visited Stickman I was always aware of the majesty right in front of his driveway – even if it were the backside of Tubbs Hill – its amazing aura drew me like a temptress. If I lived in Coeur d’Alene, a very popular resort town that brings in people from all over the world, I would want to keep some things as pristine as possible. I might even want to keep Tubbs Hill the community’s little secret.

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  Joker on February 18 at 8:28 a.m.

  Terrible idea. It’s a public park. What’s next, a coffee stand or a hotdog vendor?

  If they city wants to give guided free guided tours — great. It would enhance the experience of walking the trails.

  One of the biggest flaws is logistically, how do they stop the average Joe from joining the tour and listening? Answer: You can’t unless you limit the public in some way. That defeats the whole purpose of a public park.

  Nice try guys, next!

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  Charlie on February 18 at 8:32 a.m.

  Maybe Stickman should set up a toll gate at the entrance, could make a few bucks.

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  MamaJD on February 18 at 8:48 a.m.

  So I’m the only one? Yep — I would consider going on a guided walking tour of Tubbs Hill and then kayak on the lake. IF the tour offered information about Tubbs Hill that wasn’t obvious. If the guide was able to provide an educational/informational aspect to Tubbs Hill, say like what Stickman would do if I walked with him around Tubbs, then I think it would be worth it. If the information I gained from that tour helped deepen my enjoyment of Tubbs Hill, then yes — I would pay for that tour. It’s too bad the Friends of Tubbs don’t do this more often.

• 

  MikeK on February 18 at 9:24 a.m.

  This is being vetted through all the appropriate city channels, as any idea like it should be (Parks and Rec, Gen. Svcs., involving interested parties like the Tubbs Hill Foundation). It was my initial understanding when I first heard about it that ROW was planning to allocate a portion of the money to Tubbs Hill maintenance, etc., maybe through the Tubbs Hill Foundation. Peter Grubb and Betsy Bowen of ROW are committed and proven conservationists, and I’m sure they’d be very sensitive to protecting and preserving the area.

  I’m open minded about it, we’ll hear what General Services Committee has to say and then if it comes to the Council we’ll talk it about it and see how it goes. I agree with Scott Cranston, though, that proper procedure would have to be followed and have an RFP process opened up for this sort of thing, even though I’ve never heard of anyone else considering the idea before. I agree that I would hope that folks like the Stickman and his lovely lady who have done so much to care for and protect Tubbs Hill would weigh in, too.

• 

  Joker on February 18 at 9:54 a.m.

  MikeK,

  I think you may have acciddentally stepped in it when you said
  “Peter Grubb and Betsy Bowen of ROW are committed and proven conservationists, and I’m sure they’d be very sensitive to protecting and preserving the area.”
  “I’m open-minded about it.”

  While your open mindedness may be true, the proceeding sentence gives the impression you like Grubb and Bowen and that your mind is already made up on this issue.

  It made me think you’re going to give them an approval based on what you said. Maybe I am the only one who thought that, but it raised my eyebrows.

  Also, most cities have rules for city council people about discussing an issue before the official hearing. Maybe that doesn’t apply in Idaho. I’ve found a lot of “normal” rules aren’t even on the books.

• 

  MamaJD on February 18 at 10:10 a.m.

  One could only take that view if they are wearing a tinfoil hat with their good ol’boy glasses on.

  It is good to know that a public official will come out and state that it is possible that a private venture on public land isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I read Mike’s comments to state an opinion about a business owner’s reputation. Not to publicly state he’s made his mind up.

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  Transplanted_Texan on February 18 at 10:31 a.m.

  Of course not, but the kayaking part sounds fun. Probably get more time for less money with a straight-up rental, though.

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  florined on February 18 at 10:36 a.m.

  hmmm, Joker, isn’t it important to consider the full statement? Seems like it’s quite possible to be open-minded about a concept, (limited, conservation-sensitive tours of a public park) without assuming a vote would be “yes” regardless of what other aspect might come into play? In a “yes, but…” thought, (in this case, “yes I’m open to the concept, but…” it’s necessary to hear the “but” part, in this case, the insistence on appropriate process, full RFP to open the concept to all bidders, etc, before making any kind of decision, including the quite possible decision to not allow it at all.

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  Joker on February 18 at 10:51 a.m.

  MamaJD, I am not sure the implying that I am a tinfoil hat guy who wears good ole’ boy glasses is the in the spirit of a kinder, gentler blog. I’ve put the nuke keys in a safe, but I still have the combination to forementioned safe.

  I am sure you were just defending MikeK, which is fine, he seems like a really nice guy. But I’ve been discouraged from planting nasty language or put downs in my posts by DFO. So, I’d appreciate it you would do the same.

  I was just pointing a possible bias (probably unintentional). I said he might have stepped in it, not blown his foot off. The appearance of bias can be just as real as if there were actual bias.

  Maybe we can get a person with legal experience to clarify these issues.

  The problem with private public partnerships is that somebody gets left out in the cold. Government is there to establish and enforce a series of rules for everybody. When you start buddying up to businesses, it opens the door for all sorts of corruption. It doesn’t just happen in big places like Chicago.

• 

  GaryIngram on February 18 at 11:30 a.m.

  My fellow, free enterprise motivated, libertarian bent, conservative and liberal bloggers, why would you care?

• 

  Arpie on February 18 at 11:36 a.m.

  Rubes in the Wilderness. I love the idea. Maybe the guides will help cut down on the defecating in the woods. I’ll bet Duane is furious he didn’t think of this first.

• 

  MikeK on February 18 at 11:39 a.m.

  I do know Peter Grubb and Betsy Bowen of ROW. This is a small town - there are a lot of people I know who come with some kind of business before the council. I should note that they haven’t called me about this or asked for support - it’s going through the process, as I’ve said.

  Knowing lots of people is part of doing the job of city council. Yes I think Peter Grubb and Betsy Bowen are committed conservationists and yes I like them. Yes I’m also open-minded on this. For what it’s worth there have been people I like whose projects I’ve voted against over the last three years. There have also been people I don’t like whose projects I’ve voted in favor of. It’s a mixed bag, and sometimes people don’t like me as much after the vote - bummer but that’s also part of the job. But no I haven’t made up my mind on this - I don’t know enough about it - all I actually know is what someone on the Tubbs Hill Foundation told me and what I read in the newspaper.

  What was it LBJ said - political courage is the ability to drink someone’s whiskey, dance with their lady, and then vote against them anyway? Something like that.

• 

  Joker on February 18 at 11:47 a.m.

  MikeK,

  I appreciate your answer and your conviction.

  I am not sure it’s wise to put all those thoughts out there. Seems like you might be providing evidence for a legal challenge, if this thing goes through. This proposal is sure to bring a firestorm of opposition to City Hall.

  I think you’re brave, just remember the armies of mordor are always lurking.

• 

  MikeK on February 18 at 11:49 a.m.

  Here’s a sincere question for folks that I might wrestle with on the last part of joker’s earlier comment regarding this topic - Tubbs Hill is a city park, basically, just as other city owned facilities are.

  If giving paid tours on Tubbs Hill shouldn’t be permitted (again, I’m open-minded and I don’t know how it will come out) should we no longer permit for-profit softball tournaments on city fields if they go through the application process just as anyone else would? Should we not allow city streets to be closed down for street fairs and food fairs because the vendors make money even though they are regulated and pay a fee for clean-up and maintenance? Is Tubbs Hill sufficiently different from those places that it should be held above and outside any kind of commerce? These are legitimate comparisons and they are the types of things I tend to think about when something new, different, or potentially controversial comes before me on council.

  Many things appear black and white at first, but there are always shades of gray and things to contemplate before closing one’s mind to one idea or another.

• 

  MamaJD on February 18 at 11:50 a.m.

  It’s not a public/private partnership. It’s a request to offer private guided tours on park land, Joker. A business wants to offer a service no one else is offering and they are going through the proper channels to do so. ONE City Councilman has stated he is willing to consider this idea from the reputable business. What’s the problem? If you can find a person with legal experience to tell you that this isn’t a mountain out of a molehill, then more power to you.

  Thanks for not using the keys to your nuclear option. Would hate to see you follow through on your threat if it wasn’t necessary. Man, Joker … thin skin or what? No need to threaten to go nuclear.

• 

  MikeK on February 18 at 11:55 a.m.

  Joker if I’m not supposed to be talking about this I’ll be properly drawn and quartered by the legal department. I don’t think I’ve gone any further than my colleague John Bruning did in Alison’s story this morning, or other people do when asked about things on the street. There’s a difference between quasi-judicial matters that come before us (no talking, no contact on them while they’re pending) and legislative matters (talk all you want, get as much feedback as you can).

  I think this would be a legislative matter because it would be opened up to other interested entities, as Parks and Rec Chairman Scott Cranston suggested. But hey, I’m not a lawyer - that’s why I try to get legal counsel from smart barrister Moms I meet on blogs. :-)

• 

  MikeK on February 18 at 12:05 p.m.

  Now that I think about it - an important thing here has gone unremarked upon… has anyone noticed that this issue brought Bob and the Joker together in harmonious convergence on the same side of an issue?

  And who said I’m not all about Kumbaya?

• 

  Joker on February 18 at 12:07 p.m.

  Mike,

  I believe Tubbs Hill is unique to Coeur d’Alene. There are lots of streets, and softball fields. Close one down for a few hours, no biggie.

  Tubbs Hill also represents untouched nature. Throwing a business element into the picture feels very wrong.

  I think anybody on CIty Council who sides with the business is playing with political dynamite regardless with how great the people are behind said business.are.

  Maybe you’ve got a force field to protect you from such a blast, in which case, No worries.

  MamaJD,

  No I don’t have thin skin. I am just trying to abide by the new rules. I learned how a few jabs can escalte into a full war in a matter of days, or hours.

• 

  DFO on February 18 at 12:08 p.m.

  I don’t want to drive this superb thread onto a rabbit trail. But I’ve been amused by the possibility of a new nickname for Councilman MikeK. I can’t remember, however, whether he has six kids or seven now. If the latter, then couldn’t we call him Septo-Dad … sorta like Octo-Mom? Now, you know the cuh-razy thoughts that go through my head when I have a little time to think here.

• 

  MikeK on February 18 at 12:18 p.m.

  Joker I’m expecting to hear that opinion expressed from others. What might be a surprise, though, is that I’ve already heard from a couple of the biggest Tubbs Hill supporters I know (who were present and involved when Tubbs was saved from private development) who think this is a good idea and potentially a good way to thoughtfully and carefully promote the very special piece of land. As I said, there are always going to be shades of grey and I’m looking forward to hearing it all.

  DFO - I think maybe you need a little more time to think. Septo-Dad? Is that your “A” game? It makes me think of Pepto-Bismol, which is a staple in our home. Kids loooooove the chalky pink taste and the vague smell of puke that it evokes - not. FWIW, young Ronan (or ‘Bing’ as some of the kids are calling him) is Numero Seveno. And he’s looking mahvelous these days.

• 

  Bob on February 18 at 12:39 p.m.

  “has anyone noticed that this issue brought Bob and the Joker together in harmonious convergence on the same side of an issue?”

  Yes MikeK, I did notice that Joker followed by lead.

• 

  Bob on February 18 at 12:39 p.m.

  by = my

  Please give us a preview function. Please.

• 

  idawa on February 18 at 12:55 p.m.

  Personally, I wouldn’t pay, and I think it would be a nuisance. I used to run on Tubbs nearly everyday and would have been perturbed to have been stuck behind a large crowd of looky-loos trampling all over the hill. I also had a friend who proposed to his wife on Tubbs, I can’t imagine how the moment would have been ruined if a throng of people came traipsing through.

  That said, I, for one, have gone on many walking tours in cities I’ve been in (either those you do yourself as suggested by travel books like Rick Steves or those that I’ve paid for), so I won’t begrudge anyone that pleasure. If it is a legitimate business and they won’t distract from the public’s use of the hill, than I don’t see much legitimate opposition other than personal preference.

• 

  Walkabout on February 18 at 1:32 p.m.

  I’m the “lovely lady” that MikeK mentioned earlier. I hardly ever toot my own horn but here it goes. I work hard year round to keep Tubbs Hill the jewel that it is. I pick up glass, garbage, and I search out the hidden drinking areas. The most fun part I pick up other people’s doggie poo. Last summer I was given by the Tubbs Hill foundation and blogger Don Sausser 7500 dog poo bags. Guess what? I am already down to my last 2000. I know I have missed a few, it is winter and I don’t have a poo detector or a pick axe. Anyway, Tubbs Hill is nothing like the other parks in town. In no other park will I meet fellow volunteers cleaning up like I did just the other day. They had two trash bags full plus they hauled out a huge piece of foam. When was the last time any of you carried a microwave off of Tubbs Hill that had been dumped off a cliff? My point is that Tubbs Hill stays the treasure that it is because some people care enough to volunteer their time and energy to keep it that way. Tubbs Hill doesn’t need a promoter it needs a few extra pairs of hands.

  You can walk or kayak around Tubbs Hill without the need to advertise or profit from it.

• 

  DFO on February 18 at 1:46 p.m.

  Welcome, Walkabout; and thank you for the hard work keeping Tubbs Hill the viewtiful natural area that it is.

• 

  Transplanted_Texan on February 18 at 2:36 p.m.

  I feel like this is more the day’s wild card now then the wild card…

• 

  florined on February 18 at 3:43 p.m.

  geezzz…consider all the valid “yes, but’s” that are coming up. Mike, I hadn’t immediately considered the “yes, but” you mentioned: the commercial use of other city-owned parks, streets, etc. After all, Iron Man is a for-profit organization, for example. Then comes Joker, saying, “Yes, but…Tubbs is unique in its offering of a quality that can’t be replaced. Tired street surfaces can be resurfaced; overused natural areas can’t be “replaced” in our lifetime.” Then Walkabout comes in with equally valid “yeah, but am I, as a volunteer, spending hours hauling out trash and dog poop, so that somebody else can make money?”

  Sidebar: maybe, if something like paid tours comes about, all participants would be provided with trash bags and part of the tour is picking up trash.

• 

  Joker on February 18 at 4:40 p.m.

  Thanks Walkabout. I appreciate your clean up efforts. I hate people who let their dogs crap all over the place and fail to pick it up. And don’t get me started about the smokers and their disgusting butts.

• 

  Joker on February 18 at 4:56 p.m.

  Flor,

  The Ironman course doesn’t include Tubbs Hill. I think it would be impossible for the city to regulate this business and the business would have a devil of a time limiting access to Tubbs Hill during their walks.

  I give these guys credit for being creative, but in the end, it won’t get the blessing of city hall.

• 

  hmoffsuite on February 18 at 5:14 p.m.

  The story mentions that they would have groups of up to 14 people. You folks make it sound like it is 100. 14 folks in a group would be insignificant to the hill in the real scheme of things. I trust those offering the guided walks would be responsible to the grounds and others using the hill. Lighten up and let an enterprise have a shot. If it isn’t something that people would like to do, then the business would not survive. And, perhaps a buck a head or similiar contribution could be made to the friends of Tubbs Hill for other conservation purposes or cleanup.

• 

  chatterbox on February 18 at 7:19 p.m.

  I know I’m late to the party on this topic, but if I may… I’d like to plug Scott Reed’s book about Tubbs Hill called The Treasure Called Tubbs Hill. It is a slim volume, an easy read…jam packed with history and facts about Tubbs Hill. I bought my copy at the Library’s book store for $10. All proceeds benefit the Tubbs Hill Foundation. (Mr. Reed even autographed mine :-).

• 

  hmoffsuite on February 18 at 7:25 p.m.

  chatterbox. Thank you. I mentioned the book in a post way above but didn’t have the title in my memory. We had our copy signed as well. :)

• 

  Escapee on February 18 at 7:57 p.m.

  Isn’t there a sign at either end of the Tubbs Hill Trail that MAPS OUT all the different trails? You can get your directions there, and then start walking. That way, you save $25. What will they think of next? Tours which take people on walking excursions through malls and shopping centers?

• 

  GaryIngram on February 18 at 8:02 p.m.

  Dave, re your 12;08 post about crazy thoughts, etc. One of my daughters’ sayings is, “Now and again I think about things….And then I think, Wow, there is a lot to think about.”

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  maryg on March 11 at 5:50 p.m.

  I think it is not a good idea to commercialize Tubbs Hill. We spend our summers at CDA Lake. Tubbs Hill is already very crowded.

  Let people hike it who want to, for free. Tubbs Hill is not lacking for visitors.

  It should not be turned into a “for profit” hill. This will also impact nature by having all these tourists traipsing over Tubbs Hill.

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