Huckleberries Online

Ledford: It’s Not Education, It’s Sin

Posted by DFO

Feb. 27, 2009 8:53 a.m. • 67 comments

We need to admit that no matter how much we educate ourselves, we will still have crime, and no matter how good we get at dispelling ignorance, we will not be able to change human nature. In short, we need to admit the existence of sin. Sin is not a popular word, but ignorance is inadequate to describe how we act. Even when we are informed, communicating well and are aware of the consequences, we still choose to do wrong/Benjamin Ledford, UI Argonaut. More here.

Question: Do you believe in the concept of sin?

67 comments on this post so far. Add yours!

Aliasjax on February 27 at 9:01 a.m.
No.
Kage_Mann on February 27 at 9:08 a.m.
To answer no to this question is committing the sin of ignorance. ;-p
Aliasjax on February 27 at 9:15 a.m.
Ignorance is a sin??? Wow…I’m afraid that’s not good news (pun intended) for a lot of believers.
JeanC on February 27 at 9:31 a.m.
Nope.
idawa on February 27 at 9:47 a.m.
No, the concept of sin requires belief in a deity that has established “rules” that we can break and that we have some deep seeded desire to break. It is possible that we merely have self interests and some skewed perceptions which can lead to bad actions, but that does not equate to having sin. Society and law can exist without a notion of some deity.
Kage_Mann on February 27 at 10:03 a.m.
Only people with a guilty conscience would say they don’t believe in the concept of sin.
DFO on February 27 at 10:04 a.m.
Idawa; if there is no Deity or sin, where does all the evil evident in mankind universal come from?
idawa on February 27 at 10:15 a.m.
speaking of ignorant statements…anyway…

To DFO question, have you ever seen the playground at an elementary school? People do bad things to other people all the time, without sin. We have self interests and some people have conflicting values and skewed perceptions that can lead to actions that are evil and wrong for society, but those motivation have rational explanation outside of sin.

For example, there are many reason why murder is wrong and evil without having needing a deity to tell you as such. From the last census, nearly a 1/3 of American’s don’t believe in any organized religion and nearly 15% of Americans don’t believe in any diety what so ever. Those 15% do not act lawlessly and they have notions of right and wrong without religious belief.
Cabbage Boy on February 27 at 10:32 a.m.
DFO, didn’t your mama teach not to try and have a rational discussion with someone who has rationalized away God. :)
Charlie on February 27 at 10:36 a.m.
an act regarded as a serious fault, offense or omission..

That is my dictionaries definition of sin so I would say Yes to the question. There is nothing in my definition concerning a deity, but I believe there is a higher authority than man. There are to many things in this world that evolution cannot answer.
Anyway, I believe in sin and sin has many faces and shapes.
Kage_Mann on February 27 at 10:47 a.m.
“We have self interests and some people have conflicting values and skewed perceptions that can lead to actions that are evil and wrong for society, but those motivation have rational explanation outside of sin”.

I hope my neighbors don’t think this way.There is the ten commandments.
nic on February 27 at 10:52 a.m.
Kage, would you consider bearing false witness a sin?
idawa on February 27 at 11:02 a.m.
Well CB, you also can’t have an intelligent discussion with those who have stopped questioning either…and, FYI, I didn’t see anyone on this blog, thus far, who has rationalized away the possibility of god…
Arch_Druid on February 27 at 11:05 a.m.
Got a question for everyone: Would you stone your wife to death if she became another man’s mistress? Or say, would you stone your fiance to death and invite your neighbors to do the same if she had an affair with a friend of yours? According to the bible, yes. Now how about American law? Would American law accept biblical justice or would American law regard such an act of “justice” as a crime?

“Sin” can only be defined in one way, socially or morally—as a criminal act. How people choose to define crime and punishment is going to vary with the society and the culture of the people.

In that way, I have to give a real belly laugh when people take out of context scriptures from the bible to declare that our laws are based on biblical morality. As you can see above, a biblical response to a criminal act of adultery is not how we would treat it today. Instead, we take these matters to a divorce court or to family counseling. As the wiser and most legal course to follow.
Cabbage Boy on February 27 at 11:11 a.m.
Arch, you’ve stretched your logic past the point of being ludicrous.

I know anything Biblical has to be smitten in your world, but sometime you can’t stretch it that far.

Idawa, I haven’t stopped questioning. Did you notice the :) ?

Just as you claim there are many ways to explain crime and evil without sin, I too can say that there are many ways to show that crime and evil is a result of sin. Not always our own, but in children who can’t fully understand right and wrong, it may be the sin of the parent.
Kage_Mann on February 27 at 11:17 a.m.
Nic, The Ninth Commandment reads:

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Arch_Druid on February 27 at 11:22 a.m.
Bible smiting Cabbage Boy? A person demonstrates that every culture is going to have a different response to “sin”=crime. And we are going to call it a crime to murder a woman by stoning her to death for an act of adultery even if the bible is morally OK with it. And you call it bible smiting. (Rolls eyes here.) I quite frankly wonder if you know what society you live in?

We are still going to call adultery exactly what it is a “sin”=crime. But our reaction to it will be considerably different to the one that the bible mandated for it. As I described in the above post. Too bad you went off the deep end on this.
Aliasjax on February 27 at 11:22 a.m.
DFO: “Evil” and “sin” are cultural constructs, fabricated out of whole cloth…narratives, born of naivety, that attempt to explain the inexplicable. They aren’t “real” in the sense they exist outside of our abstractions…there is no such thing as “evil” there are only acts which Man deems evil from their culturally created viewpoint.

Idawa’s right, I think, to imply that people who stopped asking questions about our origin, purpose and destiny once satified with answers imagined 2000-6000 years ago by a bunch of warring, nomadic tribespeople are a bigger obstacle to open discussion than those of us who do.
Arch_Druid on February 27 at 11:23 a.m.
Kage Mann, in American law, it is called perjury.
nic on February 27 at 11:25 a.m.
That’s funny Kage…

DFO at 11:59 a.m. on February 24 on HBO
“I appreciate this photo b/c it shows a lighter side to Coeur d’Alene Press columnist Mary Souza. Here, I believe, she’s at a Margaritaville section of Las Vegas in December. That’s a parrot on Mary’s head. I’m told that Mary’s costume was one of the tamer ones at Margaritaville on that day. Why do I show you this? I want you to know that costumes are acceptable at Blogfest ‘09.”

Comment by kageman — February 24, 2009 @ 2:34 pm on OpenCDA
“Mary, this isn’t the type of response a certain moderator at HBO was trying to elicit.He was trying to get your goat or make you mad.A commenter from HBO emailed a picture to him last month.Anyway, ya stole his thunder and too bad he has to use a picture of you to put in a thread, so he try to get more hits on his blogsite.”

You must not consider Dave a neighbor.
nic on February 27 at 11:29 a.m.
Arch, check out the biblical concepts of binding and loosing.

Perhaps, at some point in history, Christians decided that it wasn’t OK to stone a cheating spouce, and they determined (bound) that act of stoning would be a “sin.”
Arch_Druid on February 27 at 11:32 a.m.
That was what I was HOPING for as an answer. THANK YOU Nic.
DFO on February 27 at 11:33 a.m.
Nic; thanx. Another commenter here alerted me to Kage’s post on the OpenCDA site. Kage isn’t much of a double agent b/c he doesn’t hide his tracks well. But I’m sorta fond of the big lug — even when he’s kicking me in the groin elsewhere. If he comes to blogfest, I’ll sick JBelle on him.
nic on February 27 at 11:39 a.m.
Joan, I know that you don’t have any faith in biblical Christian teaching, but I also know you find some worth in the Bible. I also know you KNOW what it says. I’m careful (or at least try to be) when discussing such topics with you.
toadman on February 27 at 11:46 a.m.
“Question: Do you believe in the concept of sin?”

This is a difficult question. I can’t really answer it, even though I’m an agnostic.

To me, the word “sin” comes laden with too much religious baggage to be a useful term in any honest discussion, anyway. I’d rather use the terms, right, and wrong, or good and evil. Is it wrong to smoke pot? I don’t believe it is. Is it wrong to smoke pot, then go drive a car in to a crowded marketplace killing several people? I believe it is. If a *sin* has to be defined as something immoral, then I suppose the latter would be a sin, as I personally believe senseless killing to be immoral.

So, for me, it’s more complex than the simplified definition of moral vs. immoral or sin vs. *not sin.*

I’d write more, but I have to run away this afternoon. Later all!
Kage_Mann on February 27 at 11:49 a.m.
Why do I show you this? I want you to know that costumes are acceptable at Blogfest ‘09.”

Nic,if you believe DFO’s explanation your more gullible than I thought you were.Admit it, he was trying to humiliate her and get her goat. Sorry, nice try.

I don’t try to hide my tracks and I’m not trying to kick anyone one in the groin. DFO, I seen the post your talking about and that commenter threatened me IMO.
DFO on February 27 at 11:57 a.m.
Kage; you’re a remarkable individual. You bring your far-right ideology and a chip on your shoulder to Huckleberries — and continue to be received well. You took a swipe at JBelle yesterday, and I let it go. Obviously, you’ve noticed that I have taken steps to calm things down here of late — so there’s at least one blog site in town where individuals can go without being insulted. You probably can get away with insulting me — depending on my mood, of course. But I’d prefer that you lose the attitude and become part of the extended HBO family.
Kage_Mann on February 27 at 12:11 p.m.
Nic, I consider everyone a neighbor, especially Dave. ;-)
Arch_Druid on February 27 at 12:19 p.m.
Yeah, Nic, I am quite familiar with the bible. I have a few around and can go refer to them at any time. I also have other religious works around that if I need to can refer to them as well. I do feel that the bible has worth. What I do not regard as worthy is any attempt by latter day “Christians” to politicize its contents. That is why I tend to bring up biblical scripture, what its varied authors had to say at any time and proceed to compare that to today’s society. At some point, concepts of crime and sin did change.

Just now tuned in to CNN, and with reference to Obama’s plans to carry out the draw down of troops out of Iraq. Even though according to Senator McCain, it will still leave 50,000 troops in place. Michael Ware’s suffering a complete panic attack at the idea that a SOVEREIGN nation such as Iraq may have to take more responsibility for its future. If we are a democracy, then no we can’t dictate that nation’s future. Not necessarily is it two different threads combined in one. Is there a moral element in a democracy imposing a democracy on a foreign nation? Is there a moral element in declaring sovereignty for that nation then remaining as an occupying force? And the justification is, that we can’t leave yet because… But with reference to Afghanistan and Pakistan what was FEARED in Iraq came true in those two countries.

So, define sin.
nic on February 27 at 12:42 p.m.
Kage, between DFO’s word and Mary’s… I trust Dave’s a whole lot more. That has nothing to do with being gullible. It’s a matter of a track record.
jreighley on February 27 at 1:26 p.m.
Yes, Sin is when we do what we know is wrong. All of us Sin.

Sin is ratification of a lie. Choosing to live in a way that is destructive. I know what is good and right, but I am going to indulge in a more temporal desire instead.

So weather you believe in God or not, I doubt you could honestly argue that you do not sin. You do things that you know are not good. Most everything in this world that you don’t like can be attributed to somebody’s sin.

Each of us are one of 6 billion people, but most of us are pretty comfortable ignoring 5,999,999,999 of our fellow humans, give or take a few. At least most of the time. We care more about our standard of living that we do our neighbor’s living.

We want justice for the criminal, but mercy for ourselves.

Every one of us is Selfish.

And we are ungrateful. None of us did one thing to deserve the wonderful life that we have been given. It is an absolute and total gift. In spite of the fact that we did nothing to deserve life, we see it as great injustice that that this life ends.

The irony is that those who say that they don’t believe in sin, are always happy to point out how sinful the rest of us are even though they claim that there is no such thing as sin.

They know what they believe is right - but they act otherwise.
Cabbage Boy on February 27 at 1:56 p.m.
Arch, I used smitten just to tie in the “Biblical” theme. Your history here is to pounce on anything related to Christianity and display your interpretation of how the Bible is wrong. But then you use this line,

“have to give a real belly laugh when people take out of context scriptures from the bible to declare…”

Doesn’t that strike you as a bit ironic?

And I will probably wager 2000 years of people much smarter than you or me might have a bit to say on the subject. I have read it all, but that doesn’t make me an expert on it.
Escapee on February 27 at 6:16 p.m.
Do I believe in the concept of Sin? You betcha. Sin happens whenever we violate our consciences. We know what’s right and wrong, and we choose to do wrong anyway. Skeletons in the closet are the byproducts of sin. Whether you believe in God or Not, unless you’re some kind of pathological so-and-so without any conscience, You Know when you’ve done wrong. And You Know that you’ve Sinned.
LukeB on February 28 at 7:58 a.m.
No. People do “bad things” because people are just as much animals as a warring tribe of chimpanzees. But with better wepons.

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D.F. Oliveria is a columnist and blogger for The Spokesman-Review. Huckleberries Online was judged the best 2008 Idaho newspaper blog by the Idaho Press Club. And the best 2007 news blog in the Pacific Northwest by the Society for Professional Journalist. Print Huckleberries is a past winner of the Herb Caen Memorial Column contest by the National Association of Newspaper Columnists. The Readership Institute of Northwestern University cited this blog as a good example of online community journalism.