IVA: No Justification For Tiller Murder

47 comments on this post so far. Add yours!

• 

  Arch_Druid on June 01 at 10:01 a.m.

  Nice of Bryan Fischer to acknowledge that. “Christians” can’t be true to scripture if they go around butchering abortion providing doctors. However, Fischer isn’t true to scripture either, as he goes around passing judgment on doctors such as Tiller, who “commit heinous crimes” under the color of law. After all, that passing of judgment is the first step to allowing violence to occur.

  And the first step that Fischer should be taking isn’t to insist that any SCOTUS appointee meet some religious test before taking his or her seat on the bench. The first step that Fischer should be taking is picking up a bible and reading it through, then living by what it teaches.

  Only through righteousness, can “Christians” be pro-life. There is nothing righteous in passing judgment, destroying property and taking lives.

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  ShoshoneConservative on June 01 at 10:18 a.m.

  I think, for the most part, the condemnations of the killing are sincere. As I posted on my own blog, Christian decency dictates that we hope he saw the errors of his ways and repented in his last moments (though, that is unlikely), and that we should not pass judgment, or, even worse, hope that he is in Hell. Moreover, “do no evil that good may come” is a central Christian precept.

  For the more cynical out there, looking at it from a strictly rational point of view, the pro-life groups would be condemning the killing because it is likely to have a negative backlash. The pro-abortion cause now has a martyr, and this will be the perfect excuse to crack down on anti-abortion protests. Just as the assassination of Abraham Lincoln did not benefit the South, and as the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich did not benefit the Czechs (I know I am exaggerating a bit now), the murder of George Tiller will not benefit the pro-life movement in the least. The gunman, likely, stopped a few abortions by killing Tiller. However, now, how many more abortions will be performed due to the renewal of the stereotype in the mind of the otherwise-indifferent public of the pro-lifer as a raging, violent lunatic?

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  scootermom on June 01 at 10:25 a.m.

  Fisher is leaving Idaho! And going to Mississippi.

  That’s the most family friendly thing he’s ever done for Idaho.

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  Phaedrus on June 01 at 10:25 a.m.

  I am sure that many people who are opposed to the legal medical procedure of abortion are not supportive of the illegal murder of this medical professional. But, no, I do not really believe that organizations like Mr. Fischer’s IVA and Mr. Terry’s Operation Rescue are truly sincere, after all it is the hateful rhetoric of these groups that incites the lunatics who commit such acts. And they know it.

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  Arch_Druid on June 01 at 10:45 a.m.

  The same groups Phaedrus who passed around cartoons advocating the deaths of doctors by “gun wielding fetuses.” Yeah, right.

  Christian decency is only possible Shoshone Conservative in one way. Do Christians follow the teachings of Christ or not? Christ did not advocate living by the sword. Yet we see the sword in full display when clinics get bombed, doctors get killed and “a few abortions get prevented???” ONE abortion did not get prevented. The monstrous act of killing a man as he attended church.

  No matter where one stands on abortion as a religious canon; it does not excuse what happened yesterday. And the stereotype becomes well-deserved.

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  Kage_Mann on June 01 at 10:57 a.m.

  The bottom line is:Dr.Tiller was a serial killer since 1973, when abortions were deemed legal.What’s even more astounding is
  he was a late term abortion killer.I thought late term abortions were illegal? Anyway, I hope he gets to face all the thousands of spirits whose bodies he disposed of.I feel no sympathy for women who dispose of their so-called mistake.Why not let someone adopt a baby?

• 

  Arch_Druid on June 01 at 11:24 a.m.

  A serial killer, Kage_Mann is someone they work hard to catch, convict, put in prison and maybe on death row. Since 1973, abortion procedures are not in fact regarded as “serial killing” except to extremists among religious activists. So you can’t tolerate how Roe v Wade got decided. Big deal.

  Then as I also explained to another couple of dudes at “A Matter of Opinion” on the abortion topic, MEN are responsible for getting women pregnant. The MAN who walks away rather than accepting his responsibility for the “child’s” conception is also why the “mistake” gets disposed of. HE can’t be bothered with being a father, then why should SHE be bothered with being a mother?

  Finally, Kage_Mann, condoms are freely available, if the GUY doesn’t want sex with the consequences of a pregnant woman, HE could make use of the condom that is much cheaper than an abortion procedure or a morning after pill. Or even better yet, HE could say no to sex. How about that.

  Fischer could have been saying something like that all along. Amazingly, Kage_Mann, he couldn’t be bothered.

• 

  Don_Sausser on June 01 at 11:31 a.m.

  Really Arch, “MEN are responsible for getting women pregnant”

  And here I always thought that it took two to make that decision.

• 

  zelda on June 01 at 11:40 a.m.

  The biggest question I have is what about the women to whom Dr. Tiller provided services. If Operation Rescue says he was a mass murderer, then shouldn’t the women who got abortions from him also be guilty of a capital crime? Since they hired a murderer, didn’t they also commit premedidated murder? If people believe that abortion is murder, then the women as well as the doctors should be executed, right? — no different from someone who killed a security guard during a bank robbery? And if not the death penalty, how many years in prison should they serve?

  It’s all so convenient for Operation Rescue and other groups to say they didn’t condone Dr. Tiller’s killing, but their actions and words provoke true believers into thinking that they must take the law into their own hands.

  A woman’s body is her own. Hands off.

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  BlueinIdaho on June 01 at 11:42 a.m.

  “Crimes”? “Serial Killer”? I looked and cannot find abortion on the list of crimes. Or is this some moral crime? Do we all get to select what is a crime…and what should be the punishment? This is starting to sound like a Sharia governed land. Perhaps we can ask a mullah for guidance? So, if I am morally opposed to wars, can I shoot military recruiters? Whoa, what do you know, it looks like someone in this society already went there.

  Be careful what you preach and support. It may come back to bite you.

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  Arch_Druid on June 01 at 11:43 a.m.

  Sometimes, Sausser it just takes one, when it is called rape and incest.

  But I can see where you are a bit annoyed. The woman can no longer bear the sole burden for the pregnancy. She can no longer be held solely to account for sex without consequences. Just in case you forgot, that was the typical screed of anti-abortion commentary. Holding the woman solely to account for the sex, the pregnancy and the fate of the “child.”

  The fact that the man IS NOT burdened with sex without consequences by MOST anti-abortion rants to date, to include a letter yesterday in the CDA Press; where the anti-abortionist is apparently quite prepared to excuse the one night stand (that produces a pregnancy, natch) by quoting scripture. Or to even excuse rape and incest (if it produces a pregnancy, natch) by referring to the SAME scriptures.

  In short, the “child” might not have been conceived in righteousness but that it ought to be born anyway. Never mind what God said about the sins of the fathers falling onto the children. To put it bluntly, I don’t see a basis in biblical scripture for MOST anti-abortion canon. There is a lot more excusing of unrighteous acts and using abortion itself as a political attack on feminism than anything to do with actual “family” on a moral basis. I fail to find a moral code for family in anti-abortion dogma. That’s why I shake my head at Fischer.

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  Arch_Druid on June 01 at 11:49 a.m.

  Has it ever occurred to you BlueinIdaho that anti-abortionists are leftist anarchists? A “higher authority” shall govern whom I go out and shoot today, even as I misquote scripture to justify it.

  —Thou shalt not murder includes Dr. Tiller.—

• 

  Phaedrus on June 01 at 11:49 a.m.

  The bottom line is:Dr.Tiller was a serial killer since 1973,

  And kage mann proves my point.

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  Kage_Mann on June 01 at 11:55 a.m.

  Phaedrus, quit playing to your crowd.You’ve been quite partisan today, attacking Mary and Dan at the Press site.I didn’t prove your point, because you missed my point.

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  BlueinIdaho on June 01 at 11:56 a.m.

  That never occurred to me and it would suprise me if true. The people like Fischer and those that worship him would appear to be Christian-in-name-only followers who only talk the talk but couldn’t walk a step in JC’s shoes.

  My point, if lost, is only that we all have different beliefs in what is wrong and right and if we condemn or take action on those beliefs, we are no better than those we have condemned. And, these same people who would disparage the victim in this shooting, are those that express vehement opposition to all things Muslim, yet do not seem to grasp how their expressions mirror the strict Sharia idea.

  They would love public stoning, hangings and all manner of ‘eye for an eye’, but aren’t schooled in their own religion to understand what their own saviour believed in that respect.

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  Kage_Mann on June 01 at 12:03 p.m.

  Arch, I hope your not a man basher. Not all men are bad; like my granny thought. ;-(

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  poolman on June 01 at 12:23 p.m.

  Arch - I think anti-abortionists, generally speaking, would fall under the category of “Right Wing Wacko” - way, way right.

  They are essentially cut from the same cloth as self proclaimed messiah, evangelical, gun hoarder David Koresh, societal misfit, tax evader, gun hoarder Randy Weaver, neo-Nazi, white supremacist, gun harder Richard Butler or polygamists, child rapist, gun hoarder Warren Jeffs. We can now add anti-abortion, religious fanatic, bomb making, capital murderer, gun hoarder Scott Roeder to this esteemed list of Right Wing Wacko’s.

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  Kage_Mann on June 01 at 12:29 p.m.

  I’m glad you don’t live next to me poolman. Your as radical as anybody.

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  poolman on June 01 at 1:05 p.m.

  Kage - I’m very main stream -right down the middle. Actually my neighbors love me. In fact, they like me too much. Whenever I’m out puttering around in my yard they come over to chit chat and hang out, you know, shoot the breeze so to speak. We talk about the latest neighborhood gossip or how I get my roses so perfect and grass so green. I usually cave in and give up a few secrets. I also share insights from Consumer Reports, the Wall Street Journal, and Charlie Rose. Strangely enough, topics like abortion, religion, racism, polygamy or guns never seem to come up.

• 

  Me on June 01 at 1:36 p.m.

  I am against abortion, BUT we have made it legal in the US to have one and to perform them. Therefore, unless the law is changed, I don’t have much to say about it. Nevertheless I am anti abortion. Apparently I am also “Right Wing Wacko” and right in there with Weaver, Koresh, and Butler - who knew? Oh yeah I keep forgetting I’m a racist and bigot. Dang - I need to get a sign and put it on my desk because I keep forgetting these things. Oh and dumber than a box of rocks too.

• 

  spokelooneh on June 01 at 1:47 p.m.

  Question: Do you think the strong denouncements of George Tiller’s murder by pro-life groups are sincere?

  Absolutely not. It IS a perfect example of their hypocrisy however, but then, that’s what they do.

  When you equate ALL abortion with murder, then you are saying that abortion Doctors and women who have abortions ARE murderers.

  You have right wing talking heads like O’Liely calling Dr.Tiller, numerous times, a “baby-killer”, a “murderer”, “Nazi”, a “terrorist” a la Al Queida, and on and on and on.

  Roeder is a domestic terrorist because his actions were designed to terrorize people who are working in that area of health care, and the many women who for whatever reason that is their right, under the law, have decided to terminate pregnancy. He should be prosecuted, tried, and sentenced to the fullest extent of the law.

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  Phaedrus on June 01 at 2:06 p.m.

  —it is the hateful rhetoric of these groups that incites the lunatics who commit such acts- My Point

  —The bottom line is:Dr.Tiller was a serial killer since 1973,- Kage

  —Tiller “was a mass murderer and, horrifically, he reaped what he sowed.” - Randall Terry, Operation Rescue

  ‘nuff said.

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  Sisyphus on June 01 at 2:32 p.m.

  Its successful terrorism at that. The whole point of Roe v. Wade was to allow a woman the freedom to examine all of her options in a pregnancy WITH HER DOCTOR. Threatening doctors with violence and stigmatizing them because of their profession does more to do away with that freedom than any supreme court opinion. Its a threat to our constitution and the terrorist should be treated accordingly. I think those who advocated for this brand of terror like Bill O’Reilly, Randall Terry and others should also face consequences.

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  BlueinIdaho on June 01 at 3:07 p.m.

  Isn’t it easy to pass judgment on someone else? And must be soooo much fun too. It is sooo comforting to know that none of the bloggers here would ever be judged by anyone else, and be labeled with sick, derogatory monikers that are only intended to demean and offend.

  I’m sure it is also comforting to the family and friends of this physician that, at their time of sorrow, their fellow Americans would provide words of caring and expressions of sympathy and not be petty and self-serving in using this tragedy to further their own moral ego stroking.

  I wonder what Jesus would do…

• 

  poolman on June 01 at 3:17 p.m.

  Me - Right wing “wackos” are much farther to the right than your run of the mill wingers. In reality, the fundamental believes for both groups are similarly rooted in a literal interpretation of the Bible and a hard line literal and inflexible interpretation of the Constitution. Take a Bible, a copy of the Constitution and then mix in a little Turner Diaries and you have yourself a right wing wacko cocktail for sure. Leave out the Turner Diaries and you’re more likely to get a babbling paranoid screwball like Bill O’ Reilly or Glen Beck.

• 

  toadman on June 01 at 3:33 p.m.

  “I’m glad you don’t live next to me poolman. Your as radical as anybody.”

  *tears*

  …and here I thought I was the most liberal of all the commie liberal leftist social-wanker-pigs on this blog.

  *saddness*

  ;-)

• 

  Sisyphus on June 01 at 3:36 p.m.

  I think Jesus would take the bullet. The good doctor is another casualty of the culture war the rhetoric for which affords right wing pundits a very lucrative living.

  Thanks poolman, for the recipe for the “right wing wacko cocktail”. Some people throw in a dash of the Federalist Papers.

• 

  Cabbage Boy on June 01 at 3:49 p.m.

  Wow, color me conspiracist green, but right in time for some more clamp downs on free speech and freedom of assembly.

  We have a “right wing radical” shooting a beloved family friendly saintly doctor. Something smells. But it could be all the bigotry here.

  “I do not really believe that organizations like Mr. Fischer’s IVA and Mr. Terry’s Operation Rescue are truly sincere, after all it is the hateful rhetoric of these groups that incites the lunatics who commit such acts. And they know it.”

  Free speech only belongs to the liberal crowd, right Phaedrus?

• 

  Sisyphus on June 01 at 3:57 p.m.

  Inciting violence is not, nor has it ever been, protected by the first amendment. And what is it with the social conservatives that seem to think that the assertion to the first amendment somehow imbues their hate driven speech with an air of authority?

• 

  poolman on June 01 at 3:59 p.m.

  Sis - good point…I’m totally fascinated by wacko’s. People should really stand back and try to understand what makes a guy like this Scott Roeder tick. I think often times they are afraid to because they might find it a little too close for comfort.

  Toad - I get in weird liberal moods once in a while. I think you are more of a purebred with papers and the whole nine yards - I’m more of the mutt variety :)

• 

  Cabbage Boy on June 01 at 4:18 p.m.

  When all else fails Sis, just brand someones opinion as hate speech. That shows you are all outta cards.

  I seriously doubt anyone at the IVA has, and I can’t ever recall reading any social conservative on this site advocating violence. But hey, it is all in the filters. Yours just seem to be quite clogged up from misuse.

• 

  toadman on June 01 at 4:28 p.m.

  “Toad - I get in weird liberal moods once in a while.”

  You haven’t been around when I’m in my Guy Fawkes mood, have you (speaking of violence)?

  ;-)

  I’ve been pretty silent on this issue, for a couple of reasons. I am against late term abortion, and always have been. I’m also against the death penalty, which is indeed, what the murderer carried out on the good Doctor. To say I ride the fence and am my own man where abortion is concerned, is an understatement. I piss both sides off, frankly. Fawkes would be proud..but only if I blew something up.

  heh…

• 

  toadman on June 01 at 4:47 p.m.

  Speaking of the difference in the methods of radicals… I’ve always noted that right wing radicals go after people, using single gun shots or the occasional fertilizer bomb in a truck, leftists tend to go after the buildings and the symbols of institutions using a variety of incendiary devices…fire, dynamite, molotov cocktail.. you know…right wing radicals tend to hoard their weapons for years, let the anger fester, then let it all out at once.. leftists tend to flash to anger quickly using what they have at hand as weapons..

  interesting.. no?

• 

  Sisyphus on June 01 at 4:59 p.m.

  Yup CB, ‘when all else fails’, your argument pretty much comes to the end. But back to the justification for the hate speech, is there one? I mean other than they’re free from government intrusion to express it, like that somehow justifies it, or makes it acceptable, or even less reprehensible. And its not even that thinly veiled. Often the social conservative just demonize them through vile comparisons and reference the eventual judgment of God, it doesn’t take much for someone to wanna advance the cause. Like James Adkisson, the Knoxville shooter, all hopped up on Hannity and O’Reilly and walks into church to start systematically blowing people away. Just read his manifesto and tell me that those shock jocks don’t bear some responsibility.

  http://web.knoxnews.com/pdf/021009church-manifesto.pdf

  And what’s the deal with Christian right offing their enemies in church? They’re probably thinking they are cleansing his house of evil. Perverse. And its beginning to look like a trend. I can’t imagine why Napolitano would wanna keep her eye on ‘em.

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  Cabbage Boy on June 01 at 5:07 p.m.

  So can we pin the unabomer on the liberal crowd? I know he was just a nut, but really he sounded a lot like some of your type of propaganda.

  I am sure if I wanted to dig up some other anarchist liberal types, I could pin a few more on your side.

  Murder is murder. And it is wrong. Tiller did not deserve to be murdered. Some deranged people think so, but when the conservative pundits come out in full force denouncing this crime, you and your squad just fire up the blame and hate speech crap anyway.

  The releases I read from the Pro-life people I read were short and to the point. This was wrong.

  But I guess that still left room for you to spin them as condoning this act.

• 

  Sisyphus on June 01 at 5:20 p.m.

  Now we’re anarchist? I thought conservatives were anti-government? I’m so confused.

  Randall Terry made it sound like the killing was justified to me:

  Terry: The point that must be emphasized over, and over, and over again: pro-life leaders and the pro-life movement are not responsible for George Tiller’s death. George Tiller was a mass-murder and, horrifically, he reaped what he sowed.

  Q: So who is responsible … Terry: The man who shot him is responsible …

  Q: “… because that makes it sound like you were saying that he [Tiller] is responsible. Terry: The man who shot him is responsible.

  Q: What did you mean by “he reaped what he sowed”?

  Terry: He was a mass-murder. He sowed death. And then he reaped death in a horrifying way.

• 

  Phaedrus on June 01 at 5:47 p.m.

  Free speech only belongs to the liberal crowd, right Phaedrus?

  Out of what piece of thin area did you create this myth? I notice that after what you read is processed through your filter, it always seems to come out as putting your words in someone else’s mouth.

• 

  spokelooneh on June 01 at 6:09 p.m.

  If history is any guide, we’re in for another spate of these killings and clinic bombings, that are egged on by the top right wing pundits.

  Despite the fact that the occurrence of abortion under Bush was about the same, if not a bit more, than during the Clinton years, from 1994-2000 8 abortion providers were murdered, 17 cases of attempted murder, and 12 abortion clinic bombings or arson.

  From 2000-2008, there were no murders or attempted murders of abortion providers, and just one abortion clinic bombing.

  So, EVEN THOUGH the same “mass murder” or “serial murder” was going on under Bush, the crazies weren’t motivated to make their ultimate point about abortion by attacking clinics and murdering abortion providers.

  And during the Clinton years, the incidence of abortion went down, quite significantly. Yet the crazed violence against abortion providers was large, and it wasn’t abated, either, by the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances law that came in 1994.

  The reaction of this murder of Dr. Tiller by the supposed “mainstream” pro-life groups is telling in its very weak condemnation of this horrendous murder, which I suspect is because they know they are in fact, complicit, due to the HUGE anti-abortion rhetoric they’ve been spewing since Obama became the nominee, and since he took office.

  “One can only conclude that like terrorist sleeper cells, these extremists have now been set in motion. Indeed the evidence is already there. The chatter, the threats, the hate-filled rhetoric are abundant.

  In the last year of the Bush administration there were 396 harassing calls to abortion clinics. In just the first four months of the Obama administration that number has jumped to 1401.
  …
  “immediately after Obama’s election, Douglas Johnson, Legislative Director of the National Right to Life Committee, called him a “hardcore pro-abortion president.” The American Life League dubbed him “one of the most radical pro-abortion politicians ever,” and Father Frank Pavone of Priests for Life warned that Obama will “force Americans to pay for the killing of innocents.” Americans United for Life, the Family Research Council and Operation Save America quickly joined the chorus.”“

  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cristina-page/the-murder-of-dr-tiller-a_b_209562.html

  Harassment calls to abortion clinics have gone up threefold in the first few months of the Obama administration.

  The nuts have been stirred up, and we know by whom.

• 

  idawa on June 01 at 6:12 p.m.

  ah, one of the great perennial topics on HBO and it always goes to show how intractable the issue is, anyway to the question… I think the groups are sincere in that they think the murder is wrong and that no one who they have influence over should commit murder. This is mainly for self interested reasons though as murder is one of the big sins and even with the Jesus repentance escape clause you just never now how the big guy might take it on judgment day, so don’t risk it even if you really believe you are being righteous. On the other hand, I don’t think they really have any sincere remorse over the Dr’s death as evidenced by their remarks (and as the comments by Kage and others evidence). I would guess that they really believe that deep down this Dr got what he deserved and his death was part of god’s plan, they are just glad they weren’t the chosen instrument.

• 

  Cabbage Boy on June 01 at 10:00 p.m.

  Well Idawa, I for one know you are wrong. He was wrongfully murdered and that is not part of God’s plan as I know it. [ArchD anti-Bible rant filter on]

  @Phaedrus, how about this line? “And they know it.” Who is putting words in whose mouths? You equate the free speech of IVA and other as hate speech because you don’t agree with it.

  @Sis, maybe you need to consult your little political theories dictionary. Conservatives are not anarchists. Equating run of the mill liberals with the Unabomber is over the top, but so is equating conservatives and pro-lifers with Tiller’s murderer.

• 

  toadman on June 01 at 10:29 p.m.

  Look, it’s simple. Distrust and hatred of the government and it’s policies comes from the opposite side of the political spectrum than the one in power, every time.

  We’ve just had a major political polar shift in this country, people are still trying to get their bearings and decide who’s supposed to hate who. The liberals are feeling a little woozy from hating the government for eight years, being called anti/un-American, or worse, “Canadian,” and now all of the sudden find themselves on top of the fresh smelly ideological dog pile, and the conservatives are feeling disenfranchised, angry, and as if the country is being ripped apart by a government bent on taking away their guns, their money, and their right to have unwanted children in their star spangled bannered trailer parks, but are afraid of how to proceed with their hate because they don’t want to be branded as anti/un-American so they have to bring up 9/11 all the time and couch their fear in terms like “taking back America” and “we’re gonna be commies afor ya knows it!” and so forth.

  So, that pretty much sums up every conversation we’ll ever have on this blog for the next 4 to 8 years.. or indeed, ad naseum infinitum. So….not sure what we’re all still going on about here anymore. I suppose, we could all just go home, log off, and have a few beers and wait and see what happens next, you know?

  The facts that STILL remain are these: We are a democracy. Democracy has spoken, and continues to speak. Sometimes, we don’t like what democracy says, but it speaks all the same, whether we, as individuals, like what it says or not. What can you do to change what democracy says? Change or sway public opinion in such a way as to not destroy your own reputation or cause or belief. Killing abortion doctors does NOTHING to help the Pro-Life movement. It may, in fact, help the other side of the debate. The same can be said of Eco-Terrorism. Extremism begets extremism. Anger begets anger. Hate begets hate. Murder begets, you guessed it.. murder (and no, I’m not saying the doctor in this case was a murderer…that’s not my point…).

  So, hey, you know what? Hit the hammock. Enjoy the summer. You still live in the greatest land on the planet…no matter how much Rush Limbaugh hates it right now…

  ;-)

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  Phaedrus on June 01 at 10:39 p.m.

  CB, I equate the free speech of IVA and other as hate speech because I think when you rant about someone being a “mass murderer” and you call them “one of the villains of history” then you are inciting the less stable amongst your followers.

• 

  spokelooneh on June 01 at 10:51 p.m.

  “you call them “one of the villains of history” then you are inciting the less stable amongst your followers.”
  -Phaedrus

  And seeing how that’s a majority, “the less stable”, that’s a big problem.

• 

  Arch_Druid on June 01 at 11:18 p.m.

  While checking through the posts since I last commented (I did some planting in my garden) seems I must have tossed a grenade into the commentary and had all commenting afterwards veering crazily in one direction or another. Did anyone ever do a little checking into the dictionary for anarchy? Anarchy or anarchist: A person who refuses to accept all rules. A person who refuses to abide by a governing authority. A person who makes up his own rules or laws as he goes along. An extreme form of “if it feels good, do it.”

  I stand by what I posted earlier.

  For Toadman’s information, no conservative is in fact a “right wing wacko.” But plenty of wackos in the last 20 years have tried to justify their very existence by calling themselves “right wing.” Doesn’t mean that such a moniker is correct however.

  In this society which is Democratic in nature, pay attention here, class: what conservative would destroy a system or a social order from which he has benefited the most? On the other hand, whether Cabbage Boy wants to be in denial about this or not; religious activists such as Operation Rescue(ing themselves from boredom), Idaho (doesn’t really) Values Alliance, Priests for (the hatred you espouse is still murder—anti) Life, and etc. are so caught up on their own agenda that they pay no attention at all to what they do to the greater society. If the gvt isn’t the type they desire, they will instead thrive on lawlessness and preach against living by the current authority, attacking it and those who expect to benefit the most from it.

  Just as, Toadman, they make the greatest use of socialist style slogans, old liberal arguments and etc. to make their case. If you guys would pay attention, I don’t see any “federalist papers” style of thinking behind the current wave of hate coming from these people.

  For anyone who pays attention to history, federalism was for its time a big gvt approach to everything. The Democratic/Republican associations that existed at the time were opposed to an overwhelming and over-reaching gvt and supported more individual freedom for the peoples. Those who supported individual freedoms were at the time, history’s leftists. Today, “collectivist rights” as an argument in support of unions, civil rights for minorities or women is deemed both “socialist” and “big gvt” in nature. However, “collective rights” for fetuses is deemed an acceptable cause to bring BEFORE gvt. Hypocrisy certainly. But if you are going to make the same sort of argument and seek a similar demand that gvt assist you in some way, that makes you as leftist as the people you say you oppose.

  One other thing, Toadman, bombing abortion clinics; where those clinics are symbols of what anarchist anti-abortionists find wrong in this nation; puts them in the same league as others who attacked buildings as “symbols.” Whether people were immediately under threat or not. Such as the Weather Underground for example.

  No conservative will destroy what he cherishes most. What makes you think, Toadman, that what we are seeing today can be construed as “conservative,” in nature?

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  toadman on June 02 at 12:00 a.m.

  Arch… I don’t think I equated the actions of the murderer with conservative at all..did I? If so, please point it out. Thanks.

  Also, my post about the different methods used by either side of the radical spectrum? Yeah.. that was tongue in cheek and not meant to be taken seriously at all.. sorry.

  Maybe you have me confused with another poster? I think it was Poolman who used the epithet “right wing wacko” in his post. Not me.

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  Arch_Druid on June 02 at 1:09 a.m.

  I referenced you in particular, Toadman because you are particularly hilarious with that I am so “socialist” and other blather. However, you make it particularly obvious that there are some things you would never care to see changed about the underpinnings of this nation. I did not however state that you specifically declared “right wing wackos.” I stated to the commenters in general that there are plenty of wackos who claim to be “right wing.” But that such a moniker isn’t exactly correct. The fact that you hadn’t disputed the assertion is why I went on to point out this little factoid to you.

  For Toadman’s information you are in fact conservative. No you are not a “clinic bomber.” No you are not a fellow who’d shoot a man over a legal practice. No you don’t engage in extreme “anti-gvt” rants when the gvt has been firmly placed in Democratic hands. You are a conservative in the fact that you recognize what this country is all about and what makes this nation what it is. The same can not be said of the wackos out there. Unfortunately, Toadman, when the political spectrum adopts the same language, there are no “two sides.” There is only the left and the other left.

  Just now on PBS, “The News Hour with Jim Lehrer,” was a fellow who went to great lengths explaining what the public ends up seeing vs how the anti-abortionists wish to present themselves. No matter what the anti-abortionists may NOW CLAIM after the fact, all the viewing public sees is the violence. He couldn’t be more correct.

  Thus, a conservative would not destroy what he cherishes. When you advocate what Randall Terry and others of his ilk said about Dr. Tiller (A Matter of Opinion) and as was also shown on PBS (Tiller’s death was long overdue); you would indeed destroy what you claim to cherish. Precisely, if what you cherish is supposedly found in the bible. Thus, that makes you a radical, and not a conservative.

  So, to put it bluntly, Toadman, Poolman and etc.; proclamations of “right wing” to lend legitimacy to something that has nothing to do with it at all. “The right,” must have a set of principles (where the federalist papers was mentioned); but even more than this, must be prepared to apply those principles in practice. Where have you seen, Toadman, an application of principles of limited gvt when it came to the GOP finally in charge for [most of] 8 years? Or of fiscal responsibility? Or of “free market principles” whereby under the GW administration, business interests allowed to run amok must also pay the consequences of risky behavior without gvt intervention? Not.
  Or of accepting personal responsibility—Randall Terry: Tiller reaped what he had sown. Tiller was held responsible for his becoming the victim and not the man who gunned him down. Do you finally get my drift? I hope so.

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  toadman on June 02 at 8:50 a.m.

  “I referenced you in particular, Toadman because you are particularly hilarious with that I am so “socialist” and other blather.”

  Heh.. I know.. I parody myself a lot. It confuses some people, and makes other laugh. So, for me, it’s a win-win.

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