Hospitals Won’t Help w/Suicides

81 comments on this post so far. Add yours!

• 

  Kage_Mann on March 06 at 9:45 a.m.

  A doctor is trained to save lives.This should be a family issue and has no place in a medical facility.

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  hollykb on March 06 at 9:58 a.m.

  To what extent are these businesses obligated to follow the law? I’m not entirely familiar with it, but is there some sort of opt-out clause?

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  Rosalind on March 06 at 10:12 a.m.

  This is what happens when a Catholic hospital system owns the hospitals. Gotta love how a medical facility enforces their values on patients.

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  Kage_Mann on March 06 at 10:16 a.m.

  If hospitals opt out, there could be a business opportunity for a bunch of Kevorkians to come to the rescue.I always thought that Jack was ahead of his time.

  Anyway, this life we live on the earth is very brief and we will only go through it once in our existence.So, why not make the best of it and besides taking your own life is considered murder by god anyway.Let God decide when it’s your time to go.IMO

• 

  Cabbage Boy on March 06 at 10:35 a.m.

  Rosalind,
  How opting out of a law that ALLOWS this considered FORCING morality on patients.

  Seems if the law were to force the hospitals or doctors to do this against their conscience, then that would be forcing morality.

  But as usual, the liberal view only holds their OWN conscience to be the guide.

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  Sisyphus on March 06 at 10:36 a.m.

  Wow. Without directly responding to Kage’s ah, leap of faith, I’d say that the only sure thing that we know when we’re born is that we’re going to die. Palliative care should be a regular branch of the medical community. Its ridiculous to discourage a branch of medicine that would allow people to die with some semblance of dignity in the untenable hope that it somehow may not occur. Like me, any one of you who has cared for a dying family member know the difficulties surrounding the machinations of the legal requirements in hastening the inevitable demise in order to avoid their awful suffering. Witnessing the suffering of my mother’s skeletal husk while she painfully endeavored to gasp for air was one of the most frustrating sad events of my life when she told me she never wanted to be in that position. Why is it when we do it to dogs and cats its called humane but when a person makes the choice for herself because of a debilitating fatal illness its murder?

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  Cabbage Boy on March 06 at 10:38 a.m.

  Gotta love the lunacy of attacking the Catholic Hospital system when the Church was at the forefront of setting up hospitals to help people. Ever wonder why there are so many Catholic or former Catholic hospitals? Because they were there building and staffing them, something about caring for the sick.

• 

  Cabbage Boy on March 06 at 10:41 a.m.

  Sis, just to simply answer your dog and cat question,

  Because they are animals and have no conscience. We are in charge of caring for our animals and at times that means putting them down.

  Ending the life of a human is an entirely different matter. Hence the difference in legal codes for murder versus illegally killing an animal.

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  Sisyphus on March 06 at 10:54 a.m.

  Whoa, way to beg the question there smarty pants. The word was “humane”. And I think I was “caring” for my mother or was that lost in the analysis. It would seem that your “conservative” morality has dominated the legal system for way too long and you might consider for a change the morality as reflected in Washington’s new law.

  And don’t get me started on the archaic Catholic hospital system. Their benevolent sheen they like to polish hides a pretty ugly underbelly. If they continue to get a tax exemption for fulfilling a public purpose, they can pretty much abide by the rules for the people to whom they administer health care. Its the individual’s choice, not the doctor’s, nurse’s, or pharmacist’s who are there to provide professional care. If they can’t or won’t do it they should move on.

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  Aliasjax on March 06 at 10:59 a.m.

  Look, we either have a right to life and liberty or we don’t…If it’s my life, I should be able to decide (freely choose) to end it, and others should be able to decide (freely choose) to assist me without fear of police action against them…

  The irony regarding death issues in this country have always baffled me. Whose body is it? Who’s more justified in determining what happens to it? Are the workers at Deconess really racking up heaven points by prolonging suffering by adhering to their own archaic code of righteousness???

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  toadman on March 06 at 11:00 a.m.

  I believe in this law. As a citizen of Washington State, I voted in favor of this law. I think the hospitals are being dumb. There are plenty of safeguards in place to make this a safe practice that is completely decided by the patient. I believe people should have the right to die with dignity. I know I would. It’s my choice, my life, and nobody’s business but my own.

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  brandxranch on March 06 at 11:07 a.m.

  Medically assisted suicide is a very slippery slope, a topic all by itself. In terms of local hospitals opting out; it is very appropriate. If a terminally ill patient has actually found a physician to assist in their demise,I would suspect that it would best be done at home, surrounded by loving family or friends. There is no need for hospitalization, since there is no wish for healing or helping measures. Legally and ethically, hospitals are compelled to back away from folks being admitted simply to end their lives.

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  Cabbage Boy on March 06 at 11:07 a.m.

  Sis, I stated that I was simply answering your question on dogs and cats. I didn’t make any presupposition on your care for your mother.

  Like I said Aliasjax, why is freedom of conscience not afforded to those who don’t want to assist in taking a life? Women should be free to have an abortion, but the doctor isn’t free to NOT perform an abortion? How convoluted can you get? A patient is free to seek assisted suicide but the doctors are not free to say, not from me?

  Who is truly pushing their morality on others?

  And the Catholic hospitals should dissolve just because they want to tend to the sick rather than participate in what would violate their conscience? You guys really crack me up with your warped view of freedom.

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  Cabbage Boy on March 06 at 11:08 a.m.

  So Toad, you believe you have that right. But should someone be forced to assist you?

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  Joker on March 06 at 11:14 a.m.

  I’ve been bedside of relatives when they were dying. Hospitals amp up the pain medication to the point where I believe it actually sped up the death and lessened the pain.

  Is that wrong? I don’t know.

  Should we all suffer in horrible agony before we go? I think not.

• 

  toadman on March 06 at 11:22 a.m.

  Cabbage, no. I don’t think any one person should be forced to assist. It’s just my opinion that thinking of this in any other term than the will of the patient is incorrect. The patient needs the service performed safely, and effectively. As a paying customer of the hospital, it seems to me that they should be obligated to fulfill their patient’s wishes. I’m sure they can find a doctor or a nurse on their staff who is willing to fulfill the wishes of the patient without making any other staff member uncomfortable.

  This really all comes down to religious belief, in my opinion. If your religion tells you that suicide is an “unforgivable sin,” then you’re obviously going to be against such a procedure. I, however, hold no belief. So, then, is it a question of the patient forcing their beliefs on the hospital, or the hospital forcing their beliefs on the patient? Where does it end?

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  florined on March 06 at 11:34 a.m.

  Here is another example of our “progress” complicating our moral decisions. The more our knowledge (technology?) gives us the power to prolong physical life, the murkier our decisions become. I respect the quandary faith-based organizations face if their tenets have clear-cut, black and white rules (in this case, anti-suicide) But If those same organizations don’t go so far as to provide live-saving means, (including on-going medication and care, even) is that a form of murder? Please be clear…I’m not making that judgment; I just pose the question.

  Do those who pronounce this new law to be immoral understand that most care facilities, on a regular basis, quit administering food and water, after certain determinations have been made by physicians. In fact, many of us have registered our instructions regarding this very issue. How does this fit into the moral stance?

  The matter of whether or not an individual can choose to end his/her own life is one issue. Whether or not an organization (especially one receiving support in any way through tax dollars) can refuse to offer an option, especially in an area where that option is not readily available otherwise, is a separate, and even more problematic issue.

  And please be sure you keep in mind that not everyone, at the time of death, has a private home to die in or even family left to gather round them.

• 

  JeanieSpokane on March 06 at 11:52 a.m.

  I wrote about this a couple days ago and won’t repeat it - but to say it is a very difficult and complex issue. I would agree that it is not entirely appropriate in hospitals. This is a very personal, very intimate issue. My Dad had used all his life lines. There were no other avenues for him. At best, we offered Dad palliative care. I am glad this law has been passed in Washington.

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  idawa on March 06 at 11:59 a.m.

  while I do have qualms about institutions that take state money not providing a legal, medical service to individuals on a “morality” basis, generally I am fine with organization opting out, at least in Spokane where consumers have choice. If the hospitals did not take any state money and were purely private institutions, I would have no qualms with their choice. That said, I think if a hospital does decide to provide this choice to patients, I don’t think we should extend employee protection to those Drs. who opt out - they are free to go work for hospitals like these whose morality better suit their own. I imagine we will see this fight very soon given the fact that Pharmacist have waged a similar battle to protect their jobs in lieu of the morning after pill and Plan B…

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  marmitetoasty on March 06 at 12:13 p.m.

  http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090306/tuk-couple-die-at-swiss-suicide-clinic-a7ad41d.html

  How sad…….. but I believe their right…

  x

• 

  Cabbage Boy on March 06 at 1:13 p.m.

  Toad, if the Hospital is run and financed by an organization that doesn’t believe in it and the patients are informed of this, how can there be an issue.

  When I had was knocked out, I tried to go to my regular doc, and then immediate care. They wouldn’t see me because it was against their policy. I had to go to the ER. Shall I file a discriminatory suit against them? No. By their policy or lawyers, they weren’t allowed to see me. So I moved on.

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  Kage_Mann on March 06 at 1:14 p.m.

  I’d have a hard time going through the rest of eternity, if I’d quit and employed euthanasia.I don’t want to go to hell, known as a quitter, coward. It’s also, not in my ego or character to end it all.People who do this are mentally weak IMO.

• 

  Joker on March 06 at 1:28 p.m.

  Kage,

  I am glad you’ve got it all figured out. By your reasoning people on their deathbed shouldn’t have any pain medication cause their mentally weak. I am I reading that correctly?

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  toadman on March 06 at 1:28 p.m.

  “People who do this are mentally weak IMO.”

  I believe quite the opposite, where what we’re talking about is concerned. Physically healthy people who commit suicide are by definition, mentally disturbed. However, having the forethought to end ones own life when a definite diagnosis is given, takes mental strength, integrity, and courage, IMO.

  I don’t know if there is an afterlife. People always say “isn’t it terrible to think that this is all there is, that there may be nothing more?” I usually answer (if they’re open to discussion) no. Quite the opposite. If this is it, our only chance to live and make a positive and memorable impact on the world and the people around us, that this isn’t just some sort of *test,* it is very liberating, and makes every moment of life that much more precious and meaningful.

  I do not fear death. I never will. How can I fear simple non-existence? Do I fear the my lack of existence before I was born? If I think of it in these terms, I am at peace, and every day of life is a blessing, and a gift, not just another daily test to get into someone’s idea of an afterlife. If, someday, I am given the gift of an actual termination date of my life because of disease, I’ll use my time wisely, and chose the day and the manner of my passing, because I can.

• 

  idawa on March 06 at 1:32 p.m.

  That’s right KM - you god has given people a choice. They can either live in searing, excruciating, tortious pain for the rest of their life - and that could be months or weeks, he just won’t tell ‘em. Or, they can chose to drug themselves up with morphine to the point where they can no longer think, communicate, or control their own bowels. But that’s it, those are the only two options. If they choose to end their agony and come join him, he’ll turn them away and let you call them weak and cowards. What a joke you are…

  I’m glad this is a much kindler, gentler HBO as more eloquent posters than I would soon descend to feast on your ignorance.

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  toadman on March 06 at 1:32 p.m.

  CB - in answer to your question, people seeking this should find another hospital or doctor who will carry out their wishes to avoid having the beliefs of a larger group cause them the pain and indignity of lingering between life and death. Sadly, from what I can tell, there are few hospital choices in the Inland Northwest that aren’t tied to a religious group of some sort.

• 

  Kage_Mann on March 06 at 1:40 p.m.

  Joker, I believe in pain medication, to assist people in their pain management. I just think some peoples wills are stronger than others.Some people need AA to quit drinking and some can quit on their own.Is it a character flaw?

• 

  Joker on March 06 at 1:49 p.m.

  Take enough morphine and you will die.

  How is a patient who is escalating their dosage of morphine to the point of death different from doctor assisted suicide?

  The only difference is time. It’s faster to kill yourself than it is to overdose. And trust me, when somebody is terminal, they don’t limit how much morphine you get.

  The world ain’t that simple…

• 

  Me on March 06 at 1:59 p.m.

  Kage - please. My Mother passed away in October. She had told myself, my sister and my Son that she did NOT want to be intubated - ever. She ended up in ICU and had two people ‘bagging’ her - breathing for her! We had told them not to intubate her as she had been SO adament about it her whole life and had told us so. When they called us and we walked in it was agonizing to see these two wonderful people breathing for her - they had been doing it for 45 minutes. Do you think it was easy to tell them to stop?

  She was not a weak person, she was one of the strongest people I have known! Her body gave out on her. When we had left her the night before she told us she wasn’t giving up and was going to do everything they told her so she could get back home.

  Should she really have been put on a machine? What kind of life is that? Not the kind she wanted! She had every right to go as she wished.

• 

  Me on March 06 at 2:00 p.m.

  Continued. When they quit breathing for my mother she was gone within 15 minutes. It was gentle and we were there telling her we loved her. THAT was all she asked for.

• 

  Kage_Mann on March 06 at 2:28 p.m.

  Everybodys, experiences are different no doubt. I don’t blame people for euthanizing or drugging themselves to the point of expiring.I know how hard life is and how hopeless things can get.Joker,is right the process is complicated, with a bunch of varying factors in play.

  My grandmother was dying of bone cancer in the 80’s and it’s an insidious disease which, caused alot of pain.She hung in for quite awhile and didn’t give up.It never even crossed her mine to end it all.It wasn’t until my aunts told her that it was OK, for her to leave this world, that she left us the next morning.
  Somehow,god knows when it’s time for us to go home.

• 

  Sisyphus on March 06 at 2:29 p.m.

  “How is a patient who is escalating their dosage of morphine to the point of death different from doctor assisted suicide?”—trouble is a doctor is legally precluded from telling you how much is too much. The issue here is “doctor assisted”. The way the hospice care givers do it, is say the amount the doctor said she could have and then they “warn” you that if you take this much (indicating) it could kill you. Trouble is many patients are in uncharted territory and wait until they are physically unable to do the deed themselves. ALS and MS patients are a good example.

  CB and I have a moral disagreement on this issue. He thinks its immoral to ever give in to the notion that you will die and hasten the demise. I think its immoral to fail to assist someone to die when that fact is imminent and the remaining life is one full of pain and suffering. These are difficult choices and intensely personal. Its also very dependent upon proper assessment by trained medical professionals. CB’s probably right that the law should not force a doctor to participate if she would find it morally repugnant. But the issue here is an entire hospital because of what the Catholic Church dictates. It would be one thing if they only provided services to Catholics but they don’t. Its to the public at large. And if they lack a palliative unit because of the church’s objections then I question whether they serve the public when the public has authorized it.

• 

  Cindy_H on March 06 at 3:06 p.m.

  I’m so sorry to make light of such a serious issue but:

  I’ve got no problem with assisted suicide. The only problem is the people I’d like to assist are resistant to my offers of aid.

  There I feel better, now. I know I shouldn’t, but I do :-)

• 

  toadman on March 06 at 3:13 p.m.

  HA! Cindy.. I love dark humor.

  It’s the same with my abortion comedy routine that is often frowned upon.. the one where I say “Sometimes I’d like to extend the right to abort a child up to about the age of 18 or so.”

  ;-)

  dark.. I know.. but you know you had to smirk…

• 

  Cindy_H on March 06 at 3:16 p.m.

  No! Toad! Retroactive abortion is totally MY comedy routine.
  I stole it from Charles Osgood.
  It’s mine, I tell you!

• 

  Cabbage Boy on March 06 at 3:23 p.m.

  Sis, just for the record, what I disagree with is “assisted suicide”, not removing artificial living aids such as ventilators and such. Those are artificial means and a person has a right to not be artificially kept alive.

  But actively killing a person is different.

  Just because the public has authorized it doesn’t mean it legislated that they HAVE to offer this. What about immediate care clinics? Should they have to offer this?

• 

  Kage_Mann on March 06 at 3:28 p.m.

  So far, CB is acing this thread IMHO. ;-)

• 

  florined on March 06 at 4:39 p.m.

  dang. Kage, I totally missed the “contest” aspect of the thread. Maybe we should vote?

  How about allowing what the Washington law is designed to allow: choice in the matter of whether or not to continue living. Clearly if you choose to receive what is usually referred to as “extraordinary measures,” that is your right. And if, after 3 experts have deemed your situation beyond hope, declaring that you will die within 6 months, you decide that maybe you’ll skip the pain, the dragged out stress on your family and any assets you have left, and get on with it, then that is your choice. And if you choose and are lucky enough to have those saints at Hospice caring for you or have a hospital or other facility with strong palliative care centers (Kootenai County is pretty strong this way), then that is also your choice.

  My urging is to be sure you have discussed all of this with your family and friends, Many people who are closely involved in these situations will tell you that the biggest obstacle can be family members who just can’t let go because of their own needs, not those of the dying person’s.

  We’re all gonna die. Please be sure you’ve made your own wishes clear to family and medical care providers. Most state laws will support your wishes if you have paved the way.

• 

  Sam on March 06 at 5:08 p.m.

  Holly, check out the law for yourself. It was just passed, and began as I-1000. Here’s the PDF from the Secretary of State’s office:

  http://www.secstate.wa.gov/elections/initiatives/text/i1000.pdf

  Check out Section 19.

• 

  Digger on March 06 at 6:31 p.m.

  My father once told me:

  “f I get sick enough to need to commit suicide I’ll do it like a real an with a bottle of Jack and a shotgun.”

  I always thought this was the best way to go up until I started working in a mortuary. Now, not so much. I haven’t made up my mind on this issue so I won’t comment further.

• 

  cantyoureadthesigns on March 06 at 11:46 p.m.

  If you believe in the teachings of Jesus, then you know that HE SUFFERED, and HE DIED, so that we might have everlasting life, despite our sins. Jesus did not suggest that WE MUST SUFFER horribly in order for our eternal souls to join with Him in the Kingdom of God, after our bodies expire in this realm.

  The hospital system in the article, Deaconess and Valley, are NOT the Catholic hospital system in Spokane, that which are known as Providence Healthcare and include Sacred Heart and Holy Family hospitals. I don’t think they’ve taken a position on the new law, but it would not surprise me if they take the same position as Deaconess did, which also specifies that they will gladly arrange a transfer to another entity which will abide by the patient’s wishes.

  Deaconess was recently purchased by one of the largest for-profit hospital chains in the country.

  Physician assisted suicide happens every single day, in Catholic or other religiously-affiliated hospitals, and those that are not. Everywhere in the country. It’s just not talked about, except in very muted tone. Ask any cancer doc.

  The Catholic Church needs to be applauded for the long history of providing medical care. I can personally attest to the quality of their care, both when I had health insurance that was paying for it, and also when I was indigent, and they absorbed the costs under their charity care program, which is the largest medical charity care, by far, in the Spokane area.

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