Cis: Have We Really Come A Long Way?

33 comments on this post so far. Add yours!

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  Charlie on March 28 at 7:45 a.m.

  Two steps forward, many steps backward.

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  hmoffsuite on March 28 at 9:05 a.m.

  My comments here may not be very well received by some on the blog, but it is my considered opinion. I think the ‘womans movement’ and ‘womans liberation’ in the 60’s is the root of many of our social problems today. When women decided that they wanted to ‘have it all’ it required some sacrafices that have effected our nuclear families. Women wanted children, jobs, careers, equality in the workplace, etc. etc. all at the same time. When kids started coming home from school and mom wasn’t there with a hug, cookies and milk, and conversation about how the school day went, the Country started to go down hill, imo. I believe a woman has a right to do anything she wants with regard to a career in the workplace and that pay for those jobs done should be equal to their male counterparts. However, I don’t think a woman should be trying to have that career and raise a family at the same time. After the kids are out of school, that would be fine. But as long as they are in school, I think the career of choice for a woman should be that of being a full time mother. Hillary Clinton made a point in her book “It takes a village”. Sure, it takes a village, if the mother (like Hillary) isn’t home to raise her own children. Women with families in the workplace have led to day care needs and have shifted the responsibility of raising the kids to the schools and the teachers. That, in turn, to a degree, has burdened our educational system to make it less efficient. Kids with no parent at home after school are prone to other activities, many of which are not desirable. Gangs have taken the place of families in many cases and fill the void left by a parent not being home. Being a mother can be a full time job and is a very admired profession, in my mind.

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  JBelle on March 28 at 9:21 a.m.

  Two separate conversations here. Let me start by givng HMOffsuite a long, level look and asking him how serious he expects to be taken with opinions like that. I am a woman who was thrust into a career because of a father who refused to support his children. I kept them in private schools, a variety of enrichment programs, made many of their clothes myself while not being a home when they arrived from school. All*by*myself.* Surprise, surprise. Not one of them was or is in a gang. Not one of them developed addictions to alcohol or drugs. Not one of them failed to meet any of their responsibilities to their school, their neighborhood, their community, their state nor their country. They pay taxes, vote, volunteer, obey the local, state, and federal laws and are all gainfully employed. They are all decent human beings, wonderful children to their mother and their second father, and I welcome them to comment here on impact of working mother in their socio-psycho development.

  Be careful, HMOsuite; while I know it’s not your intent, you are bordering on being quite rude. And that I will not settle for. By the way, while I have been quite fortunate in business and enjoyed success others might not, I consider the most important work of my life, and the most succesful work of my life, being a good wife and mother. I recommit myself to my goals every year on my birthday and since May 12, 1975, the goal of being a really good mother has not changed. I hope it never does. (spits on the ground and stomps off)

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  marmitetoasty on March 28 at 9:32 a.m.

  I think someone is bridging on needing a knuckle to the side of their head….

  x

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  Kage_Mann on March 28 at 9:34 a.m.

  HMO- comes from the old school of thought on women and the work place.I agree with his basic premise, that a woman should stay home and raise her kids, before she heads out into the workplace and society would be better served by it.But, alot of women have to work to help pay the bills today, whether they want to or not.We can partly blame inflation and the federal gov’t for the breakup of the family also.

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  hmoffsuite on March 28 at 9:37 a.m.

  JBelle. I certainly didn’t mean to offend anyone. I realize there are a great number of working mothers that have done a fantastic job with their kids and managed their careers well also. I also think there are a number of ‘stay at home’ moms that have done a lousy job in the raising of their children. My comments were directed to those who aren’t forced into the workplace by circumstances. But rather, those who merely choose to ‘have it all’. Those that work to supplement their egos. Now, a question for you: If a breakdown in the ‘family’ has taken place, as evidenced by more kids having gone astray, unwed teens having children, sexting, etc etc, then what, in your opinion, is the root cause??

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  JBelle on March 28 at 9:56 a.m.

  My dear HM,

  Do not kid yourself. There isn’t a woman filling out a W-9 today that isn’t working for the money. Just dont’ kid yourself.

  “Family breakdowns” take place quite simply, because Mom and Dad arent’ keeping their eye on the ball. The variables in the equation have changed; I was not close to being the mother that my mother was because our job descriptions varied so drastically. I couldn’t fall back on the models of parenting that my parents used because the constants in the equation had changed. And the impact of the new constants was unknown to me. So I had to stay on top of absolutely every movement of the equation, monitor the impact and adjust. Sometimes daily.

  I always have a little start with the moniker “not in my backyard”, or NIMBY, used in context of describing people resisting change and progress— because one of the four corners of my parenting model was and is, Not Here. We don’t do that here and we won’t do that here. You will see that done is other households, other families, heck our neighbors and relatives might play (video games) but not here. Here, we read. Here, we play board games. Here, we bake. Here, we garden. Here we shoot hoops, make shots on goal, farm ants and perform any science experiment that’s legal in the State of Washington. But we do not play video games. I held that line for I am not going to say how many years, and after a spell, my children understood and knew that here, we don’t play video games here. They will probably tell you it was one of the first times they identified institutional limitations and learned to work around those limitations, but I will tell you all 3 of my kids read, cook, play sports and remain curious, life long learners. And became respectful of the rules of the house and learned, at an early age, that although there are things you can do, and a lot of people will do, sometimes you just don’t do things only because you can.

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  JBelle on March 28 at 10:06 a.m.

  I need to make an additional point while I am ranting and raving on this subject. I would not have raised, in my grandfather’s lexicon, “Fine, young, Americans” had it not been for people like Marmitetoasty and Family Phil. If I was reading resumes and hiring for a father for my children, I would pick Phil. Or Toad. And my children would not have had the social and academic success they had if I didn’t have partners like Marmie, who touched base with me at the beginning of my swing shift and said, “here’s what’s going on, here’s what you might check into and here’s what’s happening tomorrow”. I could rely and count on these people as if they were my mother. It was the Phils and the Toads of the world who were the scoutmasters, coaches, room dads who helped me, consoled me, coached me and reminded me, tomorrow’s another day and sent me back into the game. God bless you all; I sure think of you. I am really glad this thread came up because it gives me an opportunity, during Lent, to be grateful once again for what was so powerful, yet so subtle, in my and my children’s lives.

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  hmoffsuite on March 28 at 10:11 a.m.

  JBelle. It is a shame there aren’t more mothers like you. I congratulate you on your wisdom and for the result you have achieved with regard to your children. Many a parent is not as fortunate as you. And, fwiw, I do think there are many women that are working without the absolute need for the money. It may be for a bigger house or nicer car to keep up with the Jones’, but not to meet pure economic needs.

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  Cindy_H on March 28 at 11:22 a.m.

  ((JBelle)) Your words have given me hope and reminded me how fortunate I am. Through no fault of my own, the right man picked me. He supported my choice to stay home with our children, and worked two jobs, so that we could send them to private schools in the primary/middle school grades.
  When our youngest started school, I was blessed to find work in a field that lets me work from home and my husband finally retired from his second job serving in the National Guard.
  We outgrew our aging split-level many years ago. Our cars are ancient and unlovely, but paid for. We won’t be able to pay for our children’s college education, they’ll have to work and borrow, just like we did.
  I know that we would be better off financially if I’d worked those 15 years I spent at home. But I wouldn’t change a thing.
  Only time will tell if our investment will produce “fine, young Americans,” but I’ve been so fortunate to have this one luxury— the luxury of choice.
  Thank you for your timely reminder.
  PS: If you ever teach a class on how to survive your children’s teen years, I’ll be the first one to sign up :-)

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  florined on March 28 at 12:59 p.m.

  hmo, I am distressed that you automatically assign all “parenting” to the mother. Is it only the father who is allowed to seek personal fulfillment, including but not limited to a spouse and children?

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  hmoffsuite on March 28 at 2:08 p.m.

  florined. In my mind, ideally, parenting would be done by both parents. Both husband and wife. If one or the other is not available, then one parent would have the responsibility of raising the children. If they wish to switch roles, that would likely be quite workable. But, my original contention is that it is better for the children, in most cases, if there is at least one full time parent. Can’t personal fulfillment be accomplished by parenting? That is sort of my point.

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  florined on March 28 at 3:24 p.m.

  2 issues, hmo: 1) is the child best served if a parent is consistently available? Of course. And I admire parents (male or femail) who choose to be always available, at the home site. Is it not possible, however, for that availability responsibility to be shared? I have friends who did that: actually split the work week when the kids were pre-school, for example. 2) the other issue, whether or not homemaking/full-time child care can be fulfilling, depends on the individual involved.

  The original question was whether or not “we” had come a long way. I’d say yes. And add that I don’t think that women in the work force/professions is the cause of broken homes. In a time when women had no choice, they nonetheless had that pesky little need for food and shelter. This annoying forced dependence also forced them to put up with whatever situation the “provider” chose to make available. Being able to make a living in some way other than street begging or prostitution gave them some choices.

  Is the ideal a partnership, with each compromising some to meet the needs of the other and both taking full responsibility for any resulting children? Does the sun come up? But blaming the changes since WWII, or the 60’s depending on your view of history, for the downfall of our culture, pregnant teens, the collapse of morality….naw. Actually, Chelsea seems to have turned out pretty well!

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  Kerri on March 28 at 3:24 p.m.

  I must wade into the fray since Jbelle has paved the way quite nicely. As a young wife and mother coming of age in the ‘70s I was excited by the message of Gloria Steinham and Ms. Magazine. They told me we could have it all, be it all, do it all and I believed it. What they didn’t say is that it was not nearly as glamorous as they portrayed when divorce and widowhood entered the equation. To me, women’s liberation was or should have been about choice and about equality in pay. What it became was my first experience with women as our own worst enemies. It was never a man who would look at me with raised eyebrows and a disapproving look if I answered the question of “what do you do?” with “I’m a mother.” How many times have you heard a woman apologize for being “just a mother.” My babies have long since grown up into those wonderful creatures Jbelle has described and I’m in awe. I did a lot of things the hard way, learning as I went. I’ve stayed at home with my kids and I was a working mother during part of their growing up. I busted through a glass ceiling or two humming, “I am woman hear me roar” and I’ve had some extraordinary times as “just a mom.”
  For women like Cindy who have made the choice to be a full-time parent, I hope you never ever describe yourself as “just a mom.” No professional recognition or award or huge paycheck will ever surpass my accomplishments or personal fulfillment as a mother. Ever. Not even close.

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  JeanieSpokane on March 28 at 8:22 p.m.

  Well, you all have heard my story - I have been a single mother since my boys were 2 and 3. And like KT, I came into my own in the 70s. I didn’t have the luxury and the comfort of having a father figure for my boys nor the luxury of staying at home. I had to support my boys, pay the rent, buy food, pay the utilities, buy clothes - all with no child support. As JBelle said, I did it alone.

  My boys have turned out to be the most wonderful fully formed adults. And as boys, er, men, they treat the women in their lives as special, if not like queens. They treat me like I’m a goddess.

  I *have* come a long way baby.

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  hmoffsuite on March 28 at 8:34 p.m.

  JeanieS . You and others on this thread like JBelle are the exception and not the rule. You should be congratulated and applauded. It is a tough road to hoe raising a family as a single mother and coming out with positive results It takes a stong person to be able to pull it off. Many aren’t as fortunate.

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  Cis on March 29 at 5:15 p.m.

  All great conversation and good points by ALL… but when I wrote the original.. it was meant to point out that girls/women are still letting men run their lives, dominating them, beating them. Women/girls are still degrading themselves with no self respect.
  This is not a man bashing subject for me..as I truly believe a good relationship or marriage is based on a mutual respect for each other. To compliment each other. Not to domain either, by either. Or crush the spirit of each other.

  But you all are right on target about raising children/working be it forced by divorce or widowship. If you are a parent be one, not let the children decide how to do it. But that is another post for me someday soon.

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