Spokane Scofflaws Dis Green Suds

98 comments on this post so far. Add yours!

• 

  moscow_minidoka on March 31 at 12:27 p.m.

  These people must have crappy dishwashers, or else not rinse their dishes before they put them in the dishwasher.

  I’ve been using phosphate-free dishwashing detergent for about 8 years, and I have never had a problem with my dishes not being clean afterward.

• 

  Shannon on March 31 at 12:34 p.m.

  Why don’t they just improve the phosphate-free detergents? My sister-in-law rinses her dishes beforehand and they still have food and a weird film on them. Plus, the new detergent ruined the seal on their brand new dishwasher.

• 

  Liz on March 31 at 12:46 p.m.

  It’s just like the “low volume” toilets. You wind up flushing them multiple times, which probably has far more environmental impact than if they just made it legal to use enough to get the job done.

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  lew2nl on March 31 at 12:51 p.m.

  My “Spokane” daughters have tried every type of phosphate-free dishwasher detergent on the market. They rinse their dishes before putting them in the dishwasher and still need to run the dishwasher cycle three times in order to get clean dishes. AND they have new dishwashers. And YES, they smuggle detergent and I help them do it as I eat at their homes frequently.

  Moscow Minidoka, what brand do you use?

• 

  Bent on March 31 at 12:52 p.m.

  This phosphorus dishsoap ban is pointless. The wasterwater treatment folks will tell you that it will not make even the slightest dent in the amount of phosphorus that is dischared into the river because current technology already removes most of it from the treated water that is discharged into the river.

  The real problem is that no technology is available to remove the very small amount of phophorus that remains in the water after it is treated…Banning dishsoap will do nothing to solve that problem.

  The ban was purely a political move by Spokane County to earn “green points” that I suspect they will cash in when they go to ask for discharge permit to operate their new wastewater facility that is under construction now…

• 

  Cindy_H on March 31 at 12:55 p.m.

  My brother lives in Post Falls. For Christmas he bought me a ginormous tub of Kirkland dishwasher soap. He’s a good brother.
  My dishwasher is state-of-the-art, and yes MM, we rinse our dishes very well. BUT if you have to run tons of hot water and wash your dishes by hand again AFTER they’ve been through the washer, you’re not saving anything.
  FYI: If I’m on the awards committee for the next blogfest, ya’ll know what to bribe me with ;-)

• 

  Lynne on March 31 at 1:05 p.m.

  Yes, if my clothes and dishes weren’t getting clean, I would smuggle them. As Liz said, flushing the new low flow toilet four times to get the job done isn’t eco friendly to me. And I didn’t buy a dishwasher so that I could wash dishes *before* I load them into it.

• 

  JeanieSpokane on March 31 at 1:05 p.m.

  Finally - a blessing in disguise. I live in a little tiny house with a septic tank and a dishwasher is just out of the question. So I have solved the problem by washing my dishes by hand!

  Clean as a whistle - and if one comes through not so clean, I lick it.

• 

  MikeK on March 31 at 1:07 p.m.

  Oh, we are all going to hear so much about this issue as the dischargers and the EPA and the IDEQ and the WDOE and, and, and, all get deeper and deeper into the details of permitting. It’s an issue that is fascinating, frustrating, and really important, if one enjoys the privilege of flushing, that is. And did I mention tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars ride on the decisions made in places pretty far away from here? (Olympia, and Washington,DC, etc, etc).

  I’m not really the smuggling type, though. I chickened out of bringing a Cuban cigar (sans band) through airport customs from Canada one time.

• 

  Frum Helen Back on March 31 at 1:27 p.m.

  I met one of the Spokanites buying dishwasher soap at the Post Falls WalMart. He and the clerk said we wiil all have to buy green soap in 2010. The last two times I was in Costco, they only had boxes of “green” dishwasher soap. I have a super duper dishwasher and Costco “green” stuff just doesn’t do the trick. If I have to wash them first, then I might as well wash them by hand. So I’ve decided to just assume the left on food has been sterilized and use the dishes anyway.

• 

  Sisyphus on March 31 at 1:43 p.m.

  Oh great Kennedy give the CAVErs some more ammo. We’ve already got coffee-gate, wandering-gate and catheter-gate which while admittedly tied to the same activity was skillfully parsed into three separate scandals. Now you’re an avowed attempted smuggler seeking to support commies. I can see Mary’s keyboard smoking from Boise. I’ll bet removing that band violated some codes and indicates a deceptive intent. You’ll have pitchforks and torches by Friday.

  Sheesh. It was probably a counterfeit anyway.

• 

  IHike4Fun on March 31 at 1:48 p.m.

  So here is a question. If the hard water is causing the problem… why not just have a water softener installed?

• 

  toadman on March 31 at 1:54 p.m.

  This is silliness. The so-called “green” soaps work just fine…at least I can’t tell the difference at our house. The trick is, rinse, then put. Might I suggest that someone is overfilling their dishwasher, being a little lazy about doing a quick rinse before putting, or is just a bloviating blowhard with nothing more to do with their time but complain about petty nothingness.

  Anything we do, be it small or large, to protect the environment, at whatever cost, is better than doing nothing at all. I remain unmoved when people complain about how much keeping the environment clean “costs.” This is the only planet we have, not keeping it clean is like continuing to live in your own filth. The costs we pay now, are minuscule in comparison to the costs we could pay in the future. Suck it up.

• 

  scootermom on March 31 at 1:55 p.m.

  I don’t smuggle anything I can’t smoke.

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  Cabbage Boy on March 31 at 2:12 p.m.

  “Anything we do, be it small or large, to protect the environment, [emphasis] at whatever cost, [/emphasis]”

  I would disagree toad. But I do so love the snobbery of looking down the nose at those who have different experiences with the worthless soap.

  doing anything we can at whatever the cost has contributed to our economic issues. Saddling businesses and citizens with emotional yet worthless responses to environmental problems is not a good thing.

• 

  poolman on March 31 at 2:26 p.m.

  I’m pretty sure the effectiveness of the detergent depends on the harness of your water (amount of calcium). People that have water softeners or natural low harness water probably don’t have any issues with the phosphate free detergent.

  Whatever happened to Indy - that dude used to be over the phosphate debate.

• 

  Cindy_H on March 31 at 2:28 p.m.

  Indy=Bent.
  See above :-)
  And IHIKE, you’re welcome to buy me a water softener.

• 

  Sisyphus on March 31 at 2:28 p.m.

  LOL Scootermom. Thanks.

  CB and Toad. Some facts would be nice. I’m skeptical of Bent’s claims that this was a futile gesture. I’d be curious to know more. Personally, regardless of soap, I have to rinse first. Phosphates give us that nice sheen and the ones without don’t, but they’re still clean albeit spotty from rinse water. And removing the phosphates surely is a cost we must bear for using them.

• 

  Bent on March 31 at 2:41 p.m.

  Toad, IMHO if the politicans legitimately wanted to address the phosphorus issue in a substantial way, they would have banned phosphorus in yard fertilizers… but they knew that people would recoil even faster if they had to give up a quick and easy green lawn…

  I’m not kidding about the dishsoap. Whether you ban it or not, the same amount of phophorus is going to be discharged into the river everyday, which is a very miniscule amount, but taking care of that is going to take new technology. And, even if the technology existed to remove phosphorus to the point that Washington state and EPA are proposing, we would not know if we hit the target because we current cannot measure phosphorus at the ultra-low levels that are being strived for.

  Also, we shouldn’t make the mistake of clasifying phosphorus as a pollutant. It is a nutrient, and certain amount of it is good. The US and Canada nearly destroyed the fishery on Lake Koocanusa in Montana by removing too much phosphorus from the system. Canada actually has a system to manually add phosphorus back into the lake to feed zoe plankton, which feeds the mysis shrimp, which feeds the kokanee salmon, which feeds the Gerard River rainbow trout (which is where we get our Kamaloops in Pend Oreille Lake), and so on…

• 

  Bent on March 31 at 2:43 p.m.

  Ha… I was going to refer to you poolman…you’ve shown some cards on this issue too.

• 

  cantyoureadthesigns on March 31 at 2:51 p.m.

  “Bent on March 31 at 12:52 p.m.

  This phosphorus dishsoap ban is pointless. The wasterwater treatment folks will tell you that it will not make even the slightest dent in the amount of phosphorus that is dischared into the river because current technology already removes most of it from the treated water that is discharged into the river.”

  As is usually the case, it’s far more complicated than what you assert, Bent.

  “The average number of pounds per day of phosphorus entering the city of Spokane’s wastewater-treatment plant on Aubrey L. White Parkway has been lower over each of the last eight months than in those months in 2008 and 2007.

  Last month, an average of 1,522 pounds of phosphorus entered the plant each day, which was down 14 percent from the average of 1,769 pounds per day over the three prior years, the collected data show. That compares with a 7 percent phosphorus decline in September.

  “It does appear to be a slowly increasing reduction in phosphorus, somewhere around 193 pounds a day less than what we had before,” says Michael F. Coster, the plant’s operations and maintenance superintendent.

  That equates to a reduction of more than 35 tons of phosphorus a year.
  …”
  -Spokane Journal of Business

  While Spokane and CdA’s treatment plants can remove SOME of the phosphate, it’s a fairly expensive process, and so they generally only do it in the mid-late summer when river flow is low and Long Lake is most affected by phosphate fed algae blooms.

  As a practical matter, I would suggest that folks rinse their dishes off of most gunk as soon as practical after eating, and if that doesn’t work well enough, use a mix of phosphate detergent and non-phosphate detergent, perhaps 25-75 ratio.

• 

  poolman on March 31 at 2:51 p.m.

  Cindy - you just made my day… I thought I would never get to debate Indy on the phosphate issue again. I’m so invigorated now.

  Bent /Indy - Unfortunately I’ll have to take a rain check on this particular one. Other than to say - You win :)

• 

  toadman on March 31 at 2:55 p.m.

  Point taken Bent.. excellent information.

  Sorry Cabbage, re: the snobbery. Still, it just bugs me when people complain about petty things like “widdle spots on their widdle dishes.” Use Jet Dry…or hey, think of them as additions to the plate’s pattern, like I do! Who knows, someone might see the Virgin Mary in the spots on their phosphorous-free clean plate someday!

  ;-)

  As far as the costs thing, I think we’re just going to have to disagree. Insofar as I agree that Bent has good information, and it’s quite possible that there’s a better way to address excess phosphorous in our lakes an rivers than by what has been enacted in Spokane, I disagree that cost should be a barrier. But hey, maybe I don’t value money the same way others do. I’m pretty lame that way. I tend to think clean water, and clean air, is a basic human right, and is indeed, priceless.

• 

  Bent on March 31 at 3:03 p.m.

  CYRTS, that story talks about the input to the plant. Absolutely a ban would affect the amount coming into the plant, but the goal is to reduce the amount phosphorus in the discharge. The ban doesn’t impact those numbers.

  The wastewater folks I have talked with about this specific issue say the ban will result in a marignal cost reduction in the treatment process, and that’s it…

  If you want to address the environmental issues, ban phosphorus in lawn fertilizers. Liberty Lake wastewater district actually stocks it for their residents, I hear.

• 

  Cabbage Boy on March 31 at 3:08 p.m.

  Toad, I agree that clean air and water is priceless. But my point is that government bureaucrats trying to enact feelgood legislation just obscures the process. So all the sheep in spokane feel good about decreasing phosphorus by eating off dirty plates while they keep fertilizing their laws.

• 

  toadman on March 31 at 3:14 p.m.

  “So all the sheep in Spokane feel good about decreasing phosphorus by eating off dirty plates while they keep fertilizing their laws.”

  Maybe it’s a gradual softening of people’s ideas about doing the right thing. Maybe, when they finally ban phosphorous laden lawn fertilizers in Spokane, the backlash won’t be so bad.

  See? Maybe that’s how it works…little changes add up over time.

  I’m all about the silver lining, man.

• 

  Bent on March 31 at 3:23 p.m.

  I’d like to think that is what they were thinking too, Toad. But, I know the politican who made the decision to pursue the ban, and that was not the case at all.

  They also need to get those people on Long Lake (Lake Spokane) to form a sewer district and get off their septic tanks. The alage blooms in Long Lake is what got this started in the first place.

  Yet, they won’t tax themselves to address the problem, they just want everyone upstream to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to cleanup their lake so they can continue their lakefront living on septic systems, which leach thousands of pounds of phosphorus into the lake each year — with or without the dishsoap ban.

• 

  hmoffsuite on March 31 at 3:31 p.m.

  toad >>> “See? Maybe that’s how it works…little changes add up over time”

  That is what they call the ‘slippery slope’. And, they never go away, just get worse. Instead of passing a law, why didn’t they just inform the public as to the benefits of not using phosphorous, then let people decide how important it is to them and do the green thing. My guess is they would have had better compliance and not make such of a big deal out of it.

• 

  cantyoureadthesigns on March 31 at 3:35 p.m.

  Point taken, Bent, that the article did not mention specific numbers regarding phosphate loading in the discharge effluent.

• 

  Cabbage Boy on March 31 at 3:44 p.m.

  “Instead of passing a law, why didn’t they just inform the public”

  Cuz politicians work on misinformation and emotional response. How else would the get re-elected.

• 

  cantyoureadthesigns on March 31 at 3:49 p.m.

  Instead of passing a law, why didn’t they just inform the public as to the benefits of not using LEADED GASOLINE, then let people decide how important it is to them and do the green thing. My guess is they would have had better compliance and not make such of a big deal out of it.

  Instead of passing a law, why didn’t they just inform the public as to the benefits of not POURING USED MOTOR OIL DOWN THE STORM DRAIN, then let people decide how important it is to them and do the green thing. My guess is they would have had better compliance and not make such of a big deal out of it.

  Instead of passing a law, why didn’t they just inform the public as to the benefits of not SPRAYING DDT, then let people decide how important it is to them and do the green thing. My guess is they would have had better compliance and not make such of a big deal out of it.

  Yeah, sure.

• 

  hmoffsuite on March 31 at 4:02 p.m.

  cantread. Fewer personal choices, more laws, more government, the liberal way. You guys know better how I should live my life, and what choices I make, than I do. You under estimate the ability of people to do the right thing without the government having to tell them or legislate them. Maybe for businesses but not for individuals. Just put forth the information and educate the folks. Peer pressure would be more effective than a law that people defy and go around.

• 

  toadman on March 31 at 4:12 p.m.

  “I know the politican who made the decision to pursue the ban, and that was not the case at all.”

  Bent.. what have we told you about listening to politicians! It’s bad for your health.

• 

  toadman on March 31 at 4:16 p.m.

  “You guys know better how I should live my life, and what choices I make, than I do.”

  I don’t see the connection with this and polluting the environment.

  I just think people shouldn’t pee in the community pool. Know what I mean? If we need to make rules about NOT peeing in the pool, then so be it…this reminds me of a sign I saw at a friends pool when I was a kid… it read:

  “Welcome to our ool! Notice there’s no P in it. We’d like to keep it that way.”

• 

  Cabbage Boy on March 31 at 4:21 p.m.

  Interesting choices CantRead. DDT is one of those wonderful bureaucrat blunders. Guess it is better that people die of malaria in poor countries because of some junk science response to bird reproduction.

• 

  Bent on March 31 at 4:26 p.m.

  If only you knew Toad…

• 

  hmoffsuite on March 31 at 4:30 p.m.

  toad >> “I just think people shouldn’t pee in the community pool. Know what I mean? If we need to make rules about NOT peeing in the pool, then so be it ”

  If people are aware of the need to not pee in the pool, then they will likely decide to remind others, etc. That little sign you made reference to (pool) was more effective in solving the problem than a law would have been. Government just wants to pass laws. Sometimes, creative solutions are better than passing laws. We have too many laws.

• 

  cantyoureadthesigns on March 31 at 4:35 p.m.

  Actually, businesses don’t have to comply with phosphate dishwasher ban… As in commercial dishwashers in hospitals, restaurants, fast food joints…”too much of a burden” they whined. So, you might even be able to find phosphate dishwasher detergent in the quasi-business/consumer distribution places, like the URM outlets, Smart and Final, etc.

  The other thing that many people report good luck with is adding a tablespoon or two of baking soda to the dishwasher with every load. It functions as both a water softener and tiny “grit” for removing food particles.

• 

  toadman on March 31 at 4:36 p.m.

  But hmo, that sign was in fact, alluding to a RULE of the Pool that the owners had put in place. If we are the self appointed “owners” of our Planetary “Pool”, then not only should we enact laws protecting it from “pee” in our own country, but on a global scale as well.

  We’re all in one pool, man. Please don’t pee in it.

• 

  toadman on March 31 at 4:45 p.m.

  “If only you knew Toad…”

  I DO know Toad.. he’s a total tool.

• 

  Sisyphus on March 31 at 4:55 p.m.

  Gee Cabbage and I thought you enjoyed watching those eagles. You know, the ones that wouldn’t be there if DDT were still around. I can count the number of eagles I saw as a child on one hand. Now I can’t swing a dead fish without hitting one. And don’t take my word for it cause some smarter people than me counted them. What would explain that disparity? Junk science or God’s will? Is all science junk to conservatives cause you seem to only use the word in that context?

• 

  Bent on March 31 at 5:06 p.m.

  Good one Toad. BTW, whenever the kids would get in the hot tub or pool at our house, I would first mix in a little bit of anti-foaming solution that I kept in a separate bottle that I labled “urine detector.” I always made sure they saw me mix it in. Then I would tell them that if they peed in the water it would turn the water red and stain the swimsuit of whoever peed…

  Never had a problem…

• 

  cantyoureadthesigns on March 31 at 5:12 p.m.

  Always the simpleton, black or white, knee-jerk arguments. DDT and it’s various effects has been studied probably more than any other chemical in the world. And it IS STILL USED in many malaria prone areas, specifically for control of malaria carrying mosquitoes, to a very beneficial effect.

  However, it’s NOT used anymore as a widespread general pesticide in homes or in agriculture, because it’s very unhealthful when ingested, to humans and to animals, although it remains a matter of debate whether it’s a carcinogen or not. Most studies conclude it has a negative effect regarding human and animal reproductive and developmental systems.

  The widespread use of DDT caused it to lose effectiveness after a few years due to mosquitoes developing a resistance to it, and malaria cases soared back to pre-DDT levels.

  The TARGETED use of DDT as an effective tool in malaria ridden areas is happening today, and is increasing in the under-developed world. China and North Korea are the only known manufacturers of DDT today.

  “bureaucratic bumbling” and “junk science” are certainly easier to repeat ad nauseum, rather than actually gather facts.

• 

  Frum Helen Back on March 31 at 10:11 p.m.

  I will say over and over to myself that dirty dishes are beautiful. Bring on the “green” products. Dirty is a wonderful word and it’s natural too! And if they come out with only “green” deodorant, I will put Vicks under my nose. But I refuse to eat GREEN food.

• 

  Cabbage Boy on April 01 at 8:35 a.m.

  Still used in malaria prone areas huh? That is why they need those mosquito net beds in parts of Africa. That is why malaria is on the rise.

  Consensus and political suppression are junk science Sis. No doubt about that. Science has become a power tool for the political, and that makes junk science little better than alchemy. Just looking to make someone rich and powerful at the expense of others.

• 

  lew2nl on April 01 at 12:55 p.m.

  QUESTION: How many of the men making positive comments for using phosphate-free dishwasher detergents actually participate in the dishwashing process in their homes? This includes: removing dirty dishes from dining table, scraping large objects into garbage pail, rinsing dishes with water, squirting liquid detergent onto the dishes to remove grease, insert in dishwasher, fill dispenser with the great phosphate-free detergent, turn on machine, remove dishes from dishwasher at end of cycle, place dishes in appropriate cupboards.

  PLEASE list the brand names of phosphate-free detergents that really work for you so I won’t waste $$$$$ purchasing detergents that don’t work. Thank you.

• 

  toadman on April 01 at 1:03 p.m.

  lew2nl - I do a lot of the dish washing in our house. I have done everything you list above. I did all of that last night, in fact. We use the soap pictured above. Our dishes aren’t perfect, but I find them to be clean and relatively spot free when we couple our soap with Jet Dry.

  Still, as mentioned in the thread above, it may not be just the detergent that is the culprit. The water itself might be giving you fits.

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