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D.F. Oliveria is a columnist and blogger for The Spokesman-Review. Huckleberries Online was judged the best 2008 Idaho newspaper blog by the Idaho Press Club. And the best 2007 news blog in the Pacific Northwest by the Society for Professional Journalist. Print Huckleberries is a past winner of the Herb Caen Memorial Column contest by the National Association of Newspaper Columnists. The Readership Institute of Northwestern University cited this blog as a good example of online community journalism.
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Whippersnapper on May 03 at 12:57 p.m.
Your poll is part of the vagueness of this whole issue. What is torture? The Democrats want to wrap it all into one issue and hang it around Bush’s head. To Bush’s credit and shame, his administration tried to define it down to the letter. Your poll ignores all the points and asks a simplistic question.
Nick_Adams on May 03 at 2:05 p.m.
Waterboarding is torture.
Although watching the Mariners play baseball in the sunshine in Seattle while it pours down rain in Boise is close.
They’re down 0-3 in the top of the 4th.
Charlie on May 03 at 2:05 p.m.
Whippersnapper poses the question, “What is torture?” All kidding aside, for me it is the fear of falling from high places. The closer I get to the roof eave, the more my heart races. If I were forced to stand on a high place it would be torture to me. The Sears Tower is putting in a glass floor on one of their observation decks, me standing on it would not be pleasant. The funny thing about me, I love to fly, in an airplane, no problems. Go figure!
Sisyphus on May 03 at 2:29 p.m.
I fail to see how it is to Bush’s credit to even ask the question Whipper. In fact, Bush stated repeatedly that we do not torture and then proceeded to make a semantic mockery of the term in secret. The fallacy of his assertion is only now becoming self apparent through disclosure of the memos and we as Americans must make sure it never happens again.
But please, go for it. To what ‘points’ do you refer?
hmoffsuite on May 03 at 2:59 p.m.
Sis. More than likely, it will never happen again. Does everybody feel better now? The obvious problem is, of course, that those that wish to destroy America play by their own rules and will not back off because we are nice guys. Lets only hope that our intelligence doesn’t suffer. Should events transpire that appear that might have been stopped, and weren’t, will be forever accountable to Obama. If I were you guys, I’d just cross my fingers hoping nothing ever happens.
spokelooneh on May 03 at 3:03 p.m.
What is, and is not, torture is well defined in the Army Field Manual (FM) 2-22.3, “Human Intelligence Collector Operations”.
Now here’s a scenario for ya’ll. Let’s say (even though they’re a 1 in a million scenario) you have a real ticking time bomb scenario. You’ve done everything you can to the suspected perp, including torture, which you know you may have to answer for at some point, you might be in legal jeopardy because of torturing somebody.
It doesn’t work, the perp won’t say a damn thing.
You’ve also got the perp’s 14 year old daughter in custody, though you know she doesn’t have any knowledge about the pending ticking time bomb scenario. But she may have other information about a crime committed or being plotted, so you’re going to question her at some point after the existent situation is resolved, though she might just lawyer up and remain silent.
You tell the perp you’re going to torture his daughter, unless he talks. You torture the daughter, IN FRONT of the perp, and at some point the perp can’t stand what he sees happening to his daughter, and gives up the information to stop the ticking time bomb situation. Bomb situation is diffused.
Is that morally justifiable? Is that legal? Does the State owe any recourse to the daughter? Does it depend on how many lives were saved, say it was 500K for nuclear bomb in a major city? What if it’s a bomb planted in say, the Spokane Arena to go off in the middle of Shock game, killing thousands?
What if it’s just a small conventional bomb planted in some random building like a Target that if it goes off, say a dozen people will be killed, does that make it justifiable? What if stopping the plot saves just one life of some ordinary citizen, were the authorities justified in torturing the perp’s daughter to get the info from the perp that allowed the police to diffuse the bomb?
spokelooneh on May 03 at 6:21 p.m.
“The obvious problem is, of course, that those that wish to destroy America play by their own rules and will not back off because we are nice guys.”
-HMO
That’s true, there is X amount of fringe radicals that wish to destroy America. Including foreigners and domestics.
The policies of torture by the Bush Administration have resulted in (X + unknown exactly) MORE people who will play by their own depraved rules and attack American interests.
Why in the world would we want to continue such policies that result in MORE people that wish to “destroy America”?
There is a very positive, motivating story to tell about the USA, warts and all, that can and should be that shining city on the hill, and be a example of true democracy, something we wish to spread, anywhere, and everywhere. Not perfect, no, but learning from its mistakes.
Torture negates that positive influence, completely.
hmoffsuite on May 03 at 6:42 p.m.
spoke >> “Why in the world would we want to continue such policies that result in MORE people that wish to “destroy America”?”
Most of the world population is far from wanting to destroy America. It is those radicals that you speak of that are the problem. It only takes a few and they aren’t going to like us regardless of what we do as a Country. They are way beyond that. So, your position is notable but has nothing to do with those that are seeking to destroy us. ANYTHING we do will not change the risks we face. Being nice just might make it easier for them.
spokelooneh on May 03 at 7:08 p.m.
You MiSSED the point, entirely, HMO. Do you not understand the LOGISTICS involved in following every anti-American entity? The MORE there are, the MORE the threat.
On balance, America’s torture of people, many for no good reason at all, INCREASES the amount of radicals that want to do the US harm. And does NOTHING to protect America from radicals who wish to do us harm.
WHY turn a few radicals into many? More radicals INCREASES the risk that American interests face.
Torturing only INCREASES such terrorists. The hard core terrorists have NO fear of death, making more of them is a suicide pact.
hmoffsuite on May 03 at 7:25 p.m.
spoke. I think there are a finite number of those that wish to do us harm. I see it as being sort of binary. Those that do, their minds are already made up. I don’t see a huge number of terrorists being generated from a lack of respect for us on the torture matter. I think the biggest benefit of our outlawing torture is that it makes the liberals feel good. Sorry.
Phaedrus on May 03 at 9:43 p.m.
More than likely, it will never happen again.
On what do you base this statement?
Nick_Adams on May 03 at 10:24 p.m.
@hmoff: Torture has been outlawed for a long time in this country. In fact, we prosecuted the Germans and Japanese over just such matters. Waterboarding has been recognized as torture since the Spanish Inquisition. The Chinese used it on Americans during the Korean War. The North Vietnamese also used it on servicemen like John McCain.
Americans have always been a little more bloodthirsty than we’d like to admit. We like the whole “Dead or Alive” mindset. Frontier justice. We’ve believed, since inception, that our mission as a country is on the side of the angles. That belief allowed us to treat Native Americans abominably. That belief allowed slavery to divide us. That belief allowed the subjugation of minorities and women for generations.
All this, in spite of the fact that we founded our nation of the loftiest of principles. In spite of the fact that we have held ourselves up as a beacon of liberty, freedom and justice for 200+ years. We’ve made mistakes and will continue to do so. However, we still remain the greatest country on earth. We provide hope for millions. Our beacon may be dimmer but it still shines brighter than any other.
Torture diminishes us.
Churchill, who held more than 200 detainees while London was undergoing the Blitz and Britain was being bombed to rubble, said it very simply: “We do not torture”.
President Obama reinforced this last week. Torture corrodes the character of our country.
I like being one of the good guys.
spokelooneh on May 04 at 1:00 a.m.
“hmoffsuite on May 03 at 7:25 p.m.
spoke. I think there are a finite number of those that wish to do us harm”
Ummmm, no. Under the GWB administration, numerous polls showed increased hatred/disapproval among those (growing numbers) who would do harm to the US people and/or our interests.
hmoffsuite on May 04 at 5:30 a.m.
Phaedrus >>> “More than likely, it will never happen again.
On what do you base this statement?
We now have a kinder and gentler administration. Haven’t you heard?
Phaedrus on May 04 at 7:28 a.m.
We now have a kinder and gentler administration. Haven’t you heard?
I have. Bu what happens when a future administration is not as humane? Legal steps must be taken to insure this does not happen again and that there are penalties in place if it does. We do not torture is not a statement subject to qualifiers.