December 5, 2010 in City

Police involved in fatal shooting

Chelsea Bannach The Spokesman-Review

Tags:Amanda SchaferDave Reaganfatal police shootingfatal shootingJeremy GroomKenny Burkeofficer-involved shootingpolice shootingSpecial K Bar & GrillSpokane County Sheriff’s OfficeSpokane Police Department

Spokane police shot and killed an armed man outside a Hillyard tavern Saturday night.

Details were still sketchy late Saturday, and it was unclear how many officers were involved or whether shots were fired at police. The Spokane County Sheriff’s Office was investigating the shooting, as is police protocol. Authorities closed North Market Street in both directions near the scene at Garland Avenue.

Sgt. Dave Reagan, spokesman for the Sheriff’s Office, said police were called at 9:34 p.m. with a report of two men fighting in the parking lot at Special K Bar & Grill, 3817 N. Market St. They learned while driving to the tavern that one of the men was armed, Reagan said.

Police confronted the man with the gun, and that’s when the man was shot, Reagan said.

As authorities investigated late into the night, people who identified themselves as friends and family of the dead man began arriving at the scene. Two identified him as 34-year-old Jeremy Groom of Spokane, information that could not be confirmed through police.

Amanda Schafer, Groom’s former girlfriend, said he had three children, including her 2-month-old daughter. Groom had a concealed weapons permit, Schafer and other bystanders said. Other friends said Groom was an unemployed former Marine.

Spokane resident Kenny Burke, 20, said his sister called him Saturday night and handed the phone to a friend, who told him that his sister’s boyfriend, whom Burke identified only as Jeremy, had pulled a gun on police and was shot dead.

80 comments on this story so far. Add yours!

Johnny Bucket on December 05 at 7:03 a.m.
Anybody else out there wondering whatever happened to shoot someone in the leg or wound them somewhere else like on TV to stop a suspect? Why is there no community outrage at all of the police killings in our city this year. What is it now 9,. 10, 11, more?
I have a friend who grew up in NY city and lived there for over 30 years and he says that in one of the most dangerous cities in our country this rarely if ever happens. What is going on here? Is it poor training and a lack of confidence by police? Is it to save resources and to stop the situation quickest?
It’s the wild west all over again and a John Wayne “shoot first and ask questions later” mentality as the local law doles out death punishment to violaters.
lewis8457 on December 05 at 7:28 a.m.
It is called not caring about the publics perception.
kill, kill, kill, that is all they seem to do. Now the victim gets a box and the cop gets a paid vacation.
And the sheriffs investigate what a joke.
And the idiots of Spokane re-elected tucker, who hasn’t even found anything wrong with Hirzel shooting Scott Creach point blank in the chest.
Nothing will be done our Mayor thinks it is OK for police to beat a disabled man to death in a mini mart, what chance does the rest of us have? None.
lewis8457 on December 05 at 7:33 a.m.
They shoot to stop the threat and we have been told they are lousy shots and cant hit a arm or leg as on TV.
As in Scott Creach case he was only 4 feet from Hirzel when Hirzel shot him the chest proving once again they must be lousy shots cant hit a guy in the arm at 4 feet?
Also a very important point the police only care about themselves they have to stop the so called threat and in killing you they save themselves. Hell citizens are a dime a dozen.
Hi Bits!
TheRoyLarsen on December 05 at 7:43 a.m.
I saw this show on TV one time where they rounded all of the stupid people in the world and beat them with nerf bats. It was really cool.
misjustice on December 05 at 7:48 a.m.
Lol @ The Roy!
All that I can say about this most recent homicide is this; ANOTHER ONE?
greenlibertarian on December 05 at 8:19 a.m.
LEOs and quite a few other folks packing heat, good or bad, do not ever shoot to wound, but shoot only to kill. That’s how it is, period.
Do not let Hollywood fantasy cloud your vision, as this will only impair your ability to understand the facts, such as they’re known, at hand.
TheRoyLarsen on December 05 at 8:30 a.m.
Could it be that they are taught to stop the threat?
BitofBacon on December 05 at 8:47 a.m.
You know, I think I’m changing my tune on this idea of shooting people in the leg instead of center mass. If our police would learn to do this, then they could take them to the hospital where they would be taken care of on the taxpayers’ dime and then the few taxpayers who come on to the comments section could whine about how much money it’s costing them for the perp to be in the hospital. Sorry for the run on sentence but I think you get the idea. And then of course, since these perps have such a keen sense of hygiene, the leg wound would get infected and it would get really ugly.
dumfolks on December 05 at 8:52 a.m.
Are you people really that stupid. I tell you what, why dont you go out and confront an armed person who pulls a gun on you, try only shooting in the arm or leg to “stop” him. And then see what that person does with his weapon. I bet he won’t be trying to shoot you in the arm or leg. Preservation of your own life is the priority, not making the armed, potential killer feel safe. If you don’t want to get shot, don’t point a weapon at an officer, it is actually a pretty simple solution.
Ed Byrnes on December 05 at 9:15 a.m.
It is very premature to offer any judgments about this specific case. I cannot discourage such speculative judgments strongly enough. I similarly discourage discussing how individuals in other places have begun targeting local law enforcement (LLE) officers because it is contrary to restoring peace and trust in our community.
Nonetheless there is abundant evidence in the postings so far that us citizens have some really serious and persistent questions about how officer involved shootings (OIS’s) are investigated. It is important to recognize that these questions are not exclusively about LLE and include the County Prosecutor’s Office and the Spokane Mayor.
These questions arising so consistently indicates that a more credible and transparent review system for OIS’s needs to be implemented. With the encouragement of Brad, misjustice, Ron and cpd805 (who is an LLE officer who posed thoughtful questions and comments about this suggestion, so before assuming that all LLE officers are identical read his postings: http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/nov/07/life-or-death-in-an-instant/). I have been researching citizen review of OIS’s and am finding some approaches which would have credibility with both citizens and LLE. I intend to submit an op-ed article about this topic in January.
Since LLE officers are drawn from the citizenry perhaps it would behoove everyone to consider that none of us, including our LLE officers, are pleased with all of these recent OIS’s. LLE officers are not roaming around looking for conflicts to escalate, they are called in by our fellow citizens, so in addition to seriously discussing policy approaches addressing how OIS’s are investigated it is worth asking ourselves: Why are so many armed people in our community resorting to violent conflict as a means of addressing their problems?
Ed
TheRoyLarsen on December 05 at 9:27 a.m.
Why the breakdown, Bit? It seems now you’ll be recommending that police just hurt their feelings. That only works with the entitlement crowd.
Cheezwhiz on December 05 at 9:29 a.m.
I have an idea!!! How about using the tools and methods they already have? You know…. The ones that they raised our taxes to buy. Tazers, bean bag shotguns, tear gas, mace, and the myriad of other tools that have gone to the Island of Misfit Toys. And just what do those dogs do to earn their paycheck? I am just saying there are other methods to stop someone. I wonder if the officers gave this person the chance to put his gun down, or just freaked out? I suppose there are many witnesses. We shall see. The Seattle cop shootings got the cops scared and changed the tactics and methods to deal with threats. Even before that, they were shooting deaf kids with BB guns, kids with Airsoft guns, two guys with knives, an unarmed Shonto Pete, running for his life, and of course, the preacher on his own property, who had his gun put away in his pants. This should have stopped at Eagle Michael.
lewis8457 on December 05 at 9:42 a.m.
Did he point the gun at the officers the details are sketchy? Or do we just assume he pointed the gun because that will be the official story even though it may not have happened?
There has been so many shootings as of late the bodies are stacking up. We know in Spokane a hammer, soda bottle, knife, gun, rock are perceived by police has a deadly weapon and will get you killed point blank.
So even if you are just holding one if these items and you are confronted by police you know you have a big chance of getting killed. So would you use the weapon to defend yourself, maybe? (Shake the pop bottle and open the lid while pointing at said officer) We had a case not long ago where the kid dropped the knife but got shot 5 times anyway.
Bits the fact you don’t even understand that sending the guy to the hospital is the best scenario is just plain sad. That is all people like me want I want him to live so he can have his day in court. Isn’t that our right as citizens?? Isn’t that what we call JUSTICE!!!!
I do not want my peace officers killing me before I get to be judged in front of my peers that is my RIGHT! Or at least it was when I lived in Portland, OR. Spokane not so much.
I will gladly pay for that person to get better in hospital rather the high insurance premiums to pay for all the law suits.
bits i am really sad man i thought you were more then that, really i did.
fishinjay on December 05 at 9:47 a.m.
@Cheezwhiz
Every single one of the non-lethal weapons you mention can be overcome. In fact, police officers are sprayed with pepper spray with the sole purpose of teaching them that if you’re determined you can still function.
All of this “shoot them in the arm” or “use non-lethal weapons” talk is ridiculous. When deadly force is used against you, the only response that will save your life is to respond with deadly force.
When a suspect with a weapon makes the choice to threaten the life of a police officer, I would prefer the suspect go down rather than the cop that was called in to defuse the situation. The suspect has control of the situation when the cops arrive, and the suspect has the CHOICE to either escalate the situation or drop the weapon.
When you point a gun at a cop, you have to know how that is going to end.
lewis8457 on December 05 at 9:49 a.m.
All the people who don’t think we have a problem voted for Tucker.
and that my friends is just plain sad.
I wonder what kind of kick back the SPD gets from the funeral homes?
de3 on December 05 at 9:51 a.m.
Could the perhaps numerous officers who are all out on “administrative leave” over the last half dozen shootings perhaps be re-assigned to drive snow plows?
BobDog on December 05 at 9:54 a.m.
Johnny Bucket…You have got to be kidding me?! First, your friend in NYC, either needs to wake up, not be your imaginary friend, or become truthful. Rarely happens. 105 police shootings in 2009, which was a “low”. And As Seen on TV? No law enforcement agency trains to aim for arms, or legs. You shoot to stop the threat, not to try and hit a forearm, which is moving, in the dark, so they have a huge chance of missing and the guy kills someone. I realize it is SPD’s fault. They were going through Hillyard, looking to do a “drive-by”. The poor armed guy fighting by the tavern is not the cause. Change the channel from the police shows, to the Disney Channel. Sure, it’s not as exciting….but probably less fiction.
herewegoagain on December 05 at 10:05 a.m.
KILL, KILL.” And I started jumpin up and down yelling, “KILL, KILL,” and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down
yelling, “KILL, KILL.” And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, “You’re our boy.”
zelda on December 05 at 10:10 a.m.
Man shot in drunken Saturday night brawl outside tavern on Market Street in Hillyard. Geez, what are the odds? Who’d have thought?
I’ve reached the point now where all I can do is shake my head. Spokane has serious, serious problems. With the exception of some enclaves on the S. Hill, far N. Side and S. Valley, Spokane is grindingly poor and these things are going to keep happening.
Sign of the times. (not that things have ever been good in Hillyard.)
There are now so many cops investigating other cops involved in shootings, it makes me wonder how many are left to do regular police work.
Coffee on December 05 at 10:15 a.m.
dumfolks….
Were in the printed story does it say the dead man pointed his gun or fired it at any officer?
It could have been that the police dispatcher just past on that he had a concealed weapons permit and when he was reaching for the gun to disarm his self they shot him or they could have just shot him and then checked for the gun.
liarsinnews on December 05 at 10:28 a.m.
Its obvious to me, most of the comments regarding shoot him in the leg, arm etc, have never fired a hand gun. Unless the officers have a 8 inch barrel, which they don`t, and your life is in danger, you aim your hand gun at the largest target, i.e. the body, notwithstanding, a second shot to make sure you hit your target. I`d suggest you might want to go to the shooting range on Freya and check out what I`m saying. My residence is protected by a S&W. If, and heaven forbid, of a home invasion, where I have to use it, the coroner will be calling the funeral parlor to pick up the corpse.
liarsinnews on December 05 at 10:38 a.m.
Addendum: I have no idea without facts if the shooting was justified. I`m not judging what happened. I`ve opined what I do know about hand guns. Lots.
SRugerEsq on December 05 at 10:45 a.m.
If ever approached by Spokane cops, I recommend dropping your pants to make sure they can see you don’t have a concealed weapon in your butt crack.
misjustice on December 05 at 10:53 a.m.
CheezWhiz said: And just what do those dogs do to earn their paycheck? Well, they are out there protecting idiots like you & Lewis from yourselves.
It’s sad another person has been killed but when you carry a gun & wave it at anyone…..that is at ANY ONE PERSON…… (officer or not), you get what you ask for.
Albert on December 05 at 11:09 a.m.
Good morning all. First we need to wait for the facts and/or “initial reports” from the on site investigators. I’ve had “a bit of training” in this area, (25 years), to include FBI weapons training school instructor status - not trying to impress please. The point: “Shoot - don’t Shoot” is determined IF the person HAS a firearm in their hand. Officer survival dictates, without exception, that deadly force is warranted. Add alcohol to this “fight in progress”, the officers are going to be on extra alert for a potential Officer Safety challenges. If Mr. Groom had a firearm in his hand when the officer(s) approached, as may be noted within the witness statements, then there can be no question as to the final outcome. Either drop the weapon immediately, or follow very detailed “enhanced training responses”, or the door is closed for eternity. Alcohol is a deadly enhancement and offers very little in return, when one’s mind is numb, our understanding of commands is blurred, and our responses are corrupted.
Spokane is turning into a violent town. This time period to include New Years holidays, the police will be on a higher alert - because of alcohol and/or drug related responses. We all should keep this in mind, including a routine traffic stop. Keep both hands at the top of the steering wheel, remain calm, and civil. If a cop comes to your door, or meets up with you in a public place, fold your arms in front of you and do not make any quick moves. Calm and civil should be the response for everyone anyway.
oneanddone on December 05 at 11:27 a.m.
Lawd almighty. Such obliteration of the king’s english. Come on people. If you’re going to give us the benefit of your thoughtful opinion, the least you can do is use the right words and correct syntax. If not? Then shut the hell up.
NATEG on December 05 at 11:33 a.m.
Considering the fact that there are little-to-no facts about this shooting and yet people are already slamming the police, I guess my question to Lewis and others is this: Is there any situation in which the police could be involved an a fatal shooting and you wouldn’t complain about it? There have been several shootings (Dodd, Corperon) that were absolutely 100% justifiable but yet you people try to find any possible negative thing to say. If you want any kind of credibility in these conversations you should try being objective and reasonable. I won’t hold my breath.
Elloki on December 05 at 11:53 a.m.
It is disappointing that many of you pre-judge the police before the facts are even known. Many of you bash the police just because you don’t like them, have police contacts, etc.. You should really step back and view things with an unbiased view, which many of you can’t seem to do. The local media, who is well known for spreading lies and misinformation, surely does not help. Wait for all the facts, then make a decision. If you are armed and confront an officer, or refuse their commands, you are asking for problems. Do what the police tell you and you will have no issue other than some minor inconvenience. From what I have seen, all of the recent shootings (Creach, Dodd and the one up North) have been well justified. You need to take emotion and bias out of it.
Secondly, please stop with learning what you think you know about police work on TV. Just because you see it done on TV does not mean that’s how it really is. Police shoot to stop the threat. It can be very difficult to shoot an arm or leg, as some of you had suggested, especially if it is moving. I would venture to say that those making that statement have never shot a weapon, much less at moving targets while under the stress of an armed confrontation for your life. Anybody who is shot in the arm or leg can still fire their weapon. Often those shot in the body still resist and do not die. Don’t be so naïve and try, for once, to wait for the facts before assuming anything. I have confidence that in all the recent shootings, both agencies will conduct a fair and thorough investigation. To the police and Sheriff, thank you for what you do and the things you have to tolerate, such as these blogs. You have a tough job.
hardwroc on December 05 at 11:56 a.m.
At least this time the fatality was NOT the result of holding a plastic bottle of soda.
A guy with a gun IS a threat to shoot YOU and KILL YOU, so, why again, would you “shoot to wound”? Will HE return the favor? Will you then have a contest to see which one of you “wounds” the other bad enough to quit? Do you take turns, or just each shoot when inclined?
OR, do you do like they taught in the USMC and END the threat with a fatal shot?
PEOPLE need to learn to follow instructions from ARMED POLICE shouting orders at them. It makes sense, to try to live through the confrontation with NO HOLES in your body.
drb2010 on December 05 at 11:59 a.m.
Well, being a CWP holder myself, I’m positive if someone points a firearm at me, in a threatening manner, I am going to terminate that threat instantly. The perpetrator is not going to have the opportunity to sue me, because I wounded him, while I was defending myself.
healinhand on December 05 at 1:09 p.m.
If this keeps up…..you will start to see cops getting shot….It`s very sad
misjustice on December 05 at 1:13 p.m.
It’s nice for a change to see more people defending the officers than those bashing them. But then, those that are trashing to officers are the same ones that always trash them. Their credibility has gone out the window!!
PhiltheBibliophil on December 05 at 1:13 p.m.
My wife and I are old, 70’s white people. We served a stint at the embassy in Moscow in the 70’s. Although I have never had so much as a parking ticket in my life, everytime I see any police in this town, I absolutely fear for our lives. People, I know we have alot of East-bloc people here, but this is NOT Russia! The Police Department is not the KGB, although I’m starting to wonder who these peoples “handlers” are! This is past wrong and it is absolute past time for there to be a Federal investigation. I pray to God, you are not next!
misjustice on December 05 at 1:27 p.m.
And Phil is yet another of the old world people from North Idaho. To make a statement about how he fears for his life is just asinine. If someone hasn’t so much as had a parking ticket, I’d say they have nothing to fear but their own imagination.
eagleproducer on December 05 at 1:46 p.m.
Center mass.
Tap twice.
Those apply when faced with lethal force. I’ve had training similar to what police receive in regards to use of lethal force and center mass is SOP and should be.
I know, I know, guns don’t kill people…
Ron_the_Cop on December 05 at 1:58 p.m.
My two bits.
We don’t know the facts yet, so don’t jump to conclusions. Shooting to wound is a TV fantasy/fiction. Don’t handle a gun in a threatening or furtive manner around a police officer PERIOD! Do what you’re told to do. Be very deliberate in your movements with the gun telling the officer before you move.
As Brad, ED and others, I have serious issues with the manner OIS investigations are done. OIS require A+ level work for all the criminal, IA, and related civil issues. The one case I’m researching, the Creach OIS, there are many things I would have done in the criminal investigation before I would have been satisfied and handed it off to the prosecutor’s office for review. This has nothing to do with whether I believed it was justifiable homicide let alone the civil ramifications. There are still many things that need to be done during the Internal Affairs investigation once Tucker makes a filing decision. Of course the snow will have melted before he gets around to making a decision.
My issues center on the police command staff and their leadership more than these individual shootings. The “Cage Fight” over the Creach shooting by the police brass is illustrative on my concerns. We should demand excellence in these investigations and not hurry the investigators because of political considerations - the race between Tucker and Malone.
Scoutster on December 05 at 3:17 p.m.
I have no comment on the incident as I don’t have a clue what happened.
Unfortunately, even if these officers operated totally by the book, the Guild, the SPD and the SCSO hierarchy have made it so every incident’s inquiry is in-credible.
The kneejerk police defenders like to assume people who fear the police or are suspect of the officer involved protocol are nothing but misanthropic dopers living in Mom’s basement. They are simply in denial.
LE in this community has an public image problem. They can blame the public or fix the problem. Those are the choices.
lowtechmaster on December 05 at 3:29 p.m.
The problem: Spokane citizens do not belief that officer involved shootings are investigated fairly, thoroughly, and openly. The Spokane Police investigate the Sheriff’s forces, and the Sheriff’s forces investigate the Spokane police—see anything wrong with such a cozy set-up? The officers have several days before they are required to speak—time to see an attorney and get a story established? Then the County Non-Prosecutor “Tuckers away” all cases related to officer involved shootings.
The solution: A Review Board which includes a majority of civilians (say 5), a representative from law enforcement, and a representative from the city, and which is advised by an attorney. The attorney could be selected from a panel of half-a-dozen, or the attorneys could be appointed on a rotating basis (often the way arbitrators are selected). If law enforcement officers do not want such oversight, they should go elsewhere.
Law enforcement personnel have a very difficult and dangerous job, one for which they are fairly compensated. In most instances, they do their job exceedingly well. But they are human, and humans are subject to mistakes, particularly when emotions control reason. If an officer makes a mistake, s/he should not be summarily drummed out of the force. But the victims (and their families) of officer involved shootings also have rights.
If officer involved shootings were reviewed fairly, thoroughly, and openly, the citizens of Spokane would regain their faith in law enforcement. And we would all be better off than we are now.
BitofBacon on December 05 at 3:47 p.m.
My faith in law enforcement is not shaken in the least bit.
sean96 on December 05 at 5:34 p.m.
When is the community going to rally against these idiots?
BitofBacon on December 05 at 5:39 p.m.
Joe, you should not talk about Lewis and TheRoyLarsen like that.
Elloki on December 05 at 6:01 p.m.
But but but, that’s not how they do it on TV………..In every recent shooting (Excluding the WSP accidental), the suspect had a gun or a knife, wonder where the problem is. Lets put the blame where it belongs, on the people who are armed and won’t follow the directions of the police. Funny, not one recent shooting where the suspect was unarmed. Hmmmm, kinda tells me something. Some have expressed concern as to who investigates who. What would you propose? WSP? They still work with the local officers on a daily basis? What other local agency should investigate? I have no doubt that SPD and SCSO do a good and thorough investigation. Both SPD and SCSO have a shooting policy where all 3 agencies participate (WSP, SPD and SCSO), that’s about the best scenario. Then, the department does an internal review (IA) and a shooting review board. Then the prosecuting attorney reviews it. I find that to be a thorough and credible process. Maybe Wal Mart security should investigate???
Elloki on December 05 at 6:04 p.m.
On a final note, maybe the SR should not report it as “Police kill man outside bar” or “Police kill pastor”, etc. and start reporting it accurately as “Officer defends self in shooting” or “Officer forced to shoot in self defense”. Nah, that won’t sell papers.
RICHTURBO on December 05 at 6:19 p.m.
To damn many idiots have cwp’s and don’t need a gun but the macho man’s small wee wee complex takes over and he’s packing a ROD
family_friend on December 05 at 6:26 p.m.
To all of you who posted your comments,
Did you think about the families of the deceased and the officer himself? You all have so much to say but none of you have any idea what Jeremy was thinking or what the officer was faced with. My daughter in Law is Jeremy’s sister and she is hurting enough. She and her sister have lost their mother 4 years ago and now their brother. My daughter in Law does not hate the officer her had to shoot her brother. She just wants to take his hands and tell him how sorry she is he had to do what he did to her brother. She is holds no ill feelings towards him so why should you. She understands this officer has to face every day of his life knowing he did what is did and will question all the time did he do right. STOP hating the office and STOP yelling about Jeremy. Try some compassion towards the families of this tragedy.
Marie on December 05 at 6:38 p.m.
family_friend
I’m sorry for your daughter in law’s loss.
Geturfaxstr8 on December 05 at 6:44 p.m.
Ex-marine trained to kill, alcohol, unemployed, handgun, fight, public parking lot… Hmmmm, do we hit him with a bean bag? Maybe we wait until he shoots someone else first? Or wait until he goes back in the bar and fires?
Where did this “shoot to stop” garbage idea come from? Without the sugar coating, there are too many hotheads, druggies and crazies in this town with guns. I feel better knowing SPD & The Ozzie Posse know how to shoot!
My sympathies to all involved, including the officer. Maybe all of you die hard cop bashers should refocus your efforts on the down falls of the mental health system. A very underfunded system. Likely everyone reading this deals with some form of stress, anxiety, depression or addiction. If not, good for you, enjoy your rarity. Violence and suicide are at all time highs. Veterans at the top of the list. These recent incidents are just a preview of what’s to come if something doesn’t change to help the “minds” of our stressed to the max society.
misjustice on December 05 at 7:03 p.m.
@ ebyrnes; I look forward to reading your op-ed piece. Additionally, I want to thank you for your continued research and work relating to the formation of a citizen review panel.
@lowtechmaster; your last paragraph sums up my feelings on officer involved shootings in the Spokane area.
@ herewegoagain; Arlo Guthrie, Alice’s Restaurant.
TheRoyLarsen on December 05 at 7:29 p.m.
Why should the police have a cornerstone on safety? If you are going to take on the police with a weapon, surely you require more than an overconfident blood alcohol level. Suit up with the best in body armor from DuPont or ProMax. No credit. Bad credit. No one will be turned away. Unemployed? Not a problem. The Department of Health and Social Services will purchase your vest for you if you meet the following criteria:
1. You have as much common sense as Lewis, and;
2. You or a loved you know has a public defender on speed dial.
3. You own all twenty seasons of Law & Order on DVD.
4. You have been previously injured by police.
Vests are flying off the shelves. So you must act now. Call today.
WTGorWTF on December 05 at 8:36 p.m.
**IF** this man did indeed pull a gun on the cops, then SPD had every right to open fire on him. Kill or be killed. But as per usual, we’ll have to wait for the details to trickle in on this one.
Weapons permit or not, isn’t it illegal to bring a firearm to a bar?
I’m having a hard time determining if it’s the cops in this town that are particularly trigger happy, or if we just have a higher percentage of idiots. Or perhaps a mixture of both.
Ed Byrnes on December 05 at 8:39 p.m.
This forum is indeed an active one. Here are some of my reflections, respectfully submitted:
Zelda is on to something when she discusses the grinding poverty in this town. Although many of us take a broader perspective about our lives we should keep in mind that when people are ground down by poverty they can indeed begin feeling like they have nothing to lose. Although the late H.L. Mencken accurately asserted that “The common argument that crime is caused by poverty is a kind of slander on the poor” we ignore the economic deprivation of our fellow human beings at our own peril.
Albert offers good ideas about how to interact with LLE officers in a town that is indeed becoming a more violent place.
Oneanddone correctly observes grammatical problems in many postings though I recommend addressing the substance of what is written in forums like this.
When law abiding citizens express fear of our LLE officers and deputies it is worth recognizing and discussing rather than dismissing.
Ron, Scoutster and misjustice make excellent observations about the process through which OIS’s are investigated. Although Ron and I may disagree about citizen review we concur that the investigative process is seriously flawed, this breeds suspicion about OIS’s among us citizens which ultimately harms the line officers and therefore needs a major overhaul.
lowtechmaster and I agree about citizen review and credibility so thank you for adding your voice here.
family_friend, I too am sorry for the loss your family is facing and appreciate your perspective, which humanizes this whole situation and I hope that influences others positively.
Geturfaxstr8 is right on target about our mental health system, both in general and specifically how mental health problems are handled in our local correctional and judicial systems.
misjustice thank you for your encouragement. Good pick up on the reference attribution for herewegoagain.
Please everyone recall that raising questions is legitimate and casting aspersions is not, since it is an en masse form of ad hominem attack. Also keep in mind that most of the questions, albeit sometimes requiring distillation, focus on the investigative and review processes which is different than focusing on LLE officers, individually or collectively. We are in this community together and need to work together to make it a more peaceful and just place.
Ed
Cheezwhiz on December 05 at 9:48 p.m.
The history of Spokane police killings has shown that they come up with a way to justify every killing. They have even let their habitual drunk driver go because they forgot to file the right paperwork. I can say that I am suspicious of any police killing after what has taken place. I am all for killing people who had it coming, but you can’t tell me that Eagle Michael was justified. You can’t tell me that it was justified in the two separate shootings of the guys armed with knives. You can’t tell me that Otto was justified. You can’t tell me that Shonto Pete was justified. You can’t tell me that Creach was justified. If a citizen was involved in any of these killings, they would be in prison. After their justification of these incidents, can you blame me for being suspicious of this one? Like I said, there are many witnesses to this, so we shall see what the facts are compared to the officer’s statement.
Cheezwhiz on December 05 at 9:59 p.m.
I forgot about the police shooting the kid with the airsoft pellet gun. Didn’t want to forget that senseless murder. Yeah, I’m angry when they keep plugging citizens. They have dogs and other means to deal with this. Use them, unless there is no other means to deal with it. Maybe there should be more dogs and less cops. I would definitely shoot anyone who was pointing a gun at me. Creach did not. The guys with the knives did not. Two kids had toy guns. Otto was unarmed. Shonto Pete was unarmed. This guy may have had it coming, but I am suspicious as to whether he intended to use it. Whether he actually pointed it at anyone, or was trying to put it down. We shall see.
BitofBacon on December 05 at 10:14 p.m.
Cheezwhiz-we can’t tell you anything.
Ron_the_Cop on December 05 at 10:38 p.m.
I agree Ed with your point as suggested by Geturfaxstr8:
“Geturfaxstr8 is right on target about our mental health system, both in general and specifically how mental health problems are handled in our local correctional and judicial systems.”
Frontline LE must deal with the breakdown of the mental health system on the street. Unfortunately guns, alcohol and drugs and acute mental health issues don’t mix well. The last three of four OIS involved some or all of these factors. I wouldn’t be so quick to lay the blame on law enforcement. In these cases LE was left with very limited choices perhaps with the exception of the rock knife. We still don’t know the full details yet of that OIS.
ZagChuck on December 05 at 10:45 p.m.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of ewach of the officers involved, and to the Grooms family as well.
The police can’t know what is in the mind of the guy with the gun; they can’t know how prepared he is to shoot them or others, or the working capability of a firearm in the hands of a suspect when they arrive on scene. They have to act on the facts presented to them at the time. Their job is to protect the public.
According to the witness, when the police arrived Groom had a pistol pointed at him, after they had been arguing in the parking lot. Police instructed him to drop the gun and he did not. They stopped the threat, before he was able to take the life of the person in his gunsights.
Their job is to protect the public, and that is exactly what they did, no more, no less.
When a suspect poses an immediate threat with lethal force, there is no sense in using less-than-lethal force.
Police officers are not paid to lay down their life, even though they risk it on a regular basis.
I wonder how many people who have posted negative remarks about the police would willingly go somewhere and attempt to stop an armed man in the middle of an argument.
nitro71 on December 06 at 12:41 a.m.
If people in this city would evolve beyond cro-magnon perhaps the police wouldn’t have to shoot so many of them. Unfourtunately the recent shootings have just enhanced the gene pool.
bszottlinger on December 06 at 8:40 a.m.
I certainly do not fear or hate the police, nor do I fear or hate the community in general, each is made up of individuals capable of doing good and bad. What I do fear is a community who relies on the police for protection developing such contempt for the whole of their protectors that the element of respect is lost for those that deserve it. The reverse is also true.
Strictly from an analytical standpoint if one were to compare the contempt demonstrated on this blog toward the police by certain community posters with contempt demonstrated toward the community by officers and their supporters posting here one would find there is no difference. Because the posters represent but a small segment from each group it makes it, very difficult to access whether or not this contempt has permeated the majority of the Spokane Community as well as the majority of the local Law Enforcement Community. My fear is that it may have. The question then becomes, how do we, each with a stake, begin the process of reestablishing the trust and respect necessary for all of us to live in the type of environment we all deserve.
I wonder if anyone actually believes that calling the police gun tooting killers in blue will solve anything. Similarly, does referring to community members as lowlife ill-informed idiots who should go out and buy protective vests really serve any purpose? Does it do any good for an officer involved in one of these incidents to blame a biased, self-serving media?
I for one am not happy with what I see of the process for dealing with incidents like this. I do not feel they are fair to the community nor do I feel they are fair to the officers involved.
Is there any middle ground here at all? Is anyone willing to admit that there is a problem? Does anyone have any legitimate ideas for solutions? On the other hand, will we all just keep on keeping on?
misjustice on December 06 at 9:27 a.m.
CheezWhiz said: The history of Spokane police killings has shown that they come up with a way to justify every killing. They have even let their habitual drunk driver go because they forgot to file the right paperwork.****************
The SPD nor the SCSO are the one’s that file the paperwork to charge the drunk driver. They write their report & give it to the prosecuting attorney. Take your blame to the prosecutors, not the officers that did their jobs & arrested the drunk.
Cheezwhiz on December 06 at 9:47 a.m.
The only solution that I can see would be for the powers that be, to quit calling every killing justified, especially when it’s obviously not. The citizens aren’t all ignorant. They know what is right and what is wrong. Look at the list of killings that have been justified and attempted killings that were justified. There is no accountability for the police. Even the drunk cop who keeps plowing into other cops and citizens is going free. Just a little accountability for their actions, that they require for the people they are policing, would change their public image. Diplomatic immunity for everything they do is putting the public into a rage. They should abide by the same rules as everyone else. They should be judged by the same rules as everyone else. In this case of shooting an armed man in Hillyard, it sounds like they gave him 2 seconds to make a decision, which in my opinion, is not enough time. People, especially when they are drunk and in a rage, can’t make logical decisions that quickly. My thoughts are that if he was given a little more time, he would still be alive. My thoughts are that nothing good happens when you call the police to solve your issues. I have had the police point their guns at me when I kicked my girlfriend out of my house. There was no violence, but they drew on me because they were told by her, that I had guns in my house. I walked out of my house to five cops pointing guns at me when I was in my PJ’s, and obviously unarmed. Just a twitch would have ended things much differently, and it would have been justified, because I made a furtive movement. That’s all it takes. Maybe just a little too much pressure on the trigger. Oops! That’s all it takes. “He reached into his waistband, and I saw the butt of the gun, so I fired.” I would end up dead, with a gun found near my body, that I never owned or possessed. Justifying all these bad shoots and killings is making me lose my trust. I would support them whole heartedly, if there weren’t so many blatant corruptions. Just a little accountability and equal justice is the solution.
Cheezwhiz on December 06 at 9:49 a.m.
The Prosecutor is a former State Patrol officer. They are all connected. Don’t kid yourself into thinking that they don’t have any connection to each other.
Ron_the_Cop on December 06 at 10:41 a.m.
Brad,
I think with can both agree that the issues we are raising here lie directly at the feet of police management and not with the line troops that some will belittle unmercifully.
I SAY IT AGAIN there are many fine men and women in local LE doing a very difficult job day in and day out. The root cause of these concerns, is all about effective police leadership and transparency in regaining the trust of the community in the actions of OUR POLICE.
As former Sheriff Tony Bamonte has said there is no need for civilian review boards et al if the Chief of Police and command staff are doing the job we are paying them well to do. The Mayor and City Council are those responsible to ensure that they are on behalf of WE THE PEOPLE. This is where the accountability must come from.
I will also chastise the electorate for returning Steve Tucker to office as Spokane County Prosecutor. Tucker’s absence in office leadership style and not holding LE professionally accountable for their work product is a large contributing factor e.g., Otto Zehm:
Steve Tucker for Spokane County Prosecutor - A mockery of justice
http://tinyurl.com/25kd3we
The “Cage Fight” as reported by KREM2 in my opinion shows that the premature hand off of the Creach OIS investigation to Tucker was all about getting Tucker re-elected rather than seeking the truth in this tragic shooting:
Spokane Police emails reveal “cage fight” over pastor shooting report
http://tinyurl.com/2585xj4
To all that want real change, it’s up to WE THE PEOPLE to effect that change. All the animosity expressed re these shootings from all factions needs to be channeled and directed at those who have the power to bring that change - Mayor Verner and the City Council. Until competent and an effective police command staff can be brought in to provide the necessary professional leadership and management, we will continue to have this polarization of the community and these endless debates that do little to resolve the problems.
As I’ve said many times before the reason that no change is in the offing in police leadership is that our city government has been so thoroughly co-opted and corrupted, it can no longer govern. The issue of the police and transparency of its actions is merely symptomatic of much deeper political/governmental dysfunction.
I’ve long had a punch list for Mayor Verner to effect that change. She is a strong Mayor, ran on a populace ticket and has the power to weed out the corruption that is rampant in our city government.
See my blog post that address these issues and more:
EXPLOSIVE - Chief Kirkpatrick - America’s Most Dangerous Cop as reported by Larry Shook
http://tinyurl.com/22td7z9
I find it very interesting that there is over fifty comments in this thread but on a very related issue re fraud/waste in City government that is costing the taxpayers of Spokane millions of dollars, there is only three comments. Why?
Fire Chief Bobby Williams should have been fired a long time ago. From these reports and my sources, Chief Williams should have been fired for either not recognizing this fraud or worse knew about it and tolerated/sanctioned it. Former Sheriff Bamonte has been actively working this case for at last four years and was just settled. Why was it left to private citizens to address this fraud and not our elected?
December 4, 2010 in City
AMR settles billing lawsuit
Ambulance company to pay nearly $1 million
http://tinyurl.com/2av6yoy
Retired SFD Lt. Bill Jackman who first broke the AMR fraud and the involvement of City staff and took real heat from City administration for doing so, just brought this new Mayor Verner watch site to my attention which has some interesting observations about our mayor:
The Unsustainable Mary Verner
http://tinyurl.com/2g3xd54
I will close with this, WE ARE THE POLICE and THE POLICE ARE US.
Det. Ron Wright (Retired)
Racingmom on December 06 at 11:22 a.m.
Hard to believe there is yet another officer involved fatal shooting in Spokane.
Spokane seems to be right on par with other cities with the number of shootings they have had this year - the problem is the other cities are LARGE cities - like Chicago, Baltimore, Philly, etc.
I ran across the article (link below) this morning and thought you might find it interesting. Seems Baltimore has a serious problem with police shooting people too - only the officers are usually off duty AND AT A BAR….
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101206/ap_on_re_us/us_guns_off_duty_3
Ed Byrnes on December 06 at 12:26 p.m.
Brad, I agree that vitriol from either side serves no purpose than to further polarize our already fractured community. I also agree that it is important to achieve consensus that there is indeed a problem so that we can resume generating solutions, we had a glimmer of hope in one recent forum (http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/nov/07/life-or-death-in-an-instant/) and I hope this can be revived in place of the dearth of solutions offered in this forum. I am most grateful to those who are proposing solutions.
Ron, I concur that the problem is rooted in leadership rather than the line officers and deputies. My time in Spokane, a community I love, leads me to regretfully appraise the probability of substantive leadership change as very unlikely. This is my reason for advocating direct citizen review of OIS’s. I agree with you and Sheriff Bamonte about the relationship between effective leadership and the need, or absence of need, for citizen review. It seems that we recognize the same problem and are proposing solutions that could be complementary to each other.
Let us all please move beyond our emotions and aspersions toward reason and solutions.
Ed
misjustice on December 06 at 3:17 p.m.
“CheezWhiz: Even the drunk cop who keeps plowing into other cops and citizens is going free. ”
Again…….why call him a drunk cop? He is an EX-cop. But he was/is a Realtor. Why not say drunk Realtor? Why? Because that doesn’t sell papers & it doesn’t get people all worked up. Why didn’t the paper say what the profession is/was of the person that was shot? Why not? Because it could have something to do with why the man was shot….. Just sayin’.
Also, I’ve said before and I will say again: “Those that throw stones at the officers usually have a vendetta against the officers & Cheezwhiz made my point when he said the officers drew their guns on him. See? He has had a run in with the law.
Goes to prove my point………
liarsinnews on December 06 at 3:38 p.m.
I posted a response yesterday regarding, that most of the persons posting have never fired a hand gun. I`ll stand behind my comment. I also said, I don`t have enough information to have an opinion as to whether or not the shooting was justified. My point was about hand guns and the use thereof.
Cheezwhiz on December 06 at 4:22 p.m.
Gramma, when you’re right, you’re right. He should have been described as a realtor…. or maybe, the son of a former police captain. That would have been more accurate to show where the favoritism came from.
As far as my run in, it could have been anyone in that situation. I have been a hunter all my life, and I know what guns do. I know it’s easy to pull the trigger, ESPECIALLY when you are loaded with adrenaline. I sure don’t want any cop pointing a gun at me and these days, with their fears, I would guess they set the trigger pull to be very hairy. Anyway, as I said, in my situation, there was no violence, but they were told that I am a gun owner, so they drew on me, even though they could see that I was unarmed. Could have been anyone. I’m not here to defend myself. I don’t need to.
My experiences with the police have been numerous. I used to shoot with them, at a gun range in the Portland area. I have heard their stories and am sickened by them. Anyone who would want to be a cop, shouldn’t be allowed to be. It takes a certain attitude that is the wrong attitude for protecting, and better suited to revenge. I have many stories, but they are beside the point.
What did you think about the new story about the slain victim? The cops never gave him a chance. Shot him before he had a chance to put his weapon down or even know that the cops were there. Maybe I’m psychic?
Dick, I have had many handguns. I sold them because I thought my hunting shotgun was the only thing I would ever need to defend myself. I am rethinking that. A handgun sounds better all the time. I’m thinking Smith and Wesson, Model 29, 44 mag. with a 4 or 6 inch barrel. Don’t have to jack a round in the chamber, and you don’t have to worry about the safety. Just pull the trigger. Don’t have to worry about whether the enemy has a vest on either. Goes right through it. Much more accurate than an auto too. Good choice? Maybe a Street Sweeper too. I think the survivalists may have been right all along. I’ve never had a desire to own an assault weapon, but it may be a good idea to rethink that too. Although Gramma would like to think that anyone who questions the police is a criminal, I am not. I can legally buy any gun I want to.
misjustice on December 06 at 4:40 p.m.
Well, dick, I post here and I have shot many firearms, including handguns; both as a member of the Armed Forces and as a private citizen. And if you click on my avatar you’ll see in my bio that I love the 2nd Amendment as well as the 4th.
The victim in the latest homicide by cop was a Marine and had a permit to carry concealed. The fact that he was a Marine also would indicate that he had been trained in weapon safety. That he would chose to carry and drink demonstrates to me that he disregarded his training and ultimately paid for that mistake with his life. A harsh penalty, in my opinion.
I continue to wonder how any “police” work gets accomplished with inter/cross departmental investigations, paid administrative leaves, and investigators time used to investigate cops instead of criminals.
Geturfaxstr8 on December 06 at 7:02 p.m.
@Cheesewhiz. If your personality compares to your verbiage, I feel strongly that you should never own anything more than a water gun.
Ron_the_Cop on December 06 at 7:51 p.m.
A new thread has started in a new article re the deceased in this case may have been suicidal.
See my comment in the new thread:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/dec/06/report-man-shot-police-was-suicidal/?comments#c228049
Cheezwhiz on December 06 at 7:55 p.m.
Geturfaxstr8, does that really make any sense in your lefty mind? I feel strongly that personality and verbiage have nothing to do with ownership of weapons. Mental illness does though, and maybe you should have someone put your sharp pointy things out of your own reach. For your own safety, of course. Keep a handle on your stress, anxiety, depression, and addiction. Maybe up your meds.
“My sympathies to all involved, including the officer. Maybe all of you die hard cop bashers should refocus your efforts on the down falls of the mental health system. A very underfunded system. Likely everyone reading this deals with some form of stress, anxiety, depression or addiction. If not, good for you, enjoy your rarity. Violence and suicide are at all time highs. Veterans at the top of the list. These recent incidents are just a preview of what’s to come if something doesn’t change to help the “minds” of our stressed to the max society.” Geturfaxstr8 on December 05 at 6:44 p.m.
Geturfaxstr8 on December 06 at 8:28 p.m.
Sorry Cheese but the cops have never shown up at my house with guns drawn, even though your story was quite convincing, NOT!
Cheezwhiz on December 06 at 8:49 p.m.
Geturfaxstr8, how old are you? It’s a school night. Better get your jammies on and head to bed. Go on, get to bed, little fella!
lewis8457 on December 06 at 9:12 p.m.
Cheeswhiz hit on the head, if the cops would have given us Jay Olson or Hirzel we would feel like they are playing fair. But when it is constant out and out murder and mayhem what are we to believe?
As i stand on the street corner and the cops are gunning down my neighbors am i really to believe they wont kill me too?
And if I am to believe where am i supposed to be pulling that belief from? from the murder of a friend years ago that still has seen no justice and never will!! while his murderers pull big salary’s at the Spokane no safety building?
In Chicago cops are getting shot right and left. In fact they call single officer patrols rolling coffins. I hope that doesn’t happen here but like it has already been stated and it is true we have a whole lot of rednecks with guns living in Spokane.
Spokane_Citizen on December 08 at 9:09 a.m.
As a former Marine (there’s no such thing as an ‘ex-marine’) I am deeply saddened by the death of a young brother, but he made the fatal mistake of putting the responding police officers in a situation that could not end well.
It would be absolutely impossible for the police to know the magazine or chamber condition of the weapon or that he was ‘just pointing a weapon at a friend’….which every NRA member, and certainly every former Marine, knows is a grievous violation of everything any responsible gun owner has had hammered into them. Guns are simply ALWAYS assumed to fully loaded. Had the police hesitated, and the young man managed to kill the ‘victim’ and quite possibly other people, the police would have rightfully been accused of neglecting their duty.
As for various posters demanding that the police utilize non-deadly force in such confrontations, such as shooting the perpetrator in an arm or leg (or tazer, bean bags, etc)….Dick is spot-on with his remarks about the difficulty for even highly trained handgunners to achieve such a dangerous and improbable feat. It would be nearly impossible to manage.
Like Dick, I’m a member at ‘Sharp-Shooters’…a handgun range….. have shot handguns, rifles, and shotguns all my life….and consider the idea of police attempting to solve disputes in such a manner completely preposterous. At best it would be a waste of precious time, and at worst offer an opportunity for the perpetrator to harm adjacent citizens or the police officers themselves.
All I’ve got to say is, rest in peace young brother, free from whatever demons drove you to your own destruction, as well as profound sympathy for your loved ones.
Patriot61 on December 08 at 10:42 p.m.
Lewis,
Please, please buy a gun and STAND UP to the “Blue, gun thugs” you’ve called them this in the past. Come out from the World of Warcraft and do real battle with your enemies. I’m sure that your character could earn valuable experience points. Or just send your RE-avatard. Stop mouth breathing and blow your nose, grab your gun and stand up, stand up I say. Show us the conviction of your beliefs…ooops you wetted yourself didnt you? Don’t worry Lewis you don’t have to shower with the older boys. Just ask mommy to make you your lunch and take a little napppy nap kay? You ignorant cave troll… Really it’s ok they will protect you anyway… unfortunately.
p.s.
I am not a “pig lover” as you accused me of, I’ve never even met your wife.
bszottlinger on December 09 at 2:50 p.m.
Patriot61:
It is comments like this that make me wonder where the law enforcement officers are that I so strongly support. One would think that at least one would stand up and say that comments like yours are unprofessional, out of line, and not at all representative of the vast majority of officers who serve this community.
Would you call someone out like this on the street? Would you call someone’s wife a pig on the street? On the other hand, would you just keep your hatred for people like Lewis built up inside until that one incident confronted you where you could no longer take it and you reacted with all of that built up hatred, anger, and distain when that one sorry soul did not show the respect you feel you deserve?
I just wonder, boy, do I just wonder.
John_Fever_Richmond on December 09 at 4:53 p.m.
@ bszottlinger - try to NOT show the respect they THINK that they deserve and die. Period.
arroyoribera on December 10 at 1:46 a.m.
Does anyone think that lightening is striking over and over again. You might want to listen to this KPBS news report from 2002. http://www.kpbx.org/audio/otr02/110otr.ram
KPBX audio from Jan 10, 2002 — These two reports, starting at 6 min 55 secs and at 11 min, 26 seconds), deal with how history repeats itself, “when lightening strikes twice/thrice and over and over again”, how the media plays into police PR, how tremendous restraint was good enough for AMTRAK in 2002 but not for the Spokane Tribe Offices in 2010, “police paranoia”, training gone awry, and police chief b.s. (in this case Chief Bragdon).
(If nothing else, listen to 10 minutes, 9 seconds through 11 minutes, 25 seconds. This is classic stuff.)
Eighteen months after this reporting, lightening struck twice within a week in September 2003 when Spokane Police shot and critically wounded 16 year old Sean Fitzpatrick in the face inside Lewis and Clark High School. A week later Officer Michele Madsen (wife of an SPD detective) shot Eagle Michael in the face, killing him.
And really, if your want true b.s., listen to the second report in which Nadvornick reports on training police in mental health (based on a Memphis, Tennessee model — another Chief Anne Kirkpatrick connection). Three years after the “training” and making these Spokane officers experts in “diffusing altercations in the field”, the police killed Otto Zehm. Five year later an officer in killing Zehm (Officer Dan Torok) killed Jerome Alford and in 2007 they tasered Josh Levy off the Monroe Street Bridge to his death (in an incident under direct control of Chief Kirkpatrick).
Compare what Chief Bragdon said in 2002 to what the SPD is saying now: (from KREM as reported at NWCN.com) — Spokane Police say it seems officer-involved shootings happen in clusters. There have been six shootings in three and a half months. Police reiterated last month that officers are not out of control. http://www.nwcn.com/news/washington/Names-of-Spokane-officers-involved-in-fatal-shooting-released-111645844.html
And it just goes on and on and on. Lightening strike after lightening strike.
Someone should really ask KPBX reporters John Vlahavich and Doug Nadvornick what they think about this KPBX reporting nearly nine years and multiple lightening strikes later. And I wonder what the Spokane medical and mental health personnel involved in this crisis training model think about this little experiment in turning police officers into mental health interventionists.
Stamp the file “Failed — Spokane, WA”.

http://www.kpbx.org/audio/otr02/110otr.ram
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SHmBHMMzEZ4J:www.kpbx.org/programs/inlandjournal/otr02.htm+law+enforcement+training+site+west+plains+spokane&cd=18&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
David Brookbank
Patriot61 on December 10 at 12:39 p.m.
Lewis started it…