Spokane7
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March 19, 2010 in City
Lawyer: Zehm in ‘excited delirium’ before police arrived
A lawyer for the City of Spokane argued today that Otto Zehm was suffering from “excited delirium” before the 2006 encounter with Spokane police that led to his death, causing “extraordinary” strength and stamina and explaining why Zehm allegedly refused police commands to drop a soda pop bottle.
Attorney Carl Oreskovich, who is representing Officer Karl F. Thompson Jr. in federal criminal and civil proceedings, made the excited-delirium argument in a hearing seeking a subpoena for Zehm’s medical records from a stay at Eastern State Hospital in 2000.
“For a month leading up to this particular event, Mr. Zehm had stopped taking medications for paranoid schizophrenia,” Oreskovich told U.S. District Court Judge Fred Van Sickle. “Whenever Mr. Zehm has gone off his medications, he has shown the same or similar types of characteristics. Our theory of the case is the use of force is justified based on the circumstances facing Officer Thompson.”
Assistant U.S. Attorney Tim Durkin responded that excited delirium is not a recognized medical condition. “This is a rather controversial topic,” he told the judge. “It relates to in-custody deaths that are otherwise unexplainable.”
Durkin said Oreskovich is seeking previous medical records as part of a legal fishing expedition “so he can show that excited delirium is why Officer Thompson had to use the unreasonable use of force. It’s clearly not admissible.”
Thompson faces felony charges of using unreasonable force and lying to investigators. His trial is scheduled to begin in June.
Durkin and Oreskovich agreed that the case will hinge on what Thompson knew at the time he entered the Zip Trip, at 1712 N. Division, after receiving a call from two young women who erroneously reported that Zehm had stolen their money from a nearby ATM machine.
Oreskovich said Thompson twice told Zehm to put down a 2-liter bottle of soda. Zehm first responded by saying “Why,” and then said “No” to the second command, the attorney said.
“Would someone who is faced with a police officer in his police uniform with a baton in his hand respond with ‘Why’ or ‘No?’ It’s consistent with being in excited delirium,” Oreskovich said.
Durkin responded that a store security video clearly shows Zehm did nothing but retreat until Thompson started beating him with him with a police baton. He also said the government can call witnesses who will testify that they did not hear Thompson tell Zehm to drop the bottle.
Thompson “admits he did not have probable cause to arrest (Zehm) when he confronted him,” Durkin said. “Mr. Thompson has his version of the events. That’s not consistent with what the video showed. It’s not unusual for an emotionally disturbed person to exhibit this level of strength.”
Van Sickle said he would review the four angles of the video tape and should rule by early next week to issue the subpoena or deny Oreskovich’s request.
Killing suspect remains at large 
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Scoutster on March 19 at 2:35 p.m.
What a crock…There is no such disorder as “excited delirium” except among cop lawyers. It does not exist as a mental disorder. Look in the DSM IV if you don’t believe me.
As to the other: “Would someone who is faced with a police officer in his police uniform with a baton in his hand respond with ‘Why’ or ‘No?’ It’s consistent with being in excited delirium,” Oreskovich said.
Sound like someone who knows the reputation of the SPD to me.
Lulubelle on March 19 at 2:54 p.m.
I, too, would have been “excitedly delirious” if I had been advanced upon by some big brute with a stick yelling at me……..and I don’t have a mental health disability.
Put Thompson away for the good of the entire community.
MrNatural on March 19 at 3:05 p.m.
Must have learned that syndrome from watching replays of Jay Olsen…This Oreskovich character pulls all the stops to win for his client…its hash marks like him who give lawyers a bad name…
ChefGus/ John Olsen on March 19 at 3:05 p.m.
In 35 years of medicine I’ve never heard of “excited delirium” and it includes 5 years on the King County Crisis Line with DSM manual in hand….
Mr Zehm’s “strength” if there was any … would be as a result of his Adrenalin pumped up as he continued to be attacked…. Just seeing an armed “hefty” Spokane Police officer coming toward me with a raised (illegal size) baton would get my heart pumping…
This continues to be a dark mark on Spokane’s history… anyone looking at the Video would be hard pressed to accuse Otto of being the one doing the agressive behaviour… dr john
ChefGus/ John Olsen on March 19 at 3:07 p.m.
It would be of great interest to me to have a blood test on the officer involved in any attack to screen for Anabolic Steroids/Testosterone levels….. I believe it was the police officer that was “pumped” up by prescription drugs that potentiate agression.. j
Scoutster on March 19 at 3:10 p.m.
Gus…
That’s a good point..are drug tests done routinely on officers involved in altercations and/or shootings?
If not, why not?
Not as easy as blaming the victim.
CharlesBillford on March 19 at 3:16 p.m.
2 words.
Scum bag
3 words
Shame Shame Shame
It should be noted that Sgt Torok was admonished 3 weeks ago in the public hallway of the Federal Court House after lying to the Grand Jury. His attorney warned him several times about lying to the Grand Jury and that it would catch up to him.
This was in regards to a phone call from Torok to Thompson the day afterwards, in which they conspired to “get their story straight”.
Diana on March 19 at 3:19 p.m.
Nice try, lawyer. We saw the video.
CharlesBillford on March 19 at 3:34 p.m.
Even better. Oreskovich is now trying to get a dead man to testify against himself.
Is he going to time travel that medical report from 2000 to 2006?
Lets hope U.S. District Court Judge Fred Van Sickle is smarter and less desparate than this nubbin.
It just shows how weak Thompson’s case is and how this scum bag is attempting to obfuscate the truth in order to keep this murderer out of the Fed pen.
Excited delirium should refer to each check Oreskovich gets from the Public Defenders office.
deltaelk on March 19 at 3:46 p.m.
I hate making comments on hearsay, but from what I hear, the cop is way out of line. The last time I was on jury duty in Kootenai County, this was on the policemans record of the incident. He described the defendant as 5‘8” to 5‘10” tall and approx. 165lbs. The defendant was 6‘5” and 270 lbs. and that was just a start of their stupidity. The cops in Spokane county and Kootenai County are idiots, probably not everyone of them, but generally idiots. Of course Zehm showed a hyper-state of being, he was being confronted by a cop who had just as high or higher state of aggression. I would be pretty damn wound up too, anybody would. He had a pop bottle for god’s sake, what do cops do when a guy has a real weapon? I cant believe cops in this area are so weak and unskilled. What would they do in a large city? The mayor, the police chief, they all need to be removed because they are not doing their job.
cbl99201 on March 19 at 3:57 p.m.
Using unneccessary violence is a trademark of police. We all know it, and wink at it, because bad guys don’t deserve any better. Well, Otto Zehm has paid the ultimate price for this view.
No conviction or settlement can bring Otto back to life. Perhaps we should rethink our attitude towards unneccessary police vilolence. After all, believe it or not, we or our loved one’s could quite possibly end up the victim of this ourselves.
Charlie on March 19 at 4:26 p.m.
If Thompson gets convicted as he apparently should, how about putting him in the prison general population. That would seem to be a just reward for killing an innocent person.
Truthhurts on March 19 at 4:48 p.m.
Pretty sadly funny to use a completely made up “malady” to defend the use of lethal force by an officer who had no reason to invoke lethal force.
Maybe “excited delirium” is a condition that overtakes police.
misjustice on March 19 at 4:53 p.m.
“Excited delirium” is a made up term used by the makers of the Taser device to blame the vicitms that die as a result of being tasered by their device. A quick visit to any medical site will verify that there is no such syndrome. Admitedly, it’s beautiful in it’s deception; blame the victim for their own demise.
Additionally, responding “no” or “why” to an illogical demand by police is, well, consistent with logic. In the mind of the deceased, he’d done nothing wrong and there was no reason for the police to accost him or make demands of him.
I’ll take the store video evidence over the lying testimony of the SPD and his fancy attorney any day.
God bless Mr. Zehm, his poor mother and the rest of his family.
misjustice on March 19 at 5:20 p.m.
Everyone wants to blame the officers. We still have innocent until proven guilty in our courts. When 12 people say otherwise, this officer is still not guilty. Also, read below & do some of your own research on the condition.
http://www.exciteddelirium.org/ From the University of Miami
Fact: ED is a medical emergency that presents itself as a law enforcement problem. - Early and advanced coordination with EMS is key.
Fact: ED is not easy to recognize. - Training is important so that dispatch or other personnel recognize behavioral signs.
Fact: ED containment requires backup personnel. - Do not approach until it is safe to do so and always ensure several officers are present.
Fact: ED victims exhibit superhuman strength and are impervious to pain. - Restraint positions and use of electronic control devices (TASER®) to override the CNS.
Fact: ED is a life-threatening emergency. - Get the subject into acute medical care quickly.
ALSO:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7608386
According to Dr. Vincent Di Maio, “What these people are dying of is an overdose of adrenaline.”
Di Maio was until recently the chief medical examiner for Bexar County, Texas. Di Maio says that he saw three to five cases of excited delirium each year, and that there are probably several hundred cases nationwide.
He says the condition typically arises after officers have wrestled down an uncooperative suspect:
“They bind the feet, and every one stands back and they’re panting. And then finally someone says, ‘He’s not breathing.’”
Diana on March 19 at 6:13 p.m.
Those “facts” are nonsense. “Excited delirium” is not recongnized by either the ICDM or DSM. Why do the only cases of “excited delirium” have to do with people who have been restrained by police officers?
And we are not “innocent” until proven guilty. We are “presumed innocent”. There’s a big difference there.
Did you see the video, gramma?
deltaelk on March 19 at 6:52 p.m.
I guess I could possibly see something bad happening to Mr. Zehm if he had a real weapon like a gun. Your telling me that the officer is not trained to deal with a suspect that is unarmed? He was unarmed, a pop bottle is not a weapon, maybe a glass bottle would have been, and only slightly more. And, if the cops are so knowledgeable on this “excited delerium” problem, then why would they let it happen. This whole episode could so have been avoided by the cops, you dont end up killing someone or letting them die because of a pop bottle. Thats like a Saturday Night Live skit, its a joke, the cops should be so embarrased and ashamed for letting it happen. The cops come across as so smart on the subject, yet they let it happen to a man who MAYBE was guilty of something, but he was not that dangerous. If the cop did in fact react in this way, he should fry in hell, and so should his supervisors.
Pat O'Leary on March 19 at 7:12 p.m.
Excited delirium? How about scared to death. A goon with an oversized club, a gun and a taser coming after Otto….thrown to the ground and hogtied. I think anyone who was totally innocent of any crime,would be a little panicky in this situation. As far as I can see, the cop asked no questions and just started clubbing this poor man for no apparent reason. He even admitted he had no probable cause for an arrest. This is the way people were treated in nazi- Germany. The cops in Spokane wonder why they get no respect? This, and too many other cases to enumerate, is why. They defend this kind of activity and cheer when one of the guilty is freed. And our mayor and police chief are no damned better. It’s pathetic!
Albert on March 19 at 7:26 p.m.
I have an extensive law enforcement background plus a 20+ years experience, thus I can truthfully and clearly state, that when the “officer” admitted that he lacked probable cause, he lost the case. In addition to excessive force under the color of law, the “officer” violated the civil rights of Mr. Zehm. It would be very interesting to obtain the “officer’s” in service records from his previous employment in California as a police/sheriff officer. Why did he leave his previous law enforcement position to come take a lesser pay in SlowCan? If the federal prosecuting attorney obtains these past records as part of the discovery process, which I believe he will, then a big surprise might be in store. If this was a local union backed judge, then the “officer” would skate the case, however we are now in the federal arena. All bets are off. The “officer’s” attorney may very well be grasping at straws. In the end, we all grieve for Otto who only said “why and no”. This good friends is what any person who would be confronted by out-of-bounds cop would do - including myself. “What is your probable cause” is the first question that anyone should ask - please keep that in mind that next time you are detained by law enforcement personnel - this is your reasonable right under the law.
deltaelk on March 19 at 8:09 p.m.
Albert, thankyou for your comment. You must not be a Spokane or Kootenai County law enforcement officer, they couldnt put together a paragraph like that. And I agree, its in federal hands now, so Spokane law enforcement is dead in the water…….maybe since the Spokane cops are backed into the corner now, they might suddenly come down with “excited delerium”, lets hope so.
misjustice on March 19 at 8:17 p.m.
Uh, let me guess, Gramma has a son that is a rouge cop or a relative that works for Taser?
All of her “evidence” comes straight from the manufacturer of the devices. Taser offers its “evidence” to cops/law enforcement entities that use their devices and later have to defend their actions.
And her last “Fact” dictum, “get the subject to acute medical care quickly” was not followed by the killer cop. Poor Mr. Zhem was kept hogtied and on his stomach for an indeterminate amount of time. No doubt, contributing to his demise.
Yeah, she’s quick to defend a rouge cop and no doubt dismisses the store video…makes one wonder why? I also wonder if she was the “Gramma” of Mr. Zhem how she’d be responding to this miscarriage of justice?
Oh, and as for her “evidence” from freakin TEXAS, the State that is renowned as the killing capital of the US…well, that is suspect as well.
misjustice on March 19 at 8:58 p.m.
Another thought, provoked by the title to this article…how could the SPD have “known” a “suspect’s” mental state, in this case “excited delirium”, prior to arriving on the scene, prior to their encounter with the “suspect”????
Just curious.
CharlesBillford on March 19 at 9:07 p.m.
Let me guess. Grandma is really an SPD officer under investigation who wears older women’s flannel gowns with his hair up in curlers while blogging and listening to Oprah talk about home remedies for curing hemmeroids.
Thats some credibility.
misjustice on March 19 at 9:16 p.m.
Yes. CharlesBillford has it on the nose. That’s exactly who & what I am.
BTW… What happened to the 2 girls that identified Otto as the person that stole their money from the ATM? I’m just asking???
deltaelk on March 19 at 10:09 p.m.
ok, so he is identified as POSSIBLY a person who stole their money, so your a cop, you see your suspect with a pop bottle, so you beat the hell out of him? If a person breaks into my house, I have to make a judgement what he is there for, if he is only there to take my wallet, I am legally not able to shoot him, I would like to and probably would, but legally I cant, now if he threatens me harm, thats another matter. Dont the police follow the same type guidelines? or do you treat a person who stole a twinkie from the 7-11 the same as a guy who murdered a busload of girl scouts. I would say, and its just a guess, the cop(s) way over-reacted to the situation. In fact, if anyone would have this syndrome of “excited delerium”, its the cop who did the clubbing and the others who participated in this “hog tying”.
crader72 on March 19 at 10:34 p.m.
Unless they fly in out of towners for a jury there won’t be a conviction. Spokane juries have a lower I.Q. than a truckload of rocks.
ChefGus/ John Olsen on March 20 at 6:21 a.m.
It clearly, on watching the video again.. appears to me that the aggressive behaviour of the officer is the problem.. and he likely is “raging” from some legal or illegal substance in his blood stream. Prior personelle records while germaine are likely not admissable ( why i don’t understand, any more than Otto’s medical records)
I am afraid that if I was faced with the same situation, I would “Fear for my Life”… and it would have turned out differently…. A large police officer obviously out of control and over reacting to me having a bottle of pop would be percieved as someone intent on killing me…. j
horse_feathers on March 20 at 9:04 a.m.
“Justice delayed is justice denied”
4 years of cover up and lies and failure on the part of those in the system such as the prosecutor, police chiefs (past and present), and the city attorney has brought us this monumental injustice.
Sorry Mrs.Zehm, not only for your loss but for the inability of this city to bring you justice, I am ashamed.
misjustice on March 20 at 9:06 a.m.
Hey, GRAMMA
The report of money being taken from women at the ATM was untrue/unfounded…the gals were scared and overstated their fear, made an inaccurate 9-1-1 call which ultimately ended with a man’s death…Mr. Zehm was found not to have taken anything from these gals and they only said that they “thought” he’d accessed their account at the ATM. Pretty fatal mistake if you ask me…
misjustice on March 20 at 10:01 a.m.
I know the report of money being taken was untrue/unfounded. This was discovered later. The officer didn’t have that knowledge when he approached Mr. Zehm. He was called to do a job about a theft & had 2 people pointing out the thief. How was the officer to know Zehm didn’t take their money? He didn’t & couldn’t know that.
It’s easy for armchair cops to say what they would or wouldn’t do. But until we are in a position to make that decision, I won’t & don’t judge the officers. It is a sad situation that a man died. It is also sad that Mr. Zehm did not just sit the bottle of soda down & answer the officers questions. When a person doesn’t have anything to hide, they usually cooperate with police when stopped by them.
I didn’t get to be an old woman & gramma by not obeying the rules. Too bad Mr. Zehm didn’t know that rule.
misjustice on March 20 at 10:23 a.m.
The officer that responded had a duty to assess the situation and establish probable cause. Many 9-1-1 calls are inaccurate or based on incomplete “evidence”, the officer in this case failed to assess the situation, he exploded and went out of bounds, and then LIED about the encounter.
But for the store video we’d not know how out of control the officer was…and that he LIED.
And just cause you are old Gramma doesn’t mean you are correct about this…you’re just, well, OLD …too bad the COP didn’t FOLLOW the RULES…it’s bung holes like him that give good officers a bad name…Oh, and did I mention that he LIED?
Suppose you have a defense for the LIES and the lying liar that told them also Gramma…??? Thought that lying was against the “rules”????
Loudin on March 22 at 1:56 p.m.
“Excited delirium” is a cop without a doughnut.
Seriously though: If we’re going to pay $108K per year to minimally educated civil servants (A.A. degree plus 720 of law enforcement training), I expect them to not kill innocent people. Don’t they teach integrity and accountability at the academy in Shelton? Or is it mostly about the “blue line”?
As I’ve told my wife and kids: If you get pulled over by an officer or deputy, hit the “record” button on your cell and drop it out of sight, on the floor. Too many law enforcement types with authority issues and high-&-tight haircuts make for a dangerous community…
eagleproducer on March 24 at 10:23 a.m.
While Thompson must be held accountable for his illegal conduct, the girls who LIED on the 9/11 call also need to be held accountable for their actions.
It is not okay to fabricate a crime just because someone with long hair wearing a leather jacket comes up behind you while using an ATM. The girls tell the dispatcher that Otto tried to get in their car while the surveillance video from the ATM clearly shows this not to be the case. There was a complete breakdown in communication between the 911 operator, the supposed ATM victims, the dispatcher, and the responding officers which should have caused pause for Thompson to get the story straight before running pell mell into the Zip Trip with beat down stick in tow.
For some reason these girls have been offered the cloak of anonymity and any attempts to learn and publish their identities have been met with stonewalling and claims of rights to privacy. I’m sorry, but when you knowingly mislead police officers because of your fear of “the other” and it causes the death of “the other” you are also partially or in this case, entirely responsible.
Furthermore, the 9/11 operator asks the girls if Otto is “high” or “on something.” I always thought the judgement of intoxication was a medical opinion that had to be supported with facts, not the opinions of teen age girls who didn’t even have in person contact with Otto!