Spokane7
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March 28, 2010 in City
Earth Hour event turns into face-off
Climate change backers, skeptics clash at City Hall
Global warming protesters generated a lot of heat Saturday night at the entrance to Spokane City Hall.
It looked for a while like candle-carrying environmentalists might come to blows with those who contend global warming is a hoax perpetuated by the United Nations. But the situation cooled a bit when police showed up and stood in the background.
“We are law-abiding citizens, trying to have a peaceful protest here,” said conservative activist Mike Fagan, who was frustrated as an environmental protester repeatedly interrupted the speech he was trying to deliver through a bullhorn.
The opposing sides were drawn to City Hall in response to Earth Hour, an international effort to draw attention to environmental concerns and call for a binding pact to cut greenhouse gas emissions.
Lights were switched off in some 4,000 cities in more than 120 countries for an hour Saturday, starting at 8:30 p.m. in each time zone.
The Eiffel Tower, Big Ben, Sydney’s Opera House and Beijing’s Forbidden City were among the landmarks that went dark, along with American icons such as the Empire State Building, the National Cathedral and Coca-Cola headquarters in Atlanta. The Capitol dome lights also were off in Olympia.
In Spokane, Mayor Mary Verner issued a proclamation supporting Earth Hour and encouraging city employees to participate.
Fagan, who last year ran for a City Council seat, accused Verner of “using city resources to perpetuate the falsehood of global climate change to advance her sustainability agenda.” His followers carried flashlights and spotlights, to light up City Hall.
Counter-protesters, meanwhile, shouted that science and youth were on their side.
For bystanders enjoying a warm spring evening, it was high drama.
Fagan, who earlier this month held a similar demonstration in opposition to health care reform, stood on a U.N. flag and led a chant of, “Hey, hey, ho, ho, United Nations gotta go.”
The man who most aggressively confronted him carried an Earth flag.
There were the obligatory signs.
From those who disbelieve global warming: “Freedom trumps sustainability” and “My SUV, my light bulbs, my property. Back off!”
From the environmentalists: “Stop ignoring it.”
And both sides cheered when the occasional car honked. There was no way of telling which side any of the drivers supported.
Craig Steel, a West Plains farmer, said he’s worried that the United States is “going down, and we’ve got to put a stop to it.” He blames the U.N., in part.
“They’ve shut down our mines, they’ve dynamited our smelters,” said Steel, 54.
Elizabeth Gulick, 21, said she showed up to support Verner. The Spokane Falls Community College student said the protest was worthwhile, though “I don’t think any sides were swayed.”
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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ChefGus/ John Olsen on March 28 at 6:36 a.m.
Wonder where John Ahern and Nancy McLaughlin were last evening…. feels like the racist attacks on the blacks in the South that I remember from the 50’s and 60’s. “My Property” “I own the world”… wonder if the old testament christians held a prayer service before staffing the barricades?”
Mob violence will likely result at some of these events… just hope it does not happen in Spokane. We are not Selma Alabama… John
leekinny on March 28 at 8:25 a.m.
Literalist interpretation of selected parts of the bible may explain some of what is going on with the heretical religious right in regards to their not excepting global warming. While the neoconservatives are happy once again to use conservative fundamentalist misconceptions in their favor it does not explain their own hostility toward global warming.
Greed does.
Science gets in the way of unscrupulous corporations ability to pollute with impunity. All they have to do is create enough doubt and suspicion about scientific results to the Republican faithful to allow them to continue raping and pillaging the planet. Once again the ignorance of their followers works to their advantage.
How much respect can they have for the people who dutifully follow every lie and spin they feed them? Neoconservatives must see them as a bunch of malleable fools. Liberals can educate and protest and explain, but, these people must develop the courage to open their eyes to the way they are being used. I have hope that one day the good Republicans will wake up to the knowledge of the way Fox news and conservative pundits in the media have been manipulating their emotions to suit their own selfish needs.
drunoff on March 28 at 8:46 a.m.
Wow that was quite a show. I got hit in the eye with a one of those laser pointer lights when I was walking by trying to get through the crowd. Those things will bout blind you. There were a lot of them on the environmentalist side. I guess they were trying to hit the U.N. protesters but their aim wasn’t so good. I stopped and watched a little more (from a safe distance:) and it got pretty heated. Guys kept charging over at the U.N. guys from the environmentalists side and had to be held back. Thought there was going to be a war for a bit. Big fun on a Saturday night.
peteroundy on March 28 at 9:13 a.m.
Incredible how blind, radical environmentalism has overtaken our country at a time when we have the most enviro-friendly legeslation in the history of our nation. Do you know what the spokane river used to look like? What the industrial revolution did to our water and air qualities. In the 40s there was a river that actually spontaneously combusted! Did you watch the olympics in china? Russia is full of nuclear waste and rivers in the middle east are toxic waste dumping sites. That pollution! The problem with you guys is you just dont know when enough is enough. You would risk our entire economy and standing in the world to save an owl. No body want pollution but you have to weigh cost against benefit and meet somewhere in the middle. Your irrational purley emotion driven arguements are factless and unprovable. And the scientist who you would refer to have been proven to be phonies.
peteroundy on March 28 at 9:20 a.m.
Strange how the the enviro-kids kept trying to charge the u.n. protesters. So violent. I thought u guys were against that stuff? And what about free speech? Such blatant fascistic mob tactics are the reason nobody takes you guys seriously. Cant wait till election day! Ive never voted but i can assure you there will be a clean sweep this year and in 2012.
leekinny on March 28 at 9:28 a.m.
How many fish is it safe to eat from the Spokane River?
peteroundy on March 28 at 9:34 a.m.
0. because of all the mine deposit residue from upriver, in the 40s and 50s. Not because of anything thats been done in the last 30 years. Obviously your not from here or you would know that the river was far worse 20 years ago. thanks for making my point. is that all you got, and a thesaurus!
peteroundy on March 28 at 9:35 a.m.
Big words cant hide a weak arguement
Wildflower on March 28 at 9:40 a.m.
For the Spokesman and everyone else that got the story wrong, it was the far right that got violent. Early on, one of their protesters hit one of the environmentalists in the face with the wooden support for their sign. His face bled and he, understandably, became very upset. He did not return the violence, but used verbal aggression to express his contempt for their position. What would you do if someone hit you in the face? It might take some coaxing to keep you calm also. Think about it.
These folks on the far right are nothing but hypocrites. Gluttony is not a right—in fact, it’s a deadly sin. The youth in the community will outlive them, outsmart them and consume less than them. We hold our heads high and wait for small changes to amount to great ones.
misjustice on March 28 at 9:58 a.m.
Were the righties packin’ heat ?
Wildflower, you are correct; when the old people that hold their old ideas are no longer around, then the young people with our new ideas will be able to move ahead…and make the type of world we want to live in better!
lafleur10 on March 28 at 10:05 a.m.
Peter - you chide others about not living here, yet you are almost entirely wrong with the “facts” in your posts. First, upstream mining is not from the ‘40s-50s” as you claim. Mining has occurred since the early 1900’s and continues today. We have several mines still operating in the Silver Valley NOW. Secondly, the Cuyahoga River that caught fire occurred in 1969 not in “the ‘40’s” as you claim (also, it didn’t “spontaneously combust” the oil in the river caught a spark from a passing train). I agree that it doesn’t happen now, but that is a direct result of the Clean Water Act, or a “radical” environmental regulation that you advocate weakening. Finally, the reason that the Spokane River has fish advisories has almost NOTHING to do with the historical mining, but is from man made chemicals that persist in the environment. PCBs are cancer causing toxins that studies show are coming from the Spokane stormwater system.
Educate yourself before you come on a board and attack others. You pretty much lose all credibility when you can’t get simple facts right.
Finally, although the environment has become a partisan issue, I would note that almost all of our landmark environmental laws - the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, the Endangered Species Act, and RCRA - were all passed by a Dems Congress and passed into law by a Republican President (Nixon). Amazing what people could do before Fox News…
peteroundy on March 28 at 10:17 a.m.
Im 30 years old and rarley in my life have i ever met a college student who is as wise or knowledgeable as your average middle age blue collar american. If anything, the bias’s picked up in college only cloud ones judgment and ability to reason.
terryalan on March 28 at 10:21 a.m.
People would be wise to research what local conditions were like before the environmental controls started becoming a reality. In the past the waster from Kellogg mines would sort of ‘roll’ down the streams and gutters along I-90….a brown sludge rolling and slithering along side the road…instead of water flowing freely……I remember seeing that in the 70’s……mom tells me that in the 50’s in Spokane one could not hang laundry out to dry as the cinders and smoke and crap from the locomotives would render clean clothes dirty and smelly….literally could not hang wash out to dry…Dog only knows what the effects of breathing that crap were…
There just has to be another way than destroying the planet……..
misjustice on March 28 at 10:25 a.m.
As wise as you petey? With your misspellings and lack of punctuation? Glad you retained the ability to reason…
Lafleur10, thanks for bringing up points that I had forgotten. President Nixon, indeed, was progressive and not only implemented landmark environmental laws but also affirmative action laws.
spokanecommunistparty on March 28 at 10:25 a.m.
Republicans litter.
terryalan on March 28 at 10:26 a.m.
Oh, Peter….what a stupid thing to say. As far as I can tell from your post, you simply don’t hang around with educated persons very much.
Of course freshly educated youths are not as worldly or wise as people with life experience….simply more educated..
The educated have been taught to seek facts and reason for themselves, as opposed to ignorantly adhering to notions that ‘everybody knows’…
Contrary to popular belief, everyone is NOT really entitled to an opinion. The only opinions that count are based on empirical fact and knowledge.
misjustice on March 28 at 10:28 a.m.
Thanks, petey, for never voting; just read that proud post of yours! LOL!
spokanecommunistparty on March 28 at 10:38 a.m.
The name ‘Republican’ has become a dirty word, almost as dirty as their pollution.
misjustice on March 28 at 10:39 a.m.
leekinney, as usual you have presented a cogent, well thought out argument.
What the climate change deniers don’t realize is that they won’t be saved from disaster, just because they refuse to belive in global climate change doesn’t mean they will be spared from its impact.
Or are they hopin’ and prayin’ for the “end times” ?
spokanecommunistparty on March 28 at 10:40 a.m.
They should change the Tea party’s name to the Garbage Hugger party
misjustice on March 28 at 10:42 a.m.
Well, I’d offer terryalan, that every one is entitled to an opinion (even if it is wrong)…what they are NOT entitiled to is their own set of facts!
peteroundy on March 28 at 10:44 a.m.
as you sit there and argue semantics, like specific dates and exact causes of fires, you do not address my point that we are a cleaner nation than we ever have ever been before. I’m not arguing against being environmentally conscious i am arguing against economic suicide and enviromental extremism. Im not a republican but how funny you take it into the political realm so quickly. I agree with the clean water act and the clean air act as i am an avid fisherman and backpacker, but if i dont have a job and i cant support myself, the environments not gonna matter. Economically sound nations have the resources and abilities to pass legislation that protect the environment. however, nations with economic hardship, i.e. Russia, Africa, south America etc. have no ability or desire to protect their environment. If the left had it their way the environment would trump the economy and soon we would be in the same boat as these others nations. Why are you not protesting China? How about Russia. No No .you cant do that. its much easier for you guys to blame the one nation that has taken steps to improve not only our own countries environment but the entire worlds. But let me guess, your gonna say we do all the polluting, right? Wrong! We recycle and regulate the heck out of companies and industries. alot more than any other nation in the world. Get the facts that matter, not the irrelevant ones you cherry pick to try to discredit me.
peteroundy on March 28 at 10:47 a.m.
How funny and fitting that a communist is agreeing with you guys. Talk about loosing credibility!
spokanecommunistparty on March 28 at 10:52 a.m.
Whats wrong with the cpusa? http://www.cpusa.org/ Republicans fight for filth and corporations, we fight for the people.
peteroundy on March 28 at 10:58 a.m.
do you have any idea how many people have died in the last 70 years as a direct result of communism? And to say republicans fight for filth and corporations is just an ignorant oversimplification that highlights your own lack of knowledge and clouded judgment
SugarShane on March 28 at 10:59 a.m.
peter makes an excellent point, why should I care about the earth when I dont have a job or any money. The worlds not going to end in my lifetime, so lets get to whats really important, money.
American to the core.
Communism: A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
You right peter, communism sounds terrible.
leekinny on March 28 at 10:59 a.m.
Spokane area Super-fund sites…..
Fairchild Air Force Base (4 Waste Areas)
http://yosemite.epa.gov/r10/cleanup.nsf/346a4822da38ae7088256da6005fc923/42271cbb6630cd8888256522006bf2c6!OpenDocument
General Electric Co. (Spokane Shop)
http://yosemite.epa.gov/r10/cleanup.nsf/346a4822da38ae7088256da6005fc923/e1cfafd64c1f8608882565280061d47d!OpenDocument
Greenacres Landfill
http://yosemite.epa.gov/r10/cleanup.nsf/346a4822da38ae7088256da6005fc923/b13ab1e806d7847888256528007024a6!OpenDocument
North Market Street
http://yosemite.epa.gov/r10/cleanup.nsf/346a4822da38ae7088256da6005fc923/fb82f7a9d1ae9d418825653d0075a591!OpenDocument
Northside Landfill
http://yosemite.epa.gov/r10/cleanup.nsf/346a4822da38ae7088256da6005fc923/e26a0c782b50b9f288256547005a145d!OpenDocument
Old Inland Pit
http://yosemite.epa.gov/r10/cleanup.nsf/346a4822da38ae7088256da6005fc923/69ea066afc3737fd88256547006196e2!OpenDocument
Spokane Junkyard and Associated Properties
http://yosemite.epa.gov/r10/cleanup.nsf/346a4822da38ae7088256da6005fc923/3c0e40cb25267cd28825654e00708a5b!OpenDocument
Vermiculite Northwest - Spokane WA
http://yosemite.epa.gov/r10/cleanup.nsf/346a4822da38ae7088256da6005fc923/717834e601dce8cd8825762d0072baad!OpenDocument
Super-fund sites state wide
http://yosemite.epa.gov/r10/cleanup.nsf/webpage/Washington+Cleanup+Sites
Super-fund sites nation wide
http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/
I’ve been happy to make Spokane my home for the last 15 yrs. I grew up on the Illinois side of the St. Louis area. Many factories, many farms and much pollution. Yea, there’s been improvements. And we have Nixon to thank for a lot of that. But, the last administration weakened regulations concerning pollution and underfunded the EPA.
There’s much work still to be done.
spokanecommunistparty on March 28 at 11:00 a.m.
Cpusa saves!
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:00 a.m.
This is fun!
mikeln on March 28 at 11:03 a.m.
People have enjoyed good climate for the last 100,000 years. We are arrogant to believe we are causing present climate change. No matter what the cause, if we don’t prepare ourselves for it, we, like so many species before, will die off. We could use this as a excuse to start working for the betterment of mankind but we won’t. Religion, greed and stupidity will prevail untill we are gone. Hopefully a truly intellegent species will come from this.
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:06 a.m.
communism is great on paper, but how many times has it worked in the real world?
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:06 a.m.
Answer 0
spokanecommunistparty on March 28 at 11:07 a.m.
Well, I guess trash and filth are better than the people’s well being. You Republicans are right, Corporations are more important.
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:11 a.m.
without corporations there is no beacon of light and freedom known as America, That is your disconnect and why you cannot be taken seriously.
spokanecommunistparty on March 28 at 11:12 a.m.
peteroundy, go to that link above and read a little bit about it, I was skeptical a little bit at first but it kinda makes good sense. Its more logical than the Republican party.
misjustice on March 28 at 11:19 a.m.
non voting petey + corporations = smart and good; college students, environmentalists, communists and anyone petey disagree with bad + dumb = evil = scary
Does that about sum it up?
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:19 a.m.
Why is it fair for someone to be given someone else’s hard earned money. That is redistribution of income and its wrong and un-american. Charity is American and we are by far the most generous nation in the history of the earth. Forced charity is socialism. Socialism is wrong, unless your the bum who doesn’t work and just collects a government check on my sweat. What is my motivation to work and innovate if the bum next door earns the same amount as me, but sits around with a six pack and a bag of chips watching Dr. Phil all day. How is this fair? please educate me.
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:20 a.m.
i am not a republican. i am a libertarian.
misjustice on March 28 at 11:22 a.m.
You are a non voter! Said so yourself…
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:23 a.m.
misjustice, Please make a statement i can follow. Your just blah blah blah with no substance. at least theses other guys are making points with facts. Your just a mouthpiece with nothin behind it if you know what i mean.
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:24 a.m.
just registered for the first time
mikeln on March 28 at 11:26 a.m.
Ever heard of the Haliberton “Loophole” It’s when a company can pollute as much as they want as long as the polltants are proprietary. Several places in our country can now light their tap water on fire because Haliberton is allowed to pump unknown material into the ground to retrieve natural gas. My bet is they are being paid to dispose of hazerdous waste under the proprietary rule. The EPA can’t even investigate. Everybody knows what extinct means and that where we humans are headed.
leekinny on March 28 at 11:28 a.m.
Once again fear seems to be the problem among Conservatives. Being terrified of moving away from the old and comfortable past toward something different is hard. Our nation has always embraced new challenges and thrived.
But, arguing, and voting against improvements and alternative advances in energy is an insult to the resourcefulness and ingenuity of the American spirit.
Why anyone would bet against the can-do spunk of Americans is hard to understand. But, the Republican party is dominated by those who are doing this very thing in order to protect carbon industry profits. It’s a detriment to what we can all achieve.
The US has always been in the forefront of developing new technology that has spread around the globe and advanced the standard of living for the whole human race.
Yes, we can!
spokanecommunistparty on March 28 at 11:29 a.m.
Sometimes our good jobs end, but your whole world shouldn’t come crashing down. Life may be peachy, but it doesn’t stay that way forever. We all should help each other out when the chips are down. We all have been there before and you never forget.
misjustice on March 28 at 11:30 a.m.
Yeah, I’m on the list of those you don’t like = bad.
The longer you go on, the more we know how, oh well what’s the point…? I think everyone else on the thread knows what I mean…
I tried to dumb it down for you with symbols, didn’t want to use any fancy college words…but even the symbols went over your head!
Smart, college educated, voting, woman that is for the environment = bad.
Petey, middle aged, non voting, anti environmental movement, pro corporations = good.
misjustice on March 28 at 11:33 a.m.
Mikeln, no…I had not heard of that before…so is the water used to retrieve the energy and then what, it migrates into drinking water sources?
Do you have a source where we can read more?
misjustice on March 28 at 11:37 a.m.
oecotextiles.wordpress.com/…/what-does-fracking-have-to-do-with-our-drinking-water/
I found what you were talking about, Mikeln…
Very frightening.
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:40 a.m.
Listen to yourself! i believe you think that’s all true! Sad Sad Sad. I love the outdoors. I fish 2 sometimes 3 times a week. Why do i think you spend most of your time indoors blogging about outside! Anti-environmentalist? I don’t know anyone whos against the environment! What a concept! Ya i want dirty water and smog! Your way of thinking scares me! I have a bachelors degree in journalism so college educated people dont scare me unless i scare myself! And in my 4 years in pullman i met some of the most biased, ignorant people in my whole life. And most of them were professors. And as for women who love the enviroment, I love em!
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:42 a.m.
Any more gems of wisdom for us there, Misjustice?
misjustice on March 28 at 11:47 a.m.
leekinney, I am reading some of your links, and thanks by the way for putting them up.
The GE superfund site is right over the aquifer; the sole drinking source for over half a million people! Shocking!
kadra on March 28 at 11:50 a.m.
I am not sure the Spokesman got the true picture last night. The citizens protesting Earth Hour were there aggressively slandering the Mayor’s efforts to step up and recognize the World Wildlife’s mission is to stop the degradation of the planet’s natural environment and to build a future in which humans live in harmony with nature. This is the heart behind Earth Hour. The other group was not there to protest, however support our mayor in her valiant effort and recognize the need to become educated about the world around us.
I had been planning to spend the ONE hour playing games with my family by candle light and to enjoy ONE hour without electricity to recognize and respect that there are things we can do to make a small difference. I enjoy visiting places like Glacier National Park, and am able to recognize (without any one’s help -scientist or not) that the glaciers are receding. I am able to recognize that yearly in Spokane we are setting records for “The most snowfall recorded,” “The least snowfall recorded,” or “The hottest day recorded.” This is not a normal thing!
Yes, there were people on both sides who felt strongly for their position and took the discussion to an aggressive verbal level, but a man defending our mayor an “environmentalist” was hit in the face with a wooden poster holder. I am proud that he was the better person and walked away. How many people could walk away without striking back if they were smacked in the face?
Bill Nye, a fellow Washington citizen puts it beautifully. Not recognizing climate is “almost unpatriotic.” I see this in signs presented last night such as “My SUV, my light bulbs, my property. Back off!” When we become so self-centered and full of gluttony we make choices that are for our own consumptive desires, instead of what is best for the future generations. It’s saying “I can eat an entire pizza while I watch my children starve because it’s my right as an American.”
(http://dailycaller.com/2010/02/12/bill-nye-belief-in-global-warming-necessary-for-patriotism/)
leekinny on March 28 at 11:52 a.m.
I flirted with Libertarian ideology years ago. Some aspects appeal to both liberals and conservatives. But, in the end, I, couldn’t buy it. You can’t just be halfway a Libertarian. If you don’t accept all the principals, you aren’t one.
I suspect many conservatives like the fiscal policies of that group but are ignorant of what being a Libertarian really means. http://www.lp.org/issues
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:57 a.m.
What a strange comparison to make. I really have trouble following these arguements. I was there and the enviromentalists were rude, loud and violent. They tried to shout down a legitimate protest against science that has been proven to be debatable at best. Your comparison is way off.
peteroundy on March 28 at 11:58 a.m.
kadra
peteroundy on March 28 at 12:00 p.m.
Its called el nino a totally normal reoccuring weather phenomenon.
peteroundy on March 28 at 12:02 p.m.
how can u go from a libertarian ideology to socialism. Those a diametrically opposing ideologies.
misjustice on March 28 at 12:03 p.m.
leekinney, again thank you for the links…
I did not grow up here so am a little unfamilar with some of the area’s history. I never would have guessed that there are so many Superfund sites, right here…
The GE site that sits over the aquifer, the old Greenacres landfill that has impaired the water in the upper Spokane watershed. And the Northside Landfill, affiliated with zonolite contamination from WR Grace (a company now owned by Halliburton)…
I knew about the problem with zonolite because I used to live in Libby, Montana where it was mined; but I had no idea that there were other contamination sites associated with it, especially one right here in Spokane.
Again, thank you for the links… I will continue to read and become more educated…
peteroundy on March 28 at 12:04 p.m.
spokesman is a leftist paper yet you say they got the story wrong in favor of conservitives. Fat chance
misjustice on March 28 at 12:05 p.m.
Kadra, thank you for reporting on your experience while at Earth Hour. I find your comments to be enlightening and hopeful!
peteroundy on March 28 at 12:08 p.m.
Agressivley Slandering? Thats called protesting. Something that the left specializes in. Hippocrits! You slandered bush for 8 years! He may have deserved it but for you to say that descent is somehow wrong because you dont agree with it shows how warped your thinking is. Fascist Thought on the left! Scary!
leekinny on March 28 at 12:18 p.m.
I didn’t know till I googled it. I bet a lot of people don’t know. Maybe, it’s time to stop putting off buying that water filter.
Time to watch basketball.
misjustice on March 28 at 12:22 p.m.
@leekinney
Additional reading on EPA Superfund sites…
Learned that up in Hilllyard the Spokane Youth Sports Association built a sports complex on over 16 acres of what is a “containment cell”. Contaminents such as heavymetals, lead, and PCBs were consolidated on site, in a containment cell, then capped. Now there is a sports complex for (poor) kids on top of the pollution, built in 2002; EPA delisted the site in ‘97.
Also interesting, low income housing was built around the area that was reclaimed. Nothing like housing for poor people built on a former EPA site…
misjustice on March 28 at 12:23 p.m.
I have a Britta water filtering system that I like…
Yeah, time for hoopies!
Later
peteroundy on March 28 at 12:28 p.m.
Being poor does have its health risks!
peteroundy on March 28 at 12:29 p.m.
yay for basketball. the one thing we all agree on!
kadra on March 28 at 12:30 p.m.
Peter,
I was there as well. Not with a bullhorn, standing on a flag or chanting hatred. I wasn’t in anyone’s face, or making choices to not be a respectable person. BOTH sides had people who did or did not make the choice to rude or violent. Be it a spotlight in the environmentalists faces or a laser pointer on the signs of the protesters, there were a handful of people on both sides going above and beyond. All I can say is that at the end of the day, I left feeling like I supported a great cause respectfully!
There were many other people who left in the same manner! I loved seeing community members walking by making the decision to stand up with us and hold a candle. -Not grab a protesting sign and yell that we should have the freedom to do what is more appealing for us now, and suffer the consequences later.
Do you not agree with the purpose of the World Wildlife’s Earth Hour of stopping the degradation of the planet’s natural environment and to building a future in which humans live in harmony with nature? Do you go to parks with your family and enjoy nature and relax? My point is that we should be stepping up and protect these places. I would love my children to be able to see Glacier National Park with Glaciers, enjoy parks without garbage in them, breathe clean air with less VOCs or particulate matter, and enjoy the diverse environments our world has to offer. If that means I make a conscious choice to reduce waste, take a few extra minutes to pick up trash in my neighborhood, try to walk to the store instead of drive, or actively remind my self to turn off unused lights, so be it. Little efforts on my behalf can help inspire others, or at least help me enjoy my time here!
Wildflower on March 28 at 12:38 p.m.
Kudos, Kadra. Thanks for telling a balanced and truthful account of what happened last night.
misjustice on March 28 at 12:41 p.m.
Kadra, you and others in this forum have impressed and inspired me! Thank you!
peteroundy on March 28 at 12:43 p.m.
environmental extremism will do more to damage our environment than it will ever do to save it. There is a healthy balance between the environment and industry that needs to be found. but for us to sign an agreement with countries who have no intention of following thru at our economies expense is asinine. no body want pollution. cmon now
peteroundy on March 28 at 12:44 p.m.
sure that’s what happened. unbelievable. you believe her cuz u agree with her right
peteroundy on March 28 at 1:11 p.m.
balanced and fair because you agree with her! right?
Wildflower on March 28 at 2:49 p.m.
The words were balanced and truthful. And I made that remark because I was THERE, Pete. Were you?
riverlaw on March 28 at 2:58 p.m.
Fagan’s antics last night help illustrate the fact that we need to be investing more in our education system. Perhaps logic and fact-based reasoning should be part of the WASL.
misjustice on March 28 at 3:25 p.m.
Wildflower, thank you for being there and for telling those of us that care about your experience. I wish I could have joined you. Some ppl just have to be rude on this site, they can’t seem to help themselves. Kind of like acting out, a cry for attention…
leekinney posted some great links…everyone should check them out
misjustice on March 28 at 3:56 p.m.
Even if the naysayers on global climate change are correct, and that humans are not responsible for a trend in warming, wouldn’t it be the prudent thing to do, as the leaders of the free world, to err on the side of caution?
Afterall, we only have one planet, one home in the entire solar system. And if it becomes unihabitable then what?
There are islands disappearing into the sea near India, and Australia, a bell weather continent, has been dealing with increased droughts. China has been experiencing dust-bowl like wind storms, and worldwide, glaciers are melting at an alarming rate.
All of these are symptoms, all are indicators that the earth is warming.
I say let’s be at the vanguard on renewable energy and let’s get started on cap and trade (the hue and cry will be deafening on that one). If we are wrong about climate change then we will have developed new industries, new technologies, and we will benefit from new jobs and new ways of doing business. If we do nothing and continue to deny the possibility of global climate change then we fail future generations and we fail our planet, our home.
I’m glad that there are those in Spokane that are aware, that want to move ahead, that want what’s best for our earth.
peteroundy on March 28 at 4:22 p.m.
not at the expence of our way of life
sledmike on March 28 at 4:31 p.m.
Wow, this is great! I just finished updating the stickers on the back of the Prius and turning the compost pile. I meant to use the newspaper as bedding for my free range chicken (it is printed by a vile corporation after all) but instead was shocked by this article. As I skeptically read this article about our brothers and sister being oppressed by the climate deniers, a thought came to me, instead of just turning off the lights for Earth Hour to support Gaia we should go in groups and knock on those neighbors doors who don’t know the true danger of the lights. We can explain the sadness of Mother Earth to them with a puppet show. They must realize what they are doing! No, maybe signs written in blood and bull horns. If we…..
oh wait a minute, the trucks full of diesel, the sleds are on the trailer and there is still some snow…never mind. So many climates to change, so little time.
leekinny on March 28 at 5:13 p.m.
It seems someone was listening to those who put every one who cares about this Earth of ours into one little box. Beats thinkin’.
leekinny on March 28 at 5:27 p.m.
Misjustice you are absolutely right. Fear keeps them from trusting what this nation is capable, have always been capable, of building.
It also seems from the post above that prejudice has also been used to keep people from embracing new technologies. If you think American, invention and engineering can move us into a new way of providing energy independence you must be a wacky kookoo nut case. I’d rather trust in the American Spirit.
sledmike on March 28 at 5:33 p.m.
leekinny, so sad…you assume because I use hyperbole and sarcasm that I do not think. Don’t belittle my ability to think with your inability to temper your pious nature.
You are quick to assign a station for those of us who do not share your view. Earth Hour, just like Earth Day, a Prius automobile and all the rainbow stickers it may contain are to convince the rest of us of your dedication, understanding and caring. The problem is, you want the recognition and are unwilling to work for the betterment of our world in anonymity. I do what I need to do to help…I just don’t need my tush kissed and my ego massaged. Sorry for your confusion.
misjustice on March 28 at 5:40 p.m.
Dear Mr. Sled:
Please do not attack leekinney, it makes you sound mean and confused, and small.
Love,
MisJustice
; )
leekinny on March 28 at 5:43 p.m.
Oh yea, I missed it. As my pious nature is tongue in cheek with a good poke in the ribs to the right.
misjustice on March 28 at 5:45 p.m.
Tush kisses and ego massages for everyone! They are eco-friendly!
peteroundy on March 28 at 5:53 p.m.
Sled mike just laid a verbal smack down on all you environ-fascists. I go fishing and when i leave i do my part and pick up trash. but im not gonna hold a rally and pass legislation to make someone else do the same. That facism no matter what your intentions are.
sledmike on March 28 at 5:57 p.m.
Misjustice, apparently your skin is v-e-r-y thin. I have not attacked anyone. I will leave that to others. I am very much not mean and, not withstanding your disdain for gluttony, I am not small. Confusion is not a trait I have displayed. I merely point to the belittling nature of some posts. Poor leekinny apparently believes that my post “beats thinkin”. Well now, when I was a little person, I was taught not to ‘dish it out if I could not take it’. Leekinny is predisposed to diminish me or my opinion. You know what, I have broad shoulders. I don’t take it personally but have little patience for those who can cascade names and disparaging remarks at others while perched on an alter of self righteousness. As for Earth, Cro-magnon inhabitants are gone, the Neanderthal inhabitants are gone…we too will be gone. If you think we are going to ‘save the planet’, I’ve got some great ocean front in Montana you would love.
Love, sledmike <:)
leekinny on March 28 at 6:08 p.m.
Oh, we left the behavior discussion a while ago. I would have to say that Democracy is a good thing, but, it’s messy.
There’s much about any movement that seems a bit silly at times. Car manufacturers are trying to capitalize on peoples awareness and, yes, with some buyers, they’re wanting to pat themselves on the back and look special. But, the important thing is, the technology moves forward.
All the other things done, some of which can seem down right silly, are in an effort to get people, interested, excited and motivated to action along with a tad bit of fun.
The problem of fear of moving ahead is still there. Too many, have been told we can’t. I refuse to believe that.
misjustice on March 28 at 6:08 p.m.
When the President returns from his overseas trip the House and the Senate will begin holding hearings on cap and trade. I can hardly wait to watch C-Span and the hearings.
We probably won’t get a bill put together until after the first of the year but that’s okay. The debate should prove lively and interesting. On one side there will be discussion with evidence and testimony, and on the other side there will be Grouchy Grandpa McSame saying that he won’t co-operate. Oh, and Mr. Boner too, with his h-e-double hockey sticks NO amendments.
Ahhh, Good Times!
sledmike on March 28 at 6:14 p.m.
As much as I would like to continue this banter, I must depart…having to run by business, make an evil profit, all to feed my family and continue to help my kids through college. Busy, busy, busy
As a word of advice from me, take it or not (your choice), try not to take yourselves quite so seriously. Too many do and the results are always the same….disappointment for all when you sound shrill. Humility is the best practice…name calling is not helpful (mcsame, boner?? really) I expected better…
Ta Ta
leekinny on March 28 at 6:35 p.m.
None of this is about saving the planet. We could go full bore on all the green house gases and the planet will still be here. There will be life that survives no matter how irresponsible we behave.
It’s about how our actions are effecting this home we’ve been given and how it is changing the lives of those who share it with us.
It might be necessary to point out that ‘our’ means all of the Earth’s inhabitants not just us.
I don’t think I would want to apologize for believing we are the greatest innovators of new technology in the world. I do have a pie in the sky attitude about what this nation of ours is capable of accomplishing.
If we don’t do it who will? If we fool around and watch this new technology be developed by others will we have to kiss their tush to keep our country running?
We can do this.
misjustice on March 28 at 6:49 p.m.
Not only can we do this we must do this. While we are arguing amongst ourselves, China has been busy building the green technology that the world will be using when we get off the oil merry-go-round.
The nation that leads in this new technology will dominate the new economy, and possibly the world.
I want our nation to lead again, not be the type of nation to say that things can’t be done because they are too difficult. We must take the lead on renewable energy technologies. Building the new technologies will help revive our economy and show the world that we can lead in manners other than military might.
leekinny on March 28 at 6:57 p.m.
Confusing bank regulations and immigration. too. And don;t be surprised if someone sticks in an amendment someplace to lower the age when a person can get into Medicare.
I could really let use on the name calling if I was trying to keep up with the Conservatives, but I’d really rather not. Although, as Stephanie reminds us, from School House Rock, “When two vowels go walking the first one does the talking”.
Thanks a bunch for having my back, misjustice. Bye, until the next knuckledragger fight. I doubt that I’ll have this much energy again though.
misjustice on March 28 at 7:15 p.m.
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Earth-Hour/ss/events/sc/032710earthhour#photoViewer=/100328/ids_photos_ts/r865742424.jpg
Great slide show…how the rest of the world shared Earth Hour.
force_vector on March 28 at 8:41 p.m.
Wow, not one comment out of over 90 is without some learned falacy of logic, left undisputed by facts to the contrary and the reality that both sides of this debate have been duped in the name of money. You are all suckers. Those who think we have any affect on global climate by industrial releases…suckers. Those who think we don’t have any affect of climate through industrial releases…suckers. As a geophysicist I’m here to tell you, humans do not have a significant enough impact on atmospheric chemistry to alter the overall climate system of the Earth. Sorry if that bums some of you out. And to those of you clowns that think a giant trail of black exhaust behind your vehicle is without consequence, think again. There are many thousands of people who are sensitive to particulate irritants. So while you may not be killing polar bears, you are degrading the quality of life for someone. Furthermore, “green” energy is a joke. Energy is energy, e=mc^2. In other words, it takes some mass to make it. And what do you suppose the byproduct is of any mass to energy conversion?…mass yet again (crazy universe has it out for us I guess). We live in a SYSTEM! And if you think China has some edge over us for their attempt to appear as though they are interested in developing new, very expensive means of obtaining energy, agiain, you are an idiot. This is all about money and power. One side wants to sell carbon credits and make a buck. China wants us to invest our limited capital in something other than defense (wonder why?). Meanwhile the gullible believe turning off their bathroom fan for an hour (having taken a sh!t or not) makes a difference to some poor little animal somewhere in the world he/she learned about in college while hung over and scraping by on the way to an illustrius art and/or business degree (same thing).
You are all arrogant in equal, yet opposite ways. Apparently you all are fools as well, since each one of you have bought into an untrue belief sold by those who will capitalize finacially from your ignorance. Bravo people.
peteroundy on March 28 at 9:29 p.m.
Who said or thinks pollution is good or has no consequences? reread what was said and try again my friend!
peteroundy on March 28 at 9:33 p.m.
And I love how everyone is ignorant but you. You are a centrist who obviously takes no stand on this subject, that or you don’t understand what the beef is. Environmentalism is great but you have to balance it with industry.
peteroundy on March 28 at 9:34 p.m.
your mostly right though
force_vector on March 28 at 10:12 p.m.
I am a centrist in that I don’t believe taking a “side” changes the facts any more than having a “beef” does. There are consequences to everything, even breathing. But that doesn’t mean we should all stop doing so. Nor does it means people should waste them professing the greatness of a political system that has led to the death of millions of people who never knew freedom (communism). I get extremely irritated that people seem unwilling to take the time to actually learn physics, chemistry, math, geology ect. before coming to a conclusion that my way of life should be stopped for the better of someone else’s (Gore) who has managed to cast an illusion of prophetic knowledge with the obvious core of deceit and dillusion to those who take the time to really educate themselves. We are part of a system in which we act and live at its mercy, not the other way around. That means we should all take care of our home (Earth) since we live here, but not be so arrogant as to believe we are any more than blips on a radar, incapable of long term affect ( for good or bad). If we all just tried to live good lives and do the right thing by our families, country, and home, we could save our disagreements for things that really mattered..like who brews the best beer. That said, perhaps arrogant, ignorant and idiot were terms that were too harsh. My appologies.
stephina on March 29 at 5:13 a.m.
I can’t believe the tea party sent some of their finest to protest some people turning off lights. Now they all have to post here for good measure. All they were there to do was make trouble, which is what happens at all their events. All they want to do is let people know how much they dislike progressives, and that’s pretty much it.
riverlaw on March 29 at 6:12 a.m.
When did conservatives forget about conserving?
eagleproducer on March 29 at 9:05 a.m.
peter: I kinda have to agree with your assessment of the journalism professors at WSU if they allowed you to graduate before mastering the ability to compose a coherent paragraph devoid of errors of spelling, punctuation, word usage and logic.
The Mike Fagan’s of the U.S. should be held responsible for inciting violence of the type members of congress who voted for health care reform recently experienced. It’s more than a little ironic that the Tea Baggers, who often portrayed Obama as Hitler during the fight for health care care reform, held their own little Kristallnacht recently.
If they weren’t so confused and well armed they’d be a joke. Deadly combination.
SugarShane on March 29 at 11:33 a.m.
Well you try to explain away global warming, but offer no explanation as to why glaciers are retreating, and why weather patterns are changing faster than ever in their recorded history. Each year new records are being broken with highs and lows and ammount of tropical storm activity, but I guess all that can be attributed to natural earth phenonomenom.
force_vector on March 29 at 12:19 p.m.
Sugar Shane - The Earth has been warming since the last glacial maximum which was over 10,000 years ago. Incredibly, the glaciers produced during that event have been receeding too, hence the beautiful topography of the NW and other areas as well. Keep in mind, “recorded history” is but a minute fraction of the total history, and is subject to error and as a result, interpretation. Global climate is a function by and large of solar activity+milankovitch cycles which result in changes to hadley cell configurations and ocean currents. How these changes are experienced by continents depends upon the configuration with respect to the equator (plate tectonics). Small, temporary climate changes can occur due to volcanic eruptions and/or large impacts, but the Earth system corrects for the introduction of particlates and returns to its natural state in relatively short order.
misjustice on March 29 at 12:40 p.m.
I suppose the acres large, floating garbage island in the Pacific is also a “natural” occurance; and therefore, nothing should be done about it?
force_vector on March 29 at 1:32 p.m.
There is a fine to littering “misjustice” because it’s widely accepted that tossing your garbage around leads to unsightliness and a lack of cleanliness that most people find unacceptable. Additionally, people volunteer their time to cleanup after those who just don’t care. As for the floating landfill in the Pacific; only a moron would attempt to make a coorelation between litter and nature. The garbage in the Pacific is incredibly unfortunate, as is your lack of logical insight and inability to make a point that is both on-topic, and worth arguing about.
SugarShane on March 29 at 3:21 p.m.
force_vector, I understand those elements of earth function, my point was more that the rate of rising temperatures has accelerated at an alarming rate in recent history. There are photos of glaciers in the 1800’s that barely melted in over 100 years, but in a very short period, from about the sixties til now have almost completely disappeared. To say its coincidence seems illogical. The ocean does not have to change much, maybe a couple degrees, to throw the entire climate out of whack. So these state sized pieces of the polar caps breaking off and the rapid rate at which they are melting could mean the end of the world as we know it. When polar bears are drowning to death and threatened with extinction, shouldn’t it be a cue? Even if we are wrong, whats the harm? But if we are right and just do nothing?
force_vector on March 29 at 4:12 p.m.
Polar bears drowing?? From wiki : “Polar bears are efficient swimmers, for such large animals. While in the water they paddle with their front feet, and use the hind feet as rudders. They can swim at a speeds of 4-6 mph and paddle non-stop for 100 miles. Have been seen swimming several hundred miles from the nearest ice or land.”. For some reason, I doubt that is occurring on anything resembling a regular basis.
As I have previously said, the Earth is a system. Sure, the change of ocean temperatures will create an affect based upon some cause. However, corresponding changes to the atmospheric ones produced by changing ocean temps (i.e. increased albedo due to increased cloud cover, ect.) return the system to equillibruim. The only way that cannot happen is for changes to occur outside of the system that change the dynamic of the system iteself. In other words, an increase in solar activity for a prolonged period that changes the equillibrium point. Neither you, nor I can have any meaningful affect on the climate of the Earth as our contributions to the atmospheric chemistry are so small they can be discarded as background noise. The last time the Earth was incredibly warm, there was a great deal of CO2 available. The response to the warming was a rise in sea levels. The response to the rise in sea levels was the accumulation of limestone on the seafloors (see Montana, Idaho, ect.). Limestone effectively trapped the CO2, as CaCO3, and thereby limited the amount available to produce CO2 induced warming in the future. That CO2 is still locked away in the rocks, and will continue to be.
That the rate of warming oscillates is neither suprising, nor is it cause for alarm, nor does it require that we “do” something about it. The “even if we are wrong, what’s the harm ?” argument has been used for many things throughout history to justify a failed approach to perceived problems. The harm in this case is that the scientific method has been tossed aside for funding, the scientific literacy of the public at large has been severly reduced by false “facts”, and our ability as a species to better understand the world we enhabit has been diminished by the need to defend false scientific methodology and conclusions. Very unfortunate. The future costs will be felt financially. So at what point do you consider these costs to be harm? I have always maintained that you don’t sh!t in your livingroom simply because you have an air freshner plugged in in the corner. We should avoid pollution and be good stewards. But this sky is falling business has gotten quite old, and the level to which people will defend their belief in something they themselves do not comprehend is astounding and disturbing.
For those who need an immenent catastrophy to provide meaning to their lives, I have good news: global cooling will be just around the corner (in geologic timescale terms anyway).
peteroundy on March 29 at 4:56 p.m.
Im not sure how anyone can argue against that. As for Spoketucky, Dont hate on me playa. You dont know me and the personal attacks are so very un-necessary. Instead of attacking my valid points your attacking me personally, which automatically renders credibility void. I would have watched my sentence structure and punctuation had i known i was being graded.
peteroundy on March 29 at 5:05 p.m.
What violence did our beloved congress receive there spoketucky? Most of them made accusations with no evidence to back it up. And polititions never lie. As a member of congress people are constantly threatened and even sometimes assassinated! Believe it or not, it happens all the time. Whats really wrong is using the example of a couple nuts to label an entire group of people you happen to disagree with as “crazies”. You are a typical leftist who will have no power in this country come the next few elections. Good day sir!
SugarShane on March 29 at 6:21 p.m.
a quick google brought up this article on polar bears drowning from 2005: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article767459.ece
force_vector on March 29 at 6:39 p.m.
You seek to convince me of your point of view by linking an article discussing the drowing of four bears, whose species was estimated at 22,000? It will take a lot more than a .02% mortality rate from drowning to make me change my belief that polar bears don’t regularly drown my friend. But for arguments sake, let’s say the Earth has warmed to such an extent that they are drowning in appreciable numbers….what’s your point? There haven’t always been polar bears and at some point in the future there won’t be again. Why are people so obsessed with present day conditions (biological and atmospheric) that any deviation is thought to be a calamity at the fault of man? The Earth system changes whether you like it or not.
Hank Greer on March 29 at 7:20 p.m.
Rabble, rabble, rabble!
misjustice on March 29 at 7:47 p.m.
No, the floating island of garbage in the Pacific does pertain to the environment, and how we treat mother Earth. So does the fact that many of our beaches are now littered with small pieces of plastic, worn away by the motion of ocean waves until it resembles sand.
We toss things away, we live a disrespectful life of consuming and disposing of items that, tragically, end up replacing or mimicing real elements of the Earth.
SugarShane on March 30 at 2:04 a.m.
Wow. Your right force_vector, I have seen the light. Global warming is a bunch of hooey perpetuated by a bunch of tree hugging long haired hippie friends of Jesus with no scientific merits.
Musta been that free koolaide they were handin out had me not usin the ol knoggin. Thats mighty white of you to remind me.
force_vector on March 30 at 7:36 a.m.
What ever light you saw wasn’t the one I was shining. How one goes from logical discussion as to the merits of a particular belief to a paragraph which contains “tree hugging long haired hippi friends of Jesus”, followed shortly thereafter by reference to your apparent source of liquid thought inspiration spiked with an irrelevant mention of race is beyond me. Not to sound too white or anything, but if that’s all you’ve got, I recommend taking a long, hard look at why you believe what you do and whether you believe so because of a reasonable interpretation of data and science, or whether it’s just easier to follow the herd and be spared the need to use your “knoggin”.
misjustice on March 30 at 7:43 a.m.
As usual, spoketucky, you nailed it! What’s up at WSU?
One of best things about this environmental debate is that it has become the story with the most number of comments; assuring that it will be archived and in its own way will live on long after the debate has died down.
I imagine a child doing research in the future and stumbling across this thread and reading about how those of us that care about a better world and sustainable living made our voices heard, despite attempts to silence us, misrepresent us, or deride us. And that makes me smile.
force_vector on March 30 at 8:48 a.m.
That sounds like something straight out of the 60’s. I suppose when my kids do research on why social security dried up and why their prosperity was limited by someone else’s need to feel good about themselves and “smile”, they can do some research and find that irresponsible simpletons tethered to a reality that exists only in their minds bled off the system and gave back nothing more than internet posts whining about how victimized they were. I’m sure they will find the same comfort in that that you apparently do. On the bright side though, I bet they’ll be able to grow a mean organic tomato that is both Earth friendly, and delicious.
misjustice on March 30 at 9:14 a.m.
Well, see force, there always is a bright side! And finally a point on which we can agree; more organic farming and fresh vegetables for everyone! Community gardens, another way to love Mother Earth! ; )
Those of us that are doing small things to make our world a better place to live in are not simpletons. We are involved and working to effect the change we want to see. And we will stay involved long after the debate has died dwon.
Thanks for contributing, force, and for ensuring that this thread is the most commented on story in the archives of SR; we environmentalists can’t do it all on our own!
And your kids will, no doubt, love reading their father’s posts! Think of it as part of your legacy, if you will!
Peace out! ; )
peteroundy on March 30 at 9:27 a.m.
Force vector, Your smashing these eco-freaks. I have yet to see any of them challenge the merits of your arguments. Typical leftist drivel. Change the subject when the heats on, and make every debate personal. Darn facts just get in the way of their beliefs.
force_vector on March 30 at 9:31 a.m.
My legacy will be to have raised kids who can think for themselves and get an education beyond discovery channel specials. And when they read their father’s posts, they will know old dad practiced what he preached. Believe it or not, I wouldn’t even be upset if they disagreed with me, so long as they did so from a conviction based on careful thought and research into all aspects of what amounts to a very complicated differential equation. Call it a fringe benefit to being a scientist; the ability to respect a position that is not your own if it is carefully thought out and intelligently defended. Environmentalists it seems are without that benefit.
Peace.
EagleEye on March 30 at 5:41 p.m.
Force Vector,
Thanks for the excellent and detailed info. Nothing like the FACTS to confuse and stir up some pretty small minds around here.
I completely agree with you that the MAJOR reasons for climate change have much more to do with solar related phenomenon than anything man is capable of doing. But if big corporations (and their government lackey’s) can succeed in making everyone feel guilty about their “carbon footprint”, they can then introduce expensive tax measures like Cap N Trade that are sold to the public as a way to “solve the problem”. The truth is, Cap N Trade is just another government tax and power grab that attempts to use junk science to justify it.
It’s interesting that an increasingly large percentage of scientists (particularly those who’s paychecks aren’t dependent upon government funding and thus have no axe to grind) have increasingly come out squarely against the junk science pushed by Al Gore.
I also share the views expressed here by “peteroundy” and others that we still have a responsibility to do our part and try to do what we can to not be major contributors to environmental problems.
However, I draw the line with those who think that Cap and Trade carbon taxing schemes are any kind of a good approach. We don’t have to kill off what’s left of our industry and/or financially crush the little guy in a blind and misguided attempt to “improve the environment at any cost”.
That’s just wrong and very unbalanced, as ultimately all increased costs will be passed to consumers in the form of much higher utility bills, etc. There are better ways to incentivize green technologies.
EE
EagleEye on March 30 at 5:50 p.m.
I get kind of tired of watching “spoketucky”, “sugar shane” and “misjustice” gang up on anyone who isn’t a card-carrying member of the Bolshevik wing of the Democratic Party.
Their personal attacks, sarcastic rants and even racist insults (in the case of “sugar shane”) are sad, but not out of character for many with Leftist views.
The amazing part about it is that they rarely (if ever) offer factual proof of their bias and claims. Their tactics are all about trying to knock other people down (which only reveals their ideologically bankrupt position). Their “arguments” all have at least one thing in common, a complete absence of any actual facts to back up their own positions.
‘Come on people, let’s just argue THE FACTS and stop with the petty name-calling and personal attacks. That just makes you look small…:-((((
EE
force_vector on March 30 at 6:10 p.m.
Thank you eagleeye, you clearly get it. Not neccessarily because we agree, but because you have obviously filtered your position through a screen of reason and level headedness. No one here who has disagreed with me has done so on the merits of my statements and/or presented facts (as you pointed out). That that’s the case is a sad reflection of our society, and doesn’t bode well for our future. When someone doesn’t argue facts with facts, it means they are afraid to even accept that they just might be wrong, let alone come to the ultimate conclusion that they in fact are wrong. Cap and tax and other like-minded initiatives seek to take advantage of the fact that people have bought into a scam that can only be sold to those who refuse to think. Unfortunately, we all will be forced to pay for the ignorance of others, well intentioned or not. I just hope when all is said and done, reason will prevail and we can get back to being the same common sense country that we once were.
Take care.
peteroundy on March 31 at 7:08 a.m.
Its the tower of babylon all over again. Babylon means literally to babble on. To say a whole lot of words with no substance. To talk over each other without hearing the other person out. early in the Bible, the whole world had one language - one common speech for all people. The people of the earth became skilled in construction and decided to build a city with a tower that would reach to heaven. By building the tower they wanted to reach heaven, but their true intentions were to make a name for themselves and also prevent their city from being scattered.
God came to see their city and the tower they were building. He perceived their intentions, and in His infinite wisdom, He knew this “stairway to heaven” would only lead the people away from God. He noted the powerful force within their unity of purpose. As a result, God confused their language, causing them to speak different languages so they would not understand each other. By doing this, God thwarted their plans. He also scattered the people of the city all over the face of the earth. Sounds Familiar to whats going on today, and i am in no way religious. I see the left as these biblical figures, building their green stairway to heaven.