Spokane7
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November 10, 2010 in City
Tense exchanges reveal city’s budget stress
Call it the e-mail thread heard round the city.
As Spokane wrestled with its sad but necessary budget-cutting in recent weeks, a series of e-mail messages – forwarded to all city employees – has laid out some of the stark lines of tension in three easy pieces:
1 – An angry, self-righteous police officer brusquely informing Council President Joe Shogan that he “deserves” his raise;
2 – A justifiably irritable Shogan blasting back;
3 – And, finally, a voice of reason from a municipal probation clerk who, unlike the cop or the councilman, is almost certain to lose her job.
“We all deserve our pay raises,” wrote Earline Huckins. “However, if it means that come January 1, 2011, I, and all of my fellow city employees, still get to come back to work, then take away any potential pay raise that might be considered for me until this economy turns around.”
Unfortunately, none of the city’s unions see it that way. Instead, the police, firefighters and other city unions are insisting on keeping the 4 percent raises they negotiated last year – and letting scores of their brothers and sisters lose their jobs.
You’d hate to be a junior dues-paying member of the union these days, knowing your entire livelihood is being swapped out for a raise that’s well over twice the average for state and local government workers this year.
But hey – it’s not like the Police Guild isn’t doing anything for the city. You might have noticed all the nice billboards around town. You know, the ones that say a well-staffed police force is important. Important, yes. But not as important as those raises.
But that’s background. Today’s story starts back on Sept. 28, shortly after the latest bad budget news was announced to city employees: Unions would be asked to give up raises and take on more health care costs, or face layoffs.
Tom Stanton, a police veteran of more than 26 years, fired off a message to Shogan that opened, “Hey Joe.”
“Have you ever had a crazy man throw a hatchet at your head?? I have!! Have you ever fought or been assaulted by mentals and drunks? I have!! Have you ever arrested armed subjects?? I have!! … Do fire personnel run into gunfights or disorderly people calls?? No, they don’t. They stand off and wait for us to arrive so we can secure the scene. Yet, we run into smoke-filled buildings to save people. All of the above situations are just some of the reasons why we deserve our pay raises … ”
Shogan responded 21 minutes later, sending his answer to all city e-mail accounts:
“I am a Vietnam Combat Vet. I have been shot at, and I have been attacked by mortars being ‘walked’ on top of me (have you?) and I have been shelled by artillery (have you?), I have dealt with IEDs and even tripped one that didn’t blow (have you?) … If you haven’t, then you have really overstepped your bounds.”
OK, so it’s all kind of beside the point. And I took a big verbal swing at Shogan earlier this year for treating citizens impolitely at council meetings.
But in this case the Shogan style seemed just right.
Huckins, though, was not amused. A 37-year-old mom with a 1-year-old baby and a mother with health problems, she has been notified that she’ll be laid off from her job as a municipal probation clerk. A member of Local 270, she’s been on the job for almost four years.
When Huckins got Shogan’s e-mail, she stewed about it for a while before responding. I’ll simply quote from her message here, because there’s no improving on it.
“I have been sitting here reading these e-mails and am astounded at the level of egotism wafting from them …
“I am a citizen of this wonderful city and I love my job AND, like the vast majority of my fellow employees from every department, I have obligations. I am a new mother, have a house payment, student loan payments, an elderly mother with medical issues and many other life situations. None of those things change the fact that there is a budget shortfall and that somewhere something has to give. …
“Officer Stanton, I especially want to comment on your statements about the fire department. There is never a time when it should be acceptable for such a blatant attack on another department. … Do you have any idea how despairing it is to know that there is such an intense dislike openly displayed between the two departments charged with our well-being? …
“In closing I would like to say that I have never served in a war. I have never been shot at or dealt with IEDs. However, I am the great-granddaughter, granddaughter, daughter, niece and cousin of men and women who have done those things and who are currently doing those things. … Perhaps you should both consider the contributions that every city employee makes before placing yourselves above the rest of us.”
Yeah. What she said.
Huckins was flooded with messages and calls of support. She says she received just one e-mail that wasn’t supportive.
From the Police Guild.
Which took the time to point out – to a soon-to-be laid-off fellow city worker – that they would not be giving up their raises.
Spokane City Hall E-mail ExchangeShawn Vestal can be reached at (509) 459-5431 or shawnv@spokesman.com.
The draw of the unknowable 
Dazzeetrader11 on November 10 at 2:45 a.m.
And hising quietly behind the scenes of discord are two people: Verner and Cooley…neither of which should have their jobs. Neither qualified. Both ridiculous in their manipulations of the truth.
Scoutster on November 10 at 6:19 a.m.
Why, oh why, do we force Officer Stanton to do these heroic things day after day?
Why do we make him be so gosh darned brave?
Let’s let this poor man go! The stress is obviously getting to him.
This Police Guild is the biggest bunch of crybabies and wusses I have ever seen in any government workforce.
The legislature needs to change the law so we can PATCO them. Let’s get some deserving, humble, and service oriented people in there.
Not dress-up, steroid addled BDUs just hoping for a chance to brawl with those they identify as “civilians”.
Let them eat cake.
Orange on November 10 at 6:44 a.m.
Stanton, you’re a moron. Firefighters standing back? LOL
I too am a Vet. Doesn’t make any difference what you’ve done in the past. Now is now.
Stanton, I didn’t get a raise this year either, doubt I’ll get one next year. Although making all of my G&O’s this year.
Prior to the “economy”, I was seeing very large raises with bonuses.
Did you or your Department making any goals? Judging from public comment about the Spokane Police Department, I think you all have a lot of room for improvement. After all, I’m the one paying your bills.
I don’t think any of you deserve a raise. In fact, I would like all raises suspended until your performance improves.
I’m happy I still have a job. You should be too.
In closing, are you sure that hatchet didn’t strike home? Check the mirror.
Diana on November 10 at 6:48 a.m.
Gotta love the “mine’s bigger than yours” exchange between Stanton and Shogan.
I recall that my kids gave up doing that in 7th grade. Or was it 6th?
lewis8457 on November 10 at 7:20 a.m.
It seems the police have to tell us how dangerous their jobs are so we will let them have high wages and a right to kill.
They can scream and cry about how hard their jobs are but one thought keeps going through my head…….QUIT
these union protected employees don’t have any idea what it is like in the private sector. No one cares if we get raises or loose our benefits. That is OK but lord behold don’t make our police live with out their 5 thousand dollar raises.
After they shoot one of us they tell us how tough their jobs are when they want a raise they tell us how tough their jobs are.
The police and firemen are the reason for much of the budget crunch their union demand they make high wages that would bankrupt a city twice our size.
And while they are driving around in their Lexus we are supposed to care……sorry i don’t.
hawken on November 10 at 7:32 a.m.
This article only increases my disdain for unions.
I must keep in mind unions consist of the people who are their members and in most cases,,, represent the attitudes of the membership, concerning salary and benefits.
I too am growing weary of hearing what a dangerous job our public safety employees “have” to do.
Of the 15 most dangerous jobs per “Business Insider”:
#10 - Police
#13 - Firefighters
More dangerous Jobs:
1- Fishermen and Fishery Workers
2- Logging
3- Aircraft Pilots
4- Steel Workers
5- Farmers/Ranchers
6- Electrical Power Line Workers
7- Truck Drivers
8- Refuse Workers
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-15-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-2010-3#no-15-grounds-maintenance-workers-1
No government employee should be getting a raise right now, while others are loosing their jobs.
de3 on November 10 at 7:35 a.m.
In the fall of 2008, private businesses began laying off and drastically cutting back expenses.
Government plodded along as it always did, incorrectly assuming there was nothing to worry about - prosperity will return shortly.
Two years late to the game, government is now having to re-size its operation to meet the real world outside of government.
It should have started this process 2 years ago, and at least a year ago instead of playing a game of “extend our budget and pretend everything will get better”.
This is nothing more than failed leadership in local governments that are now faced with coming from way behind to right size their operations.
These emails show a city that is dysfunctional, with employees more concerned about themselves than serving the organization’s goals and the needs of their customers. This is the classic entitlement mindset of local government employees.
This too is a failure of management that has lost sight of their organization’s purpose.
Albert on November 10 at 8:03 a.m.
I had a lady come at me with a butcher knife, had numerous fights with drunks, 3 times confronted armed suspects, and more…- never shot one single person in my 20 year career in law enforcement. I guess that makes me boring in the eyes of a “guild”… We NEVER screamed about our pay - because I was a reserve - “like free” deputy that rose to the rank of an assistant chief…oops. The point: If you were to allow a group of highly trained and state certified Level 1 Reserve Officers, you would no longer need these neanderthal’s we call “guild member” police officers and deputies. There are solutions to this problem and the answers begin with the Mayor and City Council who dictate what will be done within the City & County. However “guilds” support and fund campaigns - don’t they?
Of course nothing will be done to address these issues because of the $$$$ that floats so freely into political coffers. Emails & ego’s all serve to promote neanderthal’s at every level. The only “kindness” that is demonstrated in this entire pile of junkola comes from the people who REALLY serve as demonstrated by an associate who will soon loose her job. How sad. Blessings on her for rising above the degenerates of the scum pit.
jt1wilson on November 10 at 8:10 a.m.
AMAZING!
Mentals and Crazy people?
Is this what the officer thinks of the citizenry?
Have you ever been run off the road by a cop in pursuit of a scofflaw and injured??
I HAVE!
Have you ever had your home wrongly broken into and ransacked by the police due to wrong information they had?
I HAVE!
And YES I have had a lethal weapon pointed at me for NO cause
by a spokane cop!
misjustice on November 10 at 8:12 a.m.
E-mail Gate?
This is how some of our public servants spend their time, attacking each other via the Internets. And seemingly while on duty [check the date and time stamps on the e-mails] and likely using city computers to do so.
Thanks, Shawn, for a glimpse at the dark under belly of the city’s budget woes; and for posting the e-mail exchanges.
; )
eagleproducer on November 10 at 8:53 a.m.
mijustice: You left out while using their city e-mail accounts.
I can’t believe the ballz of the Spokane Police Guild. I think I’ve mentioned I worked for the Guild a long time ago. I helped organize and execute a fund raising event that involved selling tickets to a circus to raise money for a scholarship fund to benefit the children of slain officer, Brian Orchard. I remember being treated well by most of the members I encountered. I think they still believed in to protect and serve back then.
Those boys coud drink, too! And drive afterwards!
PlanB on November 10 at 9:01 a.m.
The memo forgot to mention that the crazies, mentals, and drunks were other police officers. He was just describing an evening at the guild.
MrNatural on November 10 at 9:03 a.m.
This exchange is appalling and disgusting but gives the public a look at the mindset of the Police Guild in this town. Truly boorish and bloviated.
voice_of_reason on November 10 at 9:52 a.m.
There was a time when ‘public service’ actually meant that. You chose that profession and duty because the most important thing to you, in your life, was those around you. Years ago, most of these public servants actually performed these duties for free and in some cases, even today in small communities, continue to do so. Volunteer Firemen. Volunteer Peace Officers. Etc, etc. It is sad to see what they have become. I have served in the military. I have been a Law Enforcement Officer. I have ‘been there and done that’. But I would never have put my bank account above the public for which I served. If you want to become rich, please go back to school and become a surgeon or nuclear physicist, and stop trying to become rich off of this community and its residents whom you have sworn to protect and SERVE.
johno on November 10 at 10:08 a.m.
Shame on the union leaders for putting a pay raise above keeping other members of their union employed. What ever happened to union brotherhood and fraternity? I wholeheartedly support the idea of unions, but these leaders appear to have lost track of the greater ideals that made the union movement great. We are almost in a deflationary economy so the cost of living hasn’t gone up that much. Is it really that much of a hardhip to sacrifice a little so that others in your union can keep their heads above water? Please search your hearts and do the right thing. Don’t give in to greed.
shanusmaximus on November 10 at 10:26 a.m.
This is what you get when you invite the vampire of unions into the public sector. Private sector is a whole other ballgame. Just look at Europe…they strike every other weekend. Guild…….WTF is this? Medieval times? Save the budget and BAN unions from public service.
DavidBray on November 10 at 10:34 a.m.
Having dealt with the complete lack of maturity and rationalization of Mr. Shogun in the past, I have absolutely no use for him; especially as a “public servant”. There’s a ton of veterans out here and most don’t bring up their combat experience as a tool in an argument.
At the same time, we all know that the police have a dangerous job, but it’s a job they sought! The mentality of too many cops (but not all) is that they’re superior individuals with authority and a weapon to back it up. Somewhere in the training of police officers there’s a major flaw. I have no doubt that it wouldn’t take much to have an officer in Spokane pull his weapon and shoot you.
As for the Police Guild: they just support police no matter what. Right or wrong doesn’t matter. The law (when it’s in their favor) and the union is their god. They are NOT there for the benefit of the people of Spokane and could generally care less. They’ve shown this attitude time and again.
Joe Shogun, is a fraud.
Officer Stanton is full of himself and selfish.
The Guild is a self-serving enemy of Spokane citizens.
Shame on all of the above!
Ms. Huckins is a true American Hero. Her maturity, understanding and willingness to sacrifice for the benefit of others is a model for the rest of us.
My thanks to her.
schleufer on November 10 at 10:37 a.m.
this isnt a time to be cutting jobs. nothing wrong with getting ahead but this isnt the way to do it.
i have always worked union and it has always paid more than the non union jobs for the same work. its definatly not a get rich scheme but if you want to see how it effects the local economy all you have to do is look at the parking lots of the union and non union companies. the union lots have nice 4 wheel drives and SUVs and the non union lots look more like an extension of spauldings auto wrecking.
if the company is doing well i see it as the result of good management and the workforce working hard to protect what they have and i see no reason why the workers shouldnt enjoy the benefits of that. there is always the accusation that the unions protect the worthless and i hate to admit it but they do. for the most part they are a bunch of skilled hard working people but like anywhere there are slobs. the company has time to weed those out during the new hire probation time and if they dont you just get what you ask for.
as a teenager back in the 70s nearly 7000 of us went on strike for 3 months. the company had told us the crafts that all they had to offer was a buck an hour raise and thats it. our unions said we can do better so we took to the picket lines then after 3 months they took a dime away from the crafts and offered it to the less skilled union and with them out numbering us it was ratified. we lost 3 months pay just so in the end to be sold out by our union brothers for a dime. i have spent all these years trying to figure out who to be more pissed at, them or the company. this infighting dont surprise me, they want what they want and screw everybody else.
zelda on November 10 at 10:37 a.m.
Doesn’t give me any peace of mind reading about the police guild’s “kill or be killed” attitude toward other city workers’ jobs while protecting their own. The last batch of emails we saw from SPD talked about a “cage fight” and “chaos” in the Creach shooting investigation. Seems like that’s SOP at the Public Safety Building.
hawken on November 10 at 10:52 a.m.
Some issues, such as this should demand consensus, regardless of political ideology, when people are willing to use some basic common sense.
Hey Madam Mayor…. follow the lead of Ronald Reagan,,,, do you remember???? when he went head to head with the air traffic controllers union? He fired them all!
Meanwhile, all of the union advocates were screeching,,, warning how all of our commercial airlines would be at risk,,,, how our economy would suffer… and on and on… None of that happened! Did it…
Is it only Republicans that have the courage to stand nose to nose with unions?
I know, I know…. Republicans don’t feed at the trough of the unions… Still no excuse!
Unions own Democrats!
Obama is the lap puppy of unions!
What if we all called the mayor and members of the city council, and DEMANDED that they stand against such union madness.
Obviously, all of you Democrats on this string are more culpable than others…. You’re the ones whom sing the song of the “union label.”
CALL the Mayor and city council, as Democrats! Demand that they stand up against the unions!
Other city workers are losing their jobs…. while the public safety unions are demanding higher pay?
schleufer on November 10 at 11:03 a.m.
re: hawken
Hey Madam Mayor…. follow the lead of Ronald Reagan,,,, do you remember???? when he went head to head with the air traffic controllers union? He fired them all!
i remember that, i remember alot of companies going down like dominoes after that. mine was one of them. you think this was a great republican plan? every one of those jobs all across this country means one less home sale and all the stuff that goes into it. i have been saying every since then that you show me someone who thought regan was a great president and ill show you someone who didnt lose thier job because of what he did. regan was a great president because republicans say he was, history dont show it that way.
hawken on November 10 at 11:31 a.m.
schleufer …
Sounds like your business was dependent upon the air traffic controllers union.???
I mean, after all,,,, Reagan did replace the traffic controllers….
The FAA still needed all of its equipment, office supplies, computers… etc,,, etc…
The only thing Reagan did was bust the union.
Or is it possible that you went out of business for other reasons…. and Reagan just provides you an excuse for your failure in business?
Now I am quite sure that not every FAA, air traffic controller, related business…. went out of business as a result of Reagan busting the union! Yes quite sure….
Therefore, I conclude, that you probably went out of business for reasons that you would rather not fully disclose here….
Understandable.
It’s much easier to blame Reagan.
hawken on November 10 at 11:38 a.m.
schleufer… after thought….
If indeed you went out of business…. if….. because Reagan busted the union….
Then I must also conclude that your business was mostly, if not totally based upon sucking at the public teat…. taxpayer dollars….
One should consider how a shift in the political landscape might put them out of business… if they are dependent upon the public teat.
schleufer on November 10 at 11:59 a.m.
it was a family owned business with about 400 people and wasnt reliant on tax dollar contracts. if you were a victem of this like many were all across this country were i wouldnt be in a position to try and explain it. like i said show me someone who thought regan was a great president and ill show you someone who didnt lose thier job because of what he did. it didnt just begin and end with the air traffic controllers.
it started like a dark cloud coming at you, you could tell it was bad but you didnt know how bad it was until it was over and then the hopless feeling that you knew the ones that could help were the ones who did it to you. that wasnt a rescue boat that just wasnt coming.
so you think its better to just throw the bums out other than common sense or finding something that works? how about so many people in the ranks that dont like this situation but would be willing to make change so that others didnt lose jobs.
kick em to the curb and look at what they are facing. less tax dollars for this state healthcare to keep em going til the find a new job. and now the republicans wanting to repeal healthcare, so what is your real solution?
jddavis on November 10 at 12:25 p.m.
Seems to me that the pay for Police Officers has been acceptable for Officer Stanton for 26+ years. I am certain that being a Police Officer is hazardous duty and requires daily contact with those of questionable character, however, if Officer Stanton or any other officer think they are underpaid, they can resign at any time.
Ms Huckins in right on! Kudos to her for calling out the tomfoolery of the budget crisis and how it impacts employees other than poice and fire.
cpd805 on November 10 at 1:10 p.m.
To shed SOME light on this issue…..
I hate unions period. Police or not. I think they share a great deal of responsibility to our economic woes, whether it is the Police Guild demanding more, or the UAW bankrupting GM (but they get 17.5% ownership of GM as a result of the bailout).
Regarding the specific e-mails….Orange stated: “Stanton, you’re a moron. Firefighters standing back? LOL ” Here, Stanton was pointing to one very specific incident where both officers and firefighters were on scene at a house fire. There was a 3 year old child trapped in the house, and the officers were packing snow into their uniforms in an attempt to go inside to rescue the child. The firefighters (not necessarily their fault due to federal regulations) would not go into the house until they had another fire truck arrive. The officers were repeled back by the smoke, and fire would not lend their SCBA’s. The child died. This incident has been an issue of contention between police and fire for years. That is just the background behind what Stanton was saying.
Standon should not have let his emotions get the best of him and fire off that e-mail….no question. But that e-mail was sent ONLY to Shogun. Joe, “shotgun” Shogun replied the e-mail to all city users, which was an emotional and immature thing to do. Shogun does this all the time, send’s his unwanted e-mails to the entire city, and it is very annoying.
And while I do not support the Police Guild on a lot of issues….for the record, the Guild did offer to give up the 4% raise for next year, but the city would not consider that unless medical benefits were opened up as well. The city publicly says no one will give up the raise, but that is disingenuous….they want more than the raises. The raises have been offered.
Both the Guild and the City are partially at fault for this impasse, and both sides in my estimation are being bullheaded about this.
reservedparking on November 10 at 1:23 p.m.
Folks,
ShogUn is a restaurant downtown.
The city council member is Joe ShogAn.
gbcabinets on November 10 at 1:42 p.m.
I grounded my 13 year old for abusing email like this.
Dazzeetrader11 on November 10 at 3:30 p.m.
I recall…maybe erroneously..that Shogan manged a supply depot as a 2nd Lieutenant. I also don’t think he was ever in active combat. Perhaps the Paper should verify his statements.
Scoutster on November 10 at 4:16 p.m.
cpd…
Just to confirm, however, didn’t the Guild get an extra week of vacation last year in lieu of pay raises (which is really a 5% raise)?
cpd805 on November 10 at 4:47 p.m.
Scout,
An increase in vacation time is not money out of the City’s pocket. Vacation time is not allowed to be used if it incurs overtime, so the out of pocket cost for the City is basically zero. Because patrol staffing is already low…making vacation time harder to use, the net effect of this increase for many officers is more unused hours sitting in their vacation banks.
tardwhisperer on November 10 at 5:09 p.m.
Albert, if you truly were an assistant chief, it shows in your rhetoric. An admin person you certainly are. Now…the point is this….the email exchange by Ofc. Stanton was a private one. He sent Shogan that personally…to challenge him about his job as the city council president and head of the public safety committee with the position he was expounding about SPD …he does not demean SFD does he? Shogan chose to include all city users in his response…so who is the whiner here? The message is no one wants to do the job of a police officer, but you certainly damn well will call 911 when you need one. You are asking people, just like you , with families, obligations, worries, debts, children, etc etc to do something you have not the fortitude to try but you don’t want to compensate them for it. And it really is not about the money…it IS about the city standing up to their word. For every city close to the size of Spokane, SPD is at the botom of the salary list. The Guild made an offer to the city, which included giving back the raise the city contracted to give (!) the police department, plus other compensations, that would save the city well over 1 million dollars…but the city refused it. REFUSED it. Keep blaming the cops for all the ills you don’t like…go for it. There will be a time…and very soon the way things are looking….when you call 911 and you won’t get a cop to report your crime to, to bitch at, to whine about your bad parenting, to pull your butt out of the abyss of drug addiction…to serve and protect you even when you dont care about yourself……….
BitofBacon on November 10 at 5:43 p.m.
Amen, tard, amen.
NE2Spokane on November 10 at 5:55 p.m.
Shame on the SR for not putting out the full story. Has anyone not noticed the subject of Ofcr Stanton’s email, it is RE: Pay Raises and Lay-Offs FOLLOWUP, which means he was replying to an earlier email.
Maybe the outrage toward Ofcr Stanton is misguided because all the facts were not presented, maybe that is what the SR wanted. We do live in a public records state.
Give us the full story and cross check the facts in it, as once again we live in a public records state and then refile this story!
Thayne on November 10 at 6:35 p.m.
All you Reagan lovers, Reagan was an idiot. The controllers were not going on strike for better wages. They were striking to bring light to the unsafe and defunct equipment they were forced to use. They wanted radar and radios that were from the same decade not 30+ years old. I know this because I was a controller in the Marines at that time and worked across the room from civilian controller who had to scramble weekly to keep people in the air safe when their radar went down or radios quit. Reagan was a thug who thought he knew everything. He didn’t even listen to the controllers. The US is very lucky there weren’t serious aviation disasters in the weeks following his actions.
Scoutster on November 10 at 7:02 p.m.
cpd..
OK..but that is what happened, correct? I just want to be sure.
(My guess is that people have found endless creative and unanticipated ways to figure out how to use that time. No judgment, just observation.)
Scoutster on November 10 at 7:03 p.m.
cpd..
plus, I would imagine whatever is sitting in their “vacation vault” is applied either to compensation (cash) or to pension upon leaving the force.
Would that be correct?
lewis8457 on November 10 at 7:13 p.m.
“For every city close to the size of Spokane, SPD is at the botom of the salary list”.
Tard Lets see the list. Also include average income per capita that makes a huge difference not just the size of the city.
Lets see Spokane average wage is 38 thousand dollars now the average wage for a police officer ranges according to rank 47-120 thousand dollars is that about right? Plus golden benefits lets add 20 grand a year per officer to that figure. So now we are at 67-140 thousand dollars a year.
Explain to me how people making 38 grand can afford taxes to pay for police and firemen making 25-100% more the they are?
Bob_Knows on November 10 at 7:59 p.m.
Lay off half the blue gun thugs, and cut the pay of the rest by 25%. If any of the remaining gun thugs don’t accept the lower pay, they can go pound sand. So much the better. Time to CUT TAXES.
Bob_Knows on November 10 at 8:03 p.m.
What if we taxpayers stop rewarding them with a 2 week paid vacation every time they murder another citizen. I bet that would save a pile of TAX MONEY as well as saving the lives of a lot of good men.
Bob_Knows on November 10 at 8:08 p.m.
If you put up a “Help Wanted” sign in front of City Hall, you would get 4,000 applications by the next day. Let the union goons leave town if they like. They can be replaced with HONEST MEN by tomorrow afternoon.
Bob_Knows on November 10 at 8:18 p.m.
If you read OSHA statistics the municipal street repair crew is about 3x as likely to be killed on the job as a blue shirt thug. The garbage collectors are about 2.5 x as likely to die on the job. Despite all their sniveling and whining, the actual death rate for blue gun thugs is not much higher than office work. If we are paying for risk, the street repair crew should get the high pay.
Real MEN’s jobs like farming, mining, construction, trucking, etc., are where the risks are. Sniveling cowards in blue shirts whine a lot, but they don’t die on the job like a real man’s job.
cpd805 on November 10 at 9:31 p.m.
Scout,
Yes, SPD officers got extra vacation time in lieu of a COLA.
And yes, it is a benefit. You can cash it out when you retire, but when you have 10 -20 years left in you career, you are not really thinking about that.
Scoutster on November 11 at 12:26 a.m.
Then I would say they have had their time at the trough for now, they did pretty well last year, and this year its time to be respectful to the citizens the Guild is meant to serve and man up.
misjustice on November 11 at 7:56 a.m.
Or woman up, as the case may be…
; )
kennyhuston on November 11 at 12:16 p.m.
cpd 805 - thanks for explaining the underlying story the general public may have been unaware of. How sad. If it were my child in that burning house I probably would’ve been arrested for having taken one of the firefighters’ SCBA’s by force. Can you please provide more details on this event, (when, where, and persons involved)?
Lastly, didn’t Standon’s mother tell him that if he’s going to put it down in writing he should just ASSUME the puiblic may see it?
Because if you’re worried about all the world knowing what you’ve done … . . maybe you shouldn’t be doing it?
Transparency in government is a good thing.
o_pleez on November 11 at 1:38 p.m.
Kenny, don’t hold your breath wating for CPD to provide any info on that incident, because it NEVER happened. No 3 year old died while SFD stood in the front yard watching cops “pack snow into their uniforms”
He/she will most likely fall on the “I can’t give specifics….blah blah blah…”, that people that post BS usually fall back on.
CPD….when and where? Put your money where your mouth is.
cpd805 on November 12 at 9:59 p.m.
Kenny,
I will have to check with some officers who were actually there to get any more specifics, other than this was several years ago (2001 - 2003 ish). I’m going on my recollection from what officers who were there had told me. I was going to talk to one of them today but they were busy due to the shooting. I will try to get you a better time and general area (obviously I will not give any residential addresses in this type of forum). Names are out of the question.
In the post before, I mentioned federal regulations firefighters have to follow that would prevent them from rushing into a burning building. The firefighters have to follow what is known as the “2 in 2 out” rule. This is an OSHA regulation. Here is a link to that:
http://www.iaff.org/hs/PDF/2in2out.pdf
Dear Pleeze,
Welcome to the forum…..what other monikers have you posted under? Sadbuttrue? Lewis? Are you an SFD employee who was there or can provide a constructive perspective?
o_pleez on November 13 at 10:30 a.m.
Right, the “I don’t know specifics” reply. As I predicted.
Nice try on the “2-in 2-out”, but it doesn’t apply in a rescue situation.
How about posting a link to one of the many news reports that would have been published?
Addresses of fire and police incidents are public record as well, as evidenced by number of news reports that routinely list that info.
Your story is bull–-. Plain and simple.
cpd805 on November 14 at 8:30 p.m.
Kenny (and Pleez I guess),
I was off on the dates and age of the victim child. The fire I referenced above ocurred on December 3rd, 2006. It occurred on the 300 block of E. Nora. I also learned that the child was not 3 years old, but was actually 2 years old. Five SPD officers attempted to rescue the child while 2 SFD firefighters waited for their next truck to arrive. The 5 officers each recieved a Medal of Merit from the SPD on February 27th for their efforts. One of the officers attempted CPR on the child and assisted with the CPR in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. The 2 year old died of her injuries. The officers on scene confirmed what I wrote above except to add that they also attempted to use the snow up their faces in an attempt to filter the smoke, but that did not work.
Pleez, reference the “2 in 2 out” rule, I looked it up and you are right, it does not apply in a rescue operation. I was just giving the SFD personnel the benefit of the doubt….looks like I can’t do that now, which just exacerbates the rift between SOME police and SOME fire personnel.
I, however, have a good working relationship with the SFD as a whole, and have personal friends that are firefighters and have confidence in their bravery and abilities. Apparently I can’t say that for all of them, just like I can’t say that for all police officers.
o_pleez on November 15 at 9:41 a.m.
OK, date and location, thanks.
The facts are a bit fuzzy, however.
I’m familiar with the fire in question. SPD was first on scene, if I remember right it was reported by a patrol officer. The first arriving SFD unit was a paramedic unit, 2 person crew, no water. However, right behind them was Ladder 1, who laddered the building and removed the child. The child was treated at the scene by SFD Paramedics, who also accompanied the child to the ER.
I repeat, no one stood and watched, refusing to go in. Thanks for at least giving me an incident to work with, so I can shed some light.
The bulk of the fire was on the first floor, so there was no way for the first crew to get in through the front door, which is why the child was removed via ladder. Medic units don’t carry ground ladders.
Without a hose line, there was no way to make it into that house and up the stairs. Again, that’s why a ladder was used.
Smearing snow on your face to filter smoke? A good way to get dead.
Packing snow in your uniform? A good way to get boiled alive.
Polyester uniforms into a fire? Maybe if you want to be the human torch. Even turnout gear has it’s limits, especially when exposed to direct flame contact.
Giving a cop an SCBA, when he/she has no clue how to use it and has likely never worn one? Sure, right after they hand over the taser for me to use.
If SPD got upset with SFD’s actions at this fire, it’s due to a lack of knowledge about FIre ground ops, and the limits of what can be done.
cpd805 on November 15 at 10:10 a.m.
Thank you Pleeze, that does shed light into the situation, at least in my eyes. The officers on scene, reported that it took a while for the second fire rig to get on scene, and the stress of the situation may have influenced the perceptions of some people as to just what the paramedic crew was doing before the ladder truck arrived and how long it took to get there. Is there a CAD timeline that would indicate when it got there in relation to the medic rig?
We get the same criticism when we respond to different calls where citizens wonder why we are not acting quicker, not realizing that there are very legitimate reasons we do not rush into some situations. Maybe that needs to be realized by law enforcement officers themselves.
Regardless, the intent of my posts were to outline the apparent rift between some fire and police personnel, explaining Stanton’s frustration, not to criticize the SFD. Like I said, I have a good relationship with the vast majority of the SFD personnel I have worked with. Thank for you constructive perspective. Also, I apologize if I have spread any ill will to the SFD through my posts.
bszottlinger on November 15 at 1:44 p.m.
Interesting isn’t it, how perceptions can differ based on an individuals understanding of a situation received through interaction with one’s own peer group? I would be willing to bet that the statements given during the investigation of the child’s death by the personnel from the SFD and SPD differed considerably as well.
The same is true in any traumatic situation. In the case of Officer Involved Shootings one officer may perceive a threat while another officer may not. The trick is to have an investigation that takes into account the various perceptions and reconstructs the incident based on the evidence in the best possible way.
If I recall correctly, from experts I have dealt with, one of the important considerations an officer must understand prior to taking a shot is the “background”. What is behind the target, where will my shot end up if I miss, etc. A lot to ask in any situation for an officer, but it’s my understanding that it is an important part of the training officers receive. At this point that would be the only concern I may have about this shooting.
cpd805:
Please correct me if I’m mistaken.
cpd805 on November 15 at 5:04 p.m.
Brad, that is true. The backdrop is definitely something to be aware of. As it is a big consideration, it is only one consideration. The totality of circumstances needs to be taken into consideration, and sometimes a threat can be imminent to the point that it will outweigh the backdrop consideration.
Regarding this case, if I were an officer on scene, my big concern would be….if he was just trying to get away, why grab the shotgun and take it with him? Grabbing it and running with it would slow him down considerably, so what was his intention regarding taking the gun with him? He already fired the gun into one residence, and he was running toward a residential area. In his attempt to get away with the gun, he fired at least one shot. The imminent nature of these circumstances may be enough to overcome the backdrop consideration.
o_pleez on November 15 at 5:24 p.m.
cpd…. no harm, no foul.
As you know, regardless of how quickly we get to a scene, it’s never quick enough for the persons involved. We probably think that as ff and cops we should be immune from the “it took you forever!” syndrome, but we aren’t.
Stay safe
bszottlinger on November 20 at 3:24 p.m.
Cpd805:
I certainly realize the “imminent nature” of the threat as it has been reported. Let me reiterate, from the sound of things lethal force was necessary. The release of the number of shots fired does cause me concern about “Contagious Shooting” and as you are aware when that happens little consideration is given to “Backdrop”, or where the bullet may end up.
Based on the number of rounds fired I would hope that during the course of the officer interviews the investigators took into consideration “Contagious Shooting” and upon determining the position of each officer asked the appropriate questions.
Although it appears unlikely this shooting would end up in civil litigation, it sure could have if one of the rounds wounded or killed an innocent bystander. If the shooting ended in a civil litigation I would suspect the plaintiff would have an expert testifying regarding Contagious Shooting and if the OIS investigation did not carefully cover that aspect it would look bad before a jury.