Spokane7
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October 25, 2010 in City
Valley man shot by deputy is ID’d
Neva Harris, the mother of Quentin D. Dodd, who was shot and killed by a Spokane Sheriff’s deputy Sunday night, tries to make sense of the loss of her son Monday, Oct. 25, 2010.
(Full-size photo)(All photos)
“He was very aggressive and threatening, so I said, ‘You need to go,’“ said Melinda Seymour. “By that time, the police had already been called.”
Dodd, 50, was holding an arrowhead-type knife when a deputy found him standing in the middle of Progress Road, about a block from his faith-based halfway house at 507 N. Sommer Road, where he’d lived for about 2 1/2 months.
The deputy requested assistance, according to police, then at some point opened fire.
Dodd was pronounced dead at the Valley Hospital and Medical Center.
Initial reports from Sunday night indicated the deputy was 20 feet away from Dodd at the time of the shooting, but Officer Jennifer DeRuwe, spokeswoman for the Spokane Police Department, said she couldn’t confirm that.
The Police Department is investigating the shooting under a critical-incident protocol designed to avoid having law enforcement agencies investigating themselves.
“It’s too early to say what happened, but I’m confident in all of our law enforcement,” DeRuwe said. “Obviously the officer was presented with some sort of threat.”
Dodd’s family is dubious.
In their home on Crown Avenue in Spokane’s Hillyard neighborhood Monday, several members of Dodd’s family, which includes seven brothers and four sisters, looked at old photographs of him in a National Guard uniform and wondered how a man already familiar with life’s difficulties could end up on the receiving end of police gunfire – the fourth such person in two months.
“I want justice,” said his sister, Reedie Dodd. “Me, I feel like it’s cold-blooded murder. … We’re all in a state of shock right now.”
The deputy has not yet been interviewed, but the back-up deputy gave a statement the night of the shooting.
DeRuwe said she expects to release more information, including the officer’s name, by Thursday, to “put this in context a little more.”
“I’m sure the family’s upset – they’re grieving,” she said. “It’s a loss of life.”
Dodd has felony convictions for methamphetamine delivery, harassment, meth possession and unlawful possession of a firearm.
He went to rehab for methamphetamine addiction before moving into the Sommer Road home, his sister said.
He’s worked cannery, meat packing and other industrial jobs but is disabled and was receiving government assistance, his family said. Dodd had struggled with drugs since his divorce in the 1990s, was diabetic and had kidney problems that required medication, family said.
His mother, Neva Harris, said she last saw him a week or two ago when he stopped by to pick up his mail. He didn’t stay long.
“He was not a happy person,” said Laneva Dodd, Dodd’s oldest sister.
Seymour said she asked Dodd to leave Sunday after he threatened housemates while waving a sharp object, which deputies identified as an obsidian knife. The knives typically are handcrafted from volcanic rock and mounted onto wild game antlers.
Investigators found the weapon near Dodd’s body after he was shot on Progress Road just north of Valley Way. Dodd’s home is about a block away.
His nephew, Michael Dodd, questioned why police used lethal force instead of a Taser or baton.
“Why didn’t they take other steps before that?” said Michael Dodd, a student at Eastern Washington University. “It’s so apparent that they should have taken other steps.”Police firearms expert Thomas Aveni, executive director of New Hampshire-based Police Policy Studies Council, said the justification of police shootings involving suspects with knives depends “on the proximity of the person with the knife, and whether there are any other bystanders that might be threatened with the knife.”
“If you’re going to use pepper spray, it means you have to be way too close to a knife,” said Aveni, who taught a three-day deadly force management course for the Spokane County Sheriff’s Office about a year and a half ago. “In less than a second, a guy can have a knife in your chest at that distance.”
Seymour said police have responded to the home, called Restoration Ministries, several times and “have been so good to us.”
She and her husband don’t live at the home but visit regularly with each resident.
Dodd had “lots of hurt” he was struggling to work through, she said.
“He just didn’t communicate very well,” she said. “It’s just hard to get to the nitty gritty of stuff when you’re not talking.”
She described him as compassionate and caring with a “very sweet spirit.”
“But he was definitely a very lost soul,” she said. “It’s unfortunate that all hell broke lose within himself.”
Human trafficking suspects released 
drywitt99 on October 25 at 12:48 a.m.
Does anyone have any data regarding how police involved shootings in Spokane/Spokane Valley/Spokane County compare to other similar-sized communities throughout the US?
The incidence seems high here…..but what are the facts??
oneanddone on October 25 at 4:10 a.m.
Ah, facts - there’s the rub. Based on the blather from most of the posters on SR you’d think at least half the local populace has been shot at or by the local police. If you come at the cops with a deadly weapon don’t be shocked that they shoot you down. It used to be called ‘suicide by cop’ but now it seems to have morphed into ‘murder by cop’. From what I’ve seen were better off without the vast majority of those dispatched by the police.
SpokaneLiberal on October 25 at 7:09 a.m.
It wasn’t immediately clear what prompted the shooting.
Is it because the deputy went on vacation 20 minutes later?
Or because they need to check with forensics before saying he shot at them so they don’t mess that excuse up again?
Or is it because they can’t think of any reason and they already used “it was an accident” in the last 30 days about an unarmed pregnant woman?
Oh and this is the 8th officer involved shooting since last October. I don’t know how that compares, but that means one out of every 50,000 county residents gets shot every year.
philipgregory on October 25 at 7:11 a.m.
Despite one… ‘s attitude if you have something sharp you deserve to be shot, police in other states/cities are able to diffuse such situations without killing or shooting anyone.
Drywitt’s question is what we need an answer to.
There isn’t enough information on this incident, but there definately seems far too many such police shootings in a metropolitan area this size.
We NEED the facts, not congecture.
lewis8457 on October 25 at 7:18 a.m.
what ever happened to back up? If the guy was 20 feet away and walking away then, where is the immediate danger to warrant being shot? Was he shot in the back?
where is all the special training that makes our police so damn high paid? there only thought pattern is shoot.
and why even have anyone investigate police shootings? it is a waste of money, when the results are always the same rather they shoot a meth head or a pastor.
The real problem is they keep shooting people that don’t deserve to get shot. And then when they tell us it was justified many people are getting confused are we the citizens they protect or the possible terrorists they can kill at will? Sadly to say it the later.
and of course the piglits wil be telling us how dangerous their jobs are and blah, blah, blah.
PhiltheBibliophil on October 25 at 7:29 a.m.
More evidence that Spokane is living up to its pseudonyms! Spocompton and Spokanistan!
misjustice on October 25 at 7:31 a.m.
ANOTHER citizen shot/killed at the hands of the police?
de3 on October 25 at 7:33 a.m.
At the rate of police shootings since August 25th, 4 more people will be shot by the police before this year is over in Spokane. What’s really going on?
lewis8457 on October 25 at 7:34 a.m.
Lets see;
if you go into a mini mart to buy a pop you can be murdered in cold blood.
if you go crazy and threaten to jump off a bridge instead of calling mental health help the SPD will taser you when they get you off the railing prompting you to jump. It is either jump of be beat to death, hell of a choice.
if your a drug user going into convulsions you can be tasered to death. And the cops think it is funny to see your body jump with every shock.
If you are a long time school teacher and outstanding citizen you can be charged with felony endangerment by not dropping a hammer when requested.
If you are a young mother that doesn’t strap your kid in the big brother seat and something happens and your child dies you are sent to prison for 15 years.
If you take you gun outside your home you WILL be shot
If you take your butter knife out of your home you WILL be shot.
if your body releases spit on a officers shoes as he and his buddies beat you to death you can WILL be killed.(per Otto)
If you stage a peaceful demonstration against police brutality in a public park you will be beat to a pulp and arrested.
But if you are a cop you can kill at will, pastors, disabled, senior citizens, no one is free from their wrath.
yes oneonone all some of us do is complain.
Albert on October 25 at 8:07 a.m.
This sickens me - not kidding. We all know that absolutely nothing will be done about this excessive use of force by yet another goose stepper. There is absolutely no protection for the citizens from these species.
crstrode on October 25 at 8:13 a.m.
In most places when a cop shoots someone, it is big news. Here in Spokane County, it is becoming routine.
I predict the media will soon relegate these shootings to the “Public Records” column in the newspaper. No need to waste precious space that could be used for paid commercial or political advertising.
uncleralph on October 25 at 8:14 a.m.
Statistics don’t mean anything unless you can draw a conclusion from looking at an apple and an orange. No two cities are identical. Nothing is known about this incident and the attitudes are already on display. If the police have a rough time hiring good cops, it is because the “attitude people” make an already tough job unbearable with their sharp little fingers. Thus compounding the problem. There are enough good attorneys and ambulance chasers out there to make sure that the slightest mistake, up to the biggest, turns into justice or a lottery win. The finger pointers are just causing a lot of eye injuries.
Sadbuttrue on October 25 at 8:17 a.m.
They are taking very seriously their stated intention to employ military tactics against a hostile enemy combatant population. Their philosophical justification for these new military siege tactics was announced in some detail in the Spokesman Review a few months back. Its right out there in plain sight.
The endangered civilian population has few alternatives to protect the safety and lives of their families from these dangerously-violent, mentally-unhinged, lawless goons. I suggest the following emergency tactics until this De Facto state of martial law and siege is broken:
1). Warn your family and friends to stay away from this area. Do not vacation or visit Spokane and Northern Idaho. The police are just too dangerous. Word needs to get out systematically to travel industry professionals, especially travel writers that this is a dangerous “no go” military siege zone. There is nothing worth seeing in this area that could possibly justify submitting the lives of your family to a hail of bullets. Let Spokane area businesses know pointedly that you will not be frequenting their premises out of concern for your family’s safety. Shopping in Seattle is a small price to pay for your safety and the safety of your loved ones. Stay off the streets of Spokane, whatever the inconvenience.
2). Organize your friends and neighbors to petition the Federal Government to seize local law enforcement agencies and manage them as Federal receiverships, until the local police are fully-investigated and prosecuted to the full extent of the law for declaring and conducting this lethal war against the civilian population.
3). Consider forming a mass movement to withhold property taxes until local police agencies ruthlessly and systematically-strip themselves of the management that has overseen, enabled and supported the philosophical underpinnings of this catastrophe.
Make no mistake: War has been declared against a defenseless civilian population. Clearly, as per the manifesto that was published in the Spokesman Review, the police now have elevated force protection to their highest priority. Protecting themselves is their main reason for existence.
Be careful out there! You have very few rights as a designated enemy combatant under the Geneva Convention, and what pitiful rights you have are too little, too late.
BitofBacon on October 25 at 8:21 a.m.
Once again, Lewis and SadbutTrue, I have to thank both of you for starting my day off with a chuckle. I have to go now and make sure the black helicopters are up and running. Y’all have a nice day!
kneedrager on October 25 at 8:24 a.m.
Everyone blames the police around here for being out of control…maybe, just maybe, there’s just a high number of idiot civilians around here that do stupid stuff?
Just saying, look at both sides, and we all know how SR is biased against local governments. I’m doubting that we’re getting the full story anyway, so any conjecture is pure speculation based on “iffy” facts spoon fed to us by a media machine that is questionable at best.
thevoice on October 25 at 8:39 a.m.
I don’t know all the facts. But I thought those wonderful sparky things were supposed to be used to keep the police from having to shoot knife holding desparados 20 ft away.
D Statler on October 25 at 8:41 a.m.
The police shot a frail / weak man that was in a halfway house waiting for a liver transplant. I could have taken a knife away from him with one hand. He didn’t even have a weapon on him when he was shot.I know the family and his mother and family didn’t even get a notification yet.She learned of her sons murder in the news.Spokane’s police are buisy manipulating the facts as we speak. Notice the shooters name is being withheld. I can only hope the sheriffs department does the right thing and makes the real truth go public.This is NOT the end of this story!!
west on October 25 at 8:46 a.m.
Spokane has a very serious problem, and by Spokane I mean all the way to Liberty Lake. It is going downhill with crime,shootings, gangs,and general mayhem. Is it the economy that attracts these people? Spokane use to be the All American City in 70-80’s, but warnings from then Chief Mangdan(sp) went on deaf ears about the gangs coming into Spokane. Now they are entrenched in the poor neighborhoods, East and West Central, Lidgerwood etc. Cop shootings are on the rise..Spokane is a dangerous community and “Near Nature Near Perfect” is a false catchy logo that Chambert of Commerce trys to instill..put the rose colored glasses away and..wake up to reality.
Bob_Knows on October 25 at 8:49 a.m.
Since 9-11-01, more Americans have been gunned down on our streets by the blue shirt gun thugs than by Al-Queda, Islamic terrorists, and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. The real terrorists are here at home roaming our streets looking for another man to kill or destroy. The real terrorists kill men on American streets every day. Sometimes they kill men in Spokane, sometimes in Seattle, sometimes in Chicago. Every day they kill more and more American men without remorse or consequence. We the People have to recapture our cities and our nation. We the People have to recapture our corrupt local, state, and federal governments and stop the killing. We the People need to run the violent killers out of town.
Bob_Knows on October 25 at 8:57 a.m.
Was this hired killer hired by Ozzie Killovitch? Was the guy murdered by Killer Hirzel? Did Hirzel finally make “ACE” gun thug? Or, did Killovitch send another hired killer out to do the murder? …
Will there be any justice for the family of the dead man? Do pigs fly?
misjustice on October 25 at 9:05 a.m.
Wow! The cop allowed a “perp/suspect” to get within 20 feet? Scary! Very scary!
Condolences to the family and friends of the man that was the latest victim of homicide by cop; especially his mother or any other family member that, if true, got the news of their loved ones death via the “news”. (as suggested by undoolyprosecuted)
D Statler on October 25 at 9:21 a.m.
“POLICE BELIEVED” The police killed this man on somebody’s hear say. I miss the old days when they would use their tasers on everything from cows to outlaws. By killing them dead.They stop the victims from giving their testimony.As I said before.This victim was weak and frail.He would have easily been subdued.
liarsinnews on October 25 at 9:42 a.m.
I`ll give every one a fact. Source is “Sperlings”, a company that is used by many cities, and state governments to obtain facts measured by reported crimes to the FBI, and other law enforcement agencies through out the country. Having said that, Spokane is above the national average in every major crime, even lesser stuff in every category of crime in the United States. Spokane has had this distinction for at least two decades. I testified before the Spokane city council a number of years ago and presented the sitting city council at the time, with documents showing factual numbers. I also passed out documents, and used as a comparison, Garland, Texas, with a population, close to that of Spokane`s.(Garland at the time, 200,000) When I was offering my testimony, half of the city council members were whispering with one another and could have cared less as to what I had to say.
lewis8457 on October 25 at 9:49 a.m.
Bit-o-chicken I am saddened you get a chuckle from the deaths of many innocents could you be Officer Torok?
The saddest thing I have learned through these blogs (SR&KXLY). The total distain many police have for the people they are paid to protect. And when something happens they want to throw the dangerous job thing out and the anyone who complains is a criminal card. But the fact is most of us hard working law obeying folks that see if a disabled janitor or a preacher can be killed we can too.
And about the complainers must be criminals just shows the piglets believe we are ALL criminals, just ask Torok he will tell you.
and to the families of the fallen, my heart goes out to you. But if you believe you will see justice here save yourself the trouble and just get the heck out of Spokane.
lewis8457 on October 25 at 9:55 a.m.
sadbuttrue you hit it, I have been sending that message for months now.
If you value life stay away from Spokane. Many of us are stuck here but if you have the means to get out or stay out, do it. Your loved ones will thank you.
liarsinnews on October 25 at 10:02 a.m.
I must add a ADDENDUM:
Regarding my testimony to the city council, I had communicated with Sperling during the same time frame, about the numbers that Spokane had furnished to reporting agencies. It appeared that Spokane failed to report the correct number of homicides. The year I cited was Spokane`s record setting number of murders and it looked as though the Lilac City subtracted several to show a lesser number even though the city was still way above the national average that year.
Peaches624 on October 25 at 10:09 a.m.
Would you rather live in Mexico? Where the gangs are winning?? You like the thugs, murderers, wife beaters etc. etc.?
IF you read the paper or listen to the news you know the Police are out there with a target on their back trying to protect us all. The idiots gather to criticize … again before they really know anything. I want the Police to win !!! RAH RAH RAH for our Police !!!
eagleproducer on October 25 at 10:19 a.m.
kneedragger: You should change your screen name to knuckle dragger.
We aren’t “civilians.” We are citizens who pay your way in the world. We’re sick of being killed by you and treated like children who need your supervision when we aren’t being killed by you. We are sick of you conducting your own investigations into your crimes that never result in justice but more cops sitting around getting paid for doing nothing while they get their lies straight. Is that so hard to understand?
liarsinnews on October 25 at 10:20 a.m.
Peaches624: Its a asinine comment. For gosh sakes lets not compare other countries. Common sense would dictate we stick to apples to apples and look at other cities in the good old US of A where crime is half of what the city of Spokane is.
mikeln on October 25 at 10:21 a.m.
Once you become involved with law enforcement you have no rights, whether you’re involved with a crime or not. It is best that you do what they say and hope you are not accidently shot or beat to death. The police are taught to shoot to kill, to shoot at the body mass, not a leg or arm. This is good for them, bad for you. Once again, you must comply with them because when they confront you, you are guilty untill a court of law finds you innocent.
Ron_the_Cop on October 25 at 10:28 a.m.
OK I won’t make any rush judgments yet. I do know this don’t bring a knife to a gunfight. In general tactically if a person is charging you with a knife from less than 15 to 20 feet they can close the gap and stab you before you can draw and shoot. We don’t know the facts yet what this person was doing, saying et al.
BTW to Sheriff Knezovich’s credit since the Creach shooting at least the issue interviewing the involved officer has been resolved at least for SO deputies.
Time will tell on this one too whether it appears justified or an over reaction and perhaps less than lethal methods could have been employed - shotgun bean bag, Taser or whatever.
bdr on October 25 at 10:29 a.m.
It is amazing everyone shot so far has had some disease.
Diabetes,alcoholism,drug addiction, mental illness.
HUMMMMMM maybe heath care thing might be worth it.
I hate the word “believed” to have something sharp.
“”I want the cops to “know” before you unload on him.”“
DeCaYeD on October 25 at 10:39 a.m.
Have weapon, confront police…Get shot and killed. Don’t do that you dumb asses! I hope the area police start taking out more of the criminals in the city so a clear mesage can be sent.
zelda on October 25 at 10:41 a.m.
Dick Adams — Thank you for the info on crime and comparables. Spokane has always suffered from an excess of Our Fair City syndrome. Now, in the Great Recession, there’s an even more pronounced attitude of “Avert your eyes; let’s not talk about what we just saw.” When it comes to analyzing the statistics and drawing some valid conclusions, what we get instead are Progress Report luncheons where bankers and economists predict that prosperity is just around the corner. We need more articles that pull it all together with objective insights and unstinting conclusions. The only one who seems to be going where angels fear to tread is Shawn Vestal and I’m glad the S-R has allowed him to venture into territory that’s civically uncomfortable.
Spokane is poor, has a growing crime problem, low-wage jobs and an unemployment rate far higher than anyone is willing to speak about publically.
I’m not saying that every officer-involved shooting is justified, far from it, but just driving around the Valley in broad daylight gives me the shivers, so I can only imagine what comes out at night.
Ron_the_Cop on October 25 at 10:48 a.m.
BDR,
Yes, unfortunately, many who encounter the police may have mental issues. The question is are they adequately trained and equipped to deal with this. Should we or can we expect more based on LE’s shrinking resources.
Look we defunded a lot of mental health resources and unfortunately LE has had to suck up the gap. I would venture to guess a significant percentage of the local jail population is comprised of people with mental issues that haven’t been identified or appropriately dealt with. LE is taking a bum rap for servicing this population when they in fact don’t have the resources to deal with it. Think homeless and our usual response re vagrancy and expect the police to deal with it.
Just saying.
BitofBacon on October 25 at 11:09 a.m.
Lewis, I’m glad you’re telling your friends to stay away from Spokane. That means there is more of Spokane that my friends can enjoy. Until they start setting checkpoints to travel from one side of town to the other I wouldn’t worry too much about the so-called “police state” that Sad keeps talking about. And Lewis, I wasn’t chuckling about another guy getting killed, I was chuckling about you blowing another gasket.-Louis
mikeln on October 25 at 11:12 a.m.
Ron is right, as long as we don’t or won’t deal with the underlying social problems more of this will keep happening, and we are all to blame. We need the resources spent on problems at home, not used to increase the wealthy’s bank accounts. We are told we are a free society yet by the time most of us get to the tenth grade we start to realize we are nothing more then comodities to be used up. We need to demand that more and more be spent on education instead of less and less. Unfourntunatly for us our elected officials know that a well educated society would never stand for the crap they keep shoveling on us.
John_Fever_Richmond on October 25 at 11:26 a.m.
Let me start with my sincerest condolences to the family of this most recent victim to lose his life to “one of Spokane’s finest”. How sad that the family has to learn of their loved one’s death via news media. Evidently they, (SPD, The Powers That Be, Hostile Enemy Combatants, Occupying Forces, or whatever THEY want US to call them), have been learning from their previous killings and are just too busy framing this most recent VICTIM and making sure ALL of their fabricated stories are air-tight prior to informing the surviving relatives of their latest VICTIM.
By 2011 they will be experts at this “Kill innocents/Quell the public” protocol. All I can say is I feel sorry for them if they EVER come a kickin’ in my door with a search warrant, as Mr. Mossberg answers!!!
Sadbuttrue on October 25 at 11:35 a.m.
Ron the Cop,
From my perspective, the police do not hesitate to rush in and try to solve problems they are not equipped to handle. On many occasions, I have witnessed cops testifying about their opinion of the mental diagnosis of someone they came in contact with, their treatment recommendations and so on. Their opinions, invariably at sharp odds with mental health professionals, are given great weight by the courts.
The prison/law enforcement/industrial complex always lobbies for MORE power, not LESS. They lobby for ever greater areas of life to be in control of, not less. The Police are the primary mental treatment providers because they convinced the rest of society that they are capable of handling it. They demonstrably are incompetent at handling that task.
Additionally, the law requires law enforcement be specifically trained to deal with persons with mental issues, or to not deal with them at all. You may of course, at the peril of the citizen’s of Spokane’s budgetary peril, feel free to ignore the numerous decisions that have formulated that law. Taking the police version of this killing at face value, killing a person with obvious mental disabilities at such a range armed the way they say he was armed indicates - taking their statements at face value - that their conduct fell well below the minimum requirements of the law.
I like it when the leg-thumpers for the cops accuse their detractors of “Black Helicopter” delusions. I have convinced most of my family and friends not to visit here. And most importantly, just to show what one person can do, I have had a great deal of effect on some very influential travel writers and journalists who now are very effective at warning people away from this area. I intend to vigorously continue that tactic as long as the local police feel justified in their appalling spree of murder and mayhem.
Carry on.
SLEO on October 25 at 11:46 a.m.
Two months ago today Deputy Brian Hirzel shot and killed my dad, Wayne Scott Creach. A husband, father, grandfather, great grandfather, son, brother, pastor, friend and upstanding member of the Spokane Valley community.
My heart goes out to this family and I pray that the citizens of Spokane will continue their protest in these many officer involved shootings and the investigative cover-ups that come after them.
DeCaYeD on October 25 at 11:57 a.m.
Wow, can’t wait to read a story about cop bashers screaming for help and the cops decide not to respond. Problems exist in every city that has LE and Spokane one of them. Not all of Spokane area LE are bad and not everything is a damn conspiracy. Simple fact: When approached by LE comply with verbal commands and your stupid ass will not get shot! The majority of the posts I have read involve way to many people watching way to much Jesse Ventura.
Sadbuttrue on October 25 at 12:11 p.m.
SLEO,
Based on what I have written above and the ignorant and vicious responses of the law enforcement community, I would urge you to seriously consider involving yourself in the effort to Boycott Spokane. I think that it would give you a purpose and meaning given the senseless murder of your dad by that cretinous goon. For God’s sake, knowing what we all know about the local police, how can we remain silent and thereby in good conscience allow some other innocent to walk unwittingly into this cesspool of unrestrained police fascism and human rights violations?
misjustice on October 25 at 12:16 p.m.
@ Ron; again, you make a valid point. Which I’ll draw upon to make mine. I believe this latest homicide points directly to training and leadership within the organization (in this case the Spokane Sheriff’s department) or the lack thereof.
What training/leadership is routinely emphasised regarding police interaction with those citizens that may have mental or other physical illnesses?
Ozzie, what say you?
BitofBacon on October 25 at 12:21 p.m.
Boycott Spokane or shorten it up and just say BS. I like the idea. You don’t need anyone else there anyway.
Bob_Knows on October 25 at 12:30 p.m.
PEACHES624, killing preachers and old men does not relate to your comment about “Mexico where gangs are winning.” Here in Spokane the killer gang is the blue shirt gun thugs who work for the corrupt politicians and keep murdering old men, preachers, and men with mental problems. What is clear in Spokane is that the PEOPLE are not winning. The PEOPLE of Spokane keep getting murdered on our streets by the blue shirt gang.
Bob_Knows on October 25 at 12:33 p.m.
The election doesn’t even help. Killovitch is running unopposed. The County Persecutor candidates are all involved in defending the murderers of Otto Zehm. The County Council candidates refuse even to discuss rolling back support for violent killers on our streets. We the PEOPLE have to recapture our city, and demanding elimination of the bloated budgets for violent killer gangs is the place to start.
Bob_Knows on October 25 at 12:39 p.m.
SLEO, you have my deepest sympathy for the murder of your father by the hired killer gang that works for Ozzie Killovitch. A fair trial would hang them at dawn, but we the people never get justice, we just get more and more police state tyranny. There is no justice under tyranny. Your father died an untimely death, cut down by hired murderers. Good men of Spokane will never forget or condone murder.
CMrocks on October 25 at 12:53 p.m.
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty…. And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural (fertilizer).
CMrocks on October 25 at 12:55 p.m.
Those are Thomas Jefferson quotes
bdr on October 25 at 1:51 p.m.
Dead guys name is Quentin Dodd 50
Fairly quiet police record from 1994 to late 2008…. 29 lines of court appearances and one apparent protection order.
Krem has his photo.
29 lines (this guys a virtual virgin to cop/court work)
CHS criminal history section readers know today’s kids are way worse……..than this guy.
most repeat offenders have 400-800 lines 20-40 pages of CHS.
My computer would blow is I tried to download Eddy Ray Halls convictions.
nslopeofw on October 25 at 2:32 p.m.
I’m sure social problems exist, and are a problem, but don’t get away from the real problem. The cops here think nothing of “shoot first, ask questions later” (dead don’t answer). Then, they don’t actually investigate the killers because they are friends with them, and this would also hold them accountable for their actions. If ALL cop related shootings were investigated by the FBI, with citizen oversight ( this person voted in by citizens, and not appointed by the cronie gang), the “kill first” crowd would slowly disappear (prison), and the good cops that remain to slowly regain their good reputation.
The gestapo is alive and well in Spokane (and valley), WA
monkeyman on October 25 at 2:52 p.m.
Did Hirzel get the hat-trick?
bdr on October 25 at 3:00 p.m.
MABEY ALLAN OR SLEO
could ask Ozzie for statistical data “shootings by year”
then ask for training data that involves “sheriff gun training”
compare the dates of the NEW style computer training to the actual last few months of actual shootings.’
this might be newsworthy: police are computer trained, live people are not involved. computer characters come back to life training after training! real people don’t.
could this explain why ((police have become depraved-indifference murderers))?
They found this to be true with youngsters and the
game grand theft auto.
zelda on October 25 at 3:16 p.m.
Here’s the link to the KREM info.
http://www.krem.com/news/local/Family-confirms-identity-of-man-shot-killed-by-Spokane-Co-Sheriffs-deptuy-105708223.html
Every incident unearths more layers of social disfunction. This even made the Seattle Times. As if they needed additional evidence of eastside dystopia.
With little information so far, there are a lot of questions: Is this going to be another homicide on a dark, deserted street with no witnesses? What kind of group home was Quentin Dodd living in? Why was he agitated? Not taking medications as needed or did the cops misinterpret his behaviors? (Yeah, I know he had a knife, but rock, paper, scissors, GUN? Were they afraid the guy was an above-the-ground mumblety-peg ace?)
Ron_the_cop raises good points about how and if LE are being adequately trained to deal with mental illness when they encounter it (if that’s what was going on here).
Ron_the_Cop on October 25 at 3:32 p.m.
BTW the SO I think goes to the private/commerical range over in Post Falls for firearms qualification. I don’t know what the training interval is. Ours was every month until they cut back for budget reasons to bimonthly. I’m told the rangemaster over there is a state of the art guy re firearms training.
SPD I’m told has a run down range operation that is nothing to brag about.
Bob_Knows on October 25 at 3:40 p.m.
I’m so glad the gun thugs get regular training on a gun range. It makes them so much more effective murdering the people.
zelda on October 25 at 3:43 p.m.
KHQ is reporting that the autopsy is underway. http://www.khq.com/Global/story.asp?S=13383296
Also in the KHQ report, it says that when officers arrived they found a man in the street with a “sharp object.” It doesn’t say specifically that he had a knife. Then there was an “altercation” with the officer and the officer shot Dodd.
zelda on October 25 at 3:58 p.m.
bdr — All this time I’ve been playing Bejweled when I should have been learning Grand Theft Auto. That’s a serious skill deficit for someone who lives in Spokane Valley nowadays.
I’d like our police to spend more time doing Farmville and less time on real-life first-person shooter games.
misjustice on October 25 at 4:01 p.m.
Well an altercation can cover everything from an exchange of words to a physical exchange; and everything in between.
Was the 20’ distance lessened during the “altercation”? The victim seemed a little too far away to pose much of a threat with a “sharp object”…
Sadbuttrue on October 25 at 4:12 p.m.
The Olympia Police Department’s protocol discourages officers from using deadly force toward mentally ill individuals. That is a nearby city. And the Memphis protocol, which has become the nationwide standard, gives officers specialized training in deescalating confrontations with mentally ill people.
The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has repeatedly recognized the Memphis protocol as the state of the art approach for the police in dealing with the mentally ill in crisis. The 9th Circuit is clearly four-square opposed to the use of Deadly Force against the mentally ill, except in exceptionally-rare occasions. The City of Spokane Valley in this latest incident, by refusing to train and discipline their officer in the minimal standards of civility and decency, has placed itself and its citizens in a situation of almost unlimited liability.
The local cops’ woefully-ignorant viewpoint, as well articulated in these blogs, is that of unfettered, goose-stepping and unrestrained fascist goons. The often cited urban legend of “take out a knife in front of the police and get shot” is the governing law of nowhere in the United States, and falls well below the standards that are harshly enforced under our constitution. Like it or not, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals makes the rules for Spokane, and this latest incident falls well below their standards.
Bob_Knows on October 25 at 4:13 p.m.
Typical blue gun thug tactics. Show up. Attack to cause an “altercation” And then kill the guy. If the blue gun thugs had just gone home everyone would be alive and well today.
zelda on October 25 at 4:18 p.m.
Obsidian knife. That’s a new one on me. I know what obsidian is, but didn’t realize that there are people out there still making Clovis points for fun and profit.
Yeah, 20 feet seems like quite a distance unless the dead man was an expert javelin thrower.
There is a witness to this, who is (for better or worse) another cop. I’d like to know what the protocol is for dealing with a person who has a knife. Is it, “Drop the weapon. Drop the weapon” and then BANG?
Isn’t this a lot like what happened to the wooder carver in Seattle who was shot and killed by the police?
misjustice on October 25 at 4:24 p.m.
Could be, Zelda. I heard that cop lost his job.
kneedrager on October 25 at 4:30 p.m.
@spoketucky….I’m a civilian, keep assuming everything and quit attacking, your screen name is fitting. ;)
BTW, 20 feet isn’t all that far away, and again, we don’t know all the specifics, everyone is speculating what happened. And again, I stand by my statements about what we get told by the local media.
But I do agree, there does seem to be a LOT of officer involved shootings in this county.
I wonder how many officers have fired their weapons around here compared to the number of criminals firing weapons? Me thinks it may be lopsided.
RValenzCatCityPD8702 on October 25 at 4:36 p.m.
Ok, so it looks like the greater Spokane area LE Haters club is back in session. I’ll try to make this brief, as I know it’s sure to ruffle a few feathers. As most you know, by way of stats, cop shows and other forms of entertainment, domestic violence calls are the most dangerous calls “we” answer on a daily basis. When you can’t get along w/ your spouse, call the cops. Can’t handle your kid, call the cops. Found your significant other cheating, call the cops. Never mind the mindset of the person we need to contact, which is usually depressed, intoxicated, stoned or just doesn’t have the will to live or guts to take themselves out. Call the cops. They’ll do the job and be eating donuts in a week. Just shows how much you all know.
We and yes I’m speaking from experience never want to have to deal with your crap, especially when it comes to deadly force. When a “deranged, delusional, emotionally upset, suicidal, person, suspect or pastor” does all the wrong things and makes those indicative furtive movements what do you expect from us. Each of goes to work knowing what could happen but praying we never have walk through that door.
As Ron the cop and others can attest, many things go through your mind in a split second. For me, it was the thought that this domestic violence suspect was going to stop me from seeing my young son’s again and they’d grow up wondering why I hesitated as they stand at my grave. NOT GONNA HAPPEN! Imagine my surprise to find this person was just heartbroken that his wife had stepped out and didn’t want to live anymore. Now I’ve got his baggage to deal with for the rest of my life. Yeah, thanks for nothing. How would the rest of you in the peanut gallery have handled it? A lot better than me I’m sure. Oh BTW, Hirzel was there to help me through it and has always been a friend and professional.
And my last point of interest, edged weapons are anything with an “edge”. As such they are treated with the 21’ rule as Ron has described. And again for those of you who’ve never had to deal with these incidents, go ahead and armchair quarterback all you want but leave the work to those who know what they’re doing. FYI, the 21’ rule was implemented in Washington State and demonstrated as the model training guide, even to us So. Cal cops. Let it rain. : )
west on October 25 at 4:48 p.m.
So Creech’s hearing is 12 months from now, this guy maybe 2 years from now…wow. SpookyHollow is alive..glad I moved years ago..
misjustice on October 25 at 4:56 p.m.
RValenz; what a telling post.
chouligirl on October 25 at 5:16 p.m.
oneanddone…how dare you say that “From what I’ve seen were better off without the vast majority of those dispatched by the police”. Maybe if it was someone close to you you would have a different attitude. How callous, like these people are less worthwhile than the likes of you. Shame on you. Sounds like you’re in LE and can’t be bothered by the little people…
chouligirl on October 25 at 5:22 p.m.
this needs to go way above the local investigations. someone needs to contact the highest level to investigate the shenanigans the cops are getting away with in Spokanistan. There is NO reason for the cops to be shooting people at their will. Even if someone doesn’t obey, it isn’t a reason to shoot to kill. WTF. Who is in charge at the police department?? Are there no huge red flags??
Sadbuttrue on October 25 at 5:26 p.m.
RVALENZCATCITY,
Unfortunately, your “21 foot” rule has been resoundingly rejected by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, particularly when a police officer erroneously chooses to employ even “less-than-lethal” force against an armed mentally-ill person. The following is a direct quote of the recent, current law applied against an unfortunate cop who stood his ground and drew an imaginary line at 21 feet, against a mentally ill person armed with a crossbow. When the mentally-ill plaintiff crossed that line, the Defendant/Cop shot him with a beanbag, a level of force termed by the Court to be “Objectively Unreasonable”:
“The problems posed by, and thus the tactics to be employed against, an emotionally distraught individual who is creating a disturbance or resisting arrest are ordinarily different from those involved in law enforcement efforts to subdue an armed and dangerous criminal who has recently committed a serious offense. In the former instance, increasing the use of force may, in some circumstances at least, exacerbate the situation; in the latter, a heightened use of less-than-lethal force will usually be helpful in bringing a dangerous situation to a swift end. In the case of mentally unbalanced persons, the use of officers and others trained in the art of counseling is ordinarily advisable, where feasible, and may provide the best means of ending a crisis. …
…. Even when an emotionally disturbed individual is “acting out” and inviting officers to use deadly force to subdue him, the governmental interest in using such force is diminished by the fact that the officers are confronted, not with a person who has committed a serious crime against others, but with a mentally ill individual. We do not adopt a per se rule establishing two different classifications of suspects: mentally disabled persons and serious criminals. Instead, we emphasize that where it is or should be apparent to the officers that the individual involved is emotionally disturbed, that is a factor that must be considered in determining, under Graham, the reasonableness of the force employed.”
It bears repetition for emphasis here: the use of even a shotgun-fired “less-than-lethal” beanbag to enforce the “21 foot rule,” as applied against a knife-wielding mentally-ill person, is blatantly unconstitutional. That a police defender ignorantly believes, in this day and age that such thinking is acceptable police training and technique is just abominable.
Additionally, a Seattle Police Officer was recently fired after he shot and killed a mentally-ill woodcarver, who refused the officer’s command to drop his carving knife. Not only was the Officer fired (as per the above decision) but the Seattle Police Department announced it was making sweeping managerial changes in the aftermath of the shooting and attendant public outcry. Sorry RValenz, but you are absolutely incorrect on the law.
This Spokane case is far worse than either of the above cases. For one thing, the poor citizen shot and killed here was “armed” with an obsidian knife, which is more of an artistic artifact than anything else. Additionally, we have here the Spokane police mafia defensively circling the wagons as the public outrage builds. Both of these facts are far below the legal standard enunciated by the governing Court of Appeals, and by the wise changes made by the Seattle Police Department in the aftermath of a similar incident.
Spokane is far, far behind the times.
BitofBacon on October 25 at 5:29 p.m.
Hey Sad, here’s a little bit of what I call the Bit of Bacon protocol- don’t bring a knife to a gun fight, don’t point a firearm at a cop and do what they tell you during a confrontation. There would probably be a lot less shootings if folks would remember these simple rules.
SLEO on October 25 at 5:38 p.m.
RValenzCatCityPD8702 - Yes, very telling.
“Pastor” Scott Creach was neither deranged, delusional, emotionally upset or suicidal. But I guess as long as you can convince yourself that most citizens are, that gives you the right to pull the trigger without due consideration.
lewis8457 on October 25 at 5:41 p.m.
they had Shonto Pete on trial in less then 3 weeks after Gay Olsen shot him in the head, but Gay didn’t go to trial for 2 years. and after gays trial the cops were ready to pounce on Pete even though he had been proven innocent in a court of law. Not that, that matters to a cop.
the only witness is a cop and he gave a statement right away. but the shooter gets three days to meet up with him and get the story straight.
Bits-o-chicken good to know killing at will does not make you chuckle maybe you are human after all. and i am not blowing my stack i am simply waiting for a judge to put a noose around Karl Thompson’s neck and kick the chair away. Until then i will be right here when you need to throw crap at someone.
Sadbuttrue on October 25 at 5:46 p.m.
Your “protocols” and “rules” have a certain primitive emotional appeal to those willfully and proudly ignorant of the law and intellectually-incapable of understanding it, as you have demonstrated time and time again.
However, they clearly are not the law of the land.
cpd805 on October 25 at 5:51 p.m.
Sad, please post the name of the case you just cited. I want to read it. Thx.
lewis8457 on October 25 at 5:52 p.m.
bits-o chicken go over to KREM2 website they have their regular followers you would like them they are all for death by cop and police state. Just shows not all of us want to be free.
cpd805 on October 25 at 6:11 p.m.
Is it Deorle v. Rutherford?
Sadbuttrue on October 25 at 6:15 p.m.
Yes
Sadbuttrue on October 25 at 6:21 p.m.
CPD,
Be cautious though, because the definition of “Deadly Force” that was affirmed in Deorle was overruled by the same Court a couple of years later. The new definition of Deadly force rejects the old definition of force “likely to cause death.” Unfortunately for the police, Deadly Force is now merely force likely to “cause great bodily injury.”
Additionally, Rutherford’s enforcement of the police-proscribed “21 foot rule” is not directly addressed in the case itself, except in passing. Rutherford made that unwise declaration of the law in his deposition, which can be read only in the case file.
Enjoy.
cpd805 on October 25 at 6:26 p.m.
Perhaps you should actually read the case. In Deorle, the guy who was shot with the beanbag was UNARMED at the time. He had been previously armed with a hatchet (not a crossbow as you said). Deorle dropped the hatchet as soon as officers told him to. Deorle continued to walk toward the officers at a “steady gait” but was unarmed at the time of the beanbag deployment. This case in NO WAY ruled that the 21 foot rule was somehow unconstitutional. It ruled this particular use of force as unjustified because the guy was UNARMED at the time they shot him with the bean bag round. This is the opening statement in the published case:
“Police Officer Greg Rutherford fired a “less lethal” lead-filled “beanbag round” into the face of Richard Leo Deorle, an emotionally disturbed resident of Butte County, California, who was walking at a “steady gait” in his direction. He did so although Deorle was unarmed, had not attacked or even touched anyone, had generally obeyed the instructions given him by various police officers, and had not committed any serious offense.”
http://www.law.com/regionals/ca/opinions/nov/9917188.shtml
Were you hoping everyone would take you at your word regarding the 9th Circuit Case and not actually go look it up?
lewis8457 on October 25 at 6:29 p.m.
bits Otto did not have a weapon but he is dead at hands of many police any advice for him?
Sadbuttrue on October 25 at 6:52 p.m.
Actually, YOU are the one who has misread the case! He was, at various times, armed with a crossbow, at least one hatchet, a board with nails in it, and finally approached Rutherford with a can of lighter fluid. While I agree with the majority in its conclusion, their characterization of Deorle being “unarmed” at the time he was shot with the beanbag is disingenuous, at best. For you to argue that he was not armed with a crossbow, is just incredible! Additionally, the majority diminished the crossbow by terming it a “plastic” crossbow, which was amply refuted by Deorle’s own testimony. If anything, the dissent in that case has a more accurate rendition of the danger posed by Deorle than the majority did. It helps nobody’s case by diminishing the level of danger posed to Rutherford.
chouligirl on October 25 at 6:58 p.m.
sadbuttrue, you’re 8:17am post was right on target.
the only thing that can make this change is the almighty $$$.
thx…
Sadbuttrue on October 25 at 7:02 p.m.
Here is the dissent’s view of the undisputed facts regarding whether Mr. Deorle was armed or not. I will leave it to the reader to decide what, if any weapons this mentally unstable person used during this rampage, not to say the least he had previously been convicted of and was on probation by assaulting Mrs. Deorle:
“Deorle was observed holding a two-by-six board with nails protruding from the end of it. According to Mrs. Deorle’ s taped-recorded statement on the day in question, Deorle “was so angry, that he just started lifting up the porch, you know the board, it has a railing and he lifted up the railing and he was like swinging it” like a baseball bat. At her deposition held three years later, Mrs. Deorle stated that he was “screaming” but not swinging the board around. Either way, the undisputed fact is that Deorle, while screaming and on a rampage, was in possession of a board with protruding nails, and that he finally dropped it when Mahon took his pistol out of his holster.
Mahon was able to get Deorle’ s wife and children safely into his police car. Mrs. Deorle told Mahon that Deorle was depressed, that he had been drinking, that he was in a rage caused by his medication, that he previously had been arrested for assaulting her in a domestic incident, and that he had been on probation.
It is undisputed that after dropping the board, Deorle picked up two hatchets and a crossbow. According to Mrs. Deorle, the crossbow was of the type used for recreational target shooting, not hunting, and that “it does look serious.” In her tape-recorded interview, she recalled that when the police on the scene asked her whether her husband had any weapons, she told them, “No, except he has a crossbow.”
Mr. Cda, is it still your possession that Mr. Deorle never had a crossbow?
bszottlinger on October 25 at 7:35 p.m.
cpd/sad:
The two of you might want to brief Brooks v. City of Seattle (08-355526).
The Ninth Circus will rehear it en banc.
D Statler on October 25 at 7:37 p.m.
Dear SLEO, My heartfelt sympathy goes out to your family from ours. I am sorry that your father was the victim of excessive force as Mr. Dodd was. I understand the officers fear of being shot by your father. He tried to hit him with a night stick and was affraid your father was affraid enough for his life he was going to shoot first.Unfortunately,the officer was justified to shoot when your dad didn’t place his gun on the ground.As sad as it may seem.This is the law in our state.I hope that you can understand that the officer could have shot your father at first sight with the gun and got away with it.Most of the good cops would have identified themslves and the situation would have naturally defussed. Why the situation escalated is beyond me.
In the Dodd shooting.The police knew exactly what they were dealing with and once again,they used deadly force when it was not warranted.Like your fathers case,the facts released up front paint a grim picture of Mr. Dodd as they tried to with your great father.There is no comparing your dad with a mentally ill person awaiting an organ transplant.The police department is trying it’s best to cover their own.I asked where the FEDS were before and am still hoping for intervention.Once again,I am sorry for your loss and the losses suffered by other families at the hands of Spokane’s law enforcements bad decisions. Please remember,there are some very good people working in the Police departments in Spokane.Unfortuately,there are some very poorly trained Police as well. God Bless Friend :^)
chouligirl on October 25 at 7:45 p.m.
DeCaYeD (11:57 am post), you have an odd way of thinking…I have no intentions of giving up my freedoms for the likes of LE giving me commands. I have no intentions of commiting any crime or breaking laws and if I were on my own property, I would be asking L E to leave.
I will not get on the ground to satisfy the power trip of a cop. I can speak just fine standing up. I have no weapons. Not that that would matter. I’m sure the assumption is that all us “civilians” have weapons. Without a doubt you are LE. You think of the citizens as “civilians”. That is wrong…
RValenzCatCityPD8702 (4:36pm), don’t give me the whole sad our lives are at risk every day story…then don’t be a cop. many occupations involve risk. quit thinking you’re so special. why not try protecting the citizen first. do you guys even get the training blurb on “protect & serve” anymore??
is there a reason why lesser forms of restraint aren’t in play? it seems shoot to kill and questions later aren’t necessary.
de3 on October 25 at 8:33 p.m.
Some one in the comments wondered if 4 shootings in 8 weeks might be normal.
Spokane County has 7% of Washington’s population. Some one said on another comment thread there were 14 police involved shootings in the state in the previous couple of months (I don’t know if that is true or not but it sounds about right from the news reports I’ve seen).
4 out of 14 police involved shootings is about 29% of ‘em here in Spokanistan. With just 7% of the population. Hmmmm…..
Are the numbers right? I dunno.
Who changed to cause this sudden rise: the police or the citizens?
Is this a symptom of something going on in Spokane that we just don’t talk about, as Zelda suggests?
eagle on October 25 at 8:38 p.m.
Wow looking at some of LE’s opinions I guess it won’t be long before we are reading about more LE shootings by the above listed commentators. I wonder how their post will look during their trial and go to prove prior intent. The very idea that of saying at least the kids get to see their Dad, that’s not even the issue, the issue is Police escalation, and Paranoia, what about all the families who are coping with a loss of loved one or finances and health? Do they not figure into your logic? Buster you should get a different job.
By the way this case differs from the Creach shooting in that Creach was on his own property responding to a tresspasser. LE enforcement aside the right of the property owner will always prevail in this type of situation as has been proven over and over in court. LE was just as much a guilty tresspasser as every other individual who pulls into a closed parking lot. Thats why landowners have the right to tow cars and business owners have the right to tell LE that they can’t use their lots for ticket writing since it’s bad for business.
In neither case was the officer justified in his shooting, nor was Deputy Jay McNall justified in the similiar knife wielding shooting from 30 feet away at Adams and Alki another police shooting that was never prosecuted about 10 years ago. Incidentally there were seven eye witnesses to that shooting one of which was the mans’ brother who is the owner of a local Lawn care business in the valley and is still seeking justice. That case was covered up as well and especially so when the family attorney committed suicide suddenly.
I am definitely for LE but when officers cross the line I am for enforcement of the law, fairly as I’m sure that most of this community is as well.
It is our expectation that elected officials stand up and behave lke the men they claim to be and if they won’t then don’t whine when the community makes a major change in their life style. Mr Tucker needs to do the right thing for his own good and the good of this community and enforce the law.
JayNW on October 25 at 8:45 p.m.
you can’t compare this to any other police shooting- it is a totally separate event, and a totally different officer. The problem is that the community is not educated on taser use, or really any other use of force. Educate yourself people. And someone with a lengthy criminal history, who goes after a cop w/ a deadly instrument, is putting themselves in a bad situation no matter what town you are in.
problem is that the anti cop/cop haters around here will not use common sense, or educate themselves0- they just use their hate and emotion to make judgments w.out having the facts.
eagle on October 25 at 8:51 p.m.
One last thing remember there is no statute on murder,
I’m not seeing a lot of cop haters out there just people who are fed up with cops killing people.
It’s about time to take the guns away from LE and order these men to stand down until they can be adequatly trained in safe firearm use.
maria on October 25 at 8:59 p.m.
Kicked out of his faith-bases halfway house. How Christian.
maria on October 25 at 9:04 p.m.
Poor guy was a diabetic, too. Maybe his sugars were off. Where is humanity? In such a loving Catholic town like Spokane why could no one help him? Shame on you. Shame on us.
Icarus on October 25 at 9:54 p.m.
You know if this hadn’t been yet another shooting I could blow it off as a oh man the cop thought he was in danger and made a bad choice… However there was other options. the guy was 20 ft away why not use the tazer? Are the cops here just stupid ? Or just trigger happy…
I do know one thing If I have the feeling people are gonna start fighting back if something isn’t done.
Peaches624 on October 25 at 10:03 p.m.
DICK ADAMS, THOUGHT IF i COULD MAKE YOU VISUALIZE A PICTURE LIKE THE CRIME IN MEXICO … YOU JUST MIGHT GET IT. The SPD, LEO’s and the WSP get the job done. We have a ton of crime here in Spokane, just because you are not aware of it …the rest of us are very thankful for the protection they provide ! But … when the idiots gather … guess what? There you are in all your glory ! UGH !
lewis8457 on October 25 at 10:13 p.m.
icarus you are right if their job wasn’t dangerous before it sure the hell is now.
cpd805 on October 25 at 10:14 p.m.
Sad…..Don’t try to twist this case to mean something it does not. The whole point of your original post on this case was to try to sell the fallacy that the 9th Circuit “resoundingly rejected the 21 foot rule”. That is not the case. The court rejected this particular use of force under these particular circumstances.
Whether or not the guy was ONCE armed with any weapon is not relevant here because he was in fact NOT armed with ANY weapon at the time of the use of force, and had been generally compliant with verbal commands.
You stated above: the ““21 foot” rule has been resoundingly rejected by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, particularly when a police officer erroneously chooses to employ even “less-than-lethal” force against an armed mentally-ill person.”
That is not true. First, the “21 foot” rule is not a really rule at all. It is just a guideline that says on average, a knife-weilding suspect is able to cover 21 feet of ground in the time it takes the average officer to draw and fire his weapon. There is no rule that gives an officer “carte-blanche” to shoot anyone armed with a knife as long as they are within 21 feet. The use of force still has to be reasonable under the totality of the circumstances. Second, the courts decision is based on the fact that the guy here was UNARMED (their words)….you said above “an armed mentally-ill person”. The decision by the court is based, in part, on Deorle being “unarmed”. Lastly, you put a lot of emphasis on the dissent’s view of the guy being armed….even the dissent does not indicate Deorle was armed at the time of the use of force.
Each use of force is judged alone, based on its individual circumstances. This case in no way indicates that the 21-foot guideline is in anyway unconstitutional or rejected by any court whatsoever. Not sure where you get that.
DeCaYeD on October 25 at 11:35 p.m.
(Chouligirl) I’m sure you would have a change of heart if an officer gave you a command and had a gun pointed at your head. Your property or not. But hey be a “Free Spirit” :)
Spokanedude on October 25 at 11:52 p.m.
I’m no longer in Spokane, but I’m always baffled at the news there. I’ll leave you folks still there in Spokane with a quote. Take back your city.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Sadbuttrue on October 26 at 7:00 a.m.
CPD,
You missed the most glaring part of the case: The Police managed to disarm Deorle, without shooting him, THREE TIMES. First they disarmed him of the board with nails sticking out of it. Then they disarmed him of two hatchets. Then they disarmed him of the crossbow. Not one shot, not one taser round was expended during the disarming of this man of three potentially lethal weapons. FINALLY, they shot him with a beanbag when he approached them with the lighter fluid, after threatening to kill the officers several times. Yet, it was still objectively unreasonable force.
Why can cops from other areas disarm people without killing them like they do in Spokane? Why can other police forces render swift discipline, like they do in Seattle when the cop killed the woodcarver, who refused to drop his knife?
What the hell is wrong with the police in Spokane?
misjustice on October 26 at 7:19 a.m.
@ sad; Indeed? What the hell is wrong with the cops, here. Are they all like RValenz?
Gimple on October 26 at 7:35 a.m.
All of you people out there who think that the police will be there when you need help should read “Warren v. District of Columbia” THEN try callin’ a cop for help. If they show up in a low income community they WILL arrest sombody Often as not it will be the one who called them. If they show up in a more affluent community, they will do their best to serve and protect. Rich people can impact the careers of these thugs.
Sadbuttrue on October 26 at 9:18 a.m.
Re: RValenz
I have figured out who this kook is, and Spokanites should be afraid, very afraid. This is yet another unhinged, deranged murderous goon who came to Spokane by way of California, then Kootenai County. Is your heart sinking again yet? It should be. I will fill in the details of the alleged “domestic violence” situation that he feels so sorry for himself about.
The poor guy was suicidal after finding out his very pregnant wife had an affair. He was threatening to kill himself. He had already gone once to Kootenai Medical center about his suicidal feelings, but was turned away. He made no threats to harm anyone else, only himself. He ran to his pickup in the driveway and she ran after him, trying to get the car keys away him. He was grabbing back at them sitting in the driver’s seat when this murderous thug of a cop showed up, at the behest of an ignorant bystander. Cop pulls in behind the pickup, to block its exit, whips out his gun and starts shooting (4 times) through the back wall of the pickup, hitting the suicidal guy in the back all four times, sending shards of glass which hits the pregnant wife covering her in glass particles, who had her arm through the driver’s window, wrestling for the keys. The panicked driver, now firmly in life-preserving mode after this unfortunate meeting with a murderous, deranged lunatic, grabs the keys firmly this time, starts the vehicle, drives across the lawn and leads the police on a “slow” elude to the neighboring county, where he peacefully submits to their police. (This account is directly from a Shoshone County Deputy, by the way).
He refuses to stop in Kootenai County, terrified of the unhinged goons they call police there. They take him back to Kootenai County for medical treatment, he is charged with multiple felonies, all of which are dropped when he pleads guilty to a misdemeanor eluding charge. This cop is fired for excessive force (and some people say there is no God!), but is soon hired by the Spokane Police Department, leaving a vast trail of perjury, excessive force lawsuits, violence against handcuffed suspects etc. etc in his wake in Idaho. So notorious is he for repeatedly lying under oath in Court, that a number of judges dismiss charges against defendants, ruling that this cop had absolutely no credibility.
There you have poor, pitiful RValenz’s tale of mistreatment and woe, and how he put his poor skin on the line by repeatedly shooting an unarmed suicidal man in the back and shooting directly in the direction of a very pregnant woman.
Let’s all cluster together and sing Kumbaya for this tortured hero. .
Ron_the_Cop on October 26 at 10:08 a.m.
If folks want real change then read my comment in the S-R’s Editorial endorsement of Frank Malone in for Spokane Co Prosecutor:
Editorial: Prosecutor’s office needs new leader: Malone
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/oct/26/editorial-prosecutors-office-needs-new-leader/
The S-R Editorial Board for once has made the right decision. Steve Tucker with is management style of being largely MIA definitely needs to go. Tucker’s been MIA one to many times.
“What is crucial in our community is the collective bar needs to be raised on how “officer involved shootings” (OIS) and/or critical incidents are investigated. The County Prosecutor is one of the key leaders in the law enforcement community that can advocate for this needed change and bring public transparency/accountability in these incidents. The public is loosing it’s trust and confidence in its law enforcement community. . .”
Bob_Knows on October 26 at 10:10 a.m.
The blue gun thug Gestapo always justifies feeding at the public trough by claiming to “protect” the people. But what they actually do time after time is cold blooded murder. Sure, they always have rules, laws, and double talk, but the bottom line is that they have murdered people they were hired to protect.
We the People do not need or want hired killers wandering around town murdering people. We do not need to pay taxes to support murder in our city. Its time we just stop paying for mass murder of The People by the blue gun thug Gestapo, cut out their budget and run the lot of them out of town.
misjustice on October 26 at 11:56 a.m.
@ sad; for real? That dude posts on KXLY all the time and he’s very anti-citizen and over the top pro-cops. I didn’t know he’s a “REAL” cop…scary, if true.
Sadbuttrue on October 26 at 12:24 p.m.
Misjustice,
I only wrote about one incident. People who knew him well in Kootenai County are basically 100 percent sure the guy is a walking time bomb. There is no known way of diffusing him. He is a true psycho killer. There is no doubt that he will kill someone.
Bank on it.
The case I spoke of above was miraculous, pure and simple. that one or more people weren’t killed. How on earth did that guy live after being shot in the back four times? How on earth was the pregnant woman missed from a hail of bullets when she was leaning through the driver’s side window, all the while being splattered with glass shards from richochetting bullets?
He left California under a cloud, involving evidence tampering and beating suspects. He is an overbearing, rude pr!ck, even in routine traffic stops. People stopped for speeding should relax and plan on wasting at least an hour, while he tries to develop a case that you are the head of a large drug distribution conspiracy. Don’t even THINK about how terrible it would be if you are a minority.
Idaho gave him the bum’s rush after just a couple of years, likewise California. Now this unhinged goon is running loose on the streets of Spokane.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
RValenzCatCityPD8702 on October 26 at 12:54 p.m.
Re; Sadbuttrue. Just like your name implies, it sad but true you don’t know what you’re talking about. As for me, sadly I am not the person you think I am. I was not involved in the incident you so graciously shared with us, for I am still and have always been here in sunny So. Cal. Unless you count the time t spent on the better side of Washington State, the true northwest as a young man with family. Or when I was offered positions in the Seattle PD, Vancouver PD and others only to pass for reasons you need not worry your little head about.
No, Mr, or Mrs., Sad but true, my career has all been here in southern California. The sad tall you told of the cheating pregnant wife was a doozy, but as I stated, not mine. It is good to know there are people like you to jump to conclusions and prejudge the minutest shreds of information you come across. It makes for good reading.
Stay warm Spokane, it’s 85 here, and have a pleasant day.
D Statler on October 26 at 2:45 p.m.
10-4 on voting for Malone as Spokane’s new Prosecutor. Then empty the drug and gang taskforce and reassemble it with honest cops / DETECTIVES and clean deputy prosecutors.This will go along ways trying to restore our public trust.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF DRUG MONEY THEY MISAPPROPRIATED? SURE WOULD COME IN HANDY PAYING FOR ALL THE LAWSUITS JUST AROUND THE CORNER !!
SPOKESMAN REVIEW article 2/12/2009
misjustice on October 26 at 3:45 p.m.
@ undooley; ah yes, The Goose That Laid The Golden Egg!
@RValenz; good, stay there. We don’t need anymore cop transfers from CA. I do have to wonder what your attraction for a po dunk cow town like Spokane is? I see your posts all the time on our local news sources.
cpd805 on October 26 at 4:04 p.m.
Sad, I’m not missing that glaring point. Based on reading it, I agree that it was an unjustified use of force under those circumstances. However, I guarantee that if he had been hit in the stomach rather than the eye socket, we would not be reading about that case. Had the officer given warning of the bean bag, we would not be reading about that case. Still the point when you brought up the case was the “21 foot rule”, which the case was not even about, nor did it affect.
Spokane area police do use non-lethal tactics to stop threats, seen it many times, but YOU never read about or hear about them, as they are not deemed “newsworthy”. The shootings of late were not appropriate times for less lethal tactics. Less lethal tactics are for incidents where there are enough officers on scene. Things to consider when using less lethal are: 1. Having a lethal option in the case of less lethal failure, 2. Having enough officers on scene to form an arrest team as soon as the suspect is incapacitated (otherwise you have just pissed him off), 3. The weapon involved (never with a gun, with a knife only if the above 2 points are met.
Less lethal is the option we would prefer to use, but the circumstances of the particular incident have to make it a viable option.
cpd805 on October 26 at 4:17 p.m.
RValenz,
That was a fanciful story told by Sad. I wonder how much of it is true. He/she does have a history in this forum of not exactly being truthful. First with some “phantom” cop videos he/she sent to “professional police trainers” to be analyzed but could not provide any link to the videos other than “krem.com“, then with misrepresenting the facts of a 9th Circus court case, and maybe now with this story. However, in all fairness, I think he/she may have just misunderstood the court case and the misrepresentation may not have been intentional. Only Sad knows.
Sad,
I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt….may have happened. Please share who you are talking about and some media account of the incident you are referring to. Thank you.
Sadbuttrue on October 26 at 4:35 p.m.
Misrepresentation, Cpd? You mean like your statement that Deorle had no crossbow? You musta somehow read the case differently than me …..
For your own safety, here is the link describing the shooting of a suicidal person in Hayden, Idaho. There are many, many inaccuracies in the story, however.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?ID=9315
misjustice on October 26 at 4:41 p.m.
Sciortino sounds like a real piece of work. I wonder how the profiling/harassment lawsuit ended?
Sadbuttrue on October 26 at 4:50 p.m.
Many of the inaccuracies are best shown just by going to the “Idaho Court Repository” and entering a name search for the suicidal guy. One lousy misdemeanor Eluding charge, after all of the mayhem, wrecked cars and endangered cops and family members. Based upon the officer’s rendition of events as outlined in the news article, one would have suspected multitudes of felonies with years of jail time.
Good thing this is now Spokane’s problem.
Sadbuttrue on October 26 at 5:18 p.m.
Based on the word of our misunderstood sterling Protector of Society, bond was originally set at a whopping $500,000 with all kinds of potential felonies in the works……
Byline: Erica Curless
Mar. 16—Calling him “extremely dangerous,” a magistrate judge set a $500,000 bond Thursday for Victor Leon Jr., the man whom officers shot before he led officers on a 40-minute car chase Wednesday. Magistrate Judge Scott Wayman charged Leon with felony eluding an officer and agreed with a prosecutor that there are “serious concerns” about Leon’s mental condition. More charges are anticipated, including aggravated assault on an officer, once the investigation of Wednesday’s car chase and shooting is complete, said Kootenai County sheriff’s Capt. Ben Wolfinger.That could happen as soon as today. During his first court appearance, via …
None of the additional “anticipated charges” were ever filed. As the case wend its way through the court system, more and more discrepancies and outright falsehoods in the deputy’s version of events were exposed, until we reached the point where all of the felonies, aggravated assaults on a police officer, felony eluding and so on got reduced down ….
and down …..
….. and down ……..
And as the outrage of the family increased to a fever pitch (that is, the extremely ungrateful family members whose lives had recently been saved by the heroic cop ….. or maybe they weren’t) down…..
and further down …….
and on down …….
the charges went, until our dangerously-violent person pled guilty to a charge less serious than a DUI.
Icarus on October 26 at 6:06 p.m.
Hate to say this But if I just font trust the cops in Spokane… Weird cause I moved here from Oakland. Since Iv lived here Iv been stopped by the cops twice. Fist time was because I match the the description of a Hispanic guy that broke in to a house ( Im about 6ft 3 and I think i had a lime green Mohawk at the time and am fairly covered in tattoos oh and pretty pale as well.) I kinda blew that off because Hey I kinda look different. Tell I got to work explained it to my boss and he asked me If I had my name badge on and well I did… Second time was by the same cop about a week later when i was walking home from meeting a friend downtown for a drink and i was stopped because he had seen we walking up Monroe twice…. This time I asked the cop why he stopped me and He tried to escalate the issue.
The police here need to realize they aren’t a gang. Im more worried about having to deal with them then the junkie down the road. Or the lil wanna be gangsters down town. Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
cpd805 on October 26 at 6:10 p.m.
Sad, Thank you for posting that article. So, a Deputy fires shots at a vehicle that is driving recklessly, hitting several vehicles. Was the deputy disciplined for this incident? Was it determined to be excessive force, or is this just your opinion which is consistent with your opinion on virtually every law enforcement use of force? Also, it is funny how you say there are many inaccuracies in the story, but you and others seem to blindly accept stories in the same newspaper regarding the recent incidents. It is a newspaper. Do you not realize you cannot trust what you read in a newspaper?
By the way, if the crossbow that Deorle was NOT armed with at the time of the use of force is your smokin’ gun as a “misrepresentation”, that is pretty weak……at least compared to how you initially attempted to paint the case. Good thing someone called you on it. I know your tactic….throw as much mud as you can and some is bound to stick, warranted or not.
Sadbuttrue on October 26 at 6:29 p.m.
Um….”driving recklessly” in your own driveway, with a cop car parked behind you? How did he manage that? I didn’t see a “reckless driving” charge, did you? How come there were no malicious injury to property charges for all of the cars that were supposedly wrecked? How come there were no assault charges for Leon’s supposed terrorizing his family our brave and noble public servant speedily stopped with his fearless gun play? If it was a “high speed” chase as our cop declared under oath in order to charge him with a felony eluding charge, why was it quickly dropped to a misdemeanor eluding (by definition, no lives in danger, 30 or miles or less over the speed limit)? Why was the heroic cop assigned with driving the jail transport van between the jail and court for his last two months of official employment? Why did Leon eagerly and helpfully turn himself in to the Shoshone County Sheriff’s Office as soon as he crossed the county line?
No vehicles were hit. None. No one was in danger, except at the hands of this deranged sub-cretinous goon blazing away wildly.
Anyway, he is Spokane’s problem now. Have a nice day!
Bob_Knows on October 26 at 7:09 p.m.
Can any of you cop lovers please explain how the blue gun thugs PROTECTED Mr. Quentin Donald Dodd? If they weren’t protecting him, tell us why they shouldn’t be summarily fired for malfeasance and failure to do their job?
cpd805 on October 27 at 12:30 a.m.
Well, the article you posted (full of inaccuracies as you say) said that: “He allegedly struck “several vehicles, which included a patrol vehicle,”. The report said “several family members were in harm’s way” (at the door of the vehicle trying to stop him) and that Leon’s wife was injured.” But that is just the source you cited….full of inaccuracies. Also it says the chase ended when he ran out of gas, not that he pulled into the nearest Shoshone County Sheriff’s Office to turn himself in to get away from the Kootenai County Deputies trying to kill him.
You know these are inaccuracies because of what? Were you there? You know someone who was there? Are you basing that on the final charging decisions by the prosecutor? Charges get amended all the time and is dependent on a multitude of factors. You seem to know the report if full of inaccuracies and that YOU know the truth, and this is based on………….
bszottlinger on October 27 at 8:16 a.m.
cpd/sad:
I always enjoy reading your dialog. It clearly demonstrates how two individuals with different backgrounds and experience levels reach diverse conclusions concerning an issue. My take is that each of you have very legitimate points and each of you overlook some important points and perhaps you could consider the following:
Putting aside the fact pattern in Deorle v. Rutherford what impact does the panel decision have on the issue of qualified immunity for officers in Washington State and is the decision in line with established case law in other districts or will the Ninth decide to address another case en banc dealing with with the same issues?
What impact if any does Bryan v. McPherson have on the most recent shooting where everyone is questioning the utilization of non-lethal methods ( I realize with respect to Bryan v. McPherson for some bloggers, like Elkay and Misjustice, the dominate issue in the case will be Boxers v. Briefs)?
misjustice on October 27 at 9:53 a.m.
Brad; but, but, but, Bryan was not armed; and was barely dressed!
“First, it is undisputed that Officer McPherson failed to warn Bryan that he would be shot with the X26 if he did not comply with the order to remain in his car…Here, it was feasible to give a warning that the use of force was imminent if Bryan did not comply. While a warning to Bryan may or may not have caused him to comply, there was “ample time to give that order or warning and no reason whatsoever not to do so.” Deorle, 272 F.3d at 1284.
“Second, we have held that police are “required to consider `[w]hat other tactics if any were available’ to effect the arrest.”
590 F.3d 767 (2009)
My take away from the above case; Was Mr. Dodd warned, and were other tactics considered?
Ron_the_Cop on October 27 at 10:18 a.m.
This may be of use in this discussion as I replied to Jeff and Arlicane over at Community Comment:
Jeff and Arlicane,
Actually I can agree with both of your points. I too have gone through combat firearms training many a time (No I know this isn’t a war zone). Our range had moving targets at different distances with “friendlies” mixed in. At times the rangemaster would introduce something to increase the stress factor - running, timer running, firecrackers behind you, nite simulation, injured strong hand requiring weak hand shooting, dummy load to jam gun - had to clear jam rerack slide with foot if arm injured et al.
Sometimes we used simminitions (sp) and a video screen re different scenarios. Every now and then we had a training trailer that would arrive. This one had plastic bullets that would fire back at you. If you left a knee or shoulder out from cover it would leave a welt. Look we did not train to shoot for arm/leg, you shot for center mass and head. The ultimate goal was to develop critical skills to shoot the bad guys and not the friendlies.
In this latest shooting we don’t know the facts yet. What was the distance, what was the attitude/demeanor of the subject, was he charging the officer, did the officer receive information that the subject was armed - with a gun. What kind of knife was this? Could this have been mistaken as a gun?
If the subject was not presenting an immediate threat to the officer or others then of course less-than lethal should have been considered whether it be a shotgun deployed bean bag or Taser. Did they even have this other equipment available or did they have time to deploy it. Was the subject just sitting or was he running. Was there a possibility he would flee into a nearby house causing a hostage situation. These things are never as easy as others seem to think. These are the things that would be going through my mind. These are real situations that all happened at my agency at one time or another.
I do know officers at my agency that were stabbed seriously because they let someone get too close. As for guns we lost six officers during my thirty-five year career at Riverside PD, CA. We had two separate ambush type shootings where we lost two officers each. I happened to be the first responding officer to the last one with Officers Dennis Doty and Phil Trust.
See the RPD Memorial page:
http://web.mac.com/rpdremembers/RPD_Remembers/Memorial.html
misjustice on October 27 at 10:29 a.m.
Ron; what’s your take on leadership’s silence? What’s up with Annie and Ozzie?
bszottlinger on October 27 at 11:13 a.m.
Justy:
It is always interesting to me how people interpret the case law and the facts surrounding the case law. Different people will have different interpretations, including lawyers. We don’t know the facts in this case, but without question there will be varying opinions regarding the way the officer reacted. Ron makes some very good points, at least in my mind.
What it all boils down to in the end is were the officer’s actions reasonable or not. It’s the why or why not that becomes the issue.
Knives kill, no question, even a little tiny pocket knife. According to the FBI stats. there have been three officers killed in the last ten years with knives. There have been a number of others injured. How those numbers fit into the equation I have no idea, but I would think they do deserve some consideration.
I feel some of the officers posting here don’t understand that citizens expectations of how officers deal with situations is open for discussion and there will always be individuals critical of any action they take. Understanding that, and learning from the understanding is the first step in developing a better rapport with the community.
My personal expectations for any officer in critical situations is first and foremost protect the citizens, secondly protect themselves. Do so in a reasonable manner that takes into account that regardless of the outcome they can honestly live the rest of their life knowing what they did was right.
So…..boxers or briefs?
bszottlinger on October 27 at 11:15 a.m.
I’ll give you my take. They learned something from Creach!
disgusted on October 27 at 12:04 p.m.
The reports say they sladed him at the 20 foot interval
For him to drop dead at that distance and he had to be fired at 25 to 30 feet before that interval if he was charging which is highly unlikely I bet he just was standing there trying to explain it wasn’t a real knife and they went ahead and killed him because it would be cool in their circle to have a confermed kill and on top of it reward them with time off paid by us taxpayers
It will be interesting to see how many bullets was shot the more the holes the further away he was Spokane police investagate the vally police and the vally police does spokane so they say he was 20 feet out inorder for him fall at right at that distance he had to be fired on prior to that interval
Elkay on October 27 at 12:05 p.m.
Oh, boxers for sure. Plaid ones if possible … they’re more open to interpretation.
misjustice on October 27 at 12:35 p.m.
Brad; Boxers v Briefs, it depends on the guy.
; )
And regarding my question to Ron, your answer was along the lines of what I was thinking.
cpd805 on October 27 at 6:23 p.m.
Brad, Diverse conclusions indeedy.
The McPhereson and Deorle courts both put a lot on emphasis on the fact that no warnings were given as to the use of force (taser or beanbag).
You also stated: “I feel some of the officers posting here don’t understand that citizens expectations of how officers deal with situations is open for discussion and there will always be individuals critical of any action they take”. Not sure if that was aimed in my direction, but I assure you I have learned LONG ago that there are those who will criticize regardless of circumstances….and I ACCEPT THAT..
However, when people come in here and grossly misrepresent case law and make all kinds of fanciful claims, and present them as fact without being able to back it up, I will call them on it.
Elkay on October 27 at 6:47 p.m.
cpd805,
You said …”but I assure you I have learned LONG ago that there are those who will criticize regardless of circumstances”. I’m curious as to how you (and others in LE) handle unwarranted criticism.
I took the Citizen’s Police Academy course here — nearly 20 years ago, and what I learned there is how much LE can NOT do when someone has obviously broken the law.
It’s a good thing I’m in a different career … I’m afraid that just my mouth alone would get me in a lot of trouble.
bszottlinger on October 27 at 7:24 p.m.
Nope, not at you. I do however understand the point Sad was trying to make, not that I agree necessarily, but I understand how he could come to the conclusions he did.
As an example, there are retired police officers who post on here that honestly believe that Hirzel committed a trespass, and I understand how they have come to that conclusion. Although someone may make an issue of it in the civil litigation and could perhaps sell it to a jury, my belief is that it is not an issue unless there is evidence Hirzel was doing something nefarious, like stealing plants or fertilizer, or meeting his paramour etc. Those issues must be addressed during the initial stages of the investigation. If they are not it could easily be used to convince a civil jury that his reasons for being there were in fact nefarious, especially if the vehicle he was using wasn’t examined with those issues in mind.
The retired officers who have that opinion will argue that they can back up their opinion and they will cite various law and provide examples that they honestly feel support their position.
I guess what I’m saying is even cops will disagree with other cops regarding what is right or wrong, so disagreement with John/Jane Q is to be expected.
Elkay on October 27 at 7:41 p.m.
Brad, I get what you’re saying about these blog disagreements. But unless I have something intelligent to add or ask, I’m keeping my mouth duct taped. Some of these POV’s are great; others, insane.
I think leadership is what is most needed (SPD, Prosecutor’s office) … and has been most notably absent.
Elkay on October 27 at 8:12 p.m.
By the way, do people really steal fertilizer? I mean, I have a dog who could out-do any steer, and anyone would be welcome to stop by for this invaluable freebie. No questions asked.
glasshalfmt on October 27 at 8:41 p.m.
This must be the “bleeding heart liberal viewpoint” report. The knife weilding perp jumps at the cop, who is trying to do his job (many witnesses), while yelling “kill me, kill me, kill me” and ends up getting killed, and the whiners cry “injustice”. So call the ACLU.
What? As to say the cop had no business defending himself? The garbage here has been ‘taken out’. I’m sorry for his mommy, but he should have thought about the grief he would cause her before becoming a meth head P.O.S.! Nobody to blame here but the corpse.
D Statler on October 28 at 8:50 a.m.
There is a big difference between a knife and a rock.There is a big difference between TWO 200 plus pound officers and a 100 pound diabetic / recovering addict waiting for an organ transplant.These cops knew when called they were dealing with an unstable person and THEY MADE A BAD DECISION!
EXCESSIVE FORCE is EXCESSIVE FORCE!
again!
bszottlinger on October 28 at 9:11 a.m.
glasshalfmt:
Here is the point of view of an “independent who leans conservative”. From the press accounts it appears the officer was justified in what he did. I take it you have never had to kill anyone, I have, and I went through a period of time where I refered to the people I killed as among other things “P.O.S.” it took me awhile to understand that in reality they weren’t. But I had to bring myself to believe they were in order to kill them. They all had mothers, just as I did, they all had lives just as I did, and I believe deep down they all wanted to live just as I did. I hope that’s not the case with you. (trying to work yourself up to prepare your mindset in case you have to kill a “perp”)
In my lifetime I have had to deal with people who had done some very heinous things including murder. Many were drug addicts, many had tried to kill themselves,and none had anyone to blame but themselves. However, I never met one that I felt needed to be “taken out” with the garbage.
The are a number of people in Spokane who have children addicted to drugs many of whom have tried to commit suicide. Some of those parents are pillars of the community and include Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Judges, and yes even Police Officers. I’m wondering how they would feel about what you have written.
When it comes to dealing with human life, perhaps it’s attitudes like yours that make some members of the community hate the police. If you are a police officer or a prosecutor, the next time you are in front of Judge Debra Hayes I hope you don’t mention that you feel her son was just as well off having taken himself out with the garbage.
You, whoever you are, are no better then the people you call “perps”.
Elkay on October 28 at 10:24 a.m.
Brad (a/k/a Mr. Patience),
Sometimes it takes an experienced person like you to offer the perspective you have and share it with (what seems like) too many who devalue life.
The lack of civility and respect has really shone through on these various blogs — whether it’s name-calling or utterly stupid assumptions. Words actually penetrate and can wound.
Anyway, thanks for what you wrote.
misjustice on October 28 at 3:02 p.m.
Counselor, a moving closing statement!
misjustice on October 28 at 4:35 p.m.
Same old people making the same old statements. Things never change!
Maybe those that keep confronting officers will finally get the message that if you don’t comply, you get shot. If you get the message you just might live to see another day.
cpd805 on October 28 at 9:48 p.m.
Wow Brad, well put.
cpd805 on October 28 at 10:05 p.m.
undooly: “These cops knew when called they were dealing with an unstable person”
It is the unstable persons who are the most dangerous. I get why you feel that 2 officers should be able to physically handle one man. I also know, and have personally seen exactly what a knife can do to a person. All it takes is one swoop of the blade to the neck and you are dead. It takes a fraction of a second, and does not take a lot of force. To attempt to be the tough guy and physically confront a knife weilding man is a foolhardy, stupid thing to do.
And I agree there is a big difference between a knife and a rock. There is also a big difference between a knife and a hunk of steel. One is sharpened and the other is not. There is not, however, a big difference between a knife, and a rock sharpened into a knife. Both are equally deadly.
Bob_Knows on November 01 at 5:19 p.m.
Yep, two violent gun thugs and 1 old sick man. Cold blooded MURDER. A fair trial would hang them at dawn. Don’t look for justice in Spokane. Justice just never happens here. The killer gun thugs are terrorizing the people, that’s their job.