Spokane7
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September 1, 2010 in City
Son offers insight into pastor’s fatal encounter
Wayne Scott Creach
(Full-size photo)
Spokane Valley pastor Wayne Scott Creach and his wife had a prearranged system for when the business owner encountered trespassers on the couple’s sprawling nursery and greenhouse complex in Spokane Valley. He’d go outside and shout if there was a problem, at which point she was to call 911, Creach’s son, Alan Creach, said in an interview Tuesday.
Imogene Creach followed that script Aug. 25, calling 911 when she heard what she thought were three shots fired. Alan Creach said his mother could see other patrol cars arriving before she hung up the phone.
“She went around the back door, in front of the greenhouse, and could see my dad lying there on the parking lot,” Alan Creach said. “There was nobody around him and his left knee was raised in the air. She was about 20 feet away, and she was intercepted by a sheriff’s deputy.
“He prevented her from having any contact or hearing any final words that he might have to say. After (she and the deputy) talked for a moment, she started to understand the gravity of the moment. At that point, she called us and we showed up as quickly as we could,” he said.
Alan Creach said his family is still mystified over many details of the fatal incident, which took only moments to unfold and remains largely unexplained nearly a week later.
The deputy who shot Scott Creach is scheduled to talk to investigators Thursday. Spokane Police Department spokeswoman Officer Jennifer DeRuwe declined to comment Tuesday on details of the incident provided by Alan Creach. Spokane police are investigating as part of a previous agreement covering officer-involved shootings.
Spokane County Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich didn’t return a call seeking comment but said Monday that investigators won’t know why Deputy Brian Hirzel shot the 74-year-old pastor until Hirzel is interviewed later this week.
Alan Creach said his mother called him moments after the incident; when he got to the house, at 14208 E. Fourth Ave., he said he looked out his father’s bathroom window and could see only the front end of a dark car, which turned out to be Hirzel’s unmarked patrol vehicle backed into the private parking lot at the Plant Farm, his father’s business.
He said his father apparently noticed the car, put on his pants and slippers, grabbed his .45-caliber pistol and went outside to investigate what he thought was a prowler, Alan Creach said.
“He didn’t take the time to put on his shirt,” Creach said. “My mom heard him leave the bedroom. He thought enough to take his gun, but not enough to get her out of bed.”
Imogene Creach then heard what she later described as a loud voice. “Her best description was a shout of fear and great surprise,” Alan Creach said. “She couldn’t define exactly what was said and immediately following that she heard ‘pop, pop, pop.’ ”
Witnesses to the west reported hearing the three pops, but those on the north heard only one. Alan Creach said the evidence suggests that only one shot was fired but that witnesses may have heard the sound of the one shot echoing among the many greenhouses.
He said after his mother ended the call to 911, she put on some clothes and walked the same path that Scott Creach did as he approached Hirzel’s car. She saw him lying in the gravel parking lot about 5 feet from the car just as Spokane Valley Fire Department paramedics were arriving.
Alan Creach, who lives a mile and a half away, said when he arrived his father was in the parking lot covered with a blanket. He said detectives later told the family that they saw evidence that medical aid had been provided.
“When was that medical attention applied? What happened between the time he was shot and paramedics arrived?” Creach asked. “We really don’t know other than what she saw when she came around the corner. She said no one was providing aid and his left leg was in the air.”
Creach said he also learned from detectives that his father’s .45-caliber pistol did not have a round in the chamber, meaning he could not have immediately fired the weapon. He said his father had three or four instances a year where he would hear something going on in his nursery.
“He would always respond with his weapon. Mom would stay in the bedroom and if she heard something, she would call 911,” Creach said. “He behaved like he would normally behave. In all the years we had these events, Dad apprehended several individuals. But he never shot anybody.”
Creach said his father did not call deputies every time he had an encounter. In one case, Scott Creach found a senior citizen who got lost in the greenhouse complexes. “He never harmed anyone and in many cases he helped people,” Alan Creach said.
Lori Rice, who works at the Plant Farm, said Tuesday that Scott Creach told her of an incident two weeks before the shooting where a man in a Corvette parked at night in the same private lot where the shooting took place.
“Scott told me the guy said he was just making a phone call. Scott said he told the man it was private property and he suggested he move along. That’s about as confrontational as he got,” Rice said. “It’s a horrible, horrible thing.”
Answers haven’t come fast enough for the family. Investigators have said that Hirzel, a 41-year-old deputy assigned to the Spokane Valley Police Department, responded to the area at 11 p.m. based on an earlier prowl call. Alan Creach said that call was made by a woman three houses down from the nursery at 4 p.m. on Aug. 25, the day of the shooting.
Creach also was critical of the decision to wait until Thursday to interview Hirzel. Creach said Spokane police detectives interviewed his mother immediately after the shooting.
“Within 20 to 30 minutes, all the witnesses were interviewed, but the prime witness has been left for a week and a day to sit back and find out which way the wind is blowing,” Creach said.
He added that the Spokane Police Department detectives were very respectful of Imogene Creach as they asked their questions on the night of the shooting.
“The issue is not the humanity. The issue I’m having is with the protocols they set out, which are basically protocols set up to cover themselves and the department,” he said. “When I was a kid, my dad expected me to tell the truth and tell it immediately. If there was any hesitation, then generally the truth was going to have to be explained. The same kind of standard that was applied to my mother should have been given to that officer, as well.”
Rice, the employee, said Scott Creach would take 20 minutes every Saturday morning to have coffee with his employees at the nursery.
“It’s hard for the customers because he was such a well-loved man,” Rice said. “Hopefully we’ll get some answers. But we’ll never know the whole story because the other side can’t be told.”
Killing suspect remains at large 
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lucs on September 01 at 3:39 a.m.
So, did medical help ever arrive. I see no mention of it.
skierdc1 on September 01 at 5:58 a.m.
The fact that the deputy who shot this man has still not been interviewed is truly a travesty and makes a mockery of our local justice system. We need to call for Ozzie’s head and get a chief interested in justice instead of covering his (and his men’s) rear. And this is too bad because there are some very fine officers in their department that I know personally.
lucs on September 01 at 6:31 a.m.
I agree, this is bad.
In Seattle a cop shot a guy with a pocket knife 4-5 times.
I’m still waiting for a decision on Otto Zehm.
Right now, I am much more afraid of the police than any criminal. I’m 65 and law abiding.
Pat O'Leary on September 01 at 6:58 a.m.
This process is absolutely disgusting. The cop involved has had a week to rehearse his lines for tomorrow’s grand performance. An innocent man was gunned down like a mad dog and the cop is treated like a prima donna that has to be protected from the public…..the very people he is supposed to protect. I think it is time for the people to start running the police departments and cops that don’t like it can get a job elsewhere. They have these “divine” rituals that are essentially cover their butt rules that allow them to never be at fault. Name a cop that’s gone down lately. They kill at will and then walk away with no consequences. Shonto Pete shot in the head, Otto Zehm killed with a plastic jug of Pepsi and a Snickers bar in his hands, jail inmate donkey-kicked to death, Pastor Creach killed while trying to protect his own property, a man being detained, kicked in the head. The litany goes on forever it seems. The man who killed Otto is still working to this very day. I just don’t understand what is going on in this city and county.
wcpeabody on September 01 at 7:14 a.m.
So why isn’t an outside agency like the State Patrol investigating this?
dataxman on September 01 at 7:17 a.m.
Looks like the citizens of Spokane County will be breaking out their checkbooks again and writing a very large check to the members of this good family - and even more to pay the wages of the officer as he spends his days fishing and relaxing around the house on paid leave waiting for the exoneration of his actions that will surely come…
lewis8457 on September 01 at 7:30 a.m.
168 hours later and still the cop has not talked. But they interviewed Scotts wife as he lay out in the parking lot.
and they told all of us he would talk in 48 hours and if he didn’t by 72 hours he was fired.
That is one of many questions did he receive any aid? No one seems to know. If he did would they have just left him there? And wouldn’t that have destroyed the crime scene?
Sadly I think the Creach family is in the same boat as Mrs. Zehm, taking on water fast with no justice in site. In fact mother justice is probably making donuts for the cops.
Nugget on September 01 at 7:39 a.m.
Why is it everyone rags on the policeman as being such a horrible person? No one is telling the truth about the man that was shot. Reporters are trying to make a martyr out of him. He wasn’t entirely the person they are making him out to be.
Wake up people.
opiemuyo on September 01 at 8:03 a.m.
Don’t worry Nugget, any time there is a post about law enforcement there is a whole crew of professional malcontents that post how bad the cops are and then if you post something positive they flame you to submission.
The State Patrol and the SPD are both doing separate investigations,if they bothered to read the previous articles and the officer cannot be questioned per union contract for a certain period of time post incident. The investigators have no control over this, and do not immediately release information much to the malcontents chagrin.
This is a very sad incident and I pray for all involved in this death. The family, and the cop that has to live with this for the rest of his life.
tardwhisperer on September 01 at 8:05 a.m.
My God…are all you people compelled to reveal your ignorance? The officer can interview anytime he wants…or not if he chooses. Remember Constitutional rights? One does not have to talk at all….does the Jon Benet Ramsey case ring any bells? Police officers are afforded the same rights. He already said he is coming in…according to this wonderful publication, he is interviewingThursday. He was confronted by an armed man. If ya don’t wanna be shot, don’t point a gun at a cop. Would this be an equal tragedy if it had been a gang banger who was shot?
Scoutster on September 01 at 8:10 a.m.
Ahhhhh, Nugget…time to start blaming the victim, huh?
Ozzie…how about a news conference? You were all over TV for some things (Insane Killer Escapes at Fair!), why not this?
Don’t answer specifics about the case, just lay out for us the procedure that is being applied and the rationale for it. That should be easy to defend, eh?
dialectica on September 01 at 8:21 a.m.
@Nugget
No one in this comment thread, and few in any of the others, are demonizing the specific officer involved, as you’ve suggested.
The Creach family, in fact, and many others have recognized that Deputy Hirzel and his family are likely dealing with their own flood of emotions over this tragedy.
What many commenters are doing is asking legitimate questions about what appears to be an infuriating double standard over how police deal with their own when investigating these kinds of tragedies.
The reason this case is generating such volatile opinions is because apparently neither person, Creach or Hirzel, was doing anything inherently illegal in the moments leading up to their unfortunate encounter.
Hirzel was ostensibly looking for the best place to take position and watch for vandals and thieves that had been victimizing the neighborhood and while some may believe he should have obtained the property owner’s permission first, his actions up to that point are completely understandable.
Creach, apparently believing a prowler or trespasser was on his property, lawfully armed himself with a pistol and headed outside to protect his private property interests, just as he’s done many times in the past.
What happened next is a tragedy on many, many levels.
And, just as in many cases in the past, we the public are left to wonder what exactly did happen, as the government and others try to dismiss legitimate and healthy questions from the public with replies such as, “Our police have a tough job” and “These are the guys who put their lives on the line day in and day out.”
Everyone agrees our police officers have a tough job, and are thankful that we have well-trained law enforcement agencies. We, as taxpayers, have willingly supported just about every special bond or tax levy that has been sought for public safety purposes.
But it’s understandably tough to see what appears to be a double standard. And, many of us still feel the sting of recent history when police insisted for months that Otto Zehm “lunged” at the first officer on the scene, even though surveillance video that they tried to keep concealed as part of the “ongoing investigation” showed that was complete nonsense.
To our law enforcement officers out there, thank you for your sacrifices and — just as we’ve done for years — we’ll continue to support you in every way we can.
But that doesn’t mean that when tragedy occurs, we give up our right to ask legitimate questions and insist on equal treatment.
lewis8457 on September 01 at 8:25 a.m.
and here they come the piglets in alias. too sacred to show their real name but of authority to tell us how it is.
Union contract? Really? so now that is explanation cant talk with in 168 hours!! when they interview the widow 20 minutes after the incident? The fact you guys think that is right shows how ignorant you really are.
Ninch on September 01 at 8:27 a.m.
Typical of those who blindly support bad actions by police officers is exemplified by Nugget who blames the victim. Or all of us who critically question the tragic event and the followup are called “ignorant.” I just assume that these particular posters are members of law enforcement or friends/family of the officer.
lewis8457 on September 01 at 8:33 a.m.
tur er tard if a gang banger got shot we know the details the next day it has been a week, and nothing.
We were told he would talk last friday or last saturday but instead 168 hours out nothing.
and you can spout how we all have the same rights but if i shoot someone, I go straight to jail. But if I am a cop i get to go home and have a 10 days to get my story straight?
If that is union thing then it is time to disband the unions and run em out of town.
PlanB on September 01 at 8:35 a.m.
I guess I can be considered one of those malcontents that thinks law enforcement must be legitimate to be effective. That involves equal protection, integrity, fairness, among other things. And that just isn’t happening, and sadly it’s no surprise.
“Insane Killer” hah! We did get another worthless law over that! I wonder why they didn’t bring in the cop copter to aid in the shooting investigation?
de3 on September 01 at 8:45 a.m.
Sheriff Knezovich has lost my vote over the delay in interviewing the shooter. In the midst of controversial police actions, he has chosen a path that smells of a cover up to get his story in order, that appears to be treating the shooter with kid gloves.
This does not inspire confidence in addressing the controversy.
Unfortunately, we have a Soviet style election for Sheriff with no one else running against him. Anyone want to run as a write in?
GaryP on September 01 at 8:46 a.m.
Lewis-I’m sure being a disabled janitor makes you an expert on everything. Afterall, you read the Spokesman Review. You know first hand as a janitor what it’s like to have to make a split second, life and death decision. IT WAS A DARK AND STORMY NIGHT, 20 MINUTES TILL THE END OF MY JANITORIAL SHIFT, WHEN THERE IT WAS…….A PLUGGED TOILET!!! DO I USE MY HAND OR A PLUNGER?!!!
spokanada on September 01 at 8:50 a.m.
Gary, I’m glad you were able to add some intelligent dialog to the conversation.
SugarShane on September 01 at 9:08 a.m.
The part that got me was how his wife was restrained when she tried to go to her dead or dying husband who apparently at the time was receiving no medical attention. Sorry mam’ this is a crime scene now. Unfortunately as we’ve been shown in the past, it will be determined that no crime occured and the officer was acting within his training. A quick slap on the wrist, some high fives from his buddies for not being charged and back on patrol for yet another murderer. The police did say that he was going to be questioned after his little 48 hr paid days off and have stretch it out to a full week. Its disgraceful and Ozzie is lucky he’s the only one running as Im sure this would put a dent in his votes.
JayNW on September 01 at 9:13 a.m.
Mr Creach may have been “lawfully” allowed to carry a gun, but you do not have the right to shoot someone for trespassing in a parking lot. You can shoot someone if they are attempting to harm your life, but not simply for being parked on your property.
Not blaming Mr Creach at all, but just seems senseless for him to carry that gun outside. If you want a gun for protection IN your home, thats one thing.
And also- like some others have said- its probably best to not point a gun at someone- especially if the gun isn’t even loaded. I feel bad that Mr. Creach is dead, but there are many mistakes made on his part as well- this isn’t all on the officer.
fbhkymom on September 01 at 9:15 a.m.
Of course the public wants answers. The investigators want answers also. Why would Sheriff Ozzie talk to the media when he doesn’t have anything to tell us? When they know, they’ll let us know. It’s common sense people! I know that can be a rarity here for some of you. What I believe is, that night, Mr. Creach didn’t want to die and that Deputy Hirzel didn’t want to kill anyone. What happened was a tragic set of circumstances that, possibly, could have been avoided, who knows? No one…yet. We all must wait. I trust the investigation will provide the answers in due time. But there’s no reason why the public has to have every piece of information at the same time as the investigators obtain it. COMMON SENSE! GET SOME!
Curiosity may have killed the cat, but speculation gave him paralysis.
dougfresh on September 01 at 9:41 a.m.
Wish cops would focus on “Protect & Serve” instead of intimidate and harass. I’m a law abiding citizen and honestly the police have never done anything beneficial for me, but have caused me undue stress & harassment on several occasions. I know there are some good cops out there, I’ve met a few of em - just seems like they are fewer & farther between these days.
zelda on September 01 at 9:45 a.m.
The beauty of a “full and complete investigation” is that that they can drag it out for months on end. I don’t recall the sheriff divulging a specific time when the public can expect to hear the results of the investigation.
First we hear that per union agreement the officer cannot be interviewed until 48 hours has elapsed. Now it’s turned into more than a week’s lag. Then there will an investigation, then a determination. then yet another procedural step and on and on.
We need to be set expectations for a thorough but swift investigation where the findings will be released to the public without bureacratic delay. To me, words to the effect of “you can’t rush these things” are a weak excuse and only make the public more suspicious.
v1grwil on September 01 at 9:47 a.m.
We can all see that the cops are creating a white wash. The killers’ neighbor in Hayden, Debra, said that the shooter (with vest, better position, equipment, etc) is suffering, just like the Creach’s and that he is a good man. She also brought up the killings of those cops in Seattle where that animal creeped up behind them and shot them. Well Debra, Scott Creach was not a vicious animal out to do harm and murder like that guy in Seattle.
Hirzel shot first and asked questions later. Cops are supposed to put themselves in harms way. They are not suppsed to kill upstanding citizens. The police we in Spokane have are more and more shooting and not asking questions. Remember a couple of years ago swat teams were new. Now the cops call in swat for just about anything.
Did you read about Summer Phelps and that vicious killing where DSHS was found that they had no serious procedural errors when they ignored SEVEN calls to CPS from Summer Phelps neighbors.
We’ve got corrupt and killer cops on the SPD. DSHS is corrupt and ignore peoples rights as a rule and children suffer and die. Now the Sheriff’s dept is going down that dark road. There is going to be a time when the citizens will decide they don’t want to get killed because some chickens**t cop is too scared to do his job. That’s called anarchy. We have way too much government and I for one don’t know how we are going to reduce it.
greg
v1grwil on September 01 at 9:54 a.m.
Jaynw: It is all on the cop. Creach is DEAD. What are you some police guild member? No matter what you can’t go back after your dead. If your telling me that carring a gun outside is enough to get you shot then the opposite is true. If I see somebody outside on my property after dark and I see a gun then I am going to shoot him first and then go see who it was.
That’s called the “wild west”. I thought we were more civiized!
bdr on September 01 at 9:59 a.m.
after reading this……all i can say…..(Friendly fire incident)
This cop must be fired…….! (any cop this jumpy needs to go!)
eagleproducer on September 01 at 10:02 a.m.
Even though Ozzie is running unopposed it is possible to demonstrate your disaffection by simply leaving the box blank next to his name on the ballot. When 100,000 ballots are received and he only receives 25,000 votes, he’ll get the message.
I still think it’s a joke that Sheriffs are elected. But when the place is starting to feel a lot more like Deadwood than the sleepy little backwater it was, perhaps I’ll change my mind and champion the meanest sumb!tch who’s the most willing to use violence we can find.
GaryP: Keep polishing your badge and bravado and don’t expect a call from Letterman anytime soon.
JayNW: Isn’t it speculation that Mr. Creach pointed anything at anyone or are we to rely upon the hearsay provided by his son as an accurate depiction? How would the detectives know Creach brandished the weapon if the officer involved hasn’t spoken to detectives?
lucs on September 01 at 10:10 a.m.
You have to wonder if Creach was still alive when his family arrived on the scene. Possibly with medical attention he might’ve survived or at least said something to the witnesses.
I forgot–”dead men tell no tales.”
Blacksheep3 on September 01 at 10:26 a.m.
Mr. Creach WAS given medical attention! If you read the article this is what it says. “She saw him lying in the gravel parking lot about 5 feet from the car just as Spokane Valley Fire Department paramedics were arriving”. CPR was performed on Mr. Creach when he died.
Sadbuttrue on September 01 at 10:48 a.m.
“These are the guys who put their lives on the line day in and day out.”
That is absolutely, completely not true and there are no facts and statistics that bear that out. In fact, the opposite is true: The police are number #12 on the list of the most dangerous jobs in America this year. Roofers actually “put their lives on the line everyday.” Cops don’t.
The problem with the above egregiously false statement is that it is the very real basis of the training and supervision that cops receive. That is precisely why they have suddenly gotten more and more militaristic and violent in their approach to us citizens. That is why they act like a trigger-happy hostile enemy occupation force out to subdue and vanquish armed enemy combatants. That is why you see more and more citizens killed, maimed and brutalized for no good reason.
Since 1992, 42 citizens of Spokane have been killed by the Police. Only one cop has been killed in Spokane history. Do you see why the above quotation is such a harmful deception and how it leads to such harmful results?
kennyhuston on September 01 at 10:50 a.m.
Of course Mr. Creach’s wife was kept from hearing any possible last words from her dying husband, as that would give another side of “the story”. Which I’m sure all of you know, “the story” will exonerate the officer and villinify Mr. Creach’s actions.
@ JayNW - Are you privy to some information that the rest of us aren’t?
@ GaryP - FYI Otto Zehm was the disabled janitor who was killed by the police. What your stupid post reads to me is that you’re probably a cop, which explains your confusioin on who the disabled janitor is - because I’m sure every cop in this town would rather forget about the whole Zehm debacle and the cover-up that followed! Remember Otto!!!
@ Lewis - They must be in the 123rd hour of the interview huh? Additionally, am I correct in the assumption that you’re not a disabled janitor?
Lastly I’d like to say I’m sorry for those upstanding officers who are employed by the SPD and how your department has managed to tarnish the public’s view of ALL officers via their actions.
kennyhuston on September 01 at 10:54 a.m.
Very good point Sadbuttrue!
soccermomsusie on September 01 at 10:56 a.m.
This is very sad for all involved.
I wish I had the opportunity to see Pastor Creach preach.
Unfortunately, one of Spokane’s few gun-toting parsons has passed. Are there any other ministers out there ready to pick up the handgun, assault rifle or what have you and make the Gospel manifest in Spokane?
Pastor Creach’s handgun stopped a lot of crime in his neighborhood. He and Our Lord are in Heaven, right now, shooting Satan in the butt with AK-47s. If you hear thunder today, think about it.
Condolences and my prayers are with the family and the officer involved.
HEAR OUR VOICE!
nslopeofw on September 01 at 11:00 a.m.
On the same page of the SR, today, for the shooting of George B. Al Hayek, all the participants were interviewed immediately. The shooter is cooperating fully with police. Notice the difference in how these cases unfold? Someone is getting “special” treatment. All you cop protectors need to realize, this is why no one in Spokane can really trust the cops. Anyone else, and they are interviewed, checked out, and sent home or jailed. A cop kills someone, it’s ALWAYS hush, hush.
bszottlinger on September 01 at 11:01 a.m.
I would hope some of the law enforcement officers and supporters posting here understand, though not in a police-shooting scenario, there are some of us who do understand what accompanies the taking of an incident human life after having made a split second decision. The road for this officer will be long and hard and I for one have a tremendous amount of empathy for him and his family.
The fact that I have tremendous empathy for the entire Creach and Hirzel family will not prevent me from questioning as every citizen should no matter their knowledge base the actions of the people they hire to protect them. Some will of course consider many individuals’ questions absurd and others will consider them on point.
The public has very little facts and this point, and unless the pro-law enforcement posters are actually involved in the investigation, I would doubt they do either.
As I have expressed before I am willing to wait. However, here are some of the questions I hope will be answered from the investigation. I realize some may never be answered but I am hoping that unlike the Zehm case steps are appropriately taken to attempt to answer them.
How many shots were actually fired? (Easy enough to determine and withholding the information at this point is appropriate.)
Was there a struggle? (Evidence from a struggle may be found on Mr. Creach’s body and clothing. Evidence may also be found on the officer’s uniform if it was taken as evidence immediately after the shooting, which I hope it was. Withholding this information is appropriate at this point.)
What was the distance from shooter to victim? (Easy to establish and should be withheld at this point.)
Were both weapons submitted for forensic and finger print examination and what did that reveal? (I realize sometimes it is important to make a decision as to which to do first as one may ruin the other. In this case it would appear that because the weapon and ammunition is known, printing would have been the correct choice depending upon the shooting distance, and again appropriate to withhold at this point.)
The questions above represent just a few of the many questions I would have all of which can wait. My point in bringing these questions forward is to attempt to demonstrate that these are all questions that in my mind the investigators should have answers to before their interview with the officer for obvious reasons. A period far longer than 48-72 hours unless the forensic analyses turn around in this jurisdiction is so quick that the investigators can have the answers before the officer interview. Providing the public with detailed knowledge of the investigation at this point is absurd. People who are concerned about individuals getting their story straight should understand that the less information those people have the harder it is to come up with a plausible story. In short, if I were an investigator I would not want the person I am interviewing to know what I know, and they sure as hell would if it were spread all over the media.
I applaud the Sheriff for not succumbing to public pressure to release detail at this point in the investigation.
Brad Szottlinger
Nugget on September 01 at 11:11 a.m.
Quoted from above: “Scott Creach was not a vicious animal out to do harm and murder like that guy in Seattle.”
Mr. Creach had a habit of confronting people on his property with a gun. There have been several occasions where he took people “hostage” by holding them at gun point because he felt they didn’t belong there after hours, no matter what their reason was.
Any time you approach a person & you are pointing a gun, you need to be prepared to expect retaliation. The info I have says the officer told Mr. Creach – several times – to put down the gun & the officer DID identify himself as with the Sheriff’s Office. He was also in uniform.
So, I’m saying quit blaming until you know what really happened and just what the media/SR is wanting to report.
bszottlinger on September 01 at 11:27 a.m.
Nugget:
I hope you realize just how stupid the post you just made was. If you are a law enforcement officer with one of the agencies involved in this case, I hope your boss has your ass.
Brad
MrNatural on September 01 at 11:33 a.m.
This is just a terrible tragedy and one that is all too familiar with guns at the ready.
My deepest sympathies to all affected.
GaryP on September 01 at 11:38 a.m.
Spoketucky-exmilitary, no badge to polish. You give a lot of info on life/death situations even though I’m sure you have none yourself. You are a typical “expert”.
Sad but true-By your “logic” roofing more dangerous than combat. Roofing shingles don’t murder people moron. All those other jobs including roofing is from an accident which is a big difference.
Kenny Huston- my “stupid” post still had more facts than any of your posts. All your “facts” are spoon fed to you from the liberal media. You obviously have no combat/police experience or you wouldn’t say the dumb things you do.
Scoutster on September 01 at 11:38 a.m.
Yes, all those apologists for the police…
Serious question: WHY the delay? What is the reason for this, and who believes this is in the public’s best interests?
Please defend this procedure to us ignorant, cop-hating, kneejerk malcontents.
spokanada on September 01 at 11:58 a.m.
The officer was on vacation.
Sadbuttrue on September 01 at 12:03 p.m.
“I applaud the Sheriff for not succumbing to public pressure to release detail at this point in the investigation.”
Do you also applaud the Sheriff for sending the officer off on vacation the day after shooting? Somehow, this doesn’t sound like a principled stand against “succumbing to public pressure” anymore, does it?
Reminds you of the Super Bowl advertisement, where the player, after winning the Super Bowl, announces “I’m going to Disneyworld.”
The officer should be tanned and rested for his interview next week.
lucs on September 01 at 12:08 p.m.
@blacksheep3
There is No mention of CPR being administered. The medics arrived–-the family is questioning if any assistance was actually rendered.
What dept are you getting your info from, the rest of us aren’t as privileged.
Nugget on September 01 at 12:10 p.m.
bszottlinger on September 01 at 11:27 a.m. Nugget:
I hope you realize just how stupid the post you just made was. If you are a law enforcement officer with one of the agencies involved in this case, I hope your boss has your ass.
Brad
************
So how is my posting stupid? I think you are one that is being unreasonable. The mentality of blame first then make the accusations fit the blame. For your information I am NOT in law enforcement. I am not a county officer nor am I with the city department. So my boss can’t fire me for what I know. How do I know what happened? HUMMMM
horse_feathers on September 01 at 12:16 p.m.
I’m writing in Alan Creach for Sheriff when I get my ballot.
bszottlinger on September 01 at 12:23 p.m.
Scoutster:
I am not a police apologist, by any means. One of the big things that struck me regarding the Zehm case was at the very least the huge jump to conclusions before all of the evidence was complied and studied. Sometimes this is typical where there is not independent oversight of the investigation from beginning to end.
I would just as soon the law enforcement agencies involved took the time necessary to conduct the type of investigation that is required in this case. I would hope that is what they are doing and would think they do not want a repeat of the Zehm case.
I know everyone does not share my views, and I know there are those that want answers now. I do not expect answers now but I do later. Keep in mind that the agencies involved here, since the Zehm case, must realize that there is a strong possibility that the case may be reviewed and scrutinized not only from the civil litigation standpoint, but also from a civil rights violation standpoint. I would hope they do not want to subject themselves to the liability and embarrassment involved in Zehm.
I understand we all have a right to know; the question is when should we know. I was only trying to point out that when done properly an investigation of this magnitude takes time there are a considerable amount of very important issues to deal with. Frustrating as it may be, withholding detail, most of the time in the end is the proper tact.
Brad
bszottlinger on September 01 at 12:28 p.m.
Nugget:
Thank you for the clarification. We can now all make an assessment as to the credibility of your statements.
Brad
Thoreau on September 01 at 12:29 p.m.
What a bunch of vigilantes here! If you people had your way, you’d serve as judge, jury, and executioner for this cop, regardeless of his guilt or innocence. Mob! You’d all feel better living in Salem, Massachussets in 1692.
spokanada on September 01 at 12:39 p.m.
Actually, we just want the police to do their job and quit killing spokanites.
We want the police to protect and serve and when they mess up we want a timely investigation.
We want to know the truth and we don’t want to be lied to.
Most importantly, we want the police to be held accountable
bszottlinger on September 01 at 12:54 p.m.
Sadbuttrue:
Yes, your right probably a heck of a vacation lying in the sun going over and over again in your mind whether or not you did the right thing. Thinking should I have waited, should I have tried for the gun? How do I explain to the kids? Am I going to be charged? Am I going to be sued? What if the investigators screw up? Should I get a lawyer? Will I lose the job I love? Do I even want this job? What will people think of me when this is over? How do I get the picture of his body lying there out of my mind? What did I say to people and how did I say it? How can I get rid of that death smell? Should I take a polygraph? Would it just be easier just to end my own life?
Yep! Sounds great to me.
Brad
v1grwil on September 01 at 12:54 p.m.
Thoreau:
Vigilantes!! What do you think just happened to Scott Creach. A cop is paid $50-70 thousand dollars to take that chance. That edge between life and death. Even if Creach wanted to hold him hostage deal with it, you don’t kill a guy, I might I am not a cop I don’t have that training. But when a trained cop kills a citizen like Creach it is the law of the jungle. The one who shoots first wins. The cop was judge, jury and executioner.
Scoutster on September 01 at 12:56 p.m.
Brad…
I wasn’t suggesting you were an apologist (not that there’s anything wrong with that!)…
I was just asking the folks who are defending the police procedure to defend this one piece of it…allowing one of the principals to wait a week to say anything.
What is the value of that? How does that make sense? It must have something to do with a police officer being a police officer, because nobody else is given that right. Why are they? I’m not asking rhetorically, I’m seriously asking someone who knows to tell us what the rationality of that is?
I don’t want to know “it’s in the union contract”. I don’t care. I’m asking WHY it’s a good idea for those who protect and serve to have PUT that in the contract, or wherever it is written that they can do this?
Thoreau on September 01 at 12:58 p.m.
v1grwil - I knew someone would call the cop the judge. jury, etc. My point is that NOBODY here knows what really happened. Investigators are taking way too long to release details, true. But all of you are speculating out of sheer anger. Welcome to the Salem Witch Trials, McCarthyism, etc……
v1grwil on September 01 at 1:04 p.m.
Brad:
I really thank you for your posts. I was feeling really upset this weekend, I knew the man, but you gave me a connection point and I appreciate that.
But I have to comment on your vacation description; I hope it was that bad, I hope it was worse. Scott will never, ever have a bad dream, bad day, business problems, watching grandkids grow, he will never ever do anything. All those years he worked and worked so he could provide for his retirement, all the labor so he could enjoy his last years was ripped away by a paid, trained, well armed police officer because the cop shot first and then gets to have his union ask and answer the questions as to the why.
greg
Bucky on September 01 at 1:11 p.m.
I have no idea what transpired that night, but the delay in the officer testimony is ridiculous. The “protocol” needs to be changed.
RaulBloodworth on September 01 at 1:21 p.m.
Socialized Police force.
GoViks on September 01 at 1:45 p.m.
Look, up this point I have been behind the concept of “wait and see”, we don’t know what happened so don’t speculate crowd (see my earlier posts). But this is ridiculous… He was allowed to go on his VACATION? I am sure it was because the Union wold have had a fit….but SO WHAT? Deal with the Union in the paper and press and let the the investigation begin immediately, prior scheduled vacation be damned.
Where this deputy should be is on paid administrative leave, not on a vacation. If you or I had been involved in this incident we would have been interviewed ASAP and we certainly would not have been allowed to use the lame*** excuse “but I have a vacation planned.
Even a reasonable, authority respecting, management type (which I am all of the above) would agree that this latest bit of information does not look good.
bszottlinger on September 01 at 2:57 p.m.
Scoutster:
My understanding comes from reviewing cases similar to this. Several studies were done by various psychologists that suggest that in order to get a reasoned statement from an officer they should be allowed a minimum of 48 hours to collect their thoughts and to a certain extent put the shooting trauma behind them. This of course would be considered by many to be preferential treatment and time to get the story straight. I do not know whether the 48 hours is a negotiated period in the union contract but the contract should be a matter of public record. Although some jurisdictions require the officer to submit an official report detailing the events, many do not because Garrity issues arise if the officer is forced to make a report. Because the case law is not settled regarding forcing the officer to make an official report, I would submit that it is better not to do so. Statements that the officer makes to other officers at the scene can in some circumstances be used in later prosecutions Garrity aside. If an officer is confronted with questioning immediately after the shooting, he like everyone else has a right to remain silent. I am not saying it always happens but generally, union representatives or a lawyer would recommend the officer invoke his Miranda rights if there is an attempt to question the officer before all the evidence is in.
In the standard run of the mill murder case (if there is such a thing) where the suspect is taken into custody at the scene or shortly there after although all of the evidence is not yet in the investigators should attempt to question the suspect as soon as possible especially if the suspect is a flight risk or a danger to the community. They may be able to obtain a statement from the suspect at that time or the suspect may invoke his Miranda rights. Once the suspect is booked into jail rest assured the chances of obtaining a statement are diminished. It would take forever to discuss the various nuances of this scenario. In many murder cases, although there is a good suspect law enforcement does not attempt to interview the suspect for weeks or months and sometimes years depending on how long it takes to gather all the evidence. There is a good reason for that, the more you know the better job you can do interrogating the suspect if you get the opportunity.
My position is, if the officer doesn’t represent a flight risk or danger to the community take your time do it right and put up with the wrath you will receive from the community. In the end, most of the community will realize you did the right thing.
If in the Creach case the circumstances were reversed, Pastor Creach would have had the same right to delay his questioning by immediately invoking his Miranda rights and waiting until he was ready to give a statement. Although you initially invoke your rights, you can withdraw those rights later. I doubt Pastor Creach given the circumstances as we know them, based on his stature in the community, would have been immediately arrested. He represented no flight risk or danger to the community that I am aware of and the issue would be a matter of possible justifiable, excusable, or negligent homicide not murder.
Vigrwil:
I understand and was just trying to offer both sides. This is a terribly tragic situation for all.
Brad
misjustice on September 01 at 3:23 p.m.
I can assure you, my assessment IS credible.
I’m very sorry Mr. Creach is dead. I’m very sorry his life was taken by an officer that apparently felt his life was being threatened. When it is all said & done, Mr. Creach and his family probably wish he had called the police. He would have been told it was an officer on the property & none of this would have happened to either of the victims.
Scoutster on September 01 at 3:28 p.m.
Brad…
So, if the information is better after 48 hours, why wouldn’t that be the professional standard for all shootings and all suspects and witnesses?
“Everybody go home, we’ll contact you in a day or two, when you have gotten over the trauma and can retell this terrible event less emotionally”.
Sounds like that would be good police work, to manage cases that way.
I’m not attacking you, its just I think that is absolute nonsense. It doesn’t pass the basic smell test to assume police brains work differently than the rest of ours.
Sadbuttrue on September 01 at 4:21 p.m.
“I doubt Pastor Creach given the circumstances as we know them, based on his stature in the community, would have been immediately arrested.”
yeah right. A guy can shoot and kill a cop and not get immediately arrested. I seriously doubt, in the entire historical annals of American Jurisprudence, where a cop killer was ever, anywhere NOT immediately arrested after killing a cop.
Police Union work rules do not apply to civilians, don’t you know?
bszottlinger on September 01 at 4:31 p.m.
Scoutster:
I am not advocating that officers be treated any differently than anyone else. However, it is what it is. There is a body of evidence based on many studies that indicates that victims and witnesses will recall important facts well after the incident took place this is especially true for traumatized victims. Agents will often get calls from witnesses or victims well after the fact stating “I just now remembered this” sometimes it is important sometimes not. When they are on the stand of course, the defense will ask “ Was your memory better at the time or three weeks later?” That scenario usually then involves a battle of the experts.
I realize I am not doing a very good job of explaining my position, but I do not know how else to explain it.
Let me try this, during an investigation an initial statement is taken from the victim or witness. Evidence may later come up that calls to question aspects of the statement (Not necessarily out of malice) so the parties have to be re-interviewed by the agent, perhaps several times until a precise picture is drawn. A victim or witness may be interviewed several times right up to trial. You would think that a witness/victim statement would be consistent throughout but they are not always, in most cases not because they are trying to hide something, rather because we are human. As an example; Airline hijack, initial statements are take from all of the passengers and the crew who go on their merry way as the investigation unfolds they may have to be re-interviewed several times. In the Creach case, there are witnesses, people heard things, and people saw things. Someone heard one shot someone heard three the investigators know how many shots were fired but people have different perceptions as to the facts. Who was right, we do not know do we, one or three. Some re-interviewing I am sure will have to done in this case even though initial statements were taken. Some of the officers arriving after the shooting may have to be interviewed two or three times. Can we not just wait for a little bit?
Brad
Scoutster on September 01 at 5:15 p.m.
Sure we can wait, Brad. The deputy can remember all the details in the future he can or wants to. Great.
But, it is illogical for there to be a bias to interview every principal ASAP except the police officer involved.
It alarms me that civil officials would sign a contract allowing this. Or that the police themselves wouldn’t be concerned about this.
This is wrong.
bszottlinger on September 01 at 6:20 p.m.
Scoutster:
If that is a contract clause, then it is binding. I have never negotiated a union contract but unless someone could convince me otherwise I wouldn’t set any time frame for officer involved investigations. My reason may differ from others but putting a time frame on any aspect of a criminal investigation seems a bit silly to me.
I watched the press conference the Sheriff gave on the tube and primarily he said the same things I have been trying to say. It appears to me that he doesn’t in any way want to be in the middle of another Zehm fiasco so he is trying to make sure this thing is handled correctly. He could have easily denied the officer taking vacation and I don’t think he would have had much of a problem from the standpoint of obtaining a coerced statement but he took the safe route and I think that is a good thing.
The officer is supposed to be interviewed Friday morning and even though he has initially agreed to give a statement. I think it’s best to wait and see if he does in fact provide a Mirandized statement.
Brad
zelda on September 01 at 6:46 p.m.
A journalism question, Addy, somewhat off-topic from this thread…
Why do the S-R and TV stations identify Mr. Creach as a “pastor” in headlines? I realize it’s shorter than “business owner” or “nurseryman,” but it does tend to ratchet up the emotion, i.e., a cop shooting a “man of God.”. Seems like he performed both occupations equally, but maybe this is the way his family wishes him to be remembered. Anyway, just curious as to how the S-R made its decision (I know you can’t speak for the TV stations).
Scoutster on September 01 at 8:27 p.m.
So, Brad, if I am accused of or witness a crime, would I be allowed to just say “I’m not gonna talk now”? Even if I was not exercising my right against self-incrimination, but I just wanted to “get home to watch the Seahawks game and I’ll tell you about it at my convenience next week”?
Would that be allowed? I would think it would be, because a union contract couldn’t contain anything inherently illegal, could it? I mean, immunity from a law for union members would require legislation, wouldn’t it?
bszottlinger on September 01 at 8:53 p.m.
Scoutster:
The short answer to your first question is yes if you are the suspect. Unless there is probable cause to arrest you. A witness gets a little more complex but most of the time you can’t force a witness to cooperate in an investigation. You can subpoena them before a grand jury and make them talk or go to jail for contempt but that takes time and they wouldn’t miss the game.
If you are a suspect and you say “I’m not gonna talk now” you are exercising your right to remain silent.
Brad
Scoutster on September 01 at 8:57 p.m.
Wow..that is very enlightening. I always thought if I might have information on a crime, I was obligated to answer questions about it (not giving up my 5th Amendment rights, of course).
Thanks…
bszottlinger on September 01 at 8:58 p.m.
Scoutster:
Second Question: Labor Law ain’t my forte.
Brad
bszottlinger on September 01 at 9:02 p.m.
Scoutster:
It depends on what you mean by obligated. Morally and ethically yes, legally perhaps not.
bszottlinger on September 01 at 9:15 p.m.
Scoutster:
As an example, certain professions are legally required to report child sexual abuse. However there is no legal requirement that I am aware of for JohnQ to report it. I suppose someone could make a case that a witness is obstructing justice if he doesn’t provide a statement to law enforcement. The standard line we used to get is “I saw no evil, I heard no evil.”, and then you have to be able to prove differently. There are some legal ramifications for withholding evidence of certain crimes but again you have to prove the evidence was knowingly withheld.
elhayeki on September 01 at 10:40 p.m.
What is the difference betweeen a police man and a criminal? A police man carries a gun and a badge that kills people. A criminal carries a gun and kills people. Cops are just as criminal as the criminal themselves. It becomes a part of their life. They think they are running and controlling the streets. They are taking the law into their own heads and just ending lives.
Cheezwhiz on September 01 at 11:51 p.m.
The Otto Zehm case and the Jay Olson case tell us that the police will not tell the truth or suffer any of the legal action that ordinary citizens have to endure. What makes anyone think the details will be true now? Why would Hinzel tell the truth? He might be prosecuted. Why would Ozzy tell the truth? The Sheriff’s dept. will be sued and will leave them looking bad. Why haven’t any other police killings or DUI’s been prosecuted? Why was Jay Olson acquitted? Why wasn’t Jay Olson charged with a Federal count of possessing a weapon in a bar? Why wasn’t the cop that killed Eagle Michael charged? He was a 15 year old deaf and mentally ill boy with a BB gun. Why was it OK to shoot two men armed with knives? On and on and on and on. When will the police be held accountable for their crimes? Hinzel was trespassing. That alone makes this a murder in the commission of a crime. I can legally walk through downtown Spokane with a handgun. I can point a gun at anyone I perceive as a threat, including a cop, until AFTER he is identified as a cop. Think Mr. Creach was given a chance to put his weapon down or was given any chance at all? I highly doubt it.
golding4 on September 02 at 8:43 p.m.
I was for giving the officer the benefit of doubt, I did not know that this officer decided to take a vacation before he tells his story. Something this important requires an insite as too what happened within hours, Scott’s wife was questioned! and other also but this officer just walks away without saying what happened. One thing that officer could have done instead of shooting Scott was hit the switch that turned the blue lights on. Scott would have backed off as soon as he knew it was an officer. my thoughts are; maybe some of these officers are so keyed up that pulling the trigger is their first thought. turning that blue light on was the proper thing to do (first)…I have heard that a Class Action Suit against the city should be in order, not for money but to keep this officer from working here any more (for shuting his mouth and hitting the road on a vacation) We don’t need officers like him, I am wondering how many Christians will sign a class action suit against the city, I will and I will seek the people to sign also. this is an opinion that is going to grow.
Sadbuttrue on September 03 at 9:02 a.m.
We are given lectures oozing with concern about the predicament of a cop if statements are taken too close to the critical incident, and arguments justifying Disneyland Deputy’s vacation because statements that are taken after at least a 2 day waiting period are more reliable. But these “principles” are only given effect for police fortunate enough to be operating under union work rules.
The rest of us, on the other hand, are interviewed IMMEDIATELY - within minutes or seconds - after a critical incident, and if we think of something later on from the quiet confines of our jail cell, well the prosecutor will forcefully argue to the jury that the lowlife defendant “he changed his story” and therefore is a liar. Others, who are critically injured and in intensive care will be interviewed while going in and out of a drug-induced haze and locked into our statements minutes after being badly injured.
The police defenders are arguing very strongly for a double standard to be applied to this cop.
travzmomma on September 06 at 12:29 a.m.
First of all there’s no way in hell I’d let the cops stop me from seeing my dying husband, considering it was a cop that killed him! I’d be like oh effin well take me to jail, then I’d proceed to ask them who the hell they think they are?!?? A crime scene hmm… what crime would that be? A man trying to protect his property, maybe that lived in fear of something bad happening? True we don’t know many details about mr. creach (or I don’t) But he was an older man for crying out loud. Whats the odds he had bad hearing and couldn’t understand the cop? There are so many different things that could have happened that only two people will truly know mr. creach and mr. Hirzel, however only one of them is still alive and clearly is not getting his story straight. Is mr. Hirzel fuzzy about what happened as certain situations happen so fast details are hard to recall, and if that’s the case why is he a cop? I get he is human too and we all make mistakes, but something seems so off about all of this! My second point is the fact of him being a liar? Could be, as liars also have shady details and change their stories a lot… Are they going to make him go to a professional that can profile him and see the truth? I highly doubt that one, as the police do not want to get an even worse name by finding out or already knowing this guy is ate up more then a soup sandwich.
As with the rest of you I have many questions too. One of the main one’s being did mr. Hirzel follow protocol and identify himself as a police officer or did he “hot dog it” so to speak by jumping the gun and assuming mr. creach was a prowler? There are way too many things that could have taken place. Maybe the cops were sick of dealing with this man and calls/complaints of people on his property and decided to take him out like they have done to others. I don’t know. Could have been a mistake, but I question that.
All I’m saying is if I were in the situation I’d want to get things squared away while it’s fresh in my mind not 10 days later. This is the whole reason I avoid the cops. Even when having to call them for help it seems they treat you like you did something wrong like you are wasting their time. Or how it is that the scum bags get away with so much but innocent people get busted and or set up only to find out they really were innocent! I’m not saying this applies to every cop, as it doesn’t. But there is a lot of shady crap that goes on. Give em a gun and badge to “serve and protect” not to act as if every one is below them and have done wrong… excuse me for rambling but it’s all just messed up. We can all sit here and complain about it, and still pay the taxes for these guys, but there are ways to get their attention, it’s just how to do it. Knowledge is power and so is people standing up for what is right. That is what’s wrong with our country as it stands. Too many complaints not enough actions to make a positive difference w/out violence and hatred and so on!
idahocity on September 07 at 10:59 a.m.
hopefully some good will come of this. i don’t know about citizen review boards and all that but i think we need to get to know our deputies and officers better.
I’m outraged by this and the other incidents that have happened over the last few years but imagine the police and deputies reading some of these posts. we don’t want to further this “us vs. them” mentality. we need to reach out community to police and police to community. we should have functions where we get to know each other and stop the dehumanization.
i’m all in favor of the sheriff as an elected official. it is one the great checks and balances built into our system.
UTWY32 on September 13 at 1:04 p.m.
Amazing how ignorant so many people are in this community.
Sad what happened to Creach, not sure if the deputy displayed proper use of force. Will be tough to truly ever know the facts
But I ask,
Why did Creach not drop the gun after a uniformed cop asked him to do so? Why didnt he get down on his knees long enough for the cop to realize the threat was gone? Creach approached a cop with a gun. I wouldnt approach anyone with a gun, especially a cop, without realizing I was taking on significant risk.
We wonder why our society is always so quick to blame, we rarely take responsibility on our own actions. had Creach listened to a reasonable order this would have never happened.
golding4 on November 20 at 11:36 p.m.
Who says that he wasn’t napping a little and Scott caught him off guard and maybe he woke, saw, grabbed gun, pointed, fired from car and yelled at the same time……..You say, I am just guessing, that’s right. and that’s all you can do also, We have read at least two different variations of the sheriff’s long delayed stories after his more important vacation. Another point, why did they put the car back in service, it was part of the crime scene and should have been tested to see where round was fired from, One story has that he was hitting Scott with a baton, craps, if he can get that close, he can surely disarm an old man without killing him, but I really believe he is trigger happy, and even shoots a womans dog while she is doing CPR on her husband, and she has to grieve for both her husband and her dog and she sues the CA. city for 3 million and the city settles with her, something less but the city knew that the shooter was in the wrong…..and than he kills a man with a baton strangle hold…..Do you think the man is still fighting when he has turned all blue and limp…..do you make sure the man is dead before you let go of the strangle hold. I know that the police out there don’t want to hear my opinion, they just want the public to hear theirs only….I think this man should go to trail and let his pears (twelve of them) hear the whole case. We truly don’t need blood hungry sheriffs working for us in this town.
I am with the Paster’s son all the way in a righteous fight to remove this person from our rolls and put him on trial.
Any normal person, sheriff or not, should be on their knees, yelling out, “Oh God, what have I done??????” but no, he goes on vacation to have fun, Hey little sheriff, did you have fun on vacation?
I state this e-mail as my opinion, I still have that, right!!!! yes…
I’m angry, Scott was a great man.