Spokane7
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September 6, 2010 in City
Deputy says he hit pastor with baton
Son says police asked him not to reveal detail
The deputy who shot and killed a Spokane Valley pastor on Aug. 25 told investigators that he used a baton on Wayne Scott Creach and repeatedly ordered him to drop his gun before firing his own pistol, Spokane County Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich confirmed Sunday.
Alan Creach, son of Scott Creach, said Sunday that investigators told him about Deputy Brian Hirzel’s statement that he’d struck his father once with a baton, but that investigators had asked him not to disclose that detail to the media. A news release issued Friday by the Spokane Police Department made no mention of the baton.
Creach said his father’s autopsy, however, showed no evidence of a baton strike to his leg, “although the deputy claimed he did strike at my father” there. Creach said a Spokane Police Department detective investigating the incident shared the autopsy information with him.
The detail first was reported Sunday on KXLY and attributed only to “law enforcement sources.” Knezovich confirmed that Hirzel described an incident involving repeated verbal warnings and a baton strike before he drew his weapon and fired it one time, striking Creach in the chest.
Creach, a longtime pastor and owner of the Plant Farm, 14208 E. Fourth Ave., had gone outside with his pistol to check on something in the parking lot. Hirzel was parked there in an unmarked car, in response to a call from a neighboring landowner about a prowling in the area.
The pastor’s death and the subsequent handling of the investigation – including Knezovich’s decision to let Hirzel continue on a planned weeklong vacation before conducting a full interview – have drawn intense public scrutiny and criticism.
Alan Creach said his father often confronted people trespassing on his property, gun in hand.
“He’s apprehended thieves and a lot of them, but in all of those events, he never shot anybody, ever,” Creach said. He said police had responded to the property after those incidents, so “there’s no excuse that they didn’t know he’d be on his property with his weapon.”
He added, “I think what they’re trying to do is portray him as a man who was out of control.”
Details of the confrontation between Creach and Hirzel have been scarce.
Alan Creach said Sunday he believes the information is being released “bit by bit,” and wishes investigators would “just lay the whole thing out … and allow us as a community to take a look at all the evidence.”
The night of the shooting, Hirzel, a deputy with the Spokane County Sheriff’s Office assigned to the Spokane Valley Police Department, had parked his unmarked cruiser in the lot at the Plant Farm.
He told investigators he saw a shirtless man armed with a pistol approaching from about 30 feet away. Hirzel said Creach ignored his commands to drop the gun and came within two feet of his car, according to the KXLY report. That was when Hirzel got out, continued ordering Creach to drop the gun, and struck Creach with a baton, Hirzel said, according to KXLY. At that point, Creach began to point his gun at Hirzel and Hirzel fired, the deputy said.
Knezovich said those details corresponded with his knowledge of the investigation.
He said he did not know why the information about the baton had not been released and didn’t consider it sensitive to the investigation. He emphasized that the Sheriff’s Office is not conducting the shooting investigation or handling the release of information to either the public or the family.
The Spokane Police Department is doing so as part of an agreement between the agencies to investigate officer-involved shootings. Attempts to reach Spokane police representatives Sunday were unsuccessful.
“I think there’s a misperception out there that the Sheriff’s Office is in charge of the investigation and the information being released,” Knezovich said. “We’re not in charge of that.”
Knezovich did approve allowing Hirzel to continue with a planned vacation before giving a full interview. Hirzel gave a basic “tactical” interview after the shooting. Knezovich has said he approved the vacation to avoid appearing to coerce Hirzel and taint the longer interview.
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addyh on September 06 at 9:26 a.m.
Sorry the comments weren’t enabled - operator error on my part.
ShannonSullivan on September 06 at 9:44 a.m.
Addy; has anyone ever asked the question……Was the pastor hard of hearing? If so did he have his hearing aids in?
I would think at 70 plus years of age, maybe his hearing was not that good.
Posters: DO NOT MISCONSTURE that I am defending anyone. I am just as outraged as all of you, but I am still praying for all families involved, and hoping that we as citizens get the WHOLE STORY!!!!
eagleproducer on September 06 at 9:58 a.m.
This tragedy continues to get worse and worse.
Why is Ozzie saying anything when his agency isn’t the one investigating this incident?
Where is Anne Kirkpatrick?
Why can’t a trained peace officer, who was within baton striking distance of Mr. Creach, simply have disarmed him? It doesn’t make sense to hit him with a baton, back up, warm him to drop the weapon, again, and then shoot him at nearly point blank range.
In the immortal words of one Judge Judith Scheindler: “If it doesn’t make sense it’s probably not true.”
bszottlinger on September 06 at 10:04 a.m.
Supraman255:
You may well be correct that a call to 911 may have prevented this tragedy. However that did not happen and attempting to attach some sort of blame to anyone for not making that call serves only to fuel the flames of discontent. There are some of us posting here that have tried to provide perspective and balance to the dialog, which isn’t easy to do given the outrage. It becomes more difficult when obvious missteps become a part of the public record. Whether the press leaks are coming from union representatives, organization leaders, or those close to the investigation makes no difference. Those leaks demonstrate, to me at least, an inability on the part of the agencies involved to adequately handle one of the more important aspects of this case and that is balancing the publics right to know with the need to withhold critical investigative information. There were only two people in the immediate area of the shooting, and one is gone. We all know that, there is no need to have it continually pointed out. The public has a right to expect that a competent investigation is conducted, and law enforcement has a duty to conduct the same. In my mind, if it is in fact true, that a Spokane Police Department Detective provided specific detail of a post mortem examination that could be used later in the investigative process to a family member, then that is not competent. If the Sheriff, someone I have been trying to support here, was contacted late Sunday evening by the SR after the KXLY story was correctly quoted as stating “ he did not know why the information about the baton had not been released, and he didn’t consider it sensitive to the investigation.” Then the sheriff needs to explain why he does not feel that a baton strike to Mr. Creach’s leg area in an effort to put Mr. Creach to the ground, and a subsequent finding at autopsy that there were no injuries consistent with the officers statement is not “sensitive to the investigation”.
If the officer involved investigative function in Spokane County was set up like it is in other jurisdictions throughout the country including other jurisdictions in Washington State wherein the county prosecutor is the lead agency and is involved in the case from beginning to end then all press releases could be referred to the prosecutor and the onus for proper media management would fall with him/her. Something I would suspect the Sheriff, the chief, and the head of the WSP would love to see. Of course in some circles there is little confidence in the current Spokane County Prosecutor but cases like this provide the opportunity for the prosecutor to regain that trust.
Brad Szottlinger
DavidBray on September 06 at 10:14 a.m.
Thank you Mr. Szottlinger. You asked the right questions without condemnation. Now, will we get sensible answers to those sensible and insightful questions you’ve asked?
Diana on September 06 at 10:16 a.m.
A young, strapping deputy uses his baton on an elderly man and it DIDN’t disable him?
eagleproducer on September 06 at 10:16 a.m.
Addy: Why is the SR shutting down commentary on each and every thread concerning the Creach story, including Doug Clark’s column? I would probably accept your explanation of “operator error” as truthful under normal circumstances but I think the behavior of the Spokesman in regards to public commentary on this story points in a different direction.
worthasecondlook on September 06 at 10:21 a.m.
Which one of this brave officer’s criticizers will step up and take his job or work beside him? Me? Don’t have the stomach for it so I am very grateful to him even though he was called to a bad situation where there was a miscommunication with an armed property owner. It is tragic but I hope he continues to serve and protect as we need all the protection from brave people that we can get.
Pat O'Leary on September 06 at 10:23 a.m.
Although this investigation is supposedly being run by the SPD, the sheriff seems to be the one in charge. This in no way is an arms-length investigation! From the very beginning Ozzie has been running the whole show. If the SPD is in charge it should have been their call on the vacation for the shooter….not his.
Another ridiculous farce. A baton blow that leaves no apparent damage. How convenient. Nothing is ever going to come of this. They just as well shut it down now. It’s just another whitewash by the “independent” agencies involved. By the way, where in the hell is that wonderous prosecutor, Steve Tucker? Has he no interest in this case? I guess it really doesn’t matter, he would just find a way to exonerate no matter who’s at fault.
addyh on September 06 at 10:24 a.m.
Don’t read anything nefarious into it spoketucky - we shut down comments on these threads manually each night because we don’t have people monitoring them overnight. Some topics tend to go dramatically off the rails in the wee hours; I suspect alcohol is involved. In any event, last night I shut down comments on the previous version at about midnight (see that version, which is still on the site), just about the time this version rolled over from our print production.
Spokane_Citizen on September 06 at 10:24 a.m.
Well….the Sheriff managed to save Spokane County the cost of paying for the deputy’s vacation, so we’ve still got that going for us!
This entire investigation simply stinks to high heaven. The truth is so distasteful that it’s being fed out bit by bit to mitigate the very justifiable community outrage. Not only is this charade nothing more than ‘damage control’, but it’s not even very skillful in that respect.
Remind me never to call the county or city police if I suspect my property is being prowled or burgled…..it would be MUCH safer to just deal with the perpetrator myself.
eagleproducer on September 06 at 10:38 a.m.
This is why we shouldn’t elect sheriffs like in 1800’s of Western movie mythology and actually hire competent, professional law enforcement administrators.
The officer’s account makes no sense and as Judge Judy likes to say, when something doesn’t make sense, it’s probably not true.
Let’s go through the timeline of the incident as reported and detailed by Hirzel. Within 10 seconds of calling in a “Code Six” Hirzel calls in “Shots fired” and requests medical assistance for the person he just shot. When did the repeated calls for Creach to drop the weapon and subsequent blow with the baton occur, before or after the first call from Hirzel?
How many people believe a cop is going to let a person clearly brandishing a weapon approach to within two feet of their car (after being told repeatedly to stop) and not shoot before he reaches the car. Instead, he’s going to let him get all the way to his car, get involved in a close hand-to-hand situation when the “suspect” already has a weapon drawn, hit him with a baton, tell him to drop the weapon again, AND THEN AND ONLY THEN DRAW HIS SERVICE WEAPON AND KILL CREACH?
For crying out loud, Otto Zehm was murdered because an officer (also from California) deemed a plastic soda jug threatening, but Hirzel went to this sort of effort, one that would clearly go against both his training, common sense, and survival instincts to avoid shooting him? C’mon.
I hope people notice that no one has confirmed whether or not Hirzel identified himself as a police officer while warning Creach to drop his weapon. Does anyone else find that omission troubling?
eagleproducer on September 06 at 10:58 a.m.
Addy: You’ve fielded numerous complaints from customers about threads not carrying over when stories are updated or whatever it is that you use for a latest excuse, why not monitor that more and the commentary less?
I’ve seen plenty of libelous, defamatory and other outrageously egregious posts stand on these boards permanently so I question your commitment to your own standards except when they serve the SR’s aims of controlling information or image of a responsible actor in this tragedy. I’ve visited other local news websites and they don’t close commentary on stories and I, like others, believe allowing people that type of outlet is better than permitting it to stew and fester until frustration becomes outright rage. Would you rather have those whose online bravado might be enhanced with alcohol at home pecking out their frustrations or storming the Bastille?
misjustice on September 06 at 11:10 a.m.
I, too, (as stated repeatedly on other threads) have a problem with the timeline; especially with the recently released information. 2 minutes and 10 seconds is not a very long span of time. For Deputy Vegas to have done all he claims in that short amount of time does not ring true. Neither does the claimed proximity of Mr. Creach to Deputy Vegas prior to the Deputy taking any defensive action.
spoketucky referenced Judge Judy and I’d like to add another of her truisms; Don’t pee on my leg and try to tell me it’s raining.
Pat O'Leary on September 06 at 11:13 a.m.
Addy Hatch….Any way you cut it, this is censorship. Apparently those in charge are afraid something nasty might be said in the wee small hours. However, it seems to me that you usually shut things down when the subject is controversial or difficult for some of the staid readers, and also, the newspaper staff, to relate to.
Ed Byrnes on September 06 at 11:20 a.m.
The trickling in of contradictory press releases confirms the basic fact that Spokane’s law enforcement leaders are not trustworthy. We have a situation in our community where: (1) Law enforcement officers routinely terrorize the citizens; (2) Law enforcement leaders with the collusion of municipal leaders obfuscate and fabricate information and call it an investigation; (3) Us average and law abiding citizens, sans a handful of law enforcement sycophants, view our law enforcement community with warranted fear, mistrust and contempt.
It is time for transparency in law enforcement, as Alan Creach said, to “allow us as a community to take a look at all the evidence.”
Nothing short of direct citizen review of any and all incidents when any law enforcement officer or deputy applies lethal force against one of our fellow citizens will heal this divide in our community. Our law enforcement and civic leaders have consistently proven their unwillingness or inability to effectively review police violence so us citizens must take it upon ourselves. We need to band together and get a citizen review initiative on the ballot coordinated with consistent protests in front of the offices of our municipal leaders.
In closing I paraphrase what law enforcement and their sycophants say “If you have nothing to hide then why not let us look?” It is beyond time for citizens to look at what is done in the name of our protection by an increasingly violent syndicate.
hornyjuggalo on September 06 at 11:21 a.m.
Approaching from about 30 feet on his Hoveround SCOOTER?!?!
eagleproducer on September 06 at 11:34 a.m.
hornyjuggalo: I know several 74 year old men who’d still whoop your arse.
addyh on September 06 at 11:43 a.m.
Spoketucky, I have no intention of spending any more of my holiday debating this with you. I and others have explained numerous times why there are multiple versions of the same story. If you see defamatory or obscene comments on other stories, by all means help us monitor them by flagging them as inappropriate.
ericdx on September 06 at 12:20 p.m.
If he struck a 74 year old man in the leg,then shot him in the chest, it was only because he was standing over him. You show me a 74 year old man that will be standing after an officer takes him down with a baton strike to the leg. The leg would have been broken. There is a lot of BS here.
spokanecougar on September 06 at 12:31 p.m.
So not only did this idiot deputy murder an innocent man in cold blood he tried to beat a 74 year old man first. Nice.
Please continue with your cover-up now crazy Sheriff Knezovich.
jddavis on September 06 at 1:07 p.m.
The difference between truth and fiction is that fiction has to be believable.
oink on September 06 at 1:26 p.m.
Isn’t using a baton on a man armed with a gun akin to bringing a knife to a gun fight.
But then officer Disneyland / Vegas is a gamblin man. He must have been lucky in Vegas or when he started losin he would have used his gun.
The Creach family must be in tears just getting bits and pieces of this STORY. And probabaly now know they will never get the thuth or know why Scott had to die.
THANK you Spokane Police Guild
THANK you OZZIE
THANK you Mary
THANK you Anne
AND DAMN YOU OFFICER HOLLYWOOD
bszottlinger on September 06 at 1:37 p.m.
Addy Hatch:
First of all thank you for spending your holiday here, trying to deal with us, whatever we are, and missing all the good labor day sales.
You have some pull around there, do you suppose you could have someone find out who the investigators assigned from each agency are or is it super secret? It’s a holiday I know but it looks like the Sheriff took a call on Sunday and maybe you guys could catch up to KXLY on breaking something interesting. :)
Brad
soccermomsusie on September 06 at 1:49 p.m.
I know that the deputy did wrong in this. Whatever punishment the Spokesman-Review decides for him should be given.
Now, if the pastor had been of a different color, had been a druggy, had been a liberal, a Muslim Imam or only spoke Mexican, and he had a history of brandishing a pistol at the drop of a hat, then for sure I would say that the deputy was not at fault, and so would all of the previous posters. But that isn’t the case is it?
I am waiting for Doug Clark to lead the charge again! I think he can do this without making Ozzie mad. He’s that good!
Hey, where was that church where you have to bring a gun? Was that in Spokane? If so, I am changing religions. I am tired of my sissy pastor always talking about what a nonviolent guy Jesus was. Like I said before, right now Jesus and Pastor Creach are sitting in heaven, shooting Satan in the butt with glocks or AK-47s.
HEAR OUR VOICE!!!!
alltheplants on September 06 at 1:53 p.m.
This rag is owned by the man. Google Larry Shook, Americas’ most dangerous cop. I have lived a lot of places. This town reeks of blatant corruption worse than any place I’ve ever lived. The few richest people In this community are robbing the rest of us blind. We live under the oppression of tyrannical fascism, and its time to do something about it.
spokanecougar on September 06 at 1:56 p.m.
Holy cow….has someone called social services to have soccermomsusie’s kids taken away? WOW, she is clearly crazy, drunk, stupid, ignorant or just a combination of all of them. Seriously, you are getting more and more crazy with your statements and seriously if you have children in your house someone needs to do something to have them taken away from this crazy, crazy woman as there is no way kids should be living with this woman or should she be allowed anywhere near kids.
misjustice on September 06 at 2:07 p.m.
spokanecougar; soccermom is a satirist, using the extreme to make a point. Think of her posts as being in the realm of writing done by The Onion or Andy Borowitz.
GaryP on September 06 at 2:10 p.m.
You can’t point a gun at someone just because they are on your property. You can not point first and ask questions later. Like it or not, the fact is if you point a gun at a police officer/deputy you will get shot. The pastor had an obligation to know more before pointing the gun. If I point a gun at teenagers drinking beer on my property, it is assault with a deadly weapon and I would prob be charged. You can point a gun if your LIFE is threatened. Not for a possible trespasser on your property. Once again, look it up. Before you idiots blast me and pretend you know everything based on this paper, look it up!
spokanecougar on September 06 at 2:14 p.m.
misjustice, I use to think that also, but not anymore since all her posts are the same. They are all spouting the same hate and nonsense and HEAR OUR VOICE craziness. I would say she is just joking around if it was a few of her posts like this….but its not, its every single one and she even does it in topics where it has nothing to do with politics and nobody has mentioned anything about politics. She just is flat out crazy and a walking, talking shining example of whats wrong with the tea baggers.
soccermomsusie on September 06 at 2:14 p.m.
Spokane Cougar, I can read between the lines. I think you are disagreeing with me.
As a peace offering, I am willing to babysit your kids some time. I have NRA coloring books and all the lighter colored crayons. My kids used to enjoy the Fisher-Price L’il Bartender set I put together for them. They are too old for that now, but maybe your kids would like to learn the proper way to make a martini. Shaken or stirred, it’s all the same because I don’t let them use real alcohol. That’s too expensive.
If I do babysit, your kids will say the pledge - and I don’t let anyone skip the “under God” part either.
HEAR OUR VOICE!!!!
soccermomsusie on September 06 at 2:17 p.m.
All the plants - Who is Google “Larry” Shook?
soccermomsusie on September 06 at 2:18 p.m.
Oh yes,
HEAR OUR VOICE!!!
misjustice on September 06 at 2:30 p.m.
@ spokanecougar; Following her last post [ Fisher-Price Toddler Bartender Set ] I’d say that Crazy is also an option.
alltheplants on September 06 at 2:36 p.m.
@Gary p….I don’t believe he had to point a gun at the officer in order to be shot, and you certainly do not know that he did.The propaganda these cops are fed causes them to be very jumpy. furthermore, it is their method of operation to lie. I believe it was councilman Bob Apple that said something like, the first thing we do when something goes wrong is lie, and then we try to figure out a way to cover it up.
soccermomsusie on September 06 at 2:47 p.m.
Allthepants, I think I remember Bob Apple saying this too. But, I think you took it out of context. When he said, “The first thing we do when something goes wrong is lie, and then we try to figure out a way to cover it up,” I think he was using it as a campaign slogan.
HEAR OUR VOICE!!!
eagleproducer on September 06 at 2:47 p.m.
I agree with misjustice that soccermom’s rants are meant to be satirical. That doesn’t mean I’d let her watch kids in my charge.
J_Bruce_Mitchel on September 06 at 2:51 p.m.
Wait … you have the time to hit someone with your baton, and then you put your baton away and then draw your gun and shot all in a matter of a few seconds? You were close enough to hit him with the baton but still felt threatened that he had a gun… I know if I had a gun in my hand and any intentions to shot someone I would not stand and wait to be hit with a baton…
But there were no marks or a bruise on The Pastors leg when the coroner writes the report that would have shown he was hit by something that hard.
And the officer has had how many days on vacation to think this over and replay it in his mind before he makes any statement. And lets see …. No other witness
What ever happen to just saying mistakes were made is this something that has been removed from all Police manuals used in Spokane. Why not just tell the truth you wet your pants and shot your gun in total fear for your life.
eagleproducer on September 06 at 2:53 p.m.
Addy: I’d accept your rationale if the threads were re-opened once someone was available to “monitor” them. But they haven’t been.
It’s okay to ignore your customers. They’ll just go elsewhere where their requests to improve service aren’t met with being treated like irksome meddlers.
Cheezwhiz on September 06 at 2:56 p.m.
If police would actually show up to investigate crime, calling 911 would be an option. It’s not. They have time to show up to give out tickets for a traffic accident, but not for prowlers, burglaries, or any other non violent crime. Real men will protect their property that they have worked hard to get and won’t let a common thief take it without a fight. They won’t just lay down and let someone who is too lazy to work, run off with the fruits of their labor. Here is just one story and it isn’t mine. http://spokane.craigslist.org/rnr/1939659293.html . Investigating these kinds of crimes leads to more and bigger crimes. Just one arrest can stop hundreds of crimes. When cops show up 7 hours later to check out a prowler call, and not to investigate, it doesn’t help anyone. It leads to honest men getting murdered by police and their character is called into question for doing what any man would do. I will patrol and protect what I have earned. What happens when I come around the corner and am face to face with a cop? If he looks jumpy, what should I do? Should I assume he will give me a chance to put my weapon down and trust that I won’t twitch in a manner that makes him think he is in imminent danger? Suggestions? My assumption is that it’s me or him, at this point.
Scoutster on September 06 at 2:57 p.m.
soccermomsusie rocks.
LISTEN FOR MY WHINE!
bszottlinger on September 06 at 3:22 p.m.
Soccermomsusie is Doug Clark
OBSERVE MY PERSEVERANCE
zelda on September 06 at 3:47 p.m.
I’m finding the overlap of jurisdictions to be enormously confusing. The killing committed by a deputy sheriff who works on contract as a Spokane Valley cop is being investigated by the SPD. Early on there was some mention of the WSP investigating as well, but I haven’t heard any more about this. Maybe that was just a reference to the state crime lab.
Does anyone know if investigators — whomever they may be — are under any legal obligation to provide information to the Creach family? They may feel a moral obligation but if Allan Creach passes along to reporters what investigators tell him and the negative reactions continue, maybe the source(s) will dry up. Or maybe investigators are using these interview revelations to gauge public reaction.
Heck, I’ve been watching “Rubicon,” so everything looks like a ruse or a red herring to me.
Ed Byrnes on September 06 at 3:50 p.m.
Let’s stay focused here. We are not each others enemies, our enemies are those in local public office who ignore our plight and their minions who are terrorizing us under the banner of law.
It is clear from this thread and many others that I have read and participated in that us citizens of Spokane city and county are fed up with being terrorized by uniformed thugs who are protected by what is increasingly appearing to be a criminal syndicate.
It is time to take our umbrage to the streets in front of our civic and law enforcement leaders’ offices and to the ballot box with an initiative demanding citizen oversight of our law enforcement agencies and officers.
Let us fight our clear and actual enemies.
misjustice on September 06 at 4:05 p.m.
First: Where is my posting? I was the first to post after this story was put on the blog list. I’m very tired of being censored by this paper when I’ve not said anything wrong. You say you shut it (the blog) down at night. Well, this morning my comments were gone… . again!!! And you say your aren’t censoring anything???? Ha
Second: Did you not read the article & statements made by Mr. Creach’s son? He stated his father had a history on holding people at gunpoint that was found on his property. AND that the police knew this. If this is true, why wasn’t the man arrested for kidnapping? Many stories on both sides.
((and he had a history of brandishing a pistol at the drop of a hat, then for sure I would say that the deputy was not at fault,))
Shylock13 on September 06 at 4:12 p.m.
The account of the incident given by Deputy Brian Hirzel is impossible for any reasonable person to believe. First, he claims to have gotten out of his vehicle to confront Reverend Creach and to have hit him in a leg with his baton. Questions: (1) Was the Deputy in uniform? If not, why not?; (2) Did he have the baton in one hand and his gun in another? If so, which item was in which hand?; (3) If he got out of his vehicle with his baton drawn and not his gun, why did he do so, facing an old man with a gun?; (4) If the Deputy is competent with a baton, why did his blow not take down Reverend Creach?; (5) If the Deputy hit the Reverend with his baton, why did the autopsy fail to reveal it? Does not any baton hit leave at least a large bruise?
Then he claims to have shot Reverend Creach with one round. Questions: (1) If the Deputy was in uniform when he exited his vehicle, is it reasonable to suppose that the Reverend did not recognize that?; (2) Did the Deputy, in or out of uniform, identify himself as a law officer?; (3) If the Deputy did so identify himself, why did he find it necessary to use a baton on the Reverend (if he did use it)?; (4) If the Deputy did not so identify himself, why not?; (5) If the Deputy was close enough to hit Reverend Creach with his baton, was he not close enough to grab the gun the Reverend held?
Finally, the Deputy provides a “timeline” that is highly suspect. He calls in a “Code 6” and ten seconds later calls in “Shots fired”! Questions: (1) When, precisely did he call in “Code 6”? When he saw the Reverend approaching his vehicle? Before or after he told the Reverend to stop? Before or after he got out of his car? Before or after he used his baton (if he did) on the Reverend? Before or after he drew his weapon? Before or after he used his weapon?; (2) Did the Deputy need to be in his vehicle to make those calls? If so, how could there possibly be only a ten second gap between them, unless he remained in his car (which would suggest that he called both in after the fact)? If not, in which hand did he hold a communication device—the one with the baton or the one with the gun?
Or did he not need a communication device outside of his vehicle?; (3) Has anyone timed out what the Deputy says occurred? If so, what was the result? If not, why not?
These questions, any others like them, must be answered.
As others have indicated, the citizens of Spokane (city and county) have lost confidence in the law enforcement agencies, BUT not in most of the law officers.
Also, as others have suggested, a Civilian Review Board to deal with cases such as this one is absolutely necessary. Let’s put an initiative or referendum or whatever it is called on a ballot and let’s let the citizens vote on such a Board.
bszottlinger on September 06 at 4:17 p.m.
Zelda:
I am not aware of any legal obligation the investigators have to tell the family anything regarding the autopsy. The ME does however have a legal obligation to determine the manner and cause of death and document it in a death certificate. However, the ME is not required as a matter of course to provide the autopsy report to the family. The police will have attended the autopsy and have the report. Generally the Autopsy report is made public once the litigation starts. Remember the ME is involved in this investigation as well. He/she has to determine the manner of death (accident, suicide, homicide) The ME caused a big furor in the law enforcement community when, she called the Zehm death a homicide. The ME has to wait until all the evidence comes in to make that call and then be able to justify it.
Brad
zelda on September 06 at 4:28 p.m.
Thanks, Brad. Just wondered if there is some sort of victim’s advocate who plays a role. Probably too early in the process. As you pointed out, there are lots of other players who step in once an incident moves to litigation.
I sure hope the Creach family has legal counsel to help them find their way through this maze.
Ed Byrnes on September 06 at 4:33 p.m.
Mr. Bear,
Thank you for raising your excellent time line questions, which are similar to those that I have had. There are too many events condensed into a short time frame for the story as it is being presented to have much credibility.
I regret that I have painted our local law enforcement officers with too broad of a brush, this is a result of my frustration at the absolute silence that our best officers have repeatedly maintained when incidents of police violence, or even smaller issues like the Sgt. Thoma DUI, arise. It is becoming increasingly difficult for me as a citizen to discern the good guys from the bad guys but that does not justify my broad brush strokes.
I am grateful for your support of a direct citizen review process. I worked directly with local law enforcement as a US Dept of Justice consultant in another jurisdiction where such procedures were in place and it really enhanced community relations and therefore community oriented policing and community prosecution efforts.
If Ms. Sullivan is the same one who led a ballot initiative in Spokane a few years ago I am hoping that she can offer us some insights on this process at the local level.
I love our Spokane community and offer my ideas, albeit emotionally charged at times, toward the end of healing this terrible divide we are living with now.
Ed Byrnes
scottm on September 06 at 4:35 p.m.
Gramma,
No one censored or deleted your comment on yesterday’s version of this story. It’s still there. Yesterday’s version can be found right here. http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/05/deputy-says-he-struck-pastor-baton/
Take a deep breath….
Scott
suzieQ on September 06 at 5:02 p.m.
This whole tragic incident could have been avoidable many different ways, but the most obvious way to me would be when someone calls in for more police presence in an area of crime they shouldnt send out an undercover car, but one that is cleary marked so as to deter crimes from being commited. Mr. Creach would have gone out, seen the cleary marked police car, and probably would have thanked the cop instead of feeling as though there was yet again another threat to his hard earned property. Ive never understood the concept of using unmarked patrol cars, other than for generating more revenue for the dept. by handing out tickets for minor traffic violations. I see more and more unmarked cars, and less of the marked patrols. I would love to know what other types of crimes the unmarked ones actually help stop or apprehend the criminals. How does the slogan “to serve & protect” carry any meaning to us citizens if the police are hiding from us? How can they serve us when we dont even know where they are? Deepest sympathy to the Creach family.
ChefGus/ John Olsen on September 06 at 6:19 p.m.
Real men will protect their property that they have worked hard to get and won’t let a common thief take it without a fight
:”real men” don’t do any such thing… “property is property” it is NOT a life or death threat” ….. the Only reason for point a .45 Cal ( stupid weapon) at someone is to Kill them… Kill them… and the person on the other end does not Know you have Not jacked a round into the chamber…. recently or earlier… a weapon pointed at me… will result ( if i am facile and quick enough from my training) in Your death..Not mine… don’t play “cowboy” and come at me thinking your might scare me… I Do not Scare… and I Do Not Point a Loaded weapon At someone unless I am Going to Kill them.. Period.. Period….
My view after two weeks is this “Pastor, vicar of Christ” was locked and loaded… ( MLK would not approve, nor would my Lord and Savior approve)…. mixed metaphor here… and My view this evening is the Pastor pointed his Piece at the the Gendarme and the Gendarme did his job….. John ( rock/paper/scissors) the ..45 Cal weapon as in Star Wars Bar scene “trumps” a Machete’ john olsen Donde’ esta el Jefe Anne???? she is the person who should be on point her and is “hiding” Wienie Wienie Wienie… Anne.. “)) “feed them their own words and they will not be able to swallow” Mark Twain/ Tim Russert… :))
papalatte on September 06 at 6:37 p.m.
If the officer was close enough to hit him in the leg Why didn’t he hit his hand and cause him to drop the gun. If you are close enough to hit a leg you should be able to hit a hand. Just saying.
If I lived any where in Spokane County I sure would be scared to come in contact with any law enforcement officer
liarsinnews on September 06 at 6:57 p.m.
The timing of the tragedy, measured in seconds, dictates to me the untruth when telling the story.
D Statler on September 06 at 7:56 p.m.
I just wonder what would be writen if it had been the pastor that shot the trespassing cop that tried to attack him with a stick! It is obvious that officer VEGAS failed to identify himself. Don’t even think the Pastor would have proceeded if he knew who he was dealing with. Furthermore, why was Mrs. Creach kept from spending her last moments with her husband? I am so disappointed with our law officers I can’t even look them in the eye anymore. They are dangerous and should be disarmed.I am surprised the Pastor wasn’t tasered too.This is another pattern that we are seeing in Spokane. Might have used up all their tasers on unsuspecting COWS!
monkeyman on September 06 at 8:09 p.m.
This gives me hope of sorts. Baton used, but not effectively, against an old man?!! Finally a policeman I might be able to wrestle to the ground, if only he doesn’t shoot me first.
Perhaps I should go ahead a buy that bulletproof vest I have been thinking about. It will help against other random crazies going postal as well…
monkeyman on September 06 at 8:17 p.m.
“Alan Creach said his father often confronted people trespassing on his property, gun in hand.”
…Not a good idea in general I think. Perhaps he should have carried a baton himself.
If one follows “Protect-yourself” crowd, then everybody will end up with assault rifles. I might then start looking for a bazooka to keep myself “safe”.
spokesfolk on September 06 at 8:24 p.m.
Boy is law enforcement doing a crummy job of PR.
This paper too.
GaryP on September 06 at 8:55 p.m.
@allthepants-propaganda causes cops to be jumpy? It think is all the deaths and people trying to kill them that causes them to be “jumpy”.
dave504 on September 06 at 10:02 p.m.
Wow, in Canada anybody walking up to a police officer pistol in hand is shot first, questions are asked later. There wouldn’t be any discussion or warnings. I’m surprised by the number of commentors here questioning the officer’s actions. I guess the U.S. has more liberals than I thought.
misjustice on September 07 at 9:14 a.m.
A discussion about this homicide and police procedures, between my partner and myself, produced many questions.
If the officer truly struck Mr. Creach on the leg as he stated, why did the officer choose the leg? Think about the motion required to strike in a down wards trajectory; all while Mr. Creach is (allegedly) holding a weapon. A down wards motion would seem to put the officer in a position where he’d be MORE vulnerable to attack, a baton strike could cause someone holding a weapon to discharge it as the strike would likely cause intense pain. Additionally, that angle would likely leave the officer’s head/torso in proximate range level to the alleged weapon held by Mr. Creach.
It doesn’t make sense. Why would an officer, in fear of his safety, take an action which would, potentially, make him more vulnerable to attack? Why not strike the arm holding the weapon? Or the shoulder? Either of these strikes would keep the officer’s body in a less vulnerable position.
At any rate, the officer’s “admission” of a baton strike to the leg doesn’t ring true, doesn’t seem likely, and raises more questions than it answers.
bszottlinger on September 07 at 9:15 a.m.
ChefGus:
Don’t you and others understand that as far as Chief Kirkpatrick is concerned she only agreed to stay on for five years and this job is nothing more then a stepping stone for her. My gosh people she never had to deal with all the situations like she has here when she was in Ellensburg, or Federal Way. This is a learning experience for her. The Mayor is going to allow her to make mistake, after mistake, after mistake. How else will she be able to learn and move up. After all we learn a lot from our mistakes right…so we don’t repeat them. What difference does it make if a small segment of the community is dissatisfied with her leadership she isn’t elected and it will be awhile before there is another Mayoral race, by that time, with a few exceptions, everyone will forget. Why should the city commission get involved in any way, heck, strong Mayor form of government…right… she has the right to hire and fire whomever she wants. If the stuff really hits the fan they can deflect criticism to the Mayor. Why should the Mayor at any point admit it was a bad hire, it was just a Mayoral learning experience and we learn from our mistakes but we don’t have to admit them. Besides it might make us look bad.
Gee whiz, this is just our police department for crying out loud, it’s not like it is something important like the sewer department. Lighten up will you!
Brad
bszottlinger on September 07 at 10:12 a.m.
misjustice:
I think you are addressing the wrong audience here with your analysis. You need a police self defense expert. Some where on line you can find a list of the experts the Federal Government will call in the Zehm case that will testify Officer Thompson was out of line. But if you’re looking for something a little more local you could try SPD Officer Uberuaga who is a defense instructor, remember he is the one who along with Officer Boothe another SPD defense instructor, said initially that everything Officer Thompson did was hunky dorey. Then after the Federal Government got involved Uberuaga told the Feds that what Thompson did wasn’t hunky dorey. Then Uberuaga after a meeting with City Attorney Rocky Treppiedi decided he wanted to change his testimony and say what Thompson did was kind of hunky dorey and kind of bad.
My point is there will be experts on both sides when and if this gets to litigation, whether criminal or civil.
Brad
worthasecondlook on September 07 at 11:00 a.m.
I see everyone is still complaining but nobody is signing up to guard our city at night. Criticize yet not willing to step up and replace this policeman and put your life on the line next time. I will not criticize unless I am willing to walk in that person’s shoes. Too dangerous for me, I appreciate his hard work keeping me safe.
misjustice on September 07 at 11:05 a.m.
@ Brad; I was merely posting/posing questions that have occurred during the course of a conversation. Questions that I believe are pertinent to this public forum and discussion.
I appreciate your recommended sources for additional information and further exploration of my questions; I will do further reading. I understand that “experts” will and can offer varying testimony as to what is accepted protocol.
Ron_the_Cop on September 07 at 11:25 a.m.
Ok the dust hasn’t settled on this one yet. With the info dripping out it allows for speculations and suspicion.
LOL Brad re Anne Kirkpatrick. Perhaps you may be coming around to what former Sheriff Bamonte and I have said for several years now re her actions as chief. Sheriff Bamonte hasn’t been that thrilled about Sheriff Knezovich either. I’ve been somewhat riding the fence on Sheriff Knezovich. Again my dissatisfaction with him was not outing what Tucker did on the Savage case.
Sheriff Knezovich to his credit has been the ranking officer taking point on this case. Chief Kirkpatrick has been MIA. I’m wondering if the City Attorney’s Office is playing a role in this? Anyway I wouldn’t have allowed the officer to go on vacation. Not good for PR. I would have placed him on administrative leave and told him tor remain available. I would have canceled his vacation and paid him for his expenses.
The baton strike is troubling as others have point out. I’m speculating there was miss-communication and miss-indentification going on. I don’t have an issue with the plain car in a business parking lot responding to an area complaint re criminal activity. The officer apparently was in uniform but was not recognized as such by Creach. The office says he exited his vehicle. Creach apparently didn’t recognized him as being a uniformed officer - glasses, hearing, diabetic? Don’t know what the verbal commands of officer were. Sounds a little odd to use baton when confronted with gun.
I’m sorry folks but if I’m in full uniform and exited my vehicle, having given verbal commands and suspect with gun was not complying, it’s lethal force time. Yes there was no round in the chamber but the officer had no way of knowing that.
Could things have been handled better. Yes. Perhaps a phone call to the owner. Was this practical or expected? No. Could Creach have called 911 yes? Yes. Did he need to on this own property? No.
Again I have more issues with how these critical incidence are handled. Whose in charge? Whose handling the release of information? The public is normally trusting of LE but with the recent incidents in are area there needs to be considerable transparency earlier on to avoid suspicion.
Ron_the_Cop on September 07 at 11:31 a.m.
Sorry
are=our - there’s a couple of tense issues too:-(
lewis8457 on September 07 at 11:31 a.m.
I think Mr. Hirzel has been watching and participating in the blogs the other night on KXLY there was a poster that got really upset when we were throwing theories at him.
Every time I wrote Hirzel must have fired at the 2 foot range the poster got agitated started crying to KXLY to censor. Maybe the baton story is an attempt to explain why he shot a guy in the chest 2 feet away.
We all know how the cops love their batons I am to believe he would only hit him once with the baton? A man of age would bruise easily.
WE all know where this is going, Justified murder at close range.
misjustice on September 07 at 11:48 a.m.
“Sounds a little odd to use baton when confronted with gun.”
Exactly, Ron. The use of a baton, at that stage of the confrontation, doesn’t make sense. Neither does the purported leg strike. That is why I think that it is a lie.
Additionally, the reported timeline continues to nag my mind; the officer supposedly did a lot in a 2 minute 10 second time frame…
Lewis, it could very well have been who you think it was. Or maybe gramms under a different handle…Lol!
Ron_the_Cop on September 07 at 1:07 p.m.
FYI - Rebecca Mack interviewed Sheriff Knezovich this morning on KRYS. I think you can listen to the podcast here:
http://www.kyrs.org/showprofile.cfm?id=1268969334832#podcast
lewis8457 on September 07 at 1:14 p.m.
the kxly thread is fun because you can respond directly to the person attacking you or if you want to have a conversation with just one person.
No cop in his right mind is going to use a baton on a guy at arms length who is holding a gun i would hope for 100 grand a year we are employing smarter cops like that. and the speculation Creach raised his arm to shoot makes no sense either any gun owner knows you never point your gun unless it is ready to fire, in the amount of time it takes to bring the gun up aim and then squeeze off two shots one for the empty chamber and the other fire that gives ample time for the deputy to draw and fire. I just don’t think Creach was that dumb.
spokelooneh on September 07 at 1:42 p.m.
“My point is there will be experts on both sides when and if this gets to litigation, whether criminal or civil.
Brad”
Experts?
“”Today I made and appearance downtown
I am an expert witness, because I say I am
And I said, ‘Gentleman’….and I use that word loosely…”I will testify for you
I’m a gun for hire, I’m a saint, I’m a liar
Because there are no facts, no truth, just data to be manipulated
I can get you any result you like….what’s it worth to ya?
Because there is no wrong, there is no right
And I sleep very well at night
No shame, no solution
No remorse, no retribution
Just people selling t-shirts
just opportunity t participate in this pathetic little circus
And winning, winning, winning’ ”
-excerpt from Don Henley’s song In The Garden of Allah
bszottlinger on September 07 at 1:58 p.m.
spokelooneh:
Yep, you find a Phd that says the sky is blue, I’ll find a Phd that says…not so…it’s red.
You find a police defense expert to say all is good, I’ll find one to say all is bad.
misjustice:
I knew what you were doing and you made some good points. I was just being facetious.
Brad
Pat O'Leary on September 07 at 2:34 p.m.
I have occasion to travel about Spokane Valley and have noticed the police working radar sites for speeders. Instead of what I would consider to be a police uniform, they seem to wear rather nondescript black coveralls. They also wear a baseball hat that says police, or possibly sheriff, and I assume they are wearing their badges. During the day that would probably be recognizable, but I’m not sure about after dark. I don’t know what the shooter was wearing the night of the homocide, but if it was the black coveralls, that might explain why Mr Creach was killed.
bszottlinger on September 07 at 3:06 p.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
Thanks for the link to the interview. It certainly provides a different perspective. He nicely put the blame right where it belongs with respect to the information flow, guess who ChefGus. You can tell he isn’t happy with it either. He said basically what I’ve been trying to say all along with regard to procedural aspects. The only other criticism I have of him is he probably should not have responded Sunday regarding the baton issue because he didn’t know all the facts. You could also tell he isn’t happy with the SPD investigators providing investigative detail to the family, but he has no control over it, guess who does.
I wonder why the media won’t say who the investigators are. I hope Detectives’ Ferguson and Burbridge aren’t involved boy would that be hard for Chief Kirkpatrick to explain to ChefGus.
I think I’ll maintain my perseverance. I kinda like this guy.
Brad
Ron_the_Cop on September 07 at 4:56 p.m.
Brad,
Agreed re Sheriff Knezovich.
Lewis,
I believe Creach’s gun was a 45 semi-auto pistol. If there isn’t a round in the chamber, it requires racking the slide back to chamber a round before you can pull trigger to fire a round. The slide then slides back and chambers another round with the hammer in a cocked position.
Ron_the_Cop on September 07 at 5:08 p.m.
There’s a new thread started after the press conference article:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/07/creach-drawing-gun-when-shot-police-say/
Ed Byrnes on September 07 at 7:59 p.m.
I maintain that we would all be more trusting of the investigative process if some of our fellow citizens were included in it.
Accountability, accountability, accountability!
Transparency, transparency, transparency!
Inclusion, inclusion, inclusion!
The process would most likely be more trustworthy with citizen participation as well.
circle8 on September 09 at 1:37 a.m.
The display or use of a firearm by either a civilian or a law enforcement Officer is not to be taken lightly. In classes for the issuance of a CCW the instructors discuss these two points at length because of the legal limits in when a firearm may be used. Whenever a weapon is displayed, whether by a Officer in plain clothes or a civilian, ANY responding Police Officer MUST view that as a potential threat. Police Officers in civilian clothes know they are in danger until that other Officer KNOWS their status. A civilian has the same responsibility and is in the same danger.
The article states that Mr Creach has confronted many people, including thieves, with “gun in hand”. That is the worse thing anyone could do. We all have the right to protect ourselves and our families from bodily harm. The law allows a person to use deadly force if they are subjected to that level of a threat. If a person with a shoe in their hand threatens to kill you with it shooting them would be a big mistake. If that same person had a pipe, baseball bat or firearm and attempts to kill you shooting them would make more sense. As a general rule once you bring a firearm into the fray all bets are off and you may end up dead or prosecuted.
None of us know what happened in that parking lot. I personally believe that had Mr. Creach identified himself as the property owner as he was approaching the deputy things might have ended differently. Remember it was only a few months ago that the person who killed four deputies in Tacoma approached a Seattle Officer, at night, with a gun in his waistband, without speaking and as in this case the man drew his weapon but the Officer was slightly faster. This is not the old west or a movie set where everyone is quick on the draw. Ask anyone who has tried, it takes work to get that weapon out of the holster because of the safety latches. Sometimes too long.
bear99 on September 10 at 4:45 p.m.
This is very sad tragic event ! Prayers to family for there great lost of life of a loved one. If this officer - made a terrific error in judgement he will have to live with this all the rest of his life.
I’m not defending either side here - so don’t think i,m siding her with either side ! Sound like both sides had Errors on this tragic evening. Read a lot of Bias opinions here.
Maybe those that feel the Spokane County Sheriff/ Deputies job is not full of risk, Maybe they should be applying for the job and put in front line to deal with what they are dealing with every nite out there. I know, here comes the slamming !
We might never know truth what really happened that night, which is sad. We know the systems are not prefect !
Wonder what it would be like without any police @ all ?
I myself, I,m not sure what the answer is - Bear !
Arch_Druid on September 12 at 8:59 a.m.
My only view here is that once that shooting occurred, Hirzl should not have been able to go on vacation and should have been interviewed as quickly as possible. You take a week before you get interviewed, you have plenty of time to change what you wish of what actually happened.
Otherwise, I think that most of these comments were quite good.
And Pastor Creach is no longer around to defend himself or his character. So, I wouldn’t suggest assassinating it post mordem. All right, folks?