Spokane7
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September 8, 2010 in City
Police detail Hirzel account of shooting that killed pastor
Deputy says he ordered Creach to drop gun; son calls it murder
Spokane County sheriff’s Deputy Brian Hirzel said he ordered pastor Wayne Scott Creach to drop his gun multiple times, struck the 74-year-old man in the leg with a police baton and fired only after the property owner began to draw the gun out of his waistband, an investigator said Tuesday in the first detailed account of the Aug. 25 incident that resulted in Creach’s death.
At no time did Creach aim his weapon at Hirzel, according to Spokane Police Lt. Dave McGovern, who supervises the detectives who investigate major crimes.
The autopsy following the shooting showed no corresponding mark on Creach’s leg from a baton strike, McGovern said.
“But then again, that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t struck,” the police lieutenant said. “It’s just that there were no marks of it.” Further forensic testing will be done to determine if there are marks on Creach’s trousers or fibers on the baton.
“That’s why we will take the statement piece by piece by piece and go through it,” McGovern said. “That’s going to take us some time.”
Also Tuesday, Spokane police Chief Anne Kirkpatrick made her first public comments about the “tragic event” her department has taken the lead role in investigating. Kirkpatrick said she hopes the case will be handed over to the Spokane County prosecutor’s office by early next week.
She said she met with the Creach family earlier in the day to tell them what detectives have learned in the investigation and “to extend personal condolences on behalf of the law enforcement community.”
Alan Creach, son of the slain Southern Baptist pastor, said Tuesday that his father was killed defending his freedom.
“My dad didn’t understand what that deputy was doing out there. Obviously he had questions. I don’t believe it’s written in the Constitution that when a deputy approaches you have to put your gun down. I think the law of the land is going to have to rule here,” he said. “I’m not a lawyer but it really bothered me incredibly to hear how my father was murdered.”
At the briefing Tuesday, McGovern said Hirzel, a 41-year-old deputy with about 18 years of law enforcement experience, parked just after 11 p.m. on Aug. 25 at Creach’s Spokane Valley nursery business at the request of a neighbor who called for officers to check on prowling activity in the area.
Hirzel told investigators that he didn’t know the business owner lived next door to the Plant Farm, at 14208 E. Fourth Ave., and he had no prior knowledge of numerous police contacts with Creach, who – according to the family – frequently armed himself with a handgun and had apprehended several trespassers.
Hirzel, a deputy assigned to work for the Spokane Valley Police Department, was parked in the business’s parking lot in his unmarked Ford Crown Victoria with the driver’s side window down. He was typing up tickets on his dashboard-mounted computer when he noticed a light to his left.
“He looked over and saw a male, no shirt on, pants, approaching his car, and he was about 30 feet away,” McGovern said, describing Creach. “He had a gun in his hand. It was down at his side.”
Creach got within a couple feet of the car. “The deputy, as (Creach) was approaching, didn’t feel like he had enough time to get out of the car, so he drew his weapon and pointed it out the driver’s side window at Mr. Creach.”
Hirzel told investigators during the two-hour videotaped interview that he told Creach four to six times that he was an officer and that Creach needed to “drop the weapon.”
“Mr. Creach answered a few times, saying he didn’t have to,” McGovern said. “At one point he said … ‘people have stolen from me before.’ We asked (Hirzel) if that clued him into that he was a property owner. (Hirzel) said no, it didn’t. He remembers the statement being made, but it did not clue him in that he was a property owner.”
By then, Creach was next to the unmarked patrol car. Hirzel “ordered him to get back from the car. Mr. Creach took a couple steps back,” McGovern said.
Hirzel then made a radio call for other officers to assist him and got out of the car while continuing to keep his service pistol aimed at Creach.
“While Mr. Creach was backing up, he put his gun in the waistband of his trousers” behind his back, McGovern said. “The deputy was ordering Mr. Creach down to the ground. Mr. Creach said, ‘I don’t have to go down on the ground. I’m not going down on the ground.’ ”
At that point, Hirzel took his police baton and “struck Mr. Creach once in the knee area. The deputy said that caused Mr. Creach to buckle and at the same point, he reached back with his right hand and started to draw out his gun.”
Hirzel holstered his baton, grabbed his pistol with both hands and fired once, killing Creach.
Hirzel said as Creach “brought the gun up and he could see the butt of the gun when he fired the shot,” McGovern said. Creach “was drawing the gun out his back waistband.”
Alan Creach said the light Hirzel saw when he spotted the pastor was his dad’s flashlight, which was not mentioned by McGovern or other law enforcement officials.
“We haven’t heard one word about his flashlight,” Alan Creach said. “As dad was coming across the parking lot, he had a flashlight in his hand and a gun. They were the two tools he always took.”
Creach “blinked it at (Hirzel),” said Alan Creach. It’s his belief that his father used the flashlight to communicate with Hirzel, possibly to let him know that he was going to approach the car.
Hirzel’s statement doesn’t fit with what Imogene Creach heard from her open bedroom window, according to her family. She and her husband had a prearranged procedure in which she would listen and call 911 if she heard her husband call for help.
“His testimony truly does not match up to what my mother heard. She could clearly hear my father, who was facing away from her,” Alan Creach said. Hirzel “was facing toward her, and she didn’t hear anything he reportedly said.”
Alan Creach noted that Hirzel several times talked about how Scott Creach complied with his commands.
Scott Creach complied “by stepping back. He put the gun in his waistband behind his back. Everything else is Hirzel’s account,” he said. “Perhaps in anger or fear, I think he reacted poorly. It’s clear he didn’t exercise good judgment. I have confidence that Deputy Hirzel will be charged with a crime. Anything else, I don’t think it’s reasonable.”
Kirkpatrick pointed out that Hirzel’s statement is “what he says happened. It raises new questions,” she said. “Now we have to go back and do more investigation. You just can’t close this because he gave a statement. Now we have to go do the leg work and the forensics of that.”
Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich was asked how residents who arm themselves to investigate situations on their own property should react when they encounter a police officer or deputy.
“With great rights come great responsibilities,” he said. “We have to ensure that if a law enforcement officer is there for a lawful purpose and they are confronted with an armed subject, just make sure that we don’t escalate that situation. If that means putting the gun down until the officer knows who you are, that is a reasonable expectation.”
Alan Creach said he views those rights differently.
“The sheriff brought up Hirzel’s Fifth Amendment rights. That same document that allows (Hirzel) to keep his mouth shut also gave my father the right to approach that car with a firearm in a safe condition and not be killed,” Creach said. “You can spin it any which way. I look at it as murder.”
Closing Geiger: Wise or worrisome? 
bvml on September 08 at 2:46 a.m.
I agree with Alan Creach that this is murder. I disagree with him about Hirzel ever being charged with a crime. This is Spokane and another Charley Foxtrot for LE.
Diana on September 08 at 4:16 a.m.
Ozzie’s last quote in the article lays out their blame the victim strategy.
Liberty_Bell on September 08 at 5:56 a.m.
“With great rights come great responsibilities,” the Sheriff said?
And that’s why President Grant, asked the 42nd Congress to pass that Ku Klux Act of 1871. Law for Reform of the incompetant, who do not understand their “great responsibility”
Or did it confuse the Sheriff, that the Constitution is Supreme, above the Klansmen of Spokane County!
Scoutster on September 08 at 6:26 a.m.
I’m still wanting the answer to the question of if police are involved in a shooting are they routinely drug/blood tested immediately afterwards?
If not, and if it’s a union thing, can someone from that community explain why they feel that’s a good idea?
dmartin on September 08 at 6:29 a.m.
lets take a look at past shootings : Shanto Pete was shot in the back of the head, Officer was found not guilty ,2nd dance, Otto Zem was beaten to death Law enforcement is still doing the dance. Now they have the big dance. The Creach shooting .It was a bad thing that happen when those 4 officers were shot and killed in the coffee shop It dose not give the right for officers to go trigger happy then go to the dance I hope someone crash’s this dance My spelling may be off But you all get the picture.
lewis8457 on September 08 at 6:56 a.m.
dennis word of advice don’t put your address on here you will have nuts coming out of the woodwork i speak from experience. thank you for using your name.
In this article it said Hirzel had his gun trained on Creach as Hirzel got out of the car and Creach backed up. it never said he holstered it, why would he use a baton if he had a gun on Creach. that makes no sense, like a lot of things in this case.
I am sorry to say but this deputy will serve no time, once this case goes to Steve Tucker he will bury it like the otto case..
There will just be one more murdering cop on the force and with the strength of the union we dont have a ants chance in hell of changing anything.
liarsinnews on September 08 at 7:02 a.m.
I must repeat myself; a decision as measured in seconds, dictates the story is far fetched. Who can even think about believing it? Watching the news on channel 4 kxly, and listening to Chief Anne is more than I can handle.
lewis8457 on September 08 at 7:03 a.m.
Scoutster no they do not take drug test their union will not allow it simply put the union president would have to stop smoking weed.
they never take a drug test. many government agencies do not test. My buddy works for DSHS they never tested him and he was hired about 3 years ago.
Blue collar is the only ones taking pee tests. I take pee test to clean toilets but a cop carrying a deadly weapon doesn’t have to……..figure that one out.
misjustice on September 08 at 7:16 a.m.
I’m waiting to find out who the other witness is, a citizen working in their garage when the confrontation started is alleged to have heard at least part of the confrontation prior to the homicide. No indication, yet, whether their testimony affirms Officer Vegas’s version of the confrontation…
The timeline doesn’t work, the officer’s alleged actions prior to the homicide are questionable, and his actions following the homicide are reprehensible. Yep, sounds like he’ll be acquitted.
Ninch on September 08 at 7:26 a.m.
Hirzel is lying, but then again he had multiple days to make up his far-fetched story… just like the shooter of Shonto Pete and the murderers of Zehm.
Charlie on September 08 at 7:46 a.m.
I doubt if cops rarely if ever get convicted of killing a citizen. It comes down to he said and silence from the victim unless there are a dozen videos of the killing. A justified shooting will be the verdict, so much for justice. Cops and doctors bury their mistakes.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 7:48 a.m.
notanidiot101:
I think I have it down pretty well from the federal level but maybe you could help me out with something I am curious about here in Washington State. Is there a retreat requirement under the Castle Doctrine in Washington State and how might that play into this scenario? Just curious.
Brad
misjustice on September 08 at 7:53 a.m.
A lawer never asks a question that she/he doesn’t already know the answer to. Watch out, notanidiot, it’s a TRAP! ; )
misjustice on September 08 at 7:56 a.m.
oops, lawyer! Lol!
lewis8457 on September 08 at 8:02 a.m.
A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal doctrine claimed by advocates to arise from English Common Law that designates one’s place of residence (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as one’s car or place of work) as a place in which one enjoys protection from illegal trespassing and violent attack. It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his/her “castle”), and/or any other innocent persons legally inside it,
The statute in Washington state appears to be very simply and broadly stated.
The law allows use of deadly force in the lawful defense of oneself, a family member, or any other person, when there is reasonable ground to prevent action(s) of the person slain to commit a felony or to do injury or harm, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or in the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, on those in their presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which they are.
Washington state doesn’t have a specific Castle Doctrine law, but has no duty to retreat as precedent was set when the State Supreme Court found
“that there is no duty to retreat when a person is assaulted in a place where he or she has a right to be.”
lewis8457 on September 08 at 8:04 a.m.
Brad that is a kicker, i wonder if Steve tucker is aware of the castle
doctrine?
bszottlinger on September 08 at 8:09 a.m.
Scoutster:
I submit to you that the reason your question has not been answered is because even though steps could have been taken to obtain body fluids from the officer non were.
If you keep making an issue of this, which I think is a very good question, and the next consulting group that reviews this case recommend getting body fluid samples from an involved officer how does that make the “Critical Incident Protocol” developers look.
Another reason your question hasn’t been answered is because the media hasn’t asked it, and you have no business telling them how to do their job.
Which brings me to this; Have you ever seen the “Critical Incident Protocol”? Do you know who the investigators are?, and on and on
I finally figured out that the media won’t ask any of the many questions I feel are relevant so why do you have this expectation that because you are you and I am I that you should get your questions answered before me.
Just who do you think you are?
Brad
MJFixit on September 08 at 8:10 a.m.
Police cannot protect us, because they cannot be everywhere at once, but they will do almost anything to keep us from protecting ourselves, even prosecute us, and kill us when we try to protect ourselves. it is time that they be held to a higher standard, not covered up and let off for murder.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 8:11 a.m.
Come on justy you ruining it for me! :)
worthasecondlook on September 08 at 8:14 a.m.
So the castle law allows you to defend your place and then the law is allowed to disarm you if you are uncooperative during a police investigation. He did not put down the gun apparently so it was done for him. Who calls the police to your home then pulls a gun on them?
misjustice on September 08 at 8:14 a.m.
Sorry! ; ) I’ll try and behave…
Scoutster on September 08 at 8:15 a.m.
The Spokane Police Guild is having a picnic on Sept 29.
Maybe that would be a good place for others to come as well and find out the answers to some of these questions.
(They don’t post the time and place, but I imagine an enterprising soul could find out.)
Scoutster on September 08 at 8:18 a.m.
Brad..
I agree that no one from the media seems to be digging very deep on this. I would like to see the protocol myself…
This is a potential Pulitzer (not just this one, but the police pattern over the last several years). Where’s the public advocate? We who know nothing on these comment boards don’t really add much light, but a trained and objective journalist could make a career out of this.
Get with it!
Sadbuttrue on September 08 at 8:23 a.m.
Just since last night, I have been struck by the actual problem here: the police, through their training (indoctrination), through their supervision, and through their lobbying have suddenly and stealthily seized a monstrous level of power and control over our everyday lives. A level of power that is absolutely forbidden by the foundational documents of this country.
The whole idea that this cop and his supervisors could even think it is okay to whack a 74 year old man with a baton to get him to kneel supinely and obsequiously at the cop’s foot should be an insult to every free person.
I am also struck, by the intensity of the public’s outrage, that here and right now we could achieve a level of critical mass to unapologetically take back our power as free individuals under the Constitution where we are full-vested with unalienable rights against this alien police state that has stealthily risen without our consent. As the great Samuel Adams declared “It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds.”
We simply cannot let this preacher’s murder be in vain. Do not let your outrage be bled away by yet another attempted whitewash that leaves this alien and illegitimate police state intact. Samuel Adams again “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”
The Pastor did not crouch down before this little tyrant voluntarily.
worthasecondlook on September 08 at 8:25 a.m.
Going uninvited to a police picnic (probably eating and drinking) is about as dumb and hazardous as pulling a gun on a police officer if you ask me.
straighttalk on September 08 at 8:27 a.m.
Sorry situation but that be it as it may. Let us what if. The property owner asks police for assistance due to property theft and then goes out and patrols his own property. Did he not expect the police to be checking his property. Why did he not report the strange car parked on his property? The police in this instance are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. You can’t have it both ways.
If the had been property stolen after the owner had requested assistance, we would be now discussing the lack of police assistance.
Make up your mind and use some common sense. Call the police for assistance and then arm yourself and do what you just asked the police to do. Plain stupid and resulting in what has happened here. A tragedy but blame the police. I don’t think so. The owner should have stayed in his home and reported the unknown car on the property. He took matters into his own hands; he made a bad choice.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 8:35 a.m.
Scoutster:
“Get with it”
I hope you weren’t referring to me, I’m no journalist, though I have spent some time on 14th NW in DC.
I never go where I am not invited…except here.
worthasecondlook:
I just brought the Castle Doctrine up as a point of interest….. not taking sides….
Go ahead and argue your position how ever you want.
Sadbuttrue on September 08 at 8:42 a.m.
“Going uninvited to a police picnic (probably eating and drinking) is about as dumb and hazardous….”
Yeah, go there and lick their boots to a high sheen and appreciate any crumb your rulers may deign to throw your way.
You might even stay safe that way.
maria on September 08 at 8:49 a.m.
Wow. There seems to be a lot more information coming out in this article. I wonder if the police just make stuff up as they go along….after reading the comments here for ideas.
Liberty_Bell on September 08 at 9:00 a.m.
When you kill a pastor, your normally charged, unless your another drunk, at the Spokane County Sheriff.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/09/08/1332111/sumner-man-charged-with-vehicular.html
Scoutster on September 08 at 9:01 a.m.
Brad..
No, I wasn’t referring to you. I was referring to the liberal, left biased bleeding heart
sadbutrue..
I think your analysis is very accurate. We have, over time, become hostage to the police guild and their above the law protocols.
We are to blame for that for not paying better attention, but the time has come to establish some boundaries around these people.
Protect and Serve whom?
Scoutster on September 08 at 9:03 a.m.
worthasecondlook…
Going to their little picnic is as dangerous as pulling a gun on one of them?
wow, they are more out of control than I thought.
Ron_the_Cop on September 08 at 9:15 a.m.
Scoutster,
As I explained in another thread to Brad, where I worked per a negotiated policy an officer involved in the death of another - firearm, dui, physical fight et al, must submit to a blood test. The results are screened by a QME to rule out prescription meds and other false positives before the results are released to the agency.
Ok here’s my speculation based on the latest release of information on this shooting. Bare in mind my previously disclosed issues with Sheriff Knezovich, Chief Kirkpatrick and also how these critical incidents are handled and investigation. Also I do have issues with SPD police policy, procedures, and tactics for which I fault the police command staff. Given there are many fine men and women serving at the SPD and sometimes the Guild shoots itself in the foot PR wise. OK did I say that Co Prosecutor Tucker is no where to be found?
A request for additional patrol is received because of ongoing police problems. The officer parks his unmarked unit in the parking lot. No issue of trespass. Creach’s gun doesn’t have a round in the chamber. Not relevant as there is no way officer could have known this. Should police call property owner? Perhaps in a perfect world but this does not generally happen.
Officer is doing computer work. Is his report writing light on that would interfere with his night vision or just the computer screen lit? Not determined yet. Do we know what kind of uniform the officer was wearing. Regular issue or BDUs (blacked out battle dress uniform - recognizable during daytime but maybe not at night to vision impaired person). We don’t know. What is Creach’s vision and hearing? We don’t know. Did the officer have any ability to discern these limitations?
Creach walks out to investigate and gets within 30 feet of officer with gun at side. Perhaps officer startled. I might be esp on graveyard shift when eye’s wink shut for a split second. I don’t think this officer was nodding off. Officer realizes man approaching see guns at side. Officer doesn’t have time to exit unit and draws weapon to cover subject and gives orders to drop weapon. Subject no complying with orders to drop weapon. Officer has time to step out of vehicle still covering subject and repeating orders to drop weapon.
Creach probably now realizes maybe dealing with officer if he recognizes uniform. Creach knows he’s the property owner and doesn’t want to drop his weapon for fear of damaging it so he places it in his rear waistband. Officer continues to order him to drop weapon and Creach doesn’t. Officer orders Creach to the ground. Creach hesitates because he knows he the property owner and why is this officer ordering him to the ground.
Officer then strikes Creach with baton to get compliance. I doubt I would have pulled baton and would have continued to cover subject until backup arrived. Question is what was staffing at that time and what was response time of backup officers.
Creach realizes and starts to comply perhaps removing weapon to put it on the ground. Officer thinks subject is going for gun and fires shot.
Did officer over react? Did officer used deadly force without justification? Did officer precipitate deadly force situation by use of baton? These issues must be weighed by experts with overview of public involvement - a jury if necessary.
Tragic outcome? Yes.
Handling of critical incident investigation by law enforcement and PR/transparency - poor.
vikkiesawyer on September 08 at 9:20 a.m.
The officer will get away with it Most of them do and now only one side can be heard. I think he had a right to bear arms to defend his land and family. Makes me sick in the past 4 years there have been several police incidents involving either shooting someone in the head, a peeping Tom who still has a job still Thompson still free as a bird for murdering Otto Zehm a mentally ill person who probably didn’t know what was going on officer Thompson lied to the Athoritis and almost four years later still no justice for him. Officers having sex in thier cars that still work for SPD. So I don’t have my hppes up of this other family will see justice just like the others still has no justice just a lot of excuses.
Sadbuttrue on September 08 at 9:27 a.m.
“Regular issue or BDUs (blacked out battle dress uniform - recognizable during daytime…”
Sorry Ron, but I just have to ask: Why would ANY cop - who is allegedly paid to protect and serve us - be wearing a “blacked out battle dress uniform” …. EVER, for ANY reason?
Ohmygod! A “battle dress uniform” on a civilian policeman? To better lay in wait for us?
Isn’t that just clearly a monstrous admission that they truly believe they are at war with us? And for the longest time, I thought my “war against us” analogy was just hyperbole!
valleyman on September 08 at 9:39 a.m.
I love how a tragedy brings out people’s true colors. Painting all police with the same brush is no better if you are in support of them or opposed to them. But I do have to ask you this: Would you rather have a trained officer who knows how to use the tools at his disposal respond to a call for service or a shirtless 74 year old with an empty gun and a habit of confronting people take control of the situation? I know what I’m going to do next time I need help, and it’s not walk out into the street with no shirt and try taking the law into my own hands.
TheRoyLarsen on September 08 at 10:10 a.m.
TOP TEN REASONS WHY JANITORS CAN’T BE POLICE OFFICERS:
10. Bianchi holster for snake not sold commercially.
9. Dickie brand does not come in police blue.
8. Rotating shifts keep you from listening to Art Bell in the morning.
7. Whistling “Three’s Company” TV show theme throughout eight hour shift no longer part of police agility test.
6.FANTASTIC FLUSH training series narrated by Lorne Greene not compatible with stationhouse Blu-ray player.
5. Must pass polygraph in addition to knowing where it is located.
4. Kirby discontinued handgun line in 1969.
3. Police Officer requires 60 hours of college. Become a Deputy Sheriff. Requirements are the same.
2. Using a vacuum requires you to suck at your job.
1. Must WANT to do job, not HAVE to do it.
Itsgodswill on September 08 at 10:14 a.m.
I would rather have an officer who knows not only how to use the tools at his disposal, but also knows WHEN to use the tools at his disposal. Just because he has training with these things does not mean that he should just be using them in a situation that easily could have been defused. It sounds to me that the victim WAS cooperating, but also wasn’t going to give up his rights that are written as the constitution says. Police officers use fear and intimidation to have things go their way..Unfortunately their way doesn’t fall in line with our rights..So our rights get violated and they get their way because they are figures of authority, and a pretty good amount of officers abuse their power. Officers should know that they have power without abusing it. Maybe eventually they will realize that the more they screw up, the less we’re going to listen to their commands.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 10:15 a.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
All excellent points to consider. The problem is we really don’t know and the investigators may never know. There is but one human witness left within the range of all five senses and he has supplied his version of the incident. The onus now is upon the investigative process to utilize everything at their means to try to establish if the officer is telling the truth. That process includes a litany of things that must be done, and done properly, all of which take time. Unlike many, I am willing to let the process take its course and then make my judgment. As you can see I do question as do others some of the moves that have been made here. It appears to me that the agencies involved in this case have not studied the importance of information flow and have made several mistakes in that regard. Scoutster’s drug test issue is something that perhaps could have been done regardless of union contract. The family more than anyone has the absolute right to know everything concerning the facts surrounding the case as does the public, the big question is at what point. In my opinion that point is when ALL of the facts have been determined and a sound and reasoned judgment can be made as to the prosecutorial direction.
It amazes me that local law enforcement given the Zehm case, and others, has an expectation that the public should have complete confidence in their handling of this matter. Chief Kirkpatrick said in the press conference that once the case goes to the prosecutor (Monday) it will be public record. I don’t see how it can be. If that is not accurate can you imagine the outcry.
As you and I have pointed out again, and again, where is the prosecutor?
The Sheriff went into detail in his radio interview with Rebecca Mack as to how the officer and witnesses were isolated right after the shooting, something not done in the Zehm case and apparently resulted from criticisms made by consultants after Zehm. People should read those reports. When the dust settles here I hope civil leaders include the public in any review which may take place.
Washington State, as far as I know, does not have a Police Officer’s Bill of Rights like many other states including California. People should read those and consider that a similar law could be enacted in Washington State.
You still haven’t answered my question regarding the now famous California Baton.
Brad
misjustice on September 08 at 10:26 a.m.
Isn’t it great to have a wild imagination? So many “what if’s”, so many “should have/could have’s”. One person makes a guess of what happened & others jump on the wagon with YES!, that’s the way it must have gone down. Actually, it’s kinds of funny to ready all the comments.
Maybe the public should just be prepared for an officer to pull their weapon each & every time they approach anyone. That way no one would be surprised when they do.
This is the way ALL officers approach traffic stops in CA now. They don’t have their hands ON the weapon, they have them drawn & ready. Maybe WA officers should start taking that approach too.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 10:33 a.m.
Gramma:
You blew it again, far to much vernacular.
dialectica on September 08 at 10:39 a.m.
RCW 9A.32.070
Manslaughter in the second degree.
(1) A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person. (2) Manslaughter in the second degree is a class B felony.
Criminal Negligence is defined in RCW 9A.08.010 as follows: “A person is criminally negligent or acts with criminal negligence when he or she fails to be aware of a substantial risk that a wrongful act may occur and his or her failure to be aware of such substantial risk constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise in the same situation.”
There’s plenty of maneuvering room for Hirzel to mount an effective defense against a charge such as this, and it’s a toss up over what a jury would do with it, particularly since he likely would argue that he was simply following the training he’s been provided. But it would be tough to claim unless there’s some additional surprise information that hasn’t been disclosed yet that the legal elements to bring this kind of charge haven’t been met.
1) Wrongful act = killing a lawfully armed property owner on his own property.
2) Failure to be aware of that substantial risk = statement from Creach that people have stolen from him before; knowing that he was parked on private property in a predominantly residential neighborhood.
3) Deviation from standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise = Beating an elderly man to the ground who at no time during the encounter pointed his weapon at the officer, and in fact had put his weapon away — with police backup just a mere seconds away if the Code 6 actually had been issued prior to the baton strike.
misjustice on September 08 at 10:40 a.m.
Really?
carisa021 on September 08 at 10:43 a.m.
Our democracy is governed by the “Rule of Law” where everyone agrees that we’ll abide by a given set of rules. We can even change the rules by introducing legislation for a vote. We make it easy to call the police so that we don’t all need to carry guns around.
Unfortunately Mr. Creach decided to act on his own to represent the law, even though reports indicate police had adequately handled previous problems. Why did he go outside ready to shoot someone?
Sadly, as Ozzie mentioned, folks don’t understand “rights and responsibilities” of gun use. Brandishing a weapon to intimidate is illegal, even if you are protecting your property.
For example, say I go to Best Buy. The store owner cannot come out and threaten to shoot me for trespassing, even if the store was closed.
DELTA on September 08 at 10:44 a.m.
According to the statement, he had enough time to get out of his car, get close enough to pull out his barton and hit a 74 year old man in the knee with it then fire his weapon. That seems to be very close to the victim to see him pull his gun from behind his back…
johno on September 08 at 10:46 a.m.
So we are to believe that the victim never explicitly said that the officer was on his property? I find that hard to believe.
DELTA on September 08 at 10:49 a.m.
Carisa, how many times do the police get called and take forever to show up if they feel it important enough to show up at all?
carisa021 on September 08 at 10:58 a.m.
RIGHT: If you are inside your home or business, you can use lethal force to protect yourself.
RESPONSIBILITY: No brandishing of weapons in public. Use a gun only in self-defense from an imminent physical threat.
Liberty_Bell on September 08 at 11:06 a.m.
Yea carisa, as if you also ever read the property trespass statutes in the State of Washington?
Even a shooting of an illegal makes for a great new story,
where in Spokane another dead citizen is the norm for this imbecilic government!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/09/08/2010-09-08_los_angeles_protestors_egg_lapd_station_after_police_shooting_death_of_immigrant.html?r=news
Itsgodswill on September 08 at 11:09 a.m.
Exactly, Delta…Police officers are too busy patrolling for petty BS instead of being out looking for real criminals. I was handcuffed and put in the back of a police car for about 20 minutes for JAY WALKING and they literally had at least 5 cop cars there some with 1 cop in them, some with 2, plus another 3-5 on bikes…While in the back of the cop car, I specifically asked the cop if he enjoyed the work he did, which he said yes to, and then I asked if there was really nothing better for 10 cops to be doing then arresting me for crossing the street 10 feet away from the cross walk, to which he said “I guess not..”
Meanwhile, I guarantee that somebody throughout that night had called the police, only to wait several hours to get a response because they had so many of their resources handling something that 1 cop MAX could have handled. If any at all needed to handle it..Sorry for crossing the street SPD!
ChefGus/ John Olsen on September 08 at 11:09 a.m.
A property crime, in and of itself does Not justify use of a .45 Cal Semi Automatic…. Period… It feels to me as if this “:Pastor” may have made a critical mistake by going out of his house/castle to confront Anyone… and sounds as if he’d done it before.
Basic Training 101… with a .45 Semi Automatic… have a round in the chamber… hammer down and not cocked… and If…If you are waving it around or carrying it openly at your side, and confront someone… then They have a reasonable assumption that you are going to Kill Them…
Sounds to me as if the Police Officer waited about as long as he dared to …. Going out on your own property to roust folks that are transient … is the Police Dept’s job… Not the individual citizen…
If someone chooses to break In to my home… then they will likely be scary enough for me to fear for my life… but the answer here is to Call 911… and report a Fire… not a break in… the Fire Dept will be there in minutes…. always…. calling the police, with their limited coverage may take too long…That is what we recommended to Women in Domestic Violence situations over the years in King County… and the sound of the sirens in 2 minutes headed your way… is very reassuring…
This IS a tragedy… but in my view it is one that was unnecessary and precipitated by the gentle man’s trying to take the law into his own hands.. we are Not yet at a point of Vigilante Justiice…. Once we are.. there is no stopping the spiral down….
I don’t think this review was handled well by the people in charge… but the problem was avoidable…. John Olsen
worthasecondlook on September 08 at 11:10 a.m.
Hey,
Here is a recruiting event to be a policeman….you guys should put your money where your mouth is and apply. Perhaps, you will find yourself in the same position and you can wait and see if the homeowner shoots you instead of taking preventative measures. Let us know how that works out.
http://www.khq.com/Global/story.asp?S=13119225
bszottlinger on September 08 at 11:26 a.m.
dialectia:
Obviously a charge the prosecutor may have to consider. I agree with your criminal defense position and can see others which may or may not be effectively eliminated depending on the investigation.
ChefGus:
Can’t undo what has been done. I wish we could.
JayNW on September 08 at 11:36 a.m.
Creach’s son said, “I don’t believe it’s written in the Constitution that when a deputy approaches you have to put your gun down. ”
Well, just because something isn’t mentioned in the constitution doesn’t make it right, or smart. Sad, but to think that you can approach a cop with a gun and the cop is just going to sit there and be like, “oh golly gee who cares”- then you are an idiot.
That cop didn’t know who Creach was, or what he was going to do with the gun. You can’t walk up to an officer with a gun in your hand, or waistband and not think that cop has every intention of keeping themselves safe. Put the damn gun down, and cooperate and you stay alive.
Common sense people, its just damn common sense.
I rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 11:38 a.m.
Worthasecondlook:
I was looking for something a little less stressful, any openings in the accessor’s office you are aware of?
eagleproducer on September 08 at 11:39 a.m.
I sure hope Tucker gets the file PRIOR the the general election. It would be interesting to see how his lame duck arse will shuffle this one along.
Time for law enforcement to regain credibility in this country by getting smart on crime and not tough on crime. Stop arresting and prosecuting people for consensual “crimes.” Sheriffs (like Arpaio in Arizona) are notorious for ignoring laws they don’t like. Since they are still elected in many states, this allows a path to political legitimacy I don’t think would exist for them otherwise. The office can be a springboard to higher office, so sticking to the mantra of being “tough on crime” (which really means arresting lots of people for behavior that harms no one’s person or property except perhaps their own) instead of using their dwindling resources to actually fight crimes that hurt people and their property.
The people who continue to support the war on drugs are partially responsible for Creach’s death. Since that will offend most of you, allow me to explain. More than likely the people who stole from Creach in the past had substance abuse problems that aren’t dealt with in a system where a disease is treated with incarceration instead of hospitalization. Creach patrolled his property armed because he didn’t trust the police to protect it. The police can’t be everywhere, but they could be a lot more places if they weren’t pursuing the war on drugs that accounts for nearly half of their arrests and prosecutions. It’s a cash cow for them that they aren’t ready to surrender anytime soon.
In the interview on KXLY, Creach’s son reveals the bullet’s trajectory as revealed in the Coroner’s report. It is downward and came to rest on his right shoulder blade. From the deputy’s account this would indicate Creach was shot while kneeling or bent over. How do you get shot in the chest in such a position? The two just don’t go together very easily.
elcee1987 on September 08 at 11:42 a.m.
If any ordinary citizen shot and killed someone in self defense, regardless, the majority of them would end up serving SOME time even if it’s for manslaughter or unlawful possession of a weapon, whatever the prosecutor feels like throwing out there. Because this is a policeman, he is treated differently because he went to school to learn to protect and to serve. He was following protocol by shooting to kill, but perhaps that protocol should be re-examined. Why not taser him? Yes, there’s a lot of controversy because of the taser videos on YouTube, but guess what? The victim is still alive to tell the tale! I guess though, that the ensuing lawsuit was too much of a risk to take, so killing someone, the only other witness, is easier. I don’t feel protected or served.
Truth_and_Justice on September 08 at 11:46 a.m.
To all of you nut jobs here who have tried, convicted and are ready to execute LEOs in general and Deputy Hirzel in particular:
When the SHTF around you and your loved ones what do you do? Yeah, that’s right, you dial 911 and wait for LE to come to the rescue. Not a single one of you was there and none of you have a clue about what happened that night or what the consequences will be in the future. Give it a rest.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 11:49 a.m.
Truth and Justice:
Am I included in the nut jobs?
spokelooneh on September 08 at 11:57 a.m.
What is with this idiotic meme of “Well, tough guy, why don’t YOU just go be a cop and see how hard it is?”
Exactly WHAT does that add to the discussion of this terrible tragedy?
NOTHING.
We ALL already know that cops are put into difficult situations from time to time. THAT IS THEIR JOB, that is what they are trained to do, and for which they are payed quite well for doing.
How they do their job in a situation like this is of paramount importance to the citizenry who have entrusted the police with the supreme power of life or death upon a citizen. The granting of such power in a free society carries with it an immense responsibility to assure that power is not abused.
Scoutster on September 08 at 12:08 p.m.
Really..
What a crock to respond with “what would you do if…” every time someone makes a comment about police. The police in this town have rubbed off any shine many of us might have had about this used-to-be-noble profession. They get away with anything under the “who you gonna call, you have no idea what we see every day, you do the job” nonsense.
Sorry..doesn’t work anymore. Yes, i will call them. That’s their job. I call a roto rooter guy to open my drain, too. I don’t want to do that, either.
But if I don’t like his service, his response isn’t “well, you get down there and open those drains. You have no idea what it’s like.” Huh?
They work for us. They work for us. They work for us. They work for us.
Get it?
Zyworski on September 08 at 12:11 p.m.
Some things are just not adding up about the Pastor Creach shooting. Waiting 12 days to conduct a formal post shooting interview when there is no reasonable excuse for not doing it before the close of shift is questionable and may require a change of rules/law.
The Pastor comes at the unmarked car with a gun and the officer goes for his baton? Using the officers example the next time I go to a gun fight I will be sure to bring a baton.
If he used a baton, what hand was it in? Is he right handed or left? Which hand did he use to hold the firearm? If he used the same hand for firearm and baton how much time passed between the use of each and what did he do with the baton.
Was the gun in Pastor Creach’s hand or tucked into his waste band?
The officer says that he gave 2 commands for the gun to be dropped. The occupant of the house says she only heard a single yell (from getting hit with a baton?) and then immediate gun fire.
Was the Pastor’s pistol checked for gun powder residue (from the officers shot) the pattern of nitrates on the gun will give an indication of how it was positioned at the time of the shot. Were pictures taken of powder residue on the Pastor’s chest, it was supposedly only 2’ there should be residue, and are there any silhouettes to indicate arm hand position? Is the Police Department competent to conduct an investigation?
valleyman on September 08 at 12:20 p.m.
You know folks… it would be a heck of a lot more convenient for the deputy to tell a story that went something like this: a shirtless man with a gun in his hand walked up on me while I was in my car, refused to comply with my commands and I shot him. This would also be just as justified a shooting. So it blows my mind how you can sit there and say the deputy is making this “OUTRAGEOUS” story up about a baton strike, yelling orders, going “code 6,” and then shooting Creach. The fact that he told a story so many of you find so hard to believe tells me that it’s probably the truth since a lie is usually always a lot more convenient and easy to confirm. Simple truth of the matter is, the deputy could have planned this “MURDER” out to be a lot more convenient for him if in fact that’s what it had been. This was a by the book encounter from the deputy’s perspective and for you to say any different merely illustrates that you are simply looking for an opportunity to shout “MURDERER” at the top of your lungs and look for someone to lynch for your anger. When you play with the fire you get burned…
eagleproducer on September 08 at 12:20 p.m.
Do you mean ASSessor’s office, Bradford?
Or as in accessory? Sure, I’m sure Malone will have a few spots open after he routs Steve “19th hole” Tucker.
dialectica on September 08 at 12:21 p.m.
Truth_and_Justice:
Yes, we dial 9-1-1 and hope that LE responds, particularly since the message from law enforcement time and again is that they’re so overworked and understaffed that only the highest priority calls can get answered.
Nonetheless, we as a civilized society continue to provide law enforcement with just about whatever they say they need, and it’s costing us dearly.
When police said they need an emergency communications tax increase, even after they spent the previous communications tax increase on overtime pay instead, we still complied. When police said that a two-year tax levy increase was necessary to avoid deep cuts to police and fire services, we complied. When police told us they needed a sales tax increase to pay for criminal justice needs, we complied — even as many in the private sector have had to cope with decreasing salaries and benefits.
So, how on God’s green earth can anyone claim that the Spokane community doesn’t support its uniformed emergency personnel?
But supporting law enforcement, or anything for that matter, does not require the suspension of critical analysis, particularly in tragic but thankfully rare cases such as this one.
To turn a blind eye to a troubling scenario like the Creach death simply because we all agree that “cops have a tough job” would be a travesty — not just for the Creach family but for the community as a whole.
misjustice on September 08 at 12:24 p.m.
Where do you get the salary of $100,000 for a Deputy? Do a Google search. Officers in Spokane are paid 13% LOWER than the national average for the same job elsewhere.
Less than $50,000 to do such a nasty job? Doesn’t pay enough for me!!
***********
Deputy Sheriff Salary in Spokane, WA Average Salary In USD as of Sep 8, 2010
Deputy Sheriff in Spokane, WA
$47,000
Average Deputy Sheriff salaries for job postings in Spokane, WA are 13% lower than average Deputy Sheriff salaries for job postings nationwide.
Average Salary of Jobs with Related Titles In USD as of Sep 8, 2010
Government Worker in Spokane, WA $60,000
Court Protection Deputy in Spokane, WA $51,000
Deputy Sheriff in Spokane, WA $42,000
Court Reporting Training in Spokane, WA $47,000
Correctional Deputy in Spokane, WA $78,000
So someone sitting in court (court protection) watching a trial or doing court reporting/transcription get paid higher than those actually in the line of fire? Even a jailer makes more than those on the street!
As I said before… . Doesn’t pay enough to have to deal with the fruitcakes out there on a daily basis.
Sadbuttrue on September 08 at 12:25 p.m.
“When the SHTF around you and your loved ones what do you do? Yeah, that’s right, you dial 911 and wait for LE to come to the rescue.”
Umm…….no I don’t. As corrupt, violent and dishonest as the local cops are, you are risking your life to call the police.
Which brings up an interesting point. It sounds like the pastor had given up on the idea that the police were there to protect his property. Unfortunately, he learned too late they are not there to protect his person, either. As a writer above wrote, the police waste an inordinate amount of time and our money fighting the “War on Drugs.” Just yesterday, KXLY reported that in response to budget cuts, they will be eliminating property crime investigations altogether (Notice how drugs crime investigations were not even mentioned for budget cuts). The Pastor’s actions clearly indicate that the police have already abandoned property crimes. Criticize him all you want, but people do not behave that way unless they have abandoned all hope in the system.
He should have called the cops and complained that he found a marijuana joint in his parking lot. There would have been dozens of cops protecting his property then, 24-7.
zelda on September 08 at 12:29 p.m.
I read something in Time magazine last night (Sept. 13 issue) that casts a new light on the issue of trespass on private property. It involves a recent ruling from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals concerning a person who was a suspect in a marijuana dealing operation. The police installed a GPS device on his car while it was in his home driveway.
The article, titled “Big Brother is Watching,” says, “Government agents can sneak onto your property in the middle of the night, put a GPS device on the bottom of your car and keep track of everywhere you go. This doesn’t violate your Fourth Amendment rights.”
More to the point of the Creach case, it says, “The judges had a peculiar rationale for why Pineda-Moreno’s [the suspect’s] driveway was not private. Although the courts have long held that people have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their home and in the curtilage — a fancy legal term for the area right around the home — the Ninth Circuit determined that this particular driveway was open to strangers, such as delivery people and neighborhood children, who could wander across it uninvited.
“But in a blistering dissent, the Ninth Circuit’s chief judge, Alex Kozinski, pointed out that by this logic, only wealthy people who protect their property with electric gates and security booths have a zone of privacy around their homes. People who cannot afford such barriers have to put up with the government sneaking around at night.”
This rule now applies in CA and eight other Western states, The issue is likely to end up before the Supreme Court, according to the article, particularly since a similar case in the District of Columbia received a ruling that this is an invasion of privacy that requires a ruling.
spokelooneh on September 08 at 12:33 p.m.
“Gramma on September 08 at 12:24 p.m.
Where do you get the salary of $100,000 for a Deputy? Do a Google search. Officers in Spokane are paid 13% LOWER than the national average for the same job elsewhere.”
Please provide a direct source/link for that (copy and pasted) information, otherwise it’s pure bunkum.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 12:38 p.m.
Thanks Tucky I needed that! :)
Thoreau on September 08 at 12:38 p.m.
I see more hatred and criticism toward “cops”, compared with Hirzel. Are you critics that stereotypical, ignorant, and angry that you judge all “cops” on a few individuals? I’d like to hear about your job, if you even have one. Chances are that it is not a civil service job, where your every move could be publicly condemned. No, you hide behind your desk, or your computer, or whatever unknown, petty, profitable job you may possess. The media has spurned public outrage over teachers’, police, politicans’ mistakes and/or crimes. Yet, because your job is not public, we rarely hear of your skeletons in your closets. I see a lot of inexperienced, non-empathetic crticism toward cops in general. Does your sh— not stink?
Sadbuttrue on September 08 at 12:43 p.m.
That 9th Circuit case is just another case in a long trend wherein our constitutional rights are being quickly eroded in favor of the monstrous police state raising its ugly glistening hydra-heads. This is been going on for a long time.
And it didn’t start with the Patriot Act.
In fact, the controversy about the Patriot act is a joke. The worst excesses of the Patriot act involved a handful of terrorist suspects who had a couple of their telephone calls monitored. Any Public Defender in the United States has 500 files on their desk, every single one of which involves warrant less searches and seizures, gratuitous physical violence during arrests and people sitting in jail for six months before the charges are dropped. The rights of terrorists have far more scrutiny and public concern than ordinary american citizens.
The murder of the pastor has suddenly focused the outrage of the public. He was murdered because he was not quick enough in servilely showing that he was a boot-licking, leg-humping holster-sniffer. Had he rolled over on his back like a dog and produced his genitals for summary defenestration, he would be alive today.
carisa021 on September 08 at 12:54 p.m.
Whoa, Thoreau.
I think many Spokanites are -legitimately- leery of cops since Otto Zehm and Shonto Pete.
Spokane police will need to continue to show us and they are honest servants. They need to prove they are by-the-book and not overly aggressive or trigger-happy. Their reputation is pretty shaky right now…their handling of this case has not helped.
But let’s focus on facts that contribute to this discussion, not hateful rants… :)
Thoreau on September 08 at 12:56 p.m.
carisa ~ So, the massive amount of comments against police are not “hateful rants”, but mine is. That makes as much sense as the bulk of this comment board.
Sadbuttrue on September 08 at 1:06 p.m.
Your rant isn’t “hateful.” It is clueless.
Whenever these kind of incidents occur - i.e. when yet another citizen is brutalized or murdered for failing to eagerly press their nose into the cop’s low orifice - the police profess complete mystification why they have earned so much energetic hatred from the public.
misjustice on September 08 at 1:13 p.m.
I can’t get it to do a link but here is where I got my information. Type in to Google Chrome: Salary of Deputy Sheriff, Spokane, WA & this is what comes up:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Deputy+Sheriff&l1=Spokane,+WA
You can also find many departments pay info at:
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/deputy-sheriff-salary-SRCH_KO0,14.htm
So, just because I didn’t give a link doesn’t make it NOT true!
Sadbuttrue on September 08 at 1:20 p.m.
That’s just the starting pay for a rookie. As soon as you can prove that you can senselessly murder a civilian, like the Otto Zehm killer, your pay automatically increases to $100,000 + benefits.
misjustice on September 08 at 1:28 p.m.
Then sadbuttrue I’m surprised you haven’t applied yet!!!
bszottlinger on September 08 at 1:30 p.m.
Truth and Justice:
As a prosecutor, and a member of Mr. Tuckers Staff, I am sure you are aware that your role is to provide a view completely independent from that of local police officials. Please believe me when I say I have nothing at this point to doubt the word of either side in this case, so I am reserving judgment. As for me someone who has been around the block a few times (double blocks I might add) I know full well, although rare, agents, police officers, and even lawyers sometimes do not tell the truth. The same is true of witnesses and suspects. All to often prosecutors have a tendency to believe everything they are told by law enforcement officers and after a few bouts with dishonesty that tendency begins to evaporate. I have known some young inexperienced AUSAs who were married to federal agents and it took them awhile to come to the realization that not every law enforcement officer is honest. I don’t know whether that is the case with you, nor do I care. However, I would like to point out to you that your post will be interrupted by many as public support in this matter for Officer Hirzel. I’m more inclined to chalk it up to a mistake out of frustration.
Because you represent Mr. Tucker’s office your post, if you are representative of the entire office, doesn’t instill a lot of confidence in me that an independent analysis of the evidence will be conducted, and I suspect I am not alone.
Spokelooneh provided you with some pretty good insight as to the public interest. It may be a good idea to consider that insight. I hate to say this, because it has been said to me time and time again but it is true. Idiots or not, we pay you to do a competent, thorough, and independent job. It isn’t easy, no doubt about it, but we do have a right to question anything and everything you do.
I would hope that you have sense enough not to return to this forum, and really sit back and reflect upon what you have essentially done.
Brad Szottlinger
misjustice on September 08 at 1:34 p.m.
And where on this article does it say this is the rookie salary? It doesn’t. It says it is the AVERAGE salary & that it is 13% lower than other jurisdictions.
Itsgodswill on September 08 at 1:55 p.m.
All of you who are “for” the police in this situation, your side is very understandable to a certain extent. They do have difficult job, yes I know that. They do have to make difficult decisions, yes I know that. But you are saying that those of us who are against police, or against the procedures of police only start complaining when something like this happens..Which may be true about some of the people who are upset, but what you have to realize is that there are CONSTANT mistreatments by the police aside from shootings/beatings that also contribute to it. Plain and simple, the people no longer trust those who are supposed to serve and protect, but we’re still supposed to count on them to do the right thing? How can we count of them to do the right thing when they AREN’T doing the right thing(s)? I fully admit that not all cops are abusing their power. But so many of them are abusing their power, that it’s hard to trust them as a whole. I’ve had times recently where police assistance would have been nice, but I WASN’T the one to pick up the phone and immediately call 911 because I know that IF they show up, they’re likely to do nothing at all and i’d rather not waste my time. What it comes down to is that there has not been enough repercussions against the officers who are doing wrong, so more and more are doing wrong, whether they intentionally put themselves in the position to do wrong or not. The facts are facts, and as stated before, if I killed somebody in the EXACT same situation, i’d be in jail. All because im not wearing a badge. Being a police officer is a position that used to hold so much honor and have nothing but respect from the majority of the public. It isn’t a coincidence that so many people are against not only cops, but many other authorative figure, so you must take into consideration that it isn’t MY job to immediately support them, it’s their job to prove that they deserve my respect and support. They’ve done the exact opposite of that.
charshe on September 08 at 2:08 p.m.
“This IS a tragedy… but in my view it is one that was unnecessary and precipitated by the gentle man’s trying to take the law into his own hands.. we are Not yet at a point of Vigilante Justiice…. Once we are.. there is no stopping the spiral down….
I don’t think this review was handled well by the people in charge… but the problem was avoidable…. John Olsen”
Exactly! My sympathies to the Creach family, but this whole constitutional rights bit is getting a bit old. My 64 year old husband had better call the police under similar circumstances, not go out of the house in the middle of the night with an EMPTY gun. The Constitution also doesn’t guarantee happy endings to recklessness.
Sadbuttrue on September 08 at 2:09 p.m.
My oh My!
A prosecuting attorney is caught red-handed making a preemptive announcement of the outcome of that office’s “independent investigation and review,” even before the evidence is submitted by the police.
And the police supporters continue to claim that they have no idea of why they are hated so viscerally by the public!
Truth_and_Justice on September 08 at 2:13 p.m.
@ Brad
No sir. As I think I’ve related on other threads, you don’t fall into (or should that be under?) the tin-foil hat category. I have not read the entire thread, just enough to get a flavor, but, as usual, I’m sure you raise some valid questions based on logic, experience and reason.
My post is my own personal opinion, to which I and everyone else here is entitled. What no one in here, myself included, is entitled to is their own facts, e.g., the one above (near the top) that claims that Mr. Zehm was “beaten to death”, which is not true.
I do not represent Mr. Tucker or the Office and I will not participate in any review of the facts or decision as to whether this officer involved shooting was or was not justified. Those decisions will be made once the investigation is complete, which it is not. I’m just tired of all of the half-baked speculation and conspiracy theories from the usual suspects on these blogs.
BTW - - I’m at home dealing with some flood damage and not presently on the government nickel.
RobertHLocksley on September 08 at 2:19 p.m.
I’ve been involved in CJ in the Spokane area for 25 years. There are huge holes in the Deputy’s version as it now stands. A full disclosure of his statements are owed to the community and the family at some point. While there is still a possibility of criminal charges that will likely be later then sooner. I wonder one thing however. SPD detectives routinely suggest a polygraph test for suspects they question, especially if their story doesn’t add up. I wonder if they have used this tactic with Deputy Hirzel and if he would be willing to submit to a polygraph?
Itsgodswill on September 08 at 2:27 p.m.
@charshe; I wish people like you were in a country where constitutional rights didn’t exist. Then maybe you wouldn’t take them for granted. I hope at some point that your rights are tested and prove to be there for a reason so that maybe you can figure out why they were put in place to begin with..
soccermomsusie on September 08 at 2:35 p.m.
Alan is right when he says, “I don’t believe it’s written in the Constitution that when a deputy approaches you have to put your gun down.”
I think that this is written in some socialist countries’ constitutions (maybe they say “mounties” instead of “deputies” if you know what I mean.)
I think this is a good lesson about the Constitution. If it is not in there, we don’t have to do it. And some things that are in there, we don’t have to do if God tells GWB’s stomach we don’t have to do them.
HEAR OUR VOICE!!!!!
spokelooneh on September 08 at 2:40 p.m.
“Gramma on September 08 at 1:13 p.m.
I can’t get it to do a link but here is where I got my information. Type in to Google Chrome: Salary of Deputy Sheriff, Spokane, WA & this is what comes up:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Deput…
You can also find many departments pay info at:
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/dep…
So, just because I didn’t give a link doesn’t make it NOT true!”
The first link matches the actual recent SCSO job posting for an entry level Deputy Sheriff at $47,000 (Plus a benefit package of at least another $10,000)
The second link provides a haphazard listing of 18 PDs scattered around the country, the data is poorly organized as it mixes hourly and annual pay upon the same supposed scale. It does NOT include Spokane and the numbers they list would apparently average around $38K a year.
Bunkum.
Somewhere the ACTUAL SCSO salary data is available as it is public record.
And I’ve never seen any jurisdiction where the average Correctional Officer makes more money than the average Police Officer or Deputy Sheriff.
Liberty_Bell on September 08 at 2:47 p.m.
The Constitutional Right; for the Left!
“The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good”
— George Washington
worthasecondlook on September 08 at 2:48 p.m.
If you don’t like the police, govt etc in spokane why don’t you move somewhere you fit in instead of jeopardizing the protection the police protect by undermining them and criticizing them? Same people every govt related issue bashing but you are still living here….not so smart. Crime sucks but it is worse when you don’t support the people fighting it. Always a conspiracy….then some sort of settlement so the govt can move on which cost all of us taxpayers dearly….Essentially you are crying murder (sue) and that will probably happen civily, and then paying more taxes to settle with the family. Why not skip the 2 years of litigation and just vote for a levy now to pay them? You can probably get it on the ballot still.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 2:52 p.m.
T & J:
So am I kid, but that is just part of that public service task we took on. I think you can see my point. Just let us old CJ folks try and add some perspective from both sides in a nice way that helps to get people thinking.
Sorry about the flood maybe lewis could help out.:)
Brad
bdr on September 08 at 2:57 p.m.
I think we can skip the trial and get on with the settlement
nuff said…trials just a waste of time!
the guy goofed……!
bszottlinger on September 08 at 2:59 p.m.
T & J:
Perfect example, 25 years in CJ, and even though its been said time and again there is a lack of understanding.
Polygraph can not be requested or demanded.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 3:01 p.m.
Since the issue of peace officer salaries has come up are there any of you officers out there that are willing to take a substantial salary increase in lieu of some of the following?
Mandatory random drug testing.
Mandatory submission to the taking of body fluid samples after a critical incident.
Elimination of interview time frames.
Mandatory cooperation with a critical incident review and investigation by an independent body completely disassociated from any government agency.
Or anything else you may be willing to give up that may instill more public confidence.
Brad
Liberty_Bell on September 08 at 3:05 p.m.
Just let us CJ folks, try to read Spokane County Law?
http://www.justice.gov/crt/crim/242fin.php
The death penality statute, for the Spokane County Deputy
Scoutster on September 08 at 3:08 p.m.
Thoreau..
IMHO the problem is this wall of defensiveness every time those of us in the community even question police procedure. Like “you don’t understand what we go thru, so leave us alone.”
Maybe cops who want to work like THAT should move to another country where unquestioned obedience to authority is the only path. (N. Korea?)
That’s not here. We have every right to challenge every move made by every police officer in uniform every minute of every day of the week. That, my friend, is OUR job. Don’t they teach that at the Academy?
What I truly don’t understand, and what feeds my own personal suspicion, is why the police don’t seem to police themselves.
I’m a professional. In my profession we try to weed out the losers and lawbreakers and misfits. The police seem to circle the wagons. And that just feeds citizen mistrust, which is exactly the opposite of what you would want to have a safer community. It’s self-defeating.
Transparency doesn’t make you weaker, it makes you stronger.
spokelooneh on September 08 at 3:16 p.m.
“Liberty_Bell on September 08 at 2:47 p.m.
The Constitutional Right; for the Left!
“The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good”
— George Washington”
Great, now we have hoaxes being sputtered about.
As this PRO-GUN website points out, there isn’t a shred of evidence that Washington EVER said that.
http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/general/BogusFounderQuotes.htm
Ignorance abounds, sad that.
Thoreau on September 08 at 3:26 p.m.
So, from what I understand, many people who have commented here think it’s okay to stereotype all police, based on a few incidents. Simple, right? Cop did bad = all cops are bad. And since they’re public servants paid via taxes, it’s okay to assume all cops are crooked, making rash mistakes. So, to avoid a double standard here, and since Creach was a preacher incidentally, why not bash on the countless clergy members across the world who have molested numerous kids? Answer: because not all preachers are molesters, just like not all cops are murderers. I’d be more afraid of a Catholic priest, than a police officer these days. As for Mr. Creach, I’m not implying anything about his morals. I never knew the man. His death is lamentable. But people who are ripping on the cops need to focus on the officer(s) involved - not an entire profession.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 3:28 p.m.
Liberty_Bell:
Title 18 is a Federal Law. The Federal Government can not at this point establish jurisdiction. The agencies investigating this matter are well aware that at some point down the road the Federal Government MAY become involved as they did in the Zehm case. That is why I am almost sure they are conducting an investigation that they know may end up being scrutinized by the Federal Government, as was the Zehm case. I would also like to believe that the SPD does not want to suffer the embarrassment they are now suffering and will suffer even more during the Thompson trial.
Scoutster on September 08 at 3:35 p.m.
Thoreau …
When was the last time, and for what offense, did the police guild come out and say: “This cop should be drummed out of the force”?
spokelooneh on September 08 at 3:43 p.m.
A listing of ALL spokane County employees, with names and salary, from 2006 is at the link below.
A cursory sampling of Deputy Sheriff, Patrol lists total salary from the high 50s to the low 70s, not sure if benefits are included in these figures.
To imply that Hirzel or any experienced Deputy Sheriff in Spokane County makes only $47k in 2010 is ridiculous.
http://lbloom.net/xspokcnty06.html
westerly on September 08 at 4:06 p.m.
Sherrifs ave 50k but after several years 80-90k
ck it out here
http://lbloom.net/xspokcnty06.html
Bzerker on September 08 at 4:08 p.m.
Yes they do drug testing. How about the fact that the Deputy is a trained professional and Creach is/ was not. He was woke in the middle of the night and possibly upset and HE is the one who made a mistake(s). The family is making snap judgements because they are upset, they want to blame the Deputy. Imagine the tables turned and Creach shooting a prowler, he could be charged with murder, just because you are on your own property and armed doesnt excuse you from using common sense. Being told to drop your gun isn’t violating your Constitutuional rights! He was given an order and he refused, it is very likely the Deputy had no idea who Creach was. The middle of the night no shirt and refusing commands, DUH!
Thoreau on September 08 at 4:09 p.m.
Scoutster: I don’t know, but some unions serve as armor for their members. I’m not a big fan of some unions. By the way, when was the last time the Catholic Church said a priest should be ousted? The Vatican won’t even acknowledge what’s happening worldwide. Yet, nobody bashes on “all priests”, like they have on cops.
Bzerker on September 08 at 4:13 p.m.
Oh ya Scouster good luck with your challenge, with that attitude you will lose every time.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 4:17 p.m.
Bzerker:
Are you saying that officers here are subject to mandatory random drug testing and mandatory submission to the taking of body fluid samples after a critical incident.If so, how do you know? Fill us in! That would be a good thing, would it not?
horse_feathers on September 08 at 4:17 p.m.
Hey Deputy Hirzel, now that you shot a 73 year old pastor protecting his own property what are you going to do?
Oh, you already answered that question.
misjustice on September 08 at 4:47 p.m.
((Somewhere the ACTUAL SCSO salary data is available as it is public record.)) So where’s the data? As you say, show me the link that says so.
((And I’ve never seen any jurisdiction where the average Correctional Officer makes more money than the average Police Officer or Deputy Sheriff.)) I just showed it to you at that page. So are you saying they are wrong?
Your other information is outdated by about 4 years. What I gave you was updated September 8, 2010. Umm, isn’t that today???? Yes. So, show me the current statement where it is their 2010 salaries.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 4:57 p.m.
Thoreau:
There are a lot of people on here that don’t want to blanket the profession, a lot of us don’t want to condemn Officer Hirzel and are waiting for all the facts to come out. But wouldn’t you agree that in public service transparency is very important. I just know that all of the many good officers like the many good priests would like to have their own organizations weed out the bad. As a matter of fact right here in this town officer has testified against officer, yet a jury verdict came back in favor of the officer they testified against. I can just imagine what they are going through right now, some of their peers will be supportive, others will not. But at least they had the guts to come forward when something they felt was wrong happened. Chief Kirkpatrick was asked by the media if she believed that the officers who had testified against the other officer were telling the truth and she responded by stating that she did believe them. When she was asked if she believed the officer that had been acquitted was telling the truth she obfuscated simply stating we have a jury verdict. Does that instill public confidence knowing that the Chief of Police apparently can not definitively say that she believes one of her officers still working on the department told the truth?
Don’t you understand why some people are distrusting at this point?
westerly on September 08 at 5:01 p.m.
Gramma, since the salaries are out dated add about 20-30 thousand on to the old salaries…….
Scoutster on September 08 at 5:20 p.m.
Thoreau..
OK..Catholic Church. I was raised in the faith. Went to Ireland when I was in my mid-20s and worked with street kids. The Church controlled everything and was responsible for nothing. I grew to completely distrust anything that came out of their mouths. Based on experience working with kids that had been violated by these “professionals”. I have never trusted the clergy since and never will. It’s an evil institution in my mind. Any new information won’t change my history. My biases are set and well earned.
The same thing has happened to my faith in the police in this community. I don’t believe a single thing Ozzie or Anne or any of the other sorry leadership of these agencies have to say, anymore than I believe the Pope.
Does that prove your point?
zelda on September 08 at 5:24 p.m.
KREM just reported that Alan Creach was told there were marks on his father’s knees and pants that indicated he had been kneeling on the gravel.
spokelooneh on September 08 at 5:30 p.m.
going back again through the 2006 salary data, found quite a few higher numbers that I earlier estimated.
Numbers range from mid-50’s to 96K, and it appears the average is about $68K.
Mulvey,Ronald J
Sheriff-Patrol
Deputy Sheriff-Patrol
1979-03-26
96,696.33
the numbers today would be about 12% higher based on the contract for COLA’s, so that $68k average would be more like $76k today, unless they’ve had a lot of retirements since 2006.
Ron_the_Cop on September 08 at 5:51 p.m.
Brad,
Re PR-24/Side handle baton question. It’s probably somewhat related to what baton the officers are trained with in the police academy. We did switch to the PR-24 when I was still in patrol but I never went through the certification process to carry one. I elected and was allowed to carry the straight baton.
Someone mentioned the jury acquitting the officer accused by the other officers of kicking the subject in the mouth. All I can say is that Police Ombudsman Tim Burns who spoke in one of my CJ classes gave this assessment after sitting through the trial. Apparently there was no injuries to the inside of the mouth of the subject consistent with a substantial kick to the mouth in the photos taken after the incident. Go figure but that’s what the twelve random variables - the jury decided.
I’m glad to see Chief Kirkpatrick finally made an appearance. I agree because of the past history of these events the police must error on side of transparency without compromising the investigation until witnesses have given their statements.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 6:11 p.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
Read her comments in here regarding Boothe. I think they speak for themselves.
http://www.inlander.com/spokane/article-15270-strong-arm-of-the-law.html
Brad
misjustice on September 08 at 6:28 p.m.
Mulvey,Ronald J
Sheriff-Patrol
Deputy Sheriff-Patrol
1979-03-26
96,696.33
Let’s see. That’s 31 years of service? Right. He should be making the same as a rookie.
bszottlinger on September 08 at 7:39 p.m.
Gramma:
Do you think you could sell this to the troops?
In exchange for a raise or in lieu of layoffs. It would put officers in with some pretty good folks in the private sector that have similar mandatory requirements.
Mandatory random drug testing.
Mandatory submission to the taking of body fluid samples after a critical incident.
Elimination of interview time frames.
Mandatory cooperation with a critical incident review and investigation by an independent body completely disassociated from any government agency.
Or anything else you may be willing to give up that may instill more public confidence.
Brad
Ron_the_Cop on September 08 at 8:53 p.m.
Hey there is a new thread started. Sheriff regrets vacation thing:
Sheriff regrets way vacation decision was made
Knezovich first learned of Hirzel’s trip after he was gone
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/08/sheriff-regrets-way-vacation-decision-was-made/
spokelooneh on September 08 at 9:00 p.m.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.
You can lead gramma to actual officially sourced salary data, but you can’t make her think about it.
$47k is not the AVERAGE salary of a SCSO Deputy Sheriff-Patrol, as gramma claims ignorantly, it is clearly and obviously the starting salary for a new recruit.
Nor does the average Deputy Sheriff-Patrol make $100k, as many here have ignorantly claimed.
From the data of 2006, the average salary is about $70k-75k then and with normal COLA or other negotiated increases, it’s probably about $85k today, or 1.8 times the 47K gramma is positive is the average deputy salary.
From the SCSO’s website:
“OPEN ENTRY LEVEL
OFFICER CANDIDATE (DEPUTY SHERIFF)
SPOKANE COUNTY CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION
CLOSING DATE: September 10, 2010 at 4:30 p.m. TEST DATE: September 23, 2010
SALARY: $3687.02 mo. + benefits “
http://www.spokanecounty.org/loaddoc.aspx?docid=5205
Also:
“OPEN ENTRY LEVEL
DEPUTY SHERIFF-LATERAL
SPOKANE COUNTY CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION
CLOSING DATE: September 17, 2010 PHYSICAL ABILITY TESTING: October 7, 2010
NOTE: No additional dates for physical ability test will
SALARY RANGE: Step 3: $4,457.48/ mo & benefits to be set for this hiring cycle.
Step 7: $5,443.00
Must have successfully completed probation and
have a minimum of two years sworn, non-military
patrol officer experience, after academy, with a
single agency within the last three years or been
separated from employment less than two years. “
http://www.spokanecounty.org/loaddoc.aspx?docid=5283
As the old saying goes, one should remain silent be thought a fool rather than open their mouth and remove all doubt.
misjustice on September 08 at 9:22 p.m.
Brad, there you go again; asking questions that you already know the answers to!
Ed Byrnes on September 08 at 10:31 p.m.
If a group of civilians routinely used intimidation, force and homicide as their tools, the citizens were afraid of them, they were treated differentially by the courts, and their members operated on a code of silence, what would CJ call them? Perhaps an organized crime syndicate.
The problem is that the LLE rank and file doesn’t speak out against the wrongful actions of their peers be it DUI or homicide. This observed code of silence thus creates an indelible impression on us citizens that collectively LLE is more interested in protecting each other than in protecting us.
We are not engaging in police bashing, we are responding in a reasonable way to repeated abuses by LLE.
It would go a long way toward restoring their collective credibility if members of LLE publicly supported direct citizen review of any police use of lethal or potentially lethal force.
I worked in CJ at the front level for nearly two decades and have been a regular consultant for the USDOJ and several courts and LLE agancies for over a decade since then. I have seen well managed, professional and transparent LLE agencies. My love for my community here makes me regret saying that our LLE agencies are among the worst I have encountered.
Greater transparency with and accountability to us citizens would turn the tide of citizen mistrust and nothing short of this will.
Zyworski on September 08 at 11:01 p.m.
If all this occured next to the police cruiser there should be an audio tape from the dash camera, this should be able to corroborate the officers story. It seems tragic the Pastor Creach stands down by putting his weapon away and the officer escalates with a baton strike. For those who have never been hit with a baton, the police have the nasty habit of going for vital joints and the pain will make you see stars.
If this investigation is found to be deficient it will only go to show that we have the need for a fully enpowered ombudsman who can issue subpoenas and take sworn depositions. An ombudsman should have been present when the Deputy was questioned.
I realize there is a right to seek counsel, but there should be a strict time limit on these post shooting interviews. If an officer wants to consult an attorney he should be given 1 business day, not an entire week, and that needs to be codified in the law. I know the guild is responsible for all these lenient rules and it is time for responsible leadership to stand up to them.
D Statler on September 08 at 11:29 p.m.
Bashing cops ? They may want to clean up their acts so as not to be such an easy target. The real corruption starts when the detectives and prosecutors start making their deals with snitches and twisting the evidence to get a wrongful conviction.Or in the police cases,an aquittal. One of you lie and the other swears to it. I’m sorry to sound cross. I am still up to my ears trying to straighten out the mess you have caused my family.I WILL PROTECT MYSELF!!
19686688 on September 09 at 2:05 a.m.
1st question and concern with this case is: how and why would a deputy have his pistol trained on Mr.Creach after Mr.Creach tucked his pistol into is pants, then find it a need to keep his pistol trained on him as he pulled his baton and struck him in the knee? If an officer did this to me, i can’t say my first reaction would’nt be to defend myself from great bodily injury,if not death, and reach for the pistol i had on myself. Sounds to me like the officer was out of control here! (OH and death was the result in this case).
2nd question: there was a call to the police that there was a prowler at this address, which has a history of calls. The story is, that the deputy was stitting in the parking lot where the call was reported, WRITTING traffic tickets! Is our police dept. that untrained and under informed that when a call went out to that address that the deputy didn’t know he was sitting right there at the scene of the call? Sounds like big-time lack of communication!
3rd question: If an everyday citizen was to shoot someone in the same manner they would be arrested, detained and questioned; more than likely before they were release.. Hirzel was allowed to go on vacation, out of state by the way, and have plenty of time to sit in the Vegas sun and think of what his story would be. Would any law-abiding citizen be able to do this? I think not!
4th and final question: The police dept. has the benefit of wearing a bullet-proof vest; paid for by the tax-payers, have state of the art weapons and have back-up present in a matter of minutes.They are Very well protected and equipped. Should they shoot first and ask questions later? They have the upper hand already.
I think the officer is lying to get out of the biggest mistake (so far) in his life, just to save his own neck! The police chief and Prosecuter will do everything they can to bury this and make it look like it was justified. At the very least, Hirzel should be charged with manslaugher. As everyone else has stated; look at the past track record of the Spokane police Dept.
bszottlinger on September 09 at 7:08 a.m.
Justy:
Please forgive me sometimes I just can’t help myself!
lewis8457 on September 09 at 7:40 a.m.
How can anyone ignore the disgust the police have for the people they are supposed to protect. Cops coming on here trying to say Creach was at fault.
Cops coming on here saying the castle doctrine says you have drop your weapon when instructed by the police on your own property read it again it says the owner DOES NOT have to drop his weapon.
Idiots and you wonder why we don’t trust you.
Since the state has no money lets just make the cops judge and executioner. That way we can lay off all those pesky 200 grand a year judges and all the clerks.
Of course the police job would be EXTREMELY dangerous but at least they would be earning their 100 grand a year.
DELTA on September 09 at 8:36 a.m.
I am far from being “anti police”, but I am a firm believer in accountability. They are trained to handel stressful situations. But there seems to be a history of bad judgment. I believe that most of the police honesty feel they are doing a good job. Maybe more classes in better judgment should be in order. Classes in common sense so officials don’t let an employee involved in a fatal shooting go on vacation.
zagfan1971 on September 09 at 8:49 a.m.
WHAT HAPPEN TO SERVE & PROTECT?????
If for NO other reason other than appearances ..this officer should not have been alllowed to go on vacation OR leave Spokane CO. I cannot believe, as citizens we would have been given that okay to go to Vegas..when you are the prime SUSPECT in a homicide.
Further, how was Mr. Creach to comply with the request to put down his weapon, if he did not remove it from his waistband??? (THEN GOT SHOT) Remembering that at NO time had Mr. Creach threaten or pointed his weapon at the officer. iT Appears ONCE AGAIN an officer was out of control and there is NO justification that a respected, law abiding, 74 yr old minister and business owner was a threat and died as a result.
UTWY32 on September 09 at 9:11 a.m.
This is a tough situation; however so many people are so quick to be influenced by the ever so popular and “fair” Spokane media. Wait for the facts people. Our media isnt exactly known to report the facts. They like the sensationalistic side first.
-yes, bad move to allow the officer a vacation, seriously bad
And as people have mentioned, why would one even think about going on vacation?
But a big question I have that noone is asking, nor is the Creach family willing to answer, Why on earth did Mr. Creach not put his weapon down when he was instructed to by the Deputy? What person, who has any common sense, approaches a police officer waiving a gun around, and then after repeated instructions refuses to drop it??????? I dont know what happened, but I do know had Mr. Creach simply dropped his weapon when a uniformed police officer told him to do it, he would still be here. Now, we dont know if the deputy could have used different tactics to subdue Mr Creach, possibly. But when Creach’s son says in the paper yesterday that the Constitution says he doesnt have to drop his weapon and thats why he didnt obey the instructions, that makes me think the family knows the father made some serious mistakes too. This has nothing to do with the constitution in any way. If it does then technically the officer has a right to bear his arm and protect himself from a man waiving a gun around.What was the officer suppossed to think when he sees a man waiving a gun around, refusing to drop it? Should the officer just hope the guy doesnt mow him down? C’mon people, do you know what goes on at nights? This could have all been avoided had Mr. Creach listened to the officer. Now WSP/SPD/SCSO teams must handle this investigation properly and transparently, hopefully they dont fumble the ball, but this tragic incident is a two way street. Mr. Creach instigated this and did not do what he was told, which was entirely reasonable. To drop your weapon when a cop tells you to drop it isnt rocket science.
very sad, and as usual all the cop haters will crucify law enforcement, however the same people are the first to call when they need help.
Hopefully the community will learn to show some common sense and maybe not approach a cop with a gun. Hopefully law enforcement handles the facts and the truth comes out, and I hope the Creach family is able to find some peace in their loss. Very unfortunate in so many ways
eagleproducer on September 09 at 9:57 a.m.
grammy: Maybe cops are paid lower here because they clear a smaller percentage of their cases. The last time I checked one crime out of seven in Spokane County results in prosecution, sentencing and restitution.
avboden on September 09 at 11:26 a.m.
Office order’s you to drop your gun, you don’t, you resist, you get shot. Pretty cut and dry. It’s not murder.
Sadbuttrue on September 09 at 12:22 p.m.
Officer’s order for you to drop to your knees in obedience, then shoots you while you are obeying his order by reaching for your gun in order to drop it, that’s fascism. That’s a police state. Pretty cut and dry.
UTWY32 on September 09 at 1:31 p.m.
If he had obeyed the order he would have dropped the gun. i dont think the deputy said “Go ahead and put the gun in your waisteband”.The Castle Doctrine..Give me a break, excuses. Have some intelligence. I keep asking whay would someone waive a gun around in front of a cop, and when told to drop it, especially if you have done nothing wrong, you dont drop it? Arent you inviting the cop to become suspicious and aggressive, thats what they are trained to do and 99.9% of the time when someone comes at a cop with a gun it isnt to just “chat”. It wasnt like the cop was out looking for him, he was sitting in his car in an area where more police presence was REQUESTED. Still no one is asking why Creach didnt drop his gun, not put it in his waiste band, but DROP THE GUN so the cop wouldnt think you were going to shoot him.
The Sheriff is 100% right, with these rights and freedoms comes responsibility to not instigate and provoke. To intentionally disobey a cop who is asking you to to do something very reasonable and safe is not responsible..I am certain Mr. Creach wasnt intending to instigate, but this could have been avoided. This isnt about the Castle Doctrine or any other loophole to pin the blame on a the cops. If the facts come out that the deputy is lying then he needs to pay the price, but who is telling Creaches side of the story? All sorts of people who werent there. the wife who may or may not have heard something from an open window. How is her hearing, how far was the window away, was she right next to the window, etc? The son, who understandably is upset and wants to blame who wasnt even there. People who werent there are ASSUMING Creach did nothing wrong and I see many misteps from the beginning form his part as well.
Yes Police have had issues here in this town, wake up they have issues all over the country. yes, our community has many bad people in it who pose a threat to not only us as citizens, but the police too. Wake up and see how this went the way it did, he didnt listen.
The question is now could the deputy have physically overtaken him versus shooting him, etc.
409 on September 09 at 4:35 p.m.
I still want clarification on this indecent. According to Hirzel and the dispatcher records all of this happened in approximately “10 seconds”
a. Mr. Creach approaches and Officer Hirzel notices.
b. Officer Hirzel Notices Mr. Creach has a gun at 30 ft.
c. Officer Hirzel Calls for back-up (5 Seconds)
d. Officer commands Mr. Creach to drop Weapon 5 or 6 times (practice to yourself Saying drop your weapon 5 or 6 times in under 10 seconds. I bet you can’t do it! giviing time for Mr. Creach to respond) (20 seconds Minimum)
e. Mr. Creach puts gun in waistband and approaches another 18 ft….. Approx 2 steps per second (9 seconds)
f. Officer Hirzel commands Mr. Creach to back away from the vehicle and get on the ground and then exits the vehicle. (10 Seconds)
g. Officer Hirzel grabs baton & clubs Mr. Creach in the knee (5 seconds)
h. Officer Hirzel holsters baton, grabs gun and shoots Mr. Creach (5 seconds)
i. Officer Hirzel calls to report shot fired & requests medical assistance. (5 seconds)
I think I have been generous on the “Role Play” of the time lapse of this incident According to the Police and Dispatch. I count over a minute of interaction.
SOMEBODY IS A LIAR.
Bzerker on September 09 at 4:52 p.m.
409 remember this is approximate, have you ever had a significant stressful incident in your life and afterwards try to recall exactly what happened. Same arm chair quarter backing. bszottlinger: its common to submit for a drug test after a significant incident, I do not believe this is something the union could or even would want to prevent.
409 on September 09 at 5:01 p.m.
Dispatch quoted time frame by timestamp of radio calls from Officer Hirzel to Dispatch. And said it was a 10 second time frame. Hard to contradict that one!
DELTA on September 09 at 5:23 p.m.
How is holding a gun at your side and never aiming it at the deputy sheriff (according to the report) waving a gun around? The pastor did put the gun away, in his rear waist band. Also, how long does it take a 74 year old to react to commands? I am 42 and have difficulty getting on my knees because of a service connected disability. OVER REACTION on the DS’s part?
409 on September 09 at 5:27 p.m.
Bzerker -
You need to read things in detail before you speak. Read all the statements the police have released FULLY. Otherwise, probably not wise to post on here.
Dispatch quoted facts from their radio recording time stamps in order to build a timeline.
1watcher on September 09 at 9:37 p.m.
Creach got within a couple feet of the car. “The deputy, as (Creach) was approaching, didn’t feel like he had enough time to get out of the car, so he drew his weapon and pointed it out the driver’s side window at Mr. Creach.”
Hirzel told investigators during the two-hour videotaped interview that he told Creach four to six times that he was an officer and that Creach needed to “drop the weapon.”
“Mr. Creach answered a few times, saying he didn’t have to,” McGovern said. “At one point he said … ‘people have stolen from me before.’ We asked (Hirzel) if that clued him into that he was a property owner. (Hirzel) said no, it didn’t. He remembers the statement being made, but it did not clue him in that he was a property owner.”
By then, Creach was next to the unmarked patrol car. Hirzel “ordered him to get back from the car. Mr. Creach took a couple steps back,” McGovern said.
Hirzel then made a radio call for other officers to assist him and got out of the car while continuing to keep his service pistol aimed at Creach.
“While Mr. Creach was backing up, he put his gun in the waistband of his trousers” behind his back, McGovern said. “The deputy was ordering Mr. Creach down to the ground. Mr. Creach said, ‘I don’t have to go down on the ground. I’m not going down on the ground.’ ”
At that point, Hirzel took his police baton and “struck Mr. Creach once in the knee area. The deputy said that caused Mr. Creach to buckle and at the same point, he reached back with his right hand and started to draw out his gun.”
Hirzel holstered his baton, grabbed his pistol with both hands and fired once, killing Creach.
Hirzel said as Creach “brought the gun up and he could see the butt of the gun when he fired the shot,” McGovern said. Creach “was drawing the gun out his back waistband.”
Alan Creach said the light Hirzel saw when he spotted the pastor was his dad’s flashlight, which was not mentioned by McGovern or other law enforcement officials.
“” According to the previous time line the call was logged approximatley 6 seconds prior to a second call requesting medical services.:”” So we are really to believe that all that took place in under 6 seconds and still left the officer time to aim and his gun and murder the property owner. And all this after he had a week to organize his story. Why does that seem hard to believe. and yes wheres the flashlight so handily omitted from the officers statement
UTWY32 on September 10 at 8:45 a.m.
Delta
Did the cop ask him to “put the gun in his waisteband” or did he tell him to drop it? What would you do? As a cop, someone approaches you with a gun and isnt following directions, you ask him to drop the weapon for your safety and his? Is he drunk, on drugs, angry, diabetic shock, etc etc etc, so many things. Cops are not trained to just hope and assume that someone with a gun isnt going to use it. Does putting the gun in the waisteband make it ok and out of reach, obviously not if he was reaching for it during the struggle??. I keep saying, all he had to do was put the gun DOWN, not in his pants..That would have de-escalated the entire situation. There is responsibility on both sides of the tragedy here.
Creach screwed up big time by not following a REASONABLE order by a uniformed cop. Now the question comes, was the cops reaction appropriate to what creach did, if that is the truth? I am having a hard time believing some of the story on both sides of the argument
19686688 on September 10 at 1:28 p.m.
For U TWY32, Every law-abiding citizen has the right to bare arms, correct? 2nd amendment right. It was Hirzels statement that creach had his weapon at his side pointed down. At NO time did the officer say, he “waved” it around. Much least point at the officer.
Let me ask you, how many times have police been impersonated to commit a violent crime? I can recall many in the spokane area. Now, if you were at home, and been robbed many times and perhaps even encountered the prowlers. Would you walk up to an un-marked car, as an individual in side the car exits with a gun pointed at you and dressed in black night gear saying he is a police officer. Would you immediately just drop your weapon? Or would you keep it at your side pointed down take a few steps backwards,and then later holster it, when you knew for sure in was a police officer.
This is just what the officer says happened, NOT someone else! Does this sound justifiable to shoot this man? He obeyed the officer, but the officer appears to have lost is temper.
Remember the 2nd amendment, it states the right to bear arms to protect yourself, not only from foreign, but domestic threats as well. An out of control officer would qualify as, a “domestic threat”
Don’t get me wrong, i’m not a cop hater. They just seem to always be there when you don’t need them and never there when you do need them.
UTWY32 on September 13 at 12:45 p.m.
19686..
That sure is a lot of ifs and maybe’s. I havent seen too many, if any, times where police have been impersonated to committ violent crimes in Spokane and I have been here quite awhile.
The 2nd Amend doesnt have any standing here. Creach was bearing his arm, noone took that away from him. Where the 2nd amend stops is when a uniformed cop tells you to drop the gun, especially when there is no threat.The cop was sitting in his car and was approached by a man with a gun. How was Mr. Creach “protecting” himself against a uniformed cop sitting in his car doing paperwork. Where was the threat to Creach?
Then, when the cop realized Creach had a gun and told him to drop it, he disobeyed and put it in his waisteband, still athis very quick disposal. He must have realized it was a cop or he wouldnt have even put it in his waisteband. if he thought he was in danger, why would he have “holstered” or put it away? That tellls me he knew it was a cop and then disobeyed orders.
The cops cant assume that putting it in your waisteband means they are safe. All he had to do was drop the gun when a uniformed cop told him to do it. I dont blame the cop one bit for being scared and suspicious of a guy who approaches him with a gun. Waisteband, in his hand, etc doesnt matter, that is a threat to anyone, especially a cop.
Now what happened after that, who knows. hard to say whether the cop did the right thing. If Creach reached for his gun during the struggle, especially after being told to drop it and get on the ground then the cop probably is within his rights. If he didnt, then the cop has some serious issues.
Police officers are given powers by the state to enforce laws, and when they tell you to drop the gun and get on your knees you do it.
This is a sad event, but at some point we as citizens must also be responsible for our own actions, action that may cause issues or threats. It isnt always the fault of everyone else. What is sad is this should have been avoided by simply listening to a police officer. The officers requests to drop the weapon were entirely reasonable.
UTWY32 on September 13 at 12:49 p.m.
In addition he DID NOT obey the officer. The officer told him to drop the gun, he didnt, and he told him to get on the ground, he didnt, stating he didnt have to.
196 that is not even close to obeying a very REASONABLE order
See the big picture a little. Creach was not obeying, for whatever reason, a rason we may all never truly know, he was not obeying a uniformed cop and it went south from there.
UTWY32 on September 13 at 12:49 p.m.
In addition he DID NOT obey the officer. The officer told him to drop the gun, he didnt, and he told him to get on the ground, he didnt, stating he didnt have to.
196 that is not even close to obeying a very REASONABLE order
See the big picture a little. Creach was not obeying, for whatever reason, a rason we may all never truly know, he was not obeying a uniformed cop and it went south from there.
eagleproducer on September 13 at 4:36 p.m.
UTW32: All of your claims are based entirely upon the statement provided by Hirzel. Why would anyone expect his account to be anything but self-serving?
Big bomb about to drop about Hirzel. Stay tuned.
UTWY32 on September 14 at 8:47 a.m.
As I have said before, what happened between Hirzel and the Pastor at the time of struggle is definitely up for question. Could Hirzel have handled it differently, was the use of force justified?? That is to be determined.
But again, none of you have answered why didnt Creach drop the gun when he was told?? Thats all he had to do. he approached a cop with a gun and didnt listen. None of the cop haters have answered that one yet.
In addition, all the claims for the Creach side are being made by people who werent even there and are just assuming.
Even if the Deputy screwed up during the struggle, it should never have gotten that far had Creach listened to a reasonable request
Scoutster on September 14 at 3:12 p.m.
UTWY32…
Is there any evidence, beyond the deputy’s word, that Creach DIDN’T drop the gun?
Scoutster on September 14 at 3:20 p.m.
Also, UTWY32, this case doesn’t make us all MORE likely to drop a gun, quite frankly.
I don’t even own a gun, but I worry about what these potentially drug-addled (we don’t know they aren’t, do we?), iron-pumping, BDU wearin’, testosterone crazed, citizen despising cops are capable of. If I say something they don’t like will I be told to “get on the ground”?
Why?
And do I really want to be that defenseless around these officers? No, I don’t.
The only weapon I carry is a video camera. But that doesn’t mean I feel safe around the police.
misjustice on September 15 at 1:46 p.m.
****$47k is not the AVERAGE salary of a SCSO Deputy Sheriff-Patrol, as gramma claims ignorantly, it is clearly and obviously the starting salary for a new recruit. Nor does the average Deputy Sheriff-Patrol make $100k, as many here have ignorantly claimed.
From the data of 2006, the average salary is about $70k-75k then and with normal COLA or other negotiated increases, it’s probably about $85k today, or 1.8 times the 47K gramma is positive is the average deputy salary. From the SCSO’s website:
“OPEN ENTRY LEVEL OFFICER CANDIDATE (DEPUTY SHERIFF) SPOKANE COUNTY CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION
CLOSING DATE: September 10, 2010 at 4:30 p.m. TEST DATE: September 23, 2010
SALARY: $3687.02 mo. + benefits “ (++++++My comment: This means it is $44,244.24 annually. So where is the 70-75 you state????)
http://www.spokanecounty.org/loaddoc….
Also:
“OPEN ENTRY LEVEL DEPUTY SHERIFF-LATERAL (++++My comment: Lateral means you must have at least 3 years prior service… . Not being a newbie!)
SPOKANE COUNTY CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION
CLOSING DATE: September 17, 2010 PHYSICAL ABILITY TESTING: October 7, 2010
NOTE: No additional dates for physical ability test will
SALARY RANGE: Step 3: $4,457.48/ mo & benefits to be set for this hiring cycle. ($53,489.76 annual… still a long way from $100,000.)
Step 7: $5,443.00 (++++++My comments: $75,316.00 annually… okay? Still where is the $100,000 annual AVERAGE salary?)
My comments also: Maybe you all should check what the real salaries are. The officers I know, and know what they make, started at $32,000 a year. After 9 years on the force they are now making approximately $45,000. Still not enough to have the possibility of being shot at every day.
spock1497 on September 15 at 10:01 p.m.
its sad this had to happen but the cop said he ordered the man to down his weapon and get down on the ground and he kept refusing. i dont blame the cop i blame the man for thinking he doesnt have to obey orders from any law official. and its a dang shame there trying to use his home base business against him
that doesnt have a darn thing to do with the shooting
spock1497 on September 15 at 10:01 p.m.
its sad this had to happen but the cop said he ordered the man to down his weapon and get down on the ground and he kept refusing. i dont blame the cop i blame the man for thinking he doesnt have to obey orders from any law official. and its a dang shame there trying to use his home base business against him
that doesnt have a darn thing to do with the shooting
Elloki on October 05 at 1:22 p.m.
The SR and local media is the most biased, irresponsible I have ever seen. The deputy did nothing wrong, it’s just a matter of terrible and tragic circumstances for everyone. Mr Creach brought on and controlled the situation, not the deputy. The media has gotten so much wrong and misrepresented much in this incident, such as: reporting the deputy left for vacation “hours” after the shooing - he left 3 days later. He did provide a initial “tactical” interview the night of the shooting to the detectives. The department and investigators were in contact with him while he was gone on a regular basis. Reporting that the deputy did not call for an ambulance - listen to the radio tape, he immediately called twice and another deputy called once. Making a big deal of his vacation, which was scheduled for 5 months. Mr. Creach should have called 911 if he legitimately thought someone was breaking into his property, not grabbed a gun at 11pm and “challenge”, as his son put it, the person who happened to be a police officer. Nothing good can happen from this vigilante mentality. My support to the deputy and the police who risk their lives every day for us. THANK YOU.