September 10, 2010 in City

Vestal: Kirkpatrick’s ‘protocol’ lecture missed the point

Shawn Vestal The Spokesman-Review

Tags:Anne KirkpatrickBrian HirzelGreenacres Baptist Churchofficer shootingOzzie Knezovichpolice ombudsmanShawn VestalSpokane County Sheriff’s OfficeSpokane Valley Police DepartmentWayne Scott Creach

94 comments on this story so far. Add yours!

Scoutster on September 10 at 6:19 a.m.
Well done.
ChefGus/ John Olsen on September 10 at 6:35 a.m.
It remains more than two weeks after the fatal shooting, that we do not have enough facts to get a clear picture here. We should not play “blame the victim” here, even though the pastor could have made a much better choice than going out on his property brandishing a .45 Cal Semi Automatic.
The administrative choices allowed by the people in charge, without involvement by the Sheriff were clearly not culturally sensitive…. this was not a native american, or a street person, or a criminal… it was for all reports an upstanding member of the community… ( and thus warranted special understanding of the possible community uproar which has occured).
It does bring to the surface most of the issues our community is faced with as employers of people who can and do use deadly force as a daily piece of their work… and how to moderate/alter their gestalt toward us all.
So perhaps some “good” will come of this, and our Ombudsman and our New County Prosecutor will begin to work together to balance the equation of proper, timely response to queries about incidents of high visibility.
My wonder remains that in cases like Shonto Pete’s shooting by a drunk officer who pursued him for many blocks, even after Shonto was acquitted of any crime resulted in NO jail time for the rogue officer. That is not Justice, that is “Just Us”.. john
lewis8457 on September 10 at 6:42 a.m.
yes it about time. sadly not even Brad knows what is in the extreme we screwed up protocol.
1. make up story fast so the papers can print a lie
2. get donuts
3. smother donuts in vodka
4. slurp gleefully
5. what were we doing? I don’t know it must have not been important………snore
lewis8457 on September 10 at 6:45 a.m.
it was a cover their ass news conference, the supervisor in charge was repeating Hirzel account off the top of his head i found that odd. Maybe the baton strike and waist band were never even in Hirzels statement and sadly we will never know.
liarsinnews on September 10 at 7:20 a.m.
Chief Anne Kirkpatrick`s, news conference was pathetic. How in the world can the citizens swallow her story? Does the Chief think she is talking to a village of idiots?
MaoTenDoo on September 10 at 7:31 a.m.
Whether or not there was police misconduct in this particular case, it is now clearly evident that Spokane needs an impartial civilian body to investigate these controversial LE incidents.
Elkay on September 10 at 7:48 a.m.
Vestal did a fine job expressing my thoughts in this case. Chief K totally missed it.
And Trust-but-verify. I would only add Patience-until all evidence is in.
I also believe Officer Hirzel should have had the common sense to cancel his vacation in this incident. Going to see Mom in MT is one thing — continuing to Vegas was unacceptable.
Sadbuttrue on September 10 at 7:51 a.m.
Cops operate under dazzlingly-complex protocols that are indecipherable to the general public. Those protocols are there to protect the careers and feelings of the police after they have senselessly killed yet another one of us. Furthermore, it insults and demeans the police when they are put in the position of having to lecture us on points that are plainly obvious to any cop, when after all they already know what is in our best interest. With their vast training and experience, they are carrying out their war against us with minimal casualties.
The ignorant and emotional citizenry point to 43 civilian deaths since 1992 as a reason to unfairly besmirch the reputations of our fine officers. Three instances of fatal collateral damage a year is acceptable when placed in a historical context. Civilian casualties, for instance, in the Vietnam war exceeded three deaths per minute. Only three deaths per year bespeak of a level of concern rather than a cause for criticism, particularly when the last police fatality in the line of duty was just 23 years ago. While some would argue that police fatality involved the overdose of Crispy Creme donuts before participating in a mandatory slimming down protocol at the gym, nonetheless it is a constant brutal reminder of the danger these heroes face everyday on the job.
Once again, the Spokesman-Review demonstrates its overwhelming cop-hating bias.
deacon46 on September 10 at 8:10 a.m.
Again, Missing the point that a “person” was killed by a policeman. It is not about their protocol or how the press is treating them. It is about a death and the arrogance and lack of respect these folks who work for us are using. They don’t care ! Only about themselves. Restoring their image, BS !!!!
lordwaddington on September 10 at 8:11 a.m.
Is everybody in this town crazy? I know Spokane is loaded with conspiracy theorists, but how does anyone take seriously a reporter who states that “SOMETIMES the best thing to do when a cop tells you to drop the gun is drop the gun.” The anti-law enforcement sentiment in this town is sad and reflects poorly on its citizens.
LisaB on September 10 at 8:37 a.m.
I’m not going to state my opinion because I know that the investigation is not finished (and my opinion won’t change the results of what happened)…However, I do believe that this is a perfect example of why Spokane and Spokane Valley need to have an Ombudsman. A committee, board or whatever, just let it be individual(s) outside of the “system.”
spokanada on September 10 at 9:00 a.m.
Thanks for the article.
Liberty_Bell on September 10 at 9:02 a.m.
“Kirkpatrick and Knezovich presented a united front at the press conference. Kirkpatrick talked about how they operate as a team.”
THE OBVIOUS!
The Tag Team Forever, let us back you up Kenovitch, so when we Murder an Innocent, You’ll Back us up Right?
The Ku Klux Act of 1871, (42 usc 1983)
Law for reform, of the Democratic Party!
dougfresh on September 10 at 9:05 a.m.
Its pretty ridiculous that we don’t have a full story on what happened that night at this point… clear case of cops covering their asses, gotta make sure they can bend the story how they see fit. This behavior by the SPD & Sheriffs office gives a bad name to the few good cops still left out there.
Liberty_Bell on September 10 at 9:08 a.m.
And lordwaddington,
Now that according to you, it’s a conspiracy to live on your own property, and exercize your INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, well defined since King George, and Lord North were in charge, is also discussed with perfection in Washington States “Declaration of Rights”
I like Article I, Section 1, the best, as it’s confused the Klansmen running your local government for a very long time!
Liberty_Bell on September 10 at 9:20 a.m.
“Kirkpatrick and Knezovich presented a united front at the press conference. Kirkpatrick talked about how they operate as a team.”
Evedently these two should have spent a little time at the pastors church;
They could have learned about the tag team of Government, with Pilate and a few Priests, who also killed an innocent man a couple thousand years ago, and assisted in the invention of the pastors new religion?
“But a short time elapased after the murder of the great reformer of the Jewish religion before his principals were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, & preverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their opressors in church and state…”
Thomas Jefferson
paineite on September 10 at 9:58 a.m.
If there were no witnesses, this cop will walk.
idahocity on September 10 at 10:02 a.m.
the chief uses the delphi technique or method . search engine it.
it’s very sophisticated and likely you’ve been victim to it before.
yellowcat on September 10 at 10:33 a.m.
“Speak in the slow, emphatic tones of a kindergarten teacher”. And “scold the press” Yes very annoying. It is her mode of communicating.
I remember listening to Chief Kirkpatrick at City Council this year at one of Ombudsman discussions. She came to give the “f-a-c-t-s” on a case that had been discussed the week before where someone was shot by the police. As we all know in this town the police do not always give the “facts” in internal investigations. You don’t know the “facts” until you see a video of what happened. The victims of the police also have their set of “facts”. But Chief Kirkpatrick came to the podium with the attitude that because she told a story it was the “f-a-c-t-s” (slow, drawn out for emphasis.).
Defending themselves is the priority, not communicating with the public or the families. The less we know the better, right?
Anne_Observer on September 10 at 10:47 a.m.
@ lordwaddington and others.
Regarding “sometimes the best thing to do when a cop tells you to drop the gun is drop the gun”:
In this case, the police officer had completely overstepped his bounds.
(1) He went on to private property where HE DID NOT BELONG, and parking an unmarked car there was about the STUPIDEST thing he could have done! Especially under the circumstances, anyone with half a functioning brain cell should have realized that they could be mistaken for a thief or vandal!
(2) Creach was entirely within his rights. He was on his own property, investigating an obvious intruder (Hirzel). Remember, it was an unmarked car! At night.
(3) Saying “sometimes the best thing to do when a cop tells you to drop the gun is drop the gun” is correct… in most circumstances. This was NOT one of those circumstances. Creach was on his own property, doing nothing at all wrong, much less illegal. It was HIRZEL who was acting beyond the law! Not only did he not have a legal right to go onto the property in the way he did, he had absolutely no legal authority to tell Hirzel to drop his gun. What Hirzel should have done was to back down, and leave the property if necessary. REMEMBER: regardless of his training or “protocol”, those are for dealing with armed criminals. Hirzel was not dealing with an armed criminal. Hirzel was absolutely responsible for knowing the difference. And he got it wrong.
(4) The fact that (as Hirzel said) he did not know that Creach was the property owner is completely irrelevant. He was on Creach’s property, not the other way around. Creach was under no legal (or moral, or ethical) obligation to show ID on his own property. The officer, however, WAS under that legal obligation. So whether Hirzel knew that Creach was the owner has no bearing whatever on his guilt in this matter. Hirzel did not belong there. He was completely out of line, and had no legal authority to act. That is the crux of this matter. One cannot enforce the law by breaking the law. Especially when citizens get killed in the process.
Even if things went exactly as Hirzel described them (which I rather doubt), he should be fired at the very least, and preferably charged with voluntary manslaughter.
That’s not “anti-law enforcement” sentiment (incorrect hyphenation by the way). That is PRO constitutional rights! There is a huge difference.
I have nothing against law enforcement, as long as it does its job and does not itself break the law in the process. If only we could get the police in this area to actually do that…
Sadbuttrue on September 10 at 10:52 a.m.
During the Vietnam war, after sustained combat with the enemy, the military discovered that morale was vastly improved with Recreation and Relaxation, at government expense, at ports of play like Hawaii and Subic Bay. Certainly, the citizenry did not begrudge our military such brief bouts away from their war time combat duties.
Here, Deputy Disneyland was ambushed and fatally engaged a hostile armed indigenous combatant. A few days away on Rest and Relaxation after such close combat with an enemy combatant is merited in this case. Much ridicule has been heaped upon the bewildered deputy for choosing Vegas for his respite. Vegas, with its groaning and succulent buffets, close proximity to abundant recreation of the seamier carnal sort, veritable showers of free intoxicating beverages; cannot be materially-distinguished from the fetid bordellos and back road lasciviousness of Subic Bay, or the magnificent white beaches of Honolulu.
As a member of a hostile enemy occupation force, I would imagine his stress would be evaporated by now and a swift return to combat is possible.
Anne_Observer on September 10 at 10:55 a.m.
@ Sadbuttrue:
Please don’t call citizens “civilians” in this context. That falsely aggrandizes the police, as though they were military or something, and we merely peons.
We are “citizens”, not “civilians”. And police are not military. They are (or are supposed to be) PUBLIC SERVANTS. Those are two very, very different things.
misjustice on September 10 at 11:04 a.m.
I am troubled by the police wearing ” blacked out battle dress uniforms” (BDUs); police term, not mine. Certainly sounds like we are viewed as potential enemy combatants, instead of citizens.
I can understand the tactical need for SWAT teams to don BDUs. But regular patrol officers? Not so much.
eagleproducer on September 10 at 11:26 a.m.
misjustice: Those BDU’s have invaded the public sector all over the place. I was watching a news account the other day about those labradoodles from that puppy mill and the workers at the animal shelter were dressed like Blackwater mercenaries. I’ve posted many complaints on this paper about cops looking like stormtroopers instead of people looking to serve and protect.
Pat O'Leary on September 10 at 11:29 a.m.
Check today’s Seattle Times and read of their protocol re: officer involved shootings. Quite a difference from that of the SPD and the SVPD.
Pat O'Leary on September 10 at 11:33 a.m.
Although, Seattle is a far cry from being perfect when involving the killing of civilians,
zelda on September 10 at 11:43 a.m.
I like the term coined by the late journalist Murray Kempton — “Police Mandarin: aiming at precision yet never achieving clarity.”
Kirkpatrick uses the word “protocol” because it sounds so much cooler than “process.” Besides, the TV show “24” had mucho protocols and Jack Bauer was the go-to guy.
I still can’t shake the uncanny resemblance Anne has to SCTV station manager Edith Prickley (minus the leopard print coat). There’s trouble in Melonville.
oneanddone on September 10 at 11:49 a.m.
I’m disgusted with all you cop-hating morons. l also know full well that it won’t matter a bit what the facts are in the case. For you, the cops are wrong. End of story. But yet EVERY one of you schleps would scream bloody murder if you were getting the beejeezus beat out of you on the corner and a cop just waved and drove by. Pull your head out.
bdr on September 10 at 11:55 a.m.
I believe the son, the state is guilty of over conditioning Hirzel ,State trainers who espouse to the trainees to shoot a full clip at your target until no longer a threat……Hirzel, treating every firearm in every event as a deadly event proves this man was beyond rational conditioning……
(we get this overly cautious crap from the medical field too)
Hirzel needs to go out hunting with the buds more often to know more than just the men in blue can handle a gun in a safe manor,
Hirzel in his condition now would probably go on an Alaska hunt with 30 hunters loaded for duck…….and only Hirzel would return.
Hirzel is a green cop……jumpy and overly trained
he could have reached down to the pile of rocks he stood on and chipped a rock at the fellow and got full compliance!
Cheezwhiz on September 10 at 1:18 p.m.
The thing that sets people apart from machines, is that they have common sense, judgment, and reason. None of these things were used in the Creach shooting. Hirzel was robocop. Computerized. If “A” happens, goto tactic 1023.5. If this causes “C” to happen, goto tactic 623.8. Might be good guidelines to follow for gang bangers, but not so good for good honest citizens, people on their own property, or elderly people. There are so many choices that Hirzel could have taken, but he chose methods which ended very poorly. I could think of hundreds of different ways to handle the situation in a way that Mr. Creach and Hirzel would still be alive. Policy, procedure, and training only go so far and at that point, the common sense, judgment, and reason should take over. What would make someone think hitting an elderly man in the knee or killing him, would ever be OK? In any situation? If that is policy, procedure, and training, then it needs to be changed. If it is legal, it needs to be changed. I constantly hear about police training being used to justify the procedure and outcome, but that doesn’t make it right. The police should be able to function beyond that. How can they possibly function when they clock out? Not everything goes according to script. I could write a book on what Hirzel did or didn’t do poorly, but I don’t have the time. He may have done what Robocop would have done, but not what any human would do. Nothing should excuse it. If you only follow your training and don’t use common sense, you WILL make a serious situation worse. “The book said.” Why couldn’t Hirzel just grab Mr. Creach by the wrists, or just talk, or reach around and grab his gun from him, or just take cover behind his car, or just sit and wait, or……..
Scoutster on September 10 at 1:23 p.m.
oneanddone..
Do you think the public has any right at all to question the behavior of police officers?
Or, are we all just morons and should just do whatever the police tell us to do and keep our mouths shut because we have no idea what an awful job they have?
eagleproducer on September 10 at 2:06 p.m.
oneanddone: You are right. I would scream in the manner you described if the police didn’t do their job and come to my aid. It should be no different than my screaming when the po-po don’t do their job and it results in the death of one of my fellows.
Being reflective and self-critical in order to improve is healthy adult behavior.
bszottlinger on September 10 at 2:13 p.m.
ChefGus:
The investigation and handling of police officer shootings is never perfect. There has never been any investigation, or for that matter a prosecution that has been perfect.
The object in any case is to minimize the inevitable mistakes. Doing just that requires very skilled people from top to bottom and a system which allows for conducting the best possible investigation while at the same time providing the media and subsequently the public with as many facts as reasonably possible so they have some assurance THEIR (The Public’s) investigation reaches the communities expectations.
There should be a single voice throughout the process and that voice should be that of the individual who has the responsibility for the final decision in this matter, the prosecuting authority. Mr. Tucker is now faced with making an independent decision and no matter what direction he chooses to take it will be open to criticism. The prosecutor should owe no allegiance to the Chief, Sheriff, WSP, or the investigators. His duty is to an independent just decision for the Creach Family, the Community, and Deputy Hirzel.
My criticism of him, unless I find out differently, will be that his office was not directly involved from crime scene to trial, should a trial become necessary. I do not understand how any prosecutor who was so obviously deceived in the Zehm case could possibly sit back and take a position that allows his entire decision in this matter to be based solely on the reports submitted by the three investigative agencies.
The elected leaders of Spokane and Spokane County need to learn from other areas of the country, where THERE IS an understanding for the need to keep the citizenry informed throughout the process with a single informed voice who has the authority to answer and get answers to the questions put forth by the media and the community.
With respect to the Ombudsman, Doug Clark put it quite well in a recent piece “Burns struck me as an affable and benign man who wouldn’t cause the Guild or the City Council a lick of trouble”. Even if Mr. Burns had the wherewithal to cause a lick of trouble he can’t. The current Ombudsman set up is on a collision course with the Police Union, a collision in which the union will end up on top. As I’ve said before the Ombudsman is nothing more then expensive window dressing.
I admire the fact that Frank Malone has demonstrated the dignity to stay out of this mess even though he could jump all over it. In other places the opposing candidate would have been in with both feet.
Brad
BTW, I am there!
bszottlinger on September 10 at 3:31 p.m.
oneanddone:
Why can you not understand that not everyone posting here are “Cop-hating morons”, or “schleps”. Society will always have cop-hating morons and schleps, as well as great cops, good cops, and bad cops. Many of us here are very pro law enforcement but you must be willing to admit that much of the critical questions asked by the media and the citizenry stems from a number cases that were botched, most notably Zehm. I will not pass judgment on Officer Thompson, twelve others will. But I, as the Federal Government has, will pass judgment on the investigation of that matter, and every member of local law enforcement should as well. I don’t blame that awful investigation and process on the individual officers, I blame it on their leadership, ultimately they are the ones responsible.
If you were the officer involved in a death, would you not want a creditable investigation and process that would protect the interests of everyone, including the community you serve? Officer Thompson, nor the community, received the type of investigation they deserved in that case.
Why aren’t all of the wonderful officers on the Police Department and in the Sheriff’s Office demanding that steps be taken to insure justice for all? Circling the wagons, name calling, and blocking transparency only add fuel to the fire. There is a huge difference between protecting your own, and blindly defending your own.
Brad
bszottlinger on September 10 at 3:35 p.m.
Sad Fellow:
You forgot Thailand.
lewis8457 on September 10 at 3:50 p.m.
I came into close contact with a sheriff two days ago at a place i was working at and he was dressed in full black army outfit , with dark glasses, and a attitude.
misjustice on September 10 at 3:57 p.m.
Lewis; the attitude is standard issue! ; )
oink on September 10 at 4:20 p.m.
CDA has a fallen hero memorial behind the 15th street fire station and there will be a memorial service on 9-11 to honor Idaho police and firemen lost or injured in the line of duty.
Should the people/ citizens / civilians/ victoms/ tax payers / of Spokane start to build a FALLEN ZERO memorial for those that have been killed \ murdered \ injured \ harassed or left for dead or RAPED by on duty AND or off duty Spokane police officer / Sheriff deputy / officer / firemen?
NO! NO! NO!
You had better not even think about it! If you gather together to take donations or orginize. The (LEO’S) will call it a riot and shoot, kill, beat or aresst you.
Pat O'Leary on September 10 at 5:00 p.m.
I read that Officer Herzel was wearing a uniform but just what was he wearing? Was he wearing a normal police uniform or one of those black jumpsuits that they are seen in? If that’s what he was wearing it’s not surprising that Mr. Creach wouldn’t be able to recognize him as a police officer and maybe that’s where the problems began. Black overalls are hard to distinguish at night from what a mechanic or cat burglar would be wearing…. and driving an unmarked car to boot…a recipe for disaster.
Thayne on September 10 at 5:17 p.m.
oneanddone - the only blogger here with his head stuffed somewhere is you. No one is saying all LEOs are bad, just the ones who beat a homeless man with a soda bottle, shoot a man in the head with their service revolver while off duty and intoxicated, drive drunk behind the wheel of a police car, etc etc. There are good cops, unfortunately they are probably threatened by the thugs in uniform if they try to speak out. I put 20 years in the Marines protecting the rights of US citizens - including that of free speech. Even your moronic prattling. This officers story stinks to high heaven and we as tax payers have the right to cry foul. Unfortunately, once the good ole boys club gets done investigating the truth will be so muddied it will be unrecognizable. I don’t understand why a truly impartial investigation wasn’t done by another city well away from here like Tacoma or Cheney. Oneanddone go back to sucking your thumb and let the grown ups talk.
Albert on September 10 at 6:30 p.m.
Mr. Vestal - well done!!!
Pat OLeary your comment hit me like a ton of bricks! This is a major point to be taken very seriously AND it makes perfect sense. Uniform? What uniform? No wonder the good Pastor could not recognize this hyper-steroid cop - he was dressed in his black combat uniform and could very well been taken as a cat burglar. This is serious.
Thayne, again very well said and to the point. Thank you.
oink on September 10 at 6:35 p.m.
O= only
I= if
N= nobody
K= knows
Spokane police guild way of politics ”’
Kill at will then just go on vacation …then PAID administrative leave …until the retierment checks start rolling in
come on with your come on…. you that hate cops have no idea!

WE ALWAYS WIN AND WE CAN GET AWAY WITH MURDER
10% of you taxpayers are out of work, but if you don’t give the cops more tax money the Sheriff will sue you and then send his depudidittys to put you in your place…or your grave…
eagleproducer on September 10 at 8:10 p.m.
tick, tick, tick…
That’s the sound of the clock running down the moments until this thread is retired for the night and never to be opened again.
Sadbuttrue on September 10 at 8:44 p.m.
Cheezwiz nailed it “I constantly hear about police training being used to justify the procedure and outcome, but that doesn’t make it right.”
And the supposed basis of this hyper-aggressive military-style training is a demonstrable falsehood. Less than half the number of cops (about 29) died in the line of duty from 2000-2010 as loggers (69). Of the 29 police officers who died in the line of duty, less than one half involved gunfire. Four of the policeman killed by gunfire were the result of one deranged parolee in Lakeland, which dramatically skewed the statistics for the entire decade. The number of civilians killed just in Spokane by the Police in the last 20 years easily eclipses the number of cops killed in the line of duty in the entire State of Washington during the same time period.
These statistics demonstrate that the police have no basis whatsoever in acting in accordance with, or receiving training that might justify what happened to the Pastor. They are not justified in using paramilitary tactics, training, weapons or uniforms anywhere near a civilian population.
Sadbuttrue on September 10 at 8:46 p.m.
The statistics above are all from the State of Washington.
Ron_the_Cop on September 10 at 9:01 p.m.
Brad,
I was going to write more re the investigation of these critical incidents but you covered many of my thoughts already. Let me put this in context what we have just witnessed with the Creach case and our local law enforcement community.
Yes this is long and I apologize in advance for its length. If this annoys or offends you then please scroll on by. I would consider posting this elsewhere as I’ve been told by S-R editors in the past to do so. These forums whether the S-R likes it or not do function as the new town square. As long as the posts remain civil they should not be deleted at the whim of the S-R.
Marshall Smith linked to these initial questions that a Seattle officer must answer shortly after the incident. I’ve said before I have issues with the 48 hour rule re interviews of officers involved in critical incidents. Perhaps these questions that Seattle officers must answer is what Sheriff Knezovich was mentioning re a “tactical” interview was done that night with Deputy Hirzel. In retrospect I would have canceled Herzil’s vacation, placed him on administration leave and told him to remain available for further questioning.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012856125_policeshooting10m.html
I agree police spokesmen must be very careful in releasing information that may compromise reinterviewing the involved officers re contradictory forensic evidence and other witness statements.
The public however needs to know that these investigations will be complete and thorough in seeking the truth and not a CYA effort. I’m sorry but the feds who have their nose under the tent now in this City re the Zehm case will find that the City Attorney’s Office and the police command staff have not acted in the best interests of the citizens in the Zehm case and other financial crimes.
Bottom line is as evidenced from the comments in this thread from previous incidents in this town the public has lost faith in the ability of its law enforcement agencies to do these investigations without major screw ups and or undue influence from political power brokers in our town or police unions/associations representing the interests of their members.
[Continued]
Ron_the_Cop on September 10 at 9:02 p.m.
[Continued from above]
Again if this annoys or is offends please scroll on by.
Again I must say there must be many fine men and women serving in our local law enforcement agencies. What is lacking is effective leadership esp within the ranks of the SPD command ranks. Brad I agree with your assessment that Chief Kirkpatrick is in over her head. Read more here:
http://tinyurl.com/2454jjf
These issues we are discussing are some of the very issues that the Police Guild were trying to raise in their vote of no confidence but they got lost in the spin by the S-R. Yes, the Police Guild did shoot themselves in the foot in the handling of this vote but they did have valid management issues with Kirkpatrick that have nothing to do re sour grapes over her disciplinary actions. Why do you suppose the S-R has not pressed Chief Kirkpatrick on these issues and her absence from public view until very recently in the Creach case? Shawn’s article is the first one I’ve seen that has sought to address some of these issues regarding Chief Kirkpatrick. Why? The media should function on behalf of WE THE PEOPLE to ask those critical questions on our behalf.
Brad I think you are beginning to realize what former Sheriff Bamonte and I have been saying all along re Co Prosecutor Tucker being MIA on these issues may be true. Tucker is the elected LE official that could have taken a leadership role in resolving these issues of trust by requiring the all local LE agencies are playing by the same sheet of music in these critical incident investigations.
While Tucker is reluctant to become involved in these investigations until they are handed off to his office, he has the duty and responsibility to the citizens to become involved. Because of this lack of trust he should function as that independent reviewer of police policy, procedure and practice and whether officers involved cross the line and or engaged in criminal behavior.
Where the Hell has Tucker been? I’m guessing we won’t have anything out of his office until after the general election. Why not? I would hope the media would be bird dogging him on this and not let him play the little coy games of “not knowing” anything other than what was given to him in police reports like he did in the Zehm case.
[Continued]
Ron_the_Cop on September 10 at 9:04 p.m.
[Continued from above]
Brad I concur with your previous assessment that a special prosecutor be appointed and that a state grand jury be empaneled to assist in the investigation. You mentioned a special prosecutor could be appointed but it’s probably Tucker that would have to call for a grand jury. Actually Tucker and the City Attorney have the statutory power to do so. The odds of either doing so are slim to none.
Governor Gregoire can compel this to occur by her statutory authority in the RCW as I laid out in my formal criminal complaint on Steve Tucker re his malfeasance in office in the Jo Ellen Savage case. My letter to Governor Gregoire is one of many I’ve written to Chief Kirkpatrick, Sheriff Knezovich, Prosecutor Tucker, AG Rob MeKenna, and the Governor re the lack of investigation into the Savage death as listed in my “Table of Evidence”:
http://tinyurl.com/ybgkjqe
So far Governor Gregoire has neither acknowledged Sheriff Bamonte’s and my letters. lAG Rob McKenna has failed to respond as well. Why do you suppose? Perhaps they will be seeking support/endorsements/contributions for the 2012 governor’s election. Eastern WA could be the deciding factor in this election. No one in Olympia seems to want to stir the pot in Spokane. Why?
See the RCWs that I cite in my letter to Governor Gregoire:
http://tinyurl.com/23gxdqz
These are the mechanisms by which WE THE PEOPLE can hold the people accountable that we empower to govern on our behalf. If other citizens are in agreement please write Governor Gregoire and AG Rob McKenna insisting that they take action and quit riding the political fence re issues in Spokane.
[Continued]
Ron_the_Cop on September 10 at 9:06 p.m.
[Continued from above]
Last one:-)
Again sorry for the length and if some of this is repetitious but since there may be knew readers here, I wanted to put this into proper context to explain what may be at the route of these incidents like Zehm and Creach.
Until WE THE PEOPLE hold those we have empowered to govern accountable, we will continue to have cases like Zehm, Pete, and Savage. We will also continue to have robberies in broad daylight of the public treasury that WE THE PEOPLE have had to indemnify to the tune of $100s of millions of dollars. Stop for a moment to consider why the City of Spokane has such ongoing structural deficit. This is not solely from a depressed economy.
Both Sheriff Bamonte and I with the assistance of former Mayor John Talbott, former City Councilperson Cherie Rodgers, and reporters like Randy Shaw, Tom Grant, Tim Connor and Larry Shook have tried to educate and inform the people. We have been marginalized at every turn by the S-R and the political powers that be in this town and dismissed for what goes as the other media in this town. My comments are regularly deleted from these comments threads as being spam, alarmist and for other reasons of the day.
My response would be for others to evaluate the collective works of Tim Connors and Larry Shook and determine what the truth is. Consider for a moment of what we are saying is the truth? If you choose to take no action then you can’t complain when these incidents occur. Our political leaders have become so co-opted/corrupted they can’t do what is necessary to affect the necessary changes in the Spokane PD command staff. I would offer as evidence the feeble efforts by the Mayor and the City Council to establish the Office of Police Ombudsman and to expand that office’s independent authority. The Council was literally shaking in their boots over the threat of a suit by the Police Guild over expanding the role of the Ombudsman and secret advice by the City Attorney’s Office that they would not share with the public. Who the Hell runs this City anyway?
As Sheriff Bamonte told Tim Burns, the SPD Ombudsman, when Bamonte filed his complaint against Chief Kirkpatrick as reported by Larry Shook:
http://tinyurl.com/2454jjf
By the end of their meeting, the ombudsman seemed both fascinated and perplexed by what the former sheriff had told him.
“I’m not sure what I can do about it,” Burns said.
“I’ll tell you exactly what you can do about it,” answered Bamonte. “You’ve been given a voice. You’re the police ombudsman. You can use your voice and call for a grand jury investigation. That is the only proper remedy here. You have to get this evidence in front of a jury.”
I WILL NOT BE voting for Steve Tucker.
Det. Ron Wright (Retired)
Ron_the_Cop on September 10 at 9:11 p.m.
Albert,
I concur re your comment re Vestal and your question re BDUs. I actually asked this question in another thread. That thought crossed my mind re this question of ID of the officer and the issue of Creach not complying with the orders of Deputy Creach.
I will wait to see what the results of this investigation will be. I too have my doubts re the handling of this investigation because of the screw ups in the Zehm case.
arroyoribera on September 10 at 9:26 p.m.
I appreciate Mr. Vestal’s comments on Chief Kirkpatrick. Here are my own titled, “Just exactly who is Anne Kirkpatrick?”
http://spokanepoliceabuses.wordpress.com/2010/07/04/just-exactly-who-is-anne-kirkpatrick-annie-got-her-gun-now-tries-to-get-out-of-town/
I encourage people in Spokane Valley & County to get together & form a coalition like the Spokane Police Accountability Coalition. That coaltion forced an improved Police Ombudsman ordinance by educating the public & pressuring the city council via large turnouts at city council meetings, including bringing out significant numbers of people to publicly testify about their abuse by Spokane Police.
http://www.pjals.net/police.html
In 2007 & 2008, PJALS, the ACLU and the League of Women Voters organized a series of forums at Gonzaga University. The Center for Justice was very helpful in providing guidance. http://cforjustice.org/programs/prison/law-enforcement-oversight/
This forum was a key event establishing the fact that a broad sector of the public believed something had gone seriously amiss in policing in our area. That view of major problems in the community had begun to solidify in Spokesman-Review blogs & in particular on the now defunct Hard 7 blog of Frank Sennet, where Frank, Chef Gus, Lewis, myself & any number of others challenged anonymous pro-police bloggers who were latter uncovered as being cops (specifically the infamous Dan Torok - see below - & Internal Affairs cop Jim Faddis). A series of events had made it crystal clear that a different sort of police - militarized in mentality & approach - was prepared to brutally attack members of our community, in particular people of color, the mentally ill, the otherwise vulnerable. Among these events were the STILL unresolved March 2006 murder of Otto Zehm by the SPD & a number of other events such as Sean Fitzgerald’s maiming inside Lewis & Clark High School, Josh Levy’s death in the botched tasering which resulted in his jumping from the Monroe Street bridge, the still suspect & controversial shooting to death of Jerome Alford by Officer Dan Torok (the above mentioned anonymous blogger who was also involved in Otto Zehm’s murder), the killing of deaf teen Eagle Michael by a female SPD officer, the police assault on youth in Riverfront Park on July 4, 2007 & the subsequent evidence hiding scandal in the case of Michael Lyons, Officer Jason Uberagua’s adventure tale with Spokane Sheriff deputies, the Firehouse sex scandal, & Thomas Herman (the convicted sex offender who was living in the basement of Sgt Dave Freitag’s home — Freitag had a small daughter in the home and was also storing weapons for Herman). This is the tip of the iceberg.
The death in very suspicious & totally inexcusable circumstances of Pastor Creech present the Spokane Valley & County with the same opportunity. We are either free citizens of a democracy or we are what unfortunately we have come to appear: cowering, overly deferent, & largely silent.
Ozzie Knezovich is nothing but a citizen in the elected position of Sheriff. He can be voted out & he can be removed by specific other legal means. If he has mismanaged this affair, he is fair game for criticism, public protest, & potential removal from office. If his officer lied, that officer is to be charged, prosecuted and suffer the penalties of his crime.
Whether those ends are obtained, this is Valley’s moment to grab this issue by the genitals &, if necessary, rip them off the community’s police agencies which have become tyrannical, oppressive, & take us — the citizenry — for fools to be lied to & stonewalled, for ignoramuses who must be lectured to & condescended to, for threats who must be beat to the ground, shocked, maimed, & shot to death.
Tell them it is over. Then organize & show them it is over. Bring them under community oversight.
They are no one other than police. They belong to us. Not the other way around.
David Brookbank
Ron_the_Cop on September 10 at 9:58 p.m.
sorry:-)
knew = new
route = root
of = if
And they’re probably others too
Scoutster on September 10 at 10:00 p.m.
As if to prove their distance from everyday people, go visit the Spokane Police Guild’s web page…
http://www.spokanepoliceguild.com/
On the rotating pictures at the top, and the large photo on the right, it is all militaristic.
No friendly pictures of a policeman helping an old lady, or talking to children, or directing traffic or comforting an accident victim. The only friendly cop is being nice to a dog.
Just jackboots, BDUs, guns and shields.
To protect and to serve.
hammer1969 on September 10 at 10:02 p.m.
People don’t kill Loggers because of their cork boots and plaid shirt with suspenders. That’s right. Police Officers get violently murdered because of the uniform they wear. Let’s compare apples to apples. How many civilian employees get violently murdered by their non-coworkers simply because they show up to do their job? Yeah, the stats bear out a little differently now, don’t they. Cops don’t necessarily get paid for what they do, they get paid for what might happen (and is happening more and more); as in - violently murdered by a deranged civilian.
Grandfartmaster on September 11 at 1:57 a.m.
“People don’t kill Loggers because of their cork boots and plaid shirt with suspenders. That’s right. Police Officers get violently murdered because of the uniform they wear.”
Yeah, that’s true. And it’s obviously first and foremost on most cop’s minds. Cops want to be treated like heroes all the time no matter what. Unfortunately this is becoming less and less often the case. I think the recent events in Seattle are making them more paranoid, nervous and trigger happy than ever before. They constantly swarm on scene in overwhelming numbers to even the smallest and simplest of situations. Only then when they have a small army behind them does their courage begin to manifest itself in the form of violent aggression that feeds off the pack mentality.
In situations like the one involving Mr. Creach where a cop is alone and caught off guard and surprised the fear and paranoia can cause an instant adrenaline rush that can overtake all rational thinking and common sense.
Sadbuttrue on September 11 at 6:34 a.m.
More everyday, unsung, unnoticed Americans get violently murdered in the workplace by deranged coworkers than cops. Again, the statistics just do not support the argument that being a cop is particularly dangerous. They like us to think it is, when it really isn’t. It is the big lie that covers a multitude of sins.
They argue that because a tiny number of cops get murdered every year, they are entitled to employ hyper-aggressive, siege-mentality, wolf-pack, military-style tactics against the rest of us. Then they profess shock and dumbfounded amazement at the seething hatred those tactics inspire.
The US Supreme Court recently delivered a stunning rebuke to law enforcement when it abolished the badly-abused automobile “search incident to arrest rule.” Law enforcement had long regarded the right to search cars as an entitlement, notwithstanding the fact that it had allowed the massive violation of rights of citizens. The court found that there just wasn’t a persuasive officer safety rationale to justify the massive violation of the Constitution.
A writer above essentially argued that because some cops get murdered, then it justifies the senseless murder of many civilians in response.
misjustice on September 11 at 8:28 a.m.
scoutster; you’re correct. I went to the site and the pics they selected to post to the site make them look like militaristic robocops. Hardly the image of a profession charged with serving and protecting; closer to storm troopers ready for armed conflict. Chilling.
hammer1969 on September 11 at 8:34 a.m.
“More everyday, unsung, unnoticed Americans get violently murdered in the workplace by deranged coworkers than cops. Again, the statistics just do not support the argument that being a cop is particularly dangerous.”
That’s some briliant logic!
Let’s see, there are 600,000 cops in the US getting killed at a consistent rate of about 100-150 a year and assaulted at around 11000+ a year ( http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm ). The overall US population is running at a murder rate of 5 people per 100,000.
Cops are killed and assaulted by complete strangers only because of the clothing they wear, nothing more, nothing less. They are not killed by “deranged coworkers”, or a tree falling on them, or boats sinking under them, or whatever other dangerous accident or mistake you can come up with. Cops are consistenetly in the top ten of most dangerous jobs in the US with the major distinction being that their risk comes from their customers and clients.
See a difference? Of course not…you’re blinded by bias and ignorance.
misjustice on September 11 at 8:49 a.m.
Although cops may face danger their job is not even on the list of top 10 dangerous jobs in America.
1. Logger
2. Pilot
3. Fisher
4. Iron/Steel Worker
5. Garbage Collector
6. Farmer/Rancher
7. Roofer
8. Electrical Power Installer/Repairer
9. Sales, Delivery, and Other Truck Driver
10. Taxi Driver/Chauffeur
http://money.howstuffworks.com/10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america.htm
idahocity on September 11 at 9:24 a.m.
the prosecutor isn’t the only one who can present to the grand jury. if you’re not happy with administrative justice you can go straight to the constitutional court and seek a remedy. they usually try to hide them from the people and make it difficult to access them. randy kelton in texas goes around the P.A. or D.A. routinely even naming them in the action so they cannot be present when he presents to the grand jury.
hammer1969 on September 11 at 9:35 a.m.
Well instead of googling your request and using the Discovery channel as your source you might want to check out the US Bureau of Labor Statistics ( http://www.bls.gov/home.htm ). It’s a bit more accurate. Workplace fatalities and workplace homicides are apples and oranges. There were only 521 murders at the workplace in 2009. Oh yeah, about 150 of those were law enforcement. There were no loggers murdered while at work in 2009.
Now let’s take a look at those Police pictures you were complaining about, shall we?
Front page
#1 female cop with her canine
#2 two swat cops with a canine standing around waiting for something
Scrolling pages:
#1 same picture as number 2 above
#2 a line of police motorcycles
#3 a group of tactical officers standing next to an armored car
#4 the swat team with a bullet proof shield
#5 some haz-mat guys probably cleaning up a methamphetamine lab
#6 a yearbook photo of canine cops
#7 a cop in the act of shooting his gun next to his car with a fire in the back ground
Wow! That’s pretty offensive stuff…
So when did the marginally insignificant readership of the Spokesman become so anti police? Lol
hammer1969 on September 11 at 9:39 a.m.
Laughable at best: Randy Kelton
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5862846750216164762#
misjustice on September 11 at 9:46 a.m.
Since when did the readership of the SR have to start worrying about, not only cops in the streets but also, cops on the blogs?
Sadbuttrue on September 11 at 12:36 p.m.
There is no doubt that the murder rate of police is about to skyrocket. However, the solution to this impending wave of violent mayhem is not to deploy cops with tanks and amoured personal carriers in the downtown streets and give them the power to kill on sight. It is to end the senseless and colossal failure known as the “War on Drugs.”
In Mexico, 28,000 people (and all too many cops) have been murdered in the last three years there in Mexico’s equally worthless and deadly version of the War on Drugs. Almost certainly, that is going to rapidly move north. The Police, through their tireless advocacy for ever more merciless mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses, have created a vibrant black market with irresistible economics forces. Only the swollen and bloated police/prison/industrial complex benefits from this insanity. As the market for illegal substances mutates and drugs get ever more powerful, dangerous and easier to smuggle in accordance with the Iron Law of Prohibition, the more harm is created both to the users and society at large. Once a person’s life has been absolutely and irredeemably wrecked by a felony drug conviction and prison sentence, every incentive is there to get even more involved in the production and distribution of ever more deadlier drugs and organizations upon release from prison. Prison is the finishing school for the upper echelon management of the illegal drug industry. Many of those previously non-violent drug offenders now vow they will never go back, and now have the tools of extreme violence and skill to make their promise good.
What happened to the four innocent police officers in Lakewood is a mere foreshadow of what is to come. With the prisons releasing millions of prisoners in the near future, we have unleashing an entire toxic generation of mutant, viciously-angry and deadly monsters, with no career prospects other than in the illegal drug industry. As prescribed by the law enforcement lobby, which argues tirelessly and self-interestedly for their “lock em up, tough on crime mentality” solutions, no treatment for effective mental illness or substance abuse is available in prison. We are about ready to reap the whirlwind. Lakewood is the writing on the wall.
Law enforcement is the cause of their own deadly doom, just around the corner. We can no longer afford the police state and its worthless and deadly solutions.
Elkay on September 11 at 2:25 p.m.
Ron_The_Cop,
Do you think this is what Brad was talking about earlier?
http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/danielle/20020416-9999_1m16wester.html
Scoutster on September 11 at 3:32 p.m.
hammer1969…
I’m not a “anti-police”, I am pro-citizen.
Do you have any respect, whatsoever, for the fact that me and many other (working, taxpaying, voting, never been arrested) citizens of this community are learning to detest you and fear you? Do you think we are just making this stuff up?
Or do you take our growing dislike of your profession as a point of pride?
I’m starting to think you think that is a good thing to have the people you serve fear you. Is that true?
Do you want me to worry every time I see you? I do. Is that my problem, or is that your problem?

I think it’s OUR problem. But you don’t seem to even see it as a problem.
It’s time for you, the police, to “get on the ground” and remember who works for who.
Scoutster on September 11 at 3:35 p.m.
And, Hammer.
If the above questioning is too abstract, can you answer me this question I have been wanting answered directly by a member of your profession:
Why shouldn’t a police officer involved in a shooting take a drug/blood test immediately after such an event?
arroyoribera on September 11 at 4:05 p.m.
This quote comes from Joseph McNamara, Hoover Institution research fellow and former police chief of San Jose and Kansas City: “It’s a very dangerous thing when you’re telling cops they’re soldiers and there’s an enemy out there. I don’t like it all.”
The picture I posted on this page came from the Sheriff’s website on August 8, 2008.
http://spokanepoliceabuses.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/who-killed-pastor-creech/
Here is an article on Spokane Police para-military SWAT team which includes links to pictures of their weaponry including H&K MP-5, 33, 53, and the G3 model rifles. Handguns are the Glock .40 caliber fitted with M-3 tactical lights, and the marksman use custom rifles built off Remington 700 actions. The CART Team maintains and deploys all the specialty impact munitions and chemical agents utilizing both 37 mm and 40 mm launchers.
http://spokanepoliceabuses.wordpress.com/2008/01/03/spokanes-para-military-swat-team-police-propaganda-and-pavlischak/
Anne_Observer on September 11 at 10:58 p.m.
To Hammer1969 and others:
The issue of whether police are subject to greater danger in the course of their jobs is irrelevant to the subject at hand. That does not absolve the officer of ANY of his responsibility to protect citizens.
Even if it were not irrelevant, I would have to point out that he took the job voluntarily, and knew the job was dangerous when he took it. So the dangers and stresses of the job are NO EXCUSE. If there was any reason that he could not handle the stress, then he should not have been on the police force.
(And actually, yes, police do get paid pretty decently considering the ACTUAL statistical danger of their profession, and educational requirements. And let’s not forget benefits… those are “pay”, too, by anybody’s standards.)
But he WAS there, so we have to presume that both he and his superior officers considered him to be competent. Therefore, he has no excuse at all; he is fully responsible for his actions.
Let’s get back to the real issues, and facts of THIS case, and several other similar cases that have happened recently:
YET AGAIN we have a citizen who was acting in a perfectly legal manner, well within his rights, who is now dead. And UNLIKE the Zehm case, he wasn’t even in the wrong place at the wrong time. The officer was. Creach was on his own property. But I have to ask what Hirzel was doing on it. I cannot imagine ANY legitimate reason for him to be. A neighborhood partol was requested; nobody requested that Creach’s property be closely investigated, at night, by an officer in an unmarked car, who had no reason to believe that any suspicious activity was taking place at the time.
Regardless of protocol, training, stress, danger, or ANY OTHER factor, things like this (and let’s not forget major and minor injuries too, not just deaths) have been happening far too often for a population this size. The only reasonable conclusion is that there is a genuine and systemic problem with the police in this area. The accumulated evidence simply does not support any other answer.
That is not an “anti law enforcement” position. It is simply an examination of the facts. I am not against law enforcement at all, as long as they are doing their jobs and are themselves obeying the law. But a pattern has been building for a number of years that by now seems clear. Spokane area law enforcement has a real problem and we need a real solution before other citizens get injured or killed.
The union’s position against allowing citizens’ review boards can no longer be seen as anything but obstructionism intended to protect wrongdoing by the police. If they know what’s good for them they will change that tune, and quickly.
spokelooneh on September 12 at 1:01 a.m.
“I admire the fact that Frank Malone has demonstrated the dignity to stay out of this mess even though he could jump all over it.”
-Brad
I’ve know Frank for many years, and he has always demonstrated professional decorum above and beyond what normally occurs. He is not a “grand-stander” in any way, just a logical, practical, hard-working attorney for his clients, while also holding very practical political views.
I’m really not sure the time is ripe yet for the Prosecutor’s office to get involved in this matter at this time. A balance must be weighed as to the “ripeness” of the situation as it might become a criminal matter vs. standing back until the investigation reveals actionable conduct that indicates a crime has been committed.
The Prosecutor’s Office (as well as Malone) must not be seen as “leaning” in any direction until as many facts as possible can be ascertained, else it will be seen as prejudicial.
bszottlinger on September 12 at 9:14 a.m.
hammer1969:
If I am reading the FBI stats correctly it appears that the yearly average of Officers Feloniously Killed has gone down over the years from around 72 in the late 80’s- to late 90’s to around 51 or so recently. To what would you attribute the downturn, training, less bad guys, or what? That is a very good thing by the way!
spokelooneh:
I completely agree that the prosecutors office must demonstrate to all involved that the office is independent and not prejudiced one way or the other. In my view the prosecutors office must be involved in this type of process from beginning to end so that they can be assured that the evidence they are reviewing is also non-prejudiced. A perfect example is the Zehm case where local law enforcement provided information to Mr. Tucker that concluded Officer Thompson had done nothing wrong. We of course are now waiting for a jury to make the final decision regarding Officer Thompson. Mr. Tucker, because he was apparently relying only upon input from law enforcement, took no action. Now with the federal case the law enforcement position has changed for some of the administrators and investigators involved in the matter. The link provided by Elkay above demonstrates some of the things which can happen if prosecutors rely solely on law enforcement input. Mr. Garvin is now a member of Mr. Tuckers staff. It is interesting to note from the Union-Tribune piece that it was the prosecutor’s own investigator that established the Detectives were not being truthful in their affidavits. My beef is with the validity of the process and obviously I am not alone. There are many other areas in the nation where the local prosecutor is the lead agency in the investigation of matters like the Creach and Zehm cases, and it works well. The big question is how should the system here be changed to protect the interests of all of the parties involved including the public.
Ron_the_Cop:
I fully understand that the likelihood of a special prosecutor is slim to none. One of the big reasons is that community leadership is well aware that this will pass and the public concern is representative of only a small minority of the community.
Elkay on September 12 at 9:47 a.m.
I can only hope that the public interest in this case will not die down with the passage of time. We are all aboard, I’m sure, in wanting to know the truth of both sides before making non-emotional judgments.
Ron_the_Cop on September 12 at 9:52 a.m.
Brad,
I agree. If the commenters in these threads are really seeking positive change in this community, this is what must occur. So instead of beating this horse to death this is something that the people can unifying behind and demand. No matter what their divergent views are, this is about the only way the change sought will occur. The Spokane government has made it very clear it is incapable of bringing the necessary change within SPD because of its co-option/corruption. Our government is so dysfunctional it is incapable of fixing itself.
I’m in support of the many fine men and women who do a good job day in and day out in Spokane. My issues are with the police command staff. Unless the culture within the police command is changed we will continue to have these incidents.
eagleproducer on September 12 at 9:18 p.m.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012880728_apwatroopershooting.html
Talk about eery but flip-flopped circumstances.
I guess it’s okay to be armed on your property if you are a cop.
Ed Byrnes on September 12 at 9:19 p.m.
Any police officer or sheriff’s deputy worthy of the respect of us citizens would actively and public encourage direct citizen review of any and all law enforcement use of lethal or potentially lethal force against anyone.
If there is nothing to hide then why not let us citizens look in on such incidents?
Maintaining a code of silence or being a shill on this blog earns one disrespect. If one wants respect one must earn it - so earn us citizen’s respect.
Sadbuttrue on September 13 at 7:44 a.m.
A civilian review panel cannot solve the problem of a deadly subculture of human time bombs manufactured by training and indoctrination at the police academies. A review panel cannot reform, by itself, the lethal hydra-headed police state that has arisen through stealth and deception without our consent or awareness.
The scope and power of modern policing is just breathtaking in its staggering impact on modern society. The police have a monopoly over the multi-trillion dollar illegal drug industry, which has caused it to mutate into a monstrous and toxic engine of death and mayhem. The police maintain their legal monopoly over this black market through a truly colossal effort at stealth and deception. The constant lethal danger that this has put every policeman in cannot be ameliorated by deifying the murdered police victims, ever more loose Rules of Engagement against civilians, or a toothless civilian review board.
We have sold our liberty and our power for a mess of pottage. We elect politicians who promise to get “tough on crime,” and who appoint judges who disparage “the rights of criminals” and give a nod and wink to police when they willfully violate the constitution. The pastor’s murder demonstrates what an unhinged and unsupervised police state looks like when it “gets tough on crime.”
The solution to this problem is 225 years old. It is right out there in plain sight. It has been neglected and ignored for many years, ever since the Police declared war on us with their War on Drugs. It’s time to dust it off and give it a new look. The Constitution, debated and drafted by some of the most brilliant minds assembled in world history, rightfully placed the police in a subservient and humiliated position. The first six amendments to the constitution harshly restricted the freedom of movement of the police, but they have been all but eroded away by a toothless judiciary which was originally empowered to be the ultimate “civilian review board.” A new emphasis on enforcing this hoary document is the best way out of this fixing the mess caused by the Police State.
bszottlinger on September 13 at 8:23 a.m.
ebyrnes:
I realize that you are a strong advocate for some type of citizens review panel to review situations such as this. My concern however, is that a citizens review panel would only be able to review the information and evidence they are provided by the law enforcement agency. Before any such panel could have any credibility with me I must have confidence that the information they review contains all of the facts and information necessary to reach a fair and independent conclusion. At this point, I personally am not confident that the current “Critical Incident Protocol” contains enough independent checks, balances and transparency that would prevent any bias. For the most part, because they all work together, police officers tend to believe police officers, prosecutors tend to believe police officers and citizens are left with having to rely on the integrity and judgment of each individual involved in the investigative process.
The dynamics of this case causes me concern, the intense media coverage and public interest in this case, much stemming directly from the mishandling, lack of transparency, and ineptness in the Zehm matter. What appears to be a close election just around the corner. An apparent lack of confidence in local leadership. As well as many other factors that make the final conclusions and decisions very difficult for anyone to make. I just pray that all of the judgments made throughout this process are ones that are in no way self-serving and only consider justice for the Creach family, Officer Hirzel, and the public.
scoutster:
I admire your perseverance in trying to get your question answered regarding drug testing, a very legitimate question. I suspect you have in essence received an answer. My question would be if it wasn’t done in this case what steps will the community leadership take to assure that it takes place in the inevitable next one, and all there after?
Brad
Elkay on September 13 at 9:55 a.m.
Based on the rather vitriolic comments dotting this blog, I’m not certain an unbiased citizens review panel could be found — even after all the forensic evidence is presented.
Maybe it’s just this particular blog, but some of the comments I’ve read have me shaking my head in wonderment. I’ll stick with the folks here who suggest stay calm, we don’t have all the facts yet.
Scoutster on September 13 at 12:45 p.m.
Brad..
Yes, I think it should be in the collective bargaining agreement, under the section
Things Any 10 Year Old Knows You Ought to Do, But We Have to Put It In Writing Anyway.
What I am really looking for is an intelligent response to the question from the police defenders.
What is the rationale?
Someone, somewhere convinced people it was a good idea to NOT have fluids from police taken at an event. I’m just asking what arguments they used to get there.
Gramma? Hammer? oneanddone? What’s the reasoning behind this?
bszottlinger on September 13 at 1:45 p.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
I think we can be reasonably assured that the ME took samples of the various body fluids from Pastor Creach and submitted them for examination, and at some point we may know just exactly what was in his system if anything. The question is, will we ever know about Officer Hirzel. I am not in any way condemning Officer Hirzel and I have no reason to suspect anything, nor does the rest of the public. But if I were Officer Hirzel I sure would want the investigators and the public to know I was clean.
Perhaps if a prosecutor were involved at the scene he/she might be in a position, based on the circumstances, and absent consent, to suggest that a search warrant for body fluids might assist the prosecutor in making the final decision.
It isn’t like this is something new and different. As you have pointed out several times it is done as a matter of course elsewhere. I see it as an advantage in gaining public trust and confidence rather then an area the union needs to protect their membership from.
Brad
Ron_the_Cop on September 13 at 2:11 p.m.
Brad,
I’m in agreement with your last several posts. I’m traveling today back to Spokane. If I get a chance I’ll post more specifics.
Ron_the_Cop on September 13 at 5:13 p.m.
Brad and Justice4all,
Justice4all question the Deputy Hirzel “vacation issue” in another thread which was attributed to a statement made by Sheriff Kenzovich by S-R Reporter Tom Clouse. The S-R did run a correction box saying this statement actually should have been attributed to SCSO Sgt. Reagan. I looked for the “correction box” that ran with the print version of the article online and couldn’t find it. I wrote the S-R that if possible they should link to the correction on their Webpage.
City Editor Addy Hatch replied and said the correction can be found here:
Hello -

That clarification is indeed attached to the story it appeared with in print, here:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/03/pastor-buried-in-oklahoma/

I had cc’d Sheriff Knezovich with my email re Justice4All’s question. Sheriff Knezovich replied and I will post it below. I sent Sheriff Knezovich’s reply to Ms. Hatch with the follow note:
Thanks Ms. Hatch,
I did look back through your article archives and couldn’t find this specific URL that has the correction box. I even ran several searches using the words “accuracy watch” and did not hit on this clarification.
As you can see from Sheriff Knezovich’s email there may be information that is new or was buried deep in subsequent articles re the “vacation issue.” I’m sure you are aware this has been a major bone of contention in the S-R debate threads. Your comment threads are the tip of the iceberg and do serve as the pulse of the community’s thinking.
If what the Sheriff has said is true in his email, perhaps in a new followup story this could be given some prominence as the Sheriff suggests on page one above the fold. As you know I have my issues with Sheriff Knezovich but of the LE community leadership, he’s been the most forthcoming in the tragic incident involving the death of Mr. Creach. By protocol this should be SPD investigation and responsibility to keep the public fully informed.
Chief Kirkpatrick has largely been MIA leaving her PIO to deal with the media. Because of past transparency issues with SPD, this allows for wild speculation and fosters suspicion that the investigation into this death will not be complete and thorough. The citizens are demanding transparency.
There are critical details that can’t be release (forensic evidence, witness statements) as their release early could taint subsequent interviews where there is inconsistent forensic evidence and/or witness statements. This requires a level of trust of the public. With the other incidents the public has lost that trust in their LE agencies to do the complete and thorough investigations that are necessary. As of right now the S-R functions as the independent reviewer of the process and should be asking the probing questions of LE officials on behalf of the citizens.
Of course it goes without saying why both Sheriff Bamonte and I have concerns that the S-R is playing softball with Chief Kirkpatrick and her command staff. The culture of the police command staff is at the root of the problems now surfacing with the Otto Zehm case. As I mentioned in one of the debate threads our local government seems incapable of implementing the necessary changes regarding the SPD e.g., the recent expansion of the the OPO authority. In my opinion the City Council abdicated it’s responsibility to the citizens. During the discussions the Council appeared to be in fear of a lawsuit by the Police Guild and were shaking in their boots re “secret” information provided by the City Attorney’s Office that they would not make public. I filed a PDR for this information and was denied because it was “legal advice/work product.” Again who runs this City?
[cont]
Ron_the_Cop on September 13 at 5:13 p.m.
[Continued from above]
If the S-R’s going to headline the Creach and Zehm cases, it’s incumbent that you seek out the root causes and not make Deputy Hirzel and Ofc. Thompson the fall guys/scapegoats for an ineffectual critical incident investigation protocol that all LE agencies can buy into with some independent oversight during the investigative phase- the County Prosecutor, the State AG - btw where has Mr. Tucker been?
Ms. Hatch surprised me with steller reporting by the S-R and hold our elected/appointed accountable. Quit soft peddling on Chief Kirkpatrick!
Ron_the_Cop on September 13 at 5:18 p.m.
Here’s the message I sent to Mr. Clouse with Sheriff Knezovich’s email to me re the Sheriff’s correction of the record as reported by the S-R:
Mr. Clouse,
I sent this email last week re the correction box that ran with your print article suggesting that the box be linked to the online version of your article. I can’t find this correction on the S-R’s web page.
As you can see Sheriff Knezovich is taking issue with this article and the correction that was run. I’m forwarding it to you for your information. Sheriff Knezovich didn’t request this to remain private so I’m assuming it sent it in the open. You can check with him.
Ron Wright
–––- Forwarded message –––-
From: Knezovich, Ozzie
Date: Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: Re correction sidebar in one of Clouse’s articles on Creach case
To: Ron Wright
Never said this, nor did I inferred it, nor did I ever consider it when I found out about the decision to let him go on vacation, nor did I say I approved the vacation: “Knezovich said at a Wednesday afternoon news conference that he approved Hirzel’s vacation partly because the county would have been on the hook to pay for travel costs had Hirzel and his wife canceled.”.
Reporter admitted that he filled in the lines when he asked me a simple yes or no question about contract language. A little much of that going on in this case. It’s a shame the retractions never make it front page above the fold. Now Justice4all claims a (LIE). Maybe he/she should have listened to the news conference and then asked the reporter why the Sheriff was misquoted. Even better perhaps they should have spoken to the me about the issue. I do have a phone and email. I guess it is easier to spread a falsehood than verify the facts behind their claim of a (LIE). To do so is nearly as bad as a lie itself.
For the record I arrived in Philadelphia late the night of Aug 25th, advised of the shooting the morning of Aug 26th, spent Aug 26th on a plane back to Spokane, briefed on incident on Aug 27th, advised of vacation then, advised that investigators where going to try to conduct the interview between the two legs of the vacation over the weekend of the 28th, found out that the interview had not taken place on Aug 30th, press ran with incomplete facts on Sept 1st, reporter misrepresented my statements Sept 2nd, Sept 7 press started correcting misrepresented facts concerning the vacation issue.
Sad part is, that anyone in Spokane County can believe that the Sheriff’s Office would try to hide anything about this case especially after watching how we have conducted ourselves in dealing with employees who do not up hold our standards. Interestingly enough is the fact that 3 months ago the buzz in the media was the fact that I had terminated several employees for a variety of reasons to include unnecessary use of force. The Sheriff’s Office held these people accountable for their actions and the public did not know these incidents even happened. The best predictor of how someone will handle something is how they handle it when no one is watching.
This was a tragic incident made worse by speculation, jumping to conclusion, misrepresentation of information, lack of knowledge concerning the Constitution (police have the same rights as a citizen. A citizen would not have been required to make a statement the night of the incident if they chose not to, the deputy did give a statement the night of the incident. A citizen would have been free to come and go as they pleased after this incident, unless there was probable cause to believe they had committed a crime, then they would have most likely been arrested. The same was true for the deputy that night, to include the possibility of arrest if there was probable cause to do so.).
[Continued]
Ron_the_Cop on September 13 at 5:19 p.m.
[Continuation from above of Sheriff Knezovich’s email to me]
We both know that there is one difference concerning a police officer. If he chose not to give a statement during the criminal investigation, he would have been forced to give a statement during an internal investigation. That statement could not have been used in the criminal investigation (the reason it was necessary for me to avoid doing anything that could have made it look as if I forced this interview to happen). If he refused to give a statement during the internal investigation his employment would have been terminated. Ron, you know this better than those you blog with.
Ron_the_Cop on September 13 at 5:31 p.m.
On a related note the Police Guild has filed a complaint re the recent expansion of the OPO ordinance. I hope the Council doesn’t become shrinking violets on this issue and does counter the Guild’s complaint. From my perspective this is a bad PR move on the part of the Guild.
From the Center For Justice:
http://cforjustice.org/2010/09/13/its-on/
City confirms that the Spokane Police Guild is challenging new Ombudsman ordinance.
In response to a query from the Center for Justice, city spokesperson Marlene Feist today confirmed that the Spokane Police has filed an unfair labor practice (ULP) complaint against the city in connection with the ordinance the city council unanimously passed on June 28th. The grievance has reportedly been filed with the Washington Public Employment Relations Commission (PERC). Feist also reported that the guild has also filed a contract grievance that will be the subject of arbitration.
Ron_the_Cop on September 13 at 5:46 p.m.
Ok KXLY is now breaking with this little strange twist re Deputy Hirzel sideline business with his wife. Gee where’s the S-R on this. Looks like they just got scooped:
http://www.kxly.com/news/24996914/detail.html
SPOKANE — Spokane County Sheriff’s Deputy Brian Hirzel is under investigation, not because of the deadly shooting at the Plant Farm last month, but because of a sideline business where he and his wife may have been selling sex toys online from their home.
It appears that Deputy Hirzel may have been involved in an online business that sells adult novelty items. While peddling sex toys is legal it may be a violation of Spokane County Sheriff’s Office departmental policy and something the department had no idea the Hirzels were doing.
bszottlinger on September 13 at 7:40 p.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
You forgot to ask the Sheriff if they took body fluids.
It’s funny no matter how hard we try to hammer Miranda/Garrity home, people just don’t seem to understand. Maybe this will help people to understand my position that allowing Hirzel to leave may have been a good move.
I understand from the TV Media that Chief Kirkpatrick really isn’t hiding behind her desk, she just happens to be on vacation.
The TV media also quoted Mr. Tucker as saying he hasn’t read much of the press reports he is just waiting for the law enforcement report. WOW! I guess if he just wants to sit back and wait to see what the police say, even though he knows he didn’t get the straight scoop last time, that is his prerogative.
Mr. Malone is calling for a “Special Prosecutor”. I wondered how long that would take.
At least the Sheriff is out front the best he can be with the public, even though this is a PR nightmare and he could have easily hid behind his desk.
One of the big questions in my mind is who decided that Officer Jennifer DeRuwe would make a good PIO.
I am not real knowledgeable about this adult business stuff does that have something to do with BOB.
Now we hear that Officer Jay Mehring is on paid leave, remember him? The case where the trial prosecutor didn’t want to charge, and Mehring was acquitted by the jury. Mehring is now suing the City and Chief Kirkpatrick which has something to do with his paid leave status.
The City Council was warned by the City Attorney’s Office that the union would file a ULP and a contract grievance regarding the Ombudsman, but they ignored it. I think the union will win.
“It looked extremely rocky for the Mudville nine that day”. Aren’t we into extra innings Ms. Mayor and you ain’t got no one who seems to be able to hit the ball.
Brad
bszottlinger on September 13 at 7:44 p.m.
Just one other thing. Do you think we could get Geraldo Rivera in here to open the vault where the super secrete protocol and union contracts are hidden?
Scoutster on September 13 at 8:34 p.m.
I’m reminded of the old science fiction story of The Colossus project, where the computers take over everything and the people don’t know until it’s too late.
I fear we have no checks on the police at all. They seem to be able to do pretty much whatever they want.
Scoutster on September 13 at 8:55 p.m.
On the KXLY story it says:
“Sheriff Knezovich says his investigators now want to talk with anyone who might be familiar with the couple’s online store.”
I’m sure people will be lining up to tell their stories.
Somebody get that man some professional PR help!
BTW, Brad, totally agree with you about DeRuwe. I’m sure she is a good person, but she is totally wrong for the position she has. She is provocative when she doesn’t need to be, evasive to the point of appearing juvenile, and defensive 100% of the time.
Elkay on September 13 at 9:06 p.m.
Perhaps Geraldo could interview Bob.
Anne_Observer on September 13 at 11:13 p.m.
SadButTrue:
The main issue in Spokane is detection of wrongdoing, at which citizen review panels generally do a pretty good job. The real problem in Spokane is that “the foxes are in charge of the henhouse”, i.e., they “investigate” their own controversial incidents, and as a result — which should be no surprise to anybody — they almost invariably absolve the officer of any wrongdoing.
I am not suggesting that a citizen’s review panel will solve the issue all by itself. Your implication that I was is disingenuous. What I am saying, however, is that it is a very important step in the right direction, and without one, we will probably never see justice in this county.
Sadbuttrue on September 14 at 6:41 a.m.
I do not agree that a citizen panel engaged in superficial “detecting wrongdoing” comes even close to fixing the problem of the burgeoning police state.
The cat was let out of the bag by a local Chief of Police upon his confirmation. What he could offer, he said, was “control.” Not protection. Not service.
Control.
When the cop’s primary duty is control of the citizenry, then you have a police state, pure and simple. And police states are all the same, differing only in the degree of control.
No citizen review board can fix North Korea or Burma. Citizen Review boards tend to be very quickly co opted by the police, which have a vested interest in making the boards toothless, or occasionally succeed in turning them into a whitewashing appendage. Just like the present Spokane Ombudsman, which is toothless in the extreme, and about ready to be eradicated altogether by the Police Union grievance.
The simple fact is that the police just have far too much power, and that power is inconsistent with a democratic society.