Spokane7
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September 15, 2010 in City
Sheriff’s Office reports detail pastor’s gun use
In 2008, Creach chased suspect, threatened to ‘blow his head off’
Pastor Wayne Scott Creach not only routinely carried his .45-caliber pistol on his property, he was known by police to hold theft suspects at gunpoint until officers could arrive and once apprehended a fleeing man several blocks away by threatening to “blow his head off.”
Those incidents were among the 21 contacts Spokane County Sheriff’s Office deputies had with Creach or his business, the Plant Farm, over the past five years, according to records obtained by The Spokesman-Review.
On April 14, 2008, for example, Creach saw someone just after 1 a.m. riding a bicycle away from his nursery complex at 14208 E. Fourth Ave. in Spokane Valley with what looked like a plant hanging out of a backpack.
“When the male continued riding away, (Creach) got into his car and drove around the neighborhood looking for the suspect,” according to the Sheriff’s Office report. Creach “found the male near the intersection of 8th and McDonald. (Creach) stopped the male, pointed his .45 caliber pistol at him and told him to get into his car or he would blow his head off.”
The report details one of nine calls for theft or burglary at the sprawling nursery complex. Of those 21 total contacts, some were for simple business checks or civil papers and two were for prowl checks.
It was while on a prowl check Aug. 25 that Deputy Brian Hirzel, who was assigned to the Spokane Valley Police Department, parked his unmarked police car in Creach’s parking lot. The car was backed up to the same merchandise area that had generated many of the calls to deputies over the years.
On that night, Creach again armed himself with the .45-caliber pistol; his family believes it was because he thought Hirzel was yet another thief.
Hirzel told investigators that he saw a shirtless Creach approaching from about 30 feet away with a gun in his hand. Hirzel said he ordered Creach to drop his weapon and the pastor refused. Eventually, Creach put the gun in his waistband but refused Hirzel’s commands to get down on the ground, police officials have said.
Hirzel told investigators that he hit Creach with a police baton that caused him to crumple. Hirzel said Creach reached for his weapon and Hirzel fired when he saw the butt of Creach’s gun.
What’s not clear from the Sheriff’s Office records – because identities of individual deputies were blacked out – was whether Hirzel was ever one of the deputies who responded to the Plant Farm during his two years on the force. Spokane Police Department Lt. Dave McGovern said last week that Hirzel told investigators he did not have any previous knowledge of Creach carrying a weapon at the nursery.
Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich said Tuesday he was unaware that the deputies’ names were not included in the records released this week. Public records requests are handled by one of his lieutenants.
“I think it’s important that we all know who was at those contacts,” Knezovich said, expressing his disappointment that the identity of the deputies was redacted from the reports before they were released.
The Sheriff’s Office also would not release records of the 911 call made by Creach’s wife that night, saying it’s part of an ongoing investigation.
But the records that were made available this week show two other contacts this year, one on July 6 for a noninjury collision, and another on Aug. 3 for a report of someone breaking into two vans and stealing fire extinguishers valued at $50 each.
Deputies responded four times each in 2009 and 2008.
Knezovich said 21 reports in five years did not jump out as a high number. “I wouldn’t say it would be out of the ordinary. The bigger the business, the more contacts,” he said.
The Creach family’s nursery and greenhouse complex spreads across several acres in a predominantly residential part of Spokane Valley.
The most detailed police report came from the incident on April 14, 2008, when Creach chased down the suspected plant thief.
Creach told the deputy that his greenhouse alarm activated that night. He saw the suspect riding away on a bicycle and “told the male to stop but the male continued riding his bike away,” the report states.
After apprehending the man, whose name was redacted, Creach took him in his car back to his home, which sits adjacent to his business.
Alan Creach said he remembers his father telling a different version of the story. Scott Creach told his son that he felt threatened when he confronted the suspected thief.
Scott Creach “pursued him. He cut the guy off. When he cut him off, the guy started to get in the car,” Alan Creach said. “Dad told me when (the suspect) opened the door, he told him, ‘If you get in the car, I’ll blow your head off.’ It was a pretty intense moment.”
When deputies arrived, they found the man in handcuffs on the couch in the living room.
“There were no charges brought against Dad,” Alan Creach said. “The officers didn’t object to what he said.”
But the deputy wrote in the report that Scott Creach “stated he told the male he would blow his head off because the suspect would not have listened had he simply asked him to come with him,” the report states. Creach “also stated he said this to the male since the male was larger and younger than he.”
Closing Geiger: Wise or worrisome? 
Ed Byrnes on September 15 at 1:00 a.m.
So if Mr. Creach was never arrested or given a summons for any of his behaviors it then appears that the Sheriff’s Office is simply releasing this information in an effort to discredit Mr. Creach and distract us from deputy Hirzel, whose honesty is now even more in question because of his selective adherence to policies regarding outside employment and businesses.
Do not be distracted from the main issue at hand, which is law enforcement violently terrorizing us citizens, and come together to demand direct citizen review of any and all law enforcement use of lethal or potentially lethal force against anyone.
oneanddone on September 15 at 5:10 a.m.
God almighty, I despise idiots like this guy. You can bet he’s had his own conflicts with the police. Pull your head out.
DELTA on September 15 at 5:55 a.m.
Sounds like he was helping the cops do their jobs…
me on September 15 at 6:11 a.m.
It’s a wonder he wasn’t shot before, pulling stupid stunts like those.
Spokane_Citizen on September 15 at 6:33 a.m.
What we’re seeing is an pathetically orchestrated PR effort by the Sheriff to cast Mr. Creach as a miscreant and borderline criminal. Information favorable to the department is being fed out in selectively groomed detail….and we’re still not seeing any sort of objective detail released in the current homicide investigation. They’re going to delay the release of that information until after they’ve drug the dead victim’s reputation in the mud for awhile. Frankly, this whole thing is nauseating.
misjustice on September 15 at 6:47 a.m.
HEY! Mr. Clouse, was Mr. Creach EVER charged or arrested?
Scoutster on September 15 at 6:49 a.m.
This is an interesting bit of information. But if Hirzel didn’t know (which he says), it doesn’t really mean anything. It wouldn’t have changed his behavior.
For you legal eagles and 2nd Amendment hobbyists, was it illegal for Creach to have followed the alleged perp and put a gun on him on a public street and handcuff him?
I mean, isn’t that against the law?
DELTA on September 15 at 7:01 a.m.
Were the people Mr. Creach detained charged for theft and trespassing? It seems if he was that much of a threat that the sheriff’s department would have his name flagged in the computer that he is usually armed and patroling his property.
gslbball on September 15 at 7:05 a.m.
No sane person wants police officers killing any person absent dire circumstances. We may never know the true facts in this case.
But it’s troubling as to why, if true, was this “pastor” a gun-toting and aggressive property owner? A pastor chasing down someone with a gun for a property crime as described in the article is foolish, dangerous and arguably criminal. Doesn’t sound like the kind of behavior one would expect from any pastor, or for that matter, most any property owner.
If you have a gun and a police officer tells you to drop the gun–no excuses on that one. There just isn’t. Not saying whether anything after that point was justified here. But drop the gun. Period. No reasonable person would refuse that order. Emphasis on reasonable.
flatfoot1 on September 15 at 7:15 a.m.
The above story states Creach sees a man riding away from his property with what looks like a plant in a backpack. Petty theft is a misdemeanor crime. The story didn’t say Creach saw the man steal the plant which means he had no authority to effect a citizens arrest. Creach then follows the man and under the threat of “I’ll blow your head off” kidnaps the alleged misdemeanor suspect. Which is a felony crime. (Moving a person from one place to another against their will) Or in this case at gun point. My question is, Why wasn’t Creach arrested for kidnapping. Is law enforcement in Spokane that sloppy or are the critics right, this a cover up. One other question, When Creach saw the unmarked police car in his parking lot Why didn’t just call the police and report it. The Dispatcher would have confirmed to him, Creach, that a police officer was on the property. Instead like the above story states Creach choose a confrontation. Which unfortunately lead to his death and will probably ruin the career of a dedicated law enforcement officer.
lewis8457 on September 15 at 7:19 a.m.
Until they release the name of the deputy that reported Creach followed a guy and threatened to blow his head off then I think it is just another story to discredit Mr. Creach. All of us at a time in our lives might have taken the law into our own hands but the fact we are able to blog about it shows we had no intent to kill someone as Mr. Creach never killed anyone.
It is disgusting our own news media takes this story hook line and sinker. Big head line Creach threatened to blow head off.
If you haven’t noticed yet we have heard nothing of the actual investigation.
They are just blowing smoke that is their standard operating procedure.
In my mind Mr. Creach was a hard working honest man that was killed on his own property by a sexual perverted psychopath who happened to be in a police car.
IHike4Fun on September 15 at 7:19 a.m.
He didn’t apprehend the bicyclist it was abduction at gun point. I’m surprised he didn’t do jail time for that.
lewis8457 on September 15 at 7:22 a.m.
Exactly ebyrnes, if Mr. Creach followed a guy in his car and threatened to shoot him in the head I think Mr. Creach would have been arrested if not shot on site.
The police must think we are really stupid.
misjustice on September 15 at 7:23 a.m.
HEY! Mr. Clouse, was Mr. Creach EVER charged or arrested?
WillyPeter on September 15 at 7:27 a.m.
I need a lot more information before I’ll find Hirzel’s, or the sheriff’s “lieutenants’” comments credible. It does seem obvious to me that Mr. Creach is painted as the villain here, when he was killed for defending his property.
If the police thought he broke the law while apprehending a suspect…he would have been arrested…then or later.
And, yes, those of us who believe in the Bill of Rights are pretty much all “2nd Amendment hobbyists.”
MyOpinion on September 15 at 7:30 a.m.
Please don’t be too quick to judge the actions of the sheriffs deputy before the full investigation is completed. If you have never been in their shoes, you have no idea what he was dealing with this night and most nights of his career. The folks he interacts with while you are safe in your home aren’t always “Mary Poppins like” individuals. From preliminary reports it seems the property owner, toting a powerful handgun, was acting like a present day Charles Bronson. This is not the behavior we need from our neighbors and friends, for obvious reasons.
misjustice on September 15 at 7:37 a.m.
HEY! Mr. Clouse, was Mr. Creach EVER charged or arrested?
bszottlinger on September 15 at 7:37 a.m.
Scoutster:
What was the value of the plant? Did perpetrator commit a burglary to get the plant? The plant thief obviously committed trespass because he had CRIMINAL INTENT upon entering the property? Do store detectives at Macy’s chase down shoplifters and hold them for the police in Spokane? Do store detectives at Macy’s have handcuffs? Did Mr. Creach have a carry permit? What was Mr. Creach’s intent in chasing the individual down, was it to hold him for the police? Was the plant thief charged with a crime? If so what crime.
If Granny had charged Mr. Creach with kidnapping I know of a few Personal Injury Lawyers who wouldn’t mind getting some Spokane County money.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020
Brad
DHF on September 15 at 7:38 a.m.
If someone comes on your property and steals from you do you not have the right to make a Citizens Arrest. What I see is an effort by the Sherrif’s Office to make the victim out to be a wacko gun toting business owner. I smell COVERUP. DHF
maria on September 15 at 7:45 a.m.
Oh, so I guess he deserved to die, right Mr. Clouse? He reminds me of my own dad. People do have a right to protect their property. This article is BS and useless. Shame on you.
lewis8457 on September 15 at 7:46 a.m.
myopinion you just judged Mr. Creach by stating a lie, he never pointed the gun at the cop by the cops own admission. He wasn’t waving the gun around like Charles Branson.You can belittle Mr. Creachs character but I should take your opinion and not judge the cop. You sound like a cop with logic like that, either that or Mary Verner.
maria on September 15 at 7:47 a.m.
And WHY is the article on the front page when yesterday’s article on HIRZEL’S SECRET SEX TOY BUSINESS was hidden in the back of the paper?
Scoutster on September 15 at 7:51 a.m.
Brad..
Is the value of the item relevant? Does it matter to the law if it was a $2.00 plant or a $20K watch? Is that where the felony language is important? Is it the intent of the law that I, a humble lay citizen, would be able to discern if an act is a misdemeanor or a felony?
If I steal a shirt at Macy’s and I’m caught outside the store (I assume such an event is a misdemeanor) do I have to wait, or can I just flip off the store dick and keep walking? And, if I do walk and I’m caught, does that make it a different offense?
Thanks.
remember_alamo on September 15 at 7:51 a.m.
I’ve had Officers make a report that said things that never happened and destroy evidence. So the report about “get in or I’ll shoot may or may not be accurate” the officer is reporting second hand information. I believe our country is worth defending. Scott Creach died doing that. If no one is willing to do that we will end up like mexico where the gangs and drug dealers etc. have taken over.
misjustice on September 15 at 8:06 a.m.
Since Mr. Clouse won’t answer me, and now when I attempt to re post my question it’s blocked [ must be considered spam ], I’ll ask anyone on the SR writing staff; Was Mr. Creach EVER arrested or charged?
I’d think that since this is the second time that the story has run, and the question was asked on the other thread, that SR reporters could have included the information of any arrest of Mr. Creach in the updated story [ of course provided the SR had the information ]. I think other readers, beside myself, want to know if in any of the police contacts reported by the SR, did any of the reports show that Mr. Creach had been arrested or charged?
Thank you.
Scoutster on September 15 at 8:06 a.m.
Lewis..
You would think local LE would consider that.
I think maybe they do. I’m coming around to the position that our local police relish the idea of lots of citizens being antagonistic toward them. They love to dress up in their BDUs and call out SWAT. They live for this. Go look at the Spokane Police Guild website. And who knows how much roid rage, group think and self fulfilling behavior is at play.
They seem to be missing no opportunity to piss us off. They need to get on the ground.
lewis8457 on September 15 at 8:09 a.m.
yes it is odd how the story of a sexual perverted deputy that gunned a man down at arms length was on page 7 and a story trying to discredit a up standing pastor and business owner is on the front page.
me thinks a bit of favortism to the deputy from SR? Maybe SR sees nothing wrong with a deputy watching kiddie porn in shift?
ThinkItThrough on September 15 at 8:11 a.m.
Read the story again before you blame the Sherriff’s office for this rather skewed story. It’s the newspaper, not the Sherriff, to blame for this one. Even the titlte is misleading, calling it a “Sherriff’s Office report”, but when you read the story you find it’s actually information obtained through a public records request. Sure, the Sherriff’s office may have compiled the information, technically making it a report from that office, but it was not compiled and released as part of their investigation. It was the Spokesman who requested the information and then presented in a form to make Mr. Creach appear to be a vigilante when, in fact, he was just exercising his rights to protect his property, which is likely how law enforcement officials saw it in the past since he was never charged with any crimes. The newspaper is trying to paint both Mr. Creach and Deputy Hirzel as bad guys - it’s good business and will sell more newspapers.
notanidiot101 on September 15 at 8:17 a.m.
Lewis, I only pray that you don’t have any children (that claim you as a parent) so that your pathetic disgusting legacy can live after you are dead and forgotten.
misjustice on September 15 at 8:21 a.m.
Nope, Notanidiot; I have a feeling that Lewis is going to stay right here and continue to fight the powers that be. And so am I. And so are many other citizens. It’s up to us to press for the change that we want to see, and we’re going to do it. Yeah, you betcha! ; )
bszottlinger on September 15 at 8:27 a.m.
Scoutster:
The value of the item may be significant in establishing whether the theft constituted a misd or felony. Where the item was taken from is also significant in establishing whether or not a felony burglary took place. I am not at all familiar with Washington State Case Law but generally just entering a fenced area not open to the public at the time, could constitute a burglary.
If you went in to Macy’s and stole a shirt likely a misd. shoplifting If you stole a diamond ring it could be charged as a felony theft. Whether a shirt or a diamond ring the store dicks have a right to use reasonable force to apprehend you. You might try and flip them off next time and see what happens.
One of the big issues is what constitutes “reasonable Force”. Is it reasonable for a 74 year old man concerned about his own safety arming himself prior to confronting a thief. That question can and will be argued both ways.
Is it reasonable for the victim of an armed robbery to shot the robber in the back as he is running from the store?
What is reasonable and what isn’t is in most cases left up to a jury of 12.
You might want to read the entire Washington Code Statute but here are some definitions.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.010
I also need a mailing address from you so I can bill this out. :)
Brad
de3 on September 15 at 8:28 a.m.
It is clear that his property was involved in vandalism and theft many times, and it is also likely that many instances were never reported to the Sheriff.
Years ago our neighborhood was subjected to constant vandalism and theft for more than a year. Every other home on our street was a direct victim - including stolen property dumped in yards, home and vehicle windows shot, mail stolen, dogs shot with pellet guns, and malicious mischief.
The only time the Sheriff ever responded was when my neighbor called in an illegally parked car - and they were on scene in 15 minutes to write a revenue generating ticket.
Eventually you give up calling the Sheriff because they never respond. None of us or neighbors ever took up arms. But I can completely understand the frustration of being a victim of crime, repeatedly, and the official powers doing nothing. The lack of response from the Sheriff definitely causes people to give up calling the Sheriff - and can lead to people taking protection of their own property in to their own hands.
polly on September 15 at 8:30 a.m.
Selling sex toys doesn’t make you a pervert…sheesh! You people need to loosen up in the bedroom!
Anyone here ever shot a .45? I have. If one was pointed at me, I wouldn’t be very happy about it.
Who on earth steals plants? I mean, really. How much meth can you get for a marigold? It’s interesting that this is a pastor who obviously doesn’t preach forgiveness. Is a plant worth someone’s life?
I’m honestly not on anyone’s side. But some of you need to look at the whole picture before you go making decisions.
lewis8457 on September 15 at 8:35 a.m.
idiot101 so i am to just to let the cop shoot me on my own property? and i have no opportunity to protect myself. we can see with mr. creach they will shoot to kill. what country do you live in that you will allow authority to kill you and or your family on your own property w/out a fight. you sound like a coward.
i dont want to live in country where i cannot question authority when it is my life at stake. and i am sure all the men and women that have died for my freedoms feel the same way.
maria on September 15 at 8:37 a.m.
Creach had every right to question the stranger on his property. I doubt he would have knowingly fought with a cop. What the hell would the point of that be? It seems counter-productive to the landowner’s request for added patrols around the property.
I think the cop/dildo-dealer became angry when he got caught looking at porn/playing with his baton. He couldn’t have any witnesses to that.
JayNW on September 15 at 8:37 a.m.
you can threaten to shoot or shoot someone if your life is in danger, but you do not have a legal right to shoot, or threaten to shoot someone for a misdemeanor plant theft.
iwgthft on September 15 at 8:52 a.m.
So why go park, in the dark of night, trespassing on someone’s property, without the courtesy of notifying them that you’re there, especially if they are known to respond to trespassers with a gun (and the “fellow officer” rule says that when one officer knew, they all knew, as this cop shoud have - if he didn’t that surely demonstrates a serious lack of communication within the police department).
Despite all the prepared versions by the police, the truth is more likely that this officer sitting in his unmarked car in the dark and after pretending he was a visiting federal judge from San Francisco fell asleep and was startled awake by the arrival of the landowner - the officer then reacting in a paniced state, and without the time to rationally consider his actions, killed an innocent man.
Not to worry. In Spokane County he will be wholly exonerated and cleared of any wrongdoing, like every other cop here who needlessly and kills somebody.
cpd805 on September 15 at 8:55 a.m.
Since everyone in this forum seems morbidly fond of conspiracy theories…..here is one:
The Creach family started out as wanting to reserve judgement, saying that the Deputy is also having to live with this incident and going through his own hell. Enter the civil litigation attorneys whispering into the Creach family’s ears. All of the sudden “MURDER!!!!” Are there attorneys whispering “posture yourselves for a civil suit” in their ears?
Just a conspiracy theory….you guys should be able to relate.
Albert on September 15 at 8:57 a.m.
Mr. Clouse, it well appears that you are ill-informed and not presenting documented facts - just innuendos. This is not only unprofessional reporting, but lacks integrity. Please get the documented facts before coming to the aid of a murderer, and slandering the reputation of a man that was well respected within the community.
LisaB on September 15 at 8:58 a.m.
What if Mr. Creach was reaching for the gun to put it on the ground? Maybe he realized after he had been hit with a baton that he should comply with this officer’s request. The sad thing is that we are probably never going to learn the whole truth to this story.
I still say that the policies and procedures for the police in this town need to be evaluated by an ombudsman.
effrepublicans on September 15 at 9:00 a.m.
@Lewis… seriously dude you need to stop with the whole conspiracy theory bs. Every post of yours is always about some conspiracy committed by someone else. You’re starting to sound like Mel Gibson. Just because the author of the article didn’t provide the responding deputies name to the 2008 incident doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It greatly appears that Creach has taken the law into his hands many times before whether it be on his property or not and has threatened the use of deadly force by either saying he will shoot someone or showing his weapon. The past incidents involving Mr. Creach very much point towards a potential attitude that he likely had the night he died. This is information that will be used (rightly so) for any investigation into Mr. Creach’s death as you should know as you have claimed to have worked for the SPD. Also, you should know by having worked for the SPD that if someone approaches an officer with a gun that officer is going to have them relieve themselves of that weapon. Its standard operating procedure and doesn’t mean that the situation is resolved once the person holsters the gun in the back of their pants. It doesn’t matter if the person is pointing the gun at the officer or not. If its out in the open you are going to be asked to relieve yourself of that weapon.
Secondly, it now seems completely absurd that you once were working for the SPD (claimed to at least) but now you are advocating for vigilantism against officers of the law and the very people you used to work with? I think you may want to explain the reason why you left SPD since it appears that you may be feeling a bit jilted about it and hence all of your police bashing comments and conspiracy theories.
cpd805 on September 15 at 9:01 a.m.
Delta: ” It seems if he was that much of a threat that the sheriff’s department would have his name flagged in the computer that he is usually armed and patroling his property.”
That is a good point. Yes, they are called PIN entries and are attached to addresses. However, a PIN entry will not pop up unless you are dispatched that THAT address. If he was watching for prowlers reported from down the road a bit, that PIN (if there was one) would not necessarily be made known.
notanidiot101 on September 15 at 9:07 a.m.
Maria: How could you possibly think that Creach did not know it was a cop?? After he identified himself as a cop, he stood there, right in front of Creach, IN FULL UNIFORM. WTH??
Lewis: Why would you feel like you have to defend yourself on your own property?? You would have to do everything in this order:
1. call police for help
2. when they arrive, approach them with a gun
3. do not identify yourself as the prop owner, or the one that called
4. refuse to put down your gun when told to do so by a uniformed officer (did you think the cop was there to steal a $5 plant??)
5. be argumentative and plain defiant
I am not a coward. I am alive and living a happy life because I adhere to societys rules and laws, and I am not stupid or defiant
Oh, and to the rest of you that think it is OK to “plug” a cop because they might be on your property, trying to help you with the very thing that you asked for help with: Good Luck to the rest of us!!!!
monkeyman on September 15 at 9:11 a.m.
It somewhat explains (to me) why the pastor’s son didn’t initially come out speaking against the police more forcefully. Maybe the pastor’s family saw it coming sooner or later.
Also, .45 caliber is the largest caliber one can legally buy. It is powerful, and meant to kill by making a huge hole in your target. A 22 caliber would have worked as well as a deterrent.
I would like to know if the Pastor was also loading hollowpoint bullets, info not yet known? If so, I can safely say that he was not quite a man of peace and love.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.230
“It is a gross misdemeanor to aim a firearm “whether loaded or not, at or towards any human being”.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29#Washington
maria on September 15 at 9:11 a.m.
notanidiot101:
You trust what the cop said? Of course he would say that. Also, he seems to be somewhat dishonest by not reporting his side sex toy business to his superiors, as required.
maria on September 15 at 9:14 a.m.
monkeyman: Even the cop said the old man never pointed the gun at him.
maria on September 15 at 9:15 a.m.
Where did you hear that he was in uniform, idiot?
davidw on September 15 at 9:18 a.m.
@misjustice:
Your question about whether any criminal charges were filed against Pastor Creach is answered within the article.
Thanks for reading The SR,
David Wasson
Deputy City Editor
bszottlinger on September 15 at 9:18 a.m.
The cardinal rule for investigating any alleged crime involving law enforcement personnel:
Never believe the cop, never believe the witnesses, and never believe the victim, until there is substantial corroborative evidence clearly establishing the truth.
gslbball on September 15 at 9:20 a.m.
Lewis–if you take a gun out on your property to confront someone, encounter a policeman parked in a publicly accessible parking lot, approach that policman with your gun in hand, are aware that a policeman has just ordered you to drop your gun, and you do not cooperate by dropping your gun–you very well might get shot in that situation. And if not killed, you might go to jail. Property rights do not allow you to point a gun at or shoot at police officers under any circumstance. Common sense 101.
Rethink the steps you might take if you ever confront someone on your property who is a trespasser. You can’t shoot or kill them unless they have broken into your home or your life is in imminet danger–if you do shoot at or kill them absent such a circumstance, you will be charged with murder or assault. If someone is on your property trespassing in the middle of the night–call the police–you may not like to do so, but that is your only sane option. Don’t take a gun out to confront a trespasser–-you are asking for trouble if you do, pure and simple–you or them might be killed or seriously injured. You might even hurt or kill someone who was nothing more than a bystander or neighbor.
And I still canot figure why a purportedly religious man acted as this fellow did. Completely foolish, and not what any “pastor” would or should do. Not saying the officer’s actions were justified until we know the facts, if ever. But foolish and irresponsible conduct on the part of this pastor.
There needs to be some serious explaining by both sides in this matter.
maria on September 15 at 9:33 a.m.
gslbball: It was an unmarked police car. The pastor had a right to carry a gun on his property. There is no proof that the cop identified himself as such. Was he in uniform? We haven’t been informed of that.
jddavis on September 15 at 9:38 a.m.
Notanidiot101, your scenario is misleading…use facts!
Lewis: Why would you feel like you have to defend yourself on your own property?? You would have to do everything in this order:
1. call police for help
**Rev Creach didn’t place a call to law enforcement
2. when they arrive, approach them with a gun
3. do not identify yourself as the prop owner, or the one that called
**This is the deputy’s story
4. refuse to put down your gun when told to do so by a uniformed officer (did you think the cop was there to steal a $5 plant??)
**He put the gun in his waistband, according to the deputy. A sign of de-esculation
5. be argumentative and plain defiant
**again, this is what the duputy said
gslbball on September 15 at 9:46 a.m.
@Maria–unmarked car? I’ve seen unmarked cars and they look just like police cars. Has there been any evidence the officer was in anything but a standard issue unmarked police cruiser?
I understand from reports that the officer was wearing a standard police issued uniform.
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Family-of-killed-pastor-irate-over-lack-of-answers-101678538.html
And the right to carry a gun on one’s property is not the issue–-what you do with it is governed by the law and common sense. Common sense seems to have been abandoned here.
andrewz on September 15 at 9:51 a.m.
@Maria: To follow up on @gslbball’s comment, we’ve reported that Hirzel was wearing a uniform.
• http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/aug/27/sheriff-promises-full-and-complete-investigation-s/
• http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/aug/27/valley-officer-kills-pastor-at-nursery/
maria on September 15 at 9:52 a.m.
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Deputy-in-Spokane-pastor-shooting-investigated-for-online-sex-toy-web-site-102832589.html
Since we’re posting articles from King5 in Seattle.
maria on September 15 at 9:53 a.m.
Andrew Zahler: Well then, I take it all back. The old guy deserved to die.
zelda on September 15 at 10:10 a.m.
All this swinging and swaying — one day it’s the cops’ turn, the next day it’s the Creach’s turn.
I’m all for fairness, but gratuitous evenhandedness, when the evidence tips decisively in one direction, doesn’t lead us to truth. Let’s face it, the cops’ influence almost always exceeds the power of their arguments.
bdr on September 15 at 10:12 a.m.
I agree with Creach son…….the HYPER TRAINING OF POLICE IS BEYOND REASONABLE .
I have lived thru a situation exactly like Rev Creach
and I too threatened a young kid with a gun….and a knife.
Why would I do such a unreasonable thing?
The kid threatened my life…with cars and motorbikes in my own driveway. at 60-80 mph spraying rocks and skidding like a race drifter and shooting a 22 handgun.
The cops came…..I was severely reprimanded cuffed…..and all guns and knifes removed. The cops WOULDN’T believe ME
even after I showed them a my car was destroyed totaled
by the kid…..and the entire front of my house was rock pelted
glass broken……and 11-22 bullet holes in my fence.
I have never been so insulted in my entire life after that event.
still (RED FACED TODAY)
But good news…….I warned the cops this kid was on a collision course with death…..and 3 months after my run in with him.
The kid was severely injured in a car bike accident (racing)
his is leg gone and part of his hand is gone now.The only thing he rides now is a wheel chair at 22 years old dismembered for life.
http://www.kptv.com/news/18048621/detail.html
409 on September 15 at 10:15 a.m.
gslbball -
First off Mr. Creach Never pointed his gun or shot at Officer Hirzel. It is perfectly legal to carry a gun on your property as well as in public. It is however, illegal to conceal a weapon in public without a concealed weapons permit.
Ron_the_Cop on September 15 at 10:21 a.m.
Lisa B,
You hit on what I said in another post. Again we need to reserve judgment/conclusions until all the facts are in. My concern as Brad’s is this critical investigation being handled in a professional manner to get to the truth. I have issues of trust with SPD, it’s police command staff and with Co Prosecutor Steve Tucker being MIA again.
With that said as I explained in another thread from the news accounts, this appears to be a chain of events with a tragic outcome.
No actionable trespass by Deputy Hirzel. Technically yes, but there is a presumed permission for LE to trespass for security checks of business (Locked fenced in area maybe not) This is normal SOP. Should the owner be notified - maybe.
Did Creach have the right to defend his property? Yes. Can he detain violators using reasonable force? Yes. Can he be armed on his own property? Yes. Can he confront potential thieves and trespassers and point weapon at them? Yes. Is this brandishing/threatening? No - not necessarily. Depends on state of mind of Creach. Can he shoot an unarmed thief posing no immediate thread to his live or others? No.
Deputy Hirzel parked in unmarked unit. Was his report writing light on or just computer screen? Was his night vision impaired? What was lighting in parking lot? We don’t know what departmental uniform he was in. There could be some initial confusion, if Hirzel was in BDUs. Is his personal business activity related to this incident? No. Perhaps not informing the department of this business if legally required goes to his credibility.
Apparently Deputy Hirzel not familiar with business owner and that he will likely be armed on his property. As someone suggested there could have been notice in the dispatch computer, however since Hirzel was there to watch another address and hadn’t been dispatch there, this probably wouldn’t have come up.
Creach approaches unmarked unit with gun at his side. No round in chamber but Hirzel doesn’t know that. Hirzel sees Creach approaching. Hirzel draws weapon to cover Creach and orders him to drop gun. Creach fails to comply.
Deputy Hirzel then exist unit continuing to cover Creach with orders to drop gun. Creach fails to comply. Creach puts gun in rear waist baind. Deputy Hirzel at some point orders Creach to the ground. Creach fails to comply. Deputy Hirzel then strikes with baton and Creach starts to go down. In my mind I would have continued to cover Creach until backup arrived instead of using baton to bring subject to the ground. Did Hirzel baton action precipitate the tragic outcome? Creach makes move for gun and Hirzel fires one round killing Creach.
What was patrol staffing at this time? What was ETA of backup units? Does the current critical incident protocol get blood from the officer?
From Creach’s standpoint he has the right to defend his property. He goes out to check on this car his property. Up until the point Deputy Hirzel exits the unit there can be an identification issue. Once Deputy Hirzel exits the unit does Creach recognize this is a police officer? We don’t know. Does Creach say anything about being the owner of the property? Does Creach hear this? We don’t know.
Supposition on my part is Creach is annoyed he’s being ordered to drop his gun for fear of damaging it and does not initially comply. He puts gut in rear waist band. Once Hirzel strikes him with baton, Creach begins to comply but a little slow because of his age and still annoyed about being ordered to ground.
Lisa B - I think at this point Creach is removing gun to put it on the ground. At this point Hirzel misinterprets this action as Creach is going for his gun and fires at Creach.
[Continued]
fredjames on September 15 at 10:27 a.m.
Some posters have the idea that a preacher is somehow supposed to be a pushover? Remember the first settlers to this land were preachers who helped tame the wild west long prior to law and order. If you have been to Gonzaga High School and somehow think that a priest is a easy mark, you are sadly mistaken. Read your history , most men of cloth are very good boxers, and fighters, they don’t take crap from criminals!
Creach was assisting with the polcing of his private property and Herzil is the coward here !
Ron_the_Cop on September 15 at 10:28 a.m.
[Continued from above]
What we have here is a property owner exercising his rights to defend his property, an initial misidentification by each other, Creach annoyed by officer’s commands and is slow to comply. Creach at this point doesn’t tell officer in slow and methodical manner what he’s going to do with his weapon.
Ok this is my supposition until all the facts are in. My concern remains with SPD’s ability to conduct a complete, thorough and objective investigation. Further the handling of the vacation matter doesn’t instill my confidence in the decision making ability of those involved in investigation.
I fully understand the nature of interviewing officers after a critical incident having been a police union president responsible for seeing members rights were respected. On the other hand I would have expected Deputy Hirzel to have been placed on administrative leave, his vacation canceled (Yes, I know Brad, re impact on voluntary interview), and told him to remain available. I would have reimbursed Hirzel for his plane ticket if it was nonrefundable.
I also have issues with the 48 hours hands off policy re interviewing the officers involved. This is something that needs to be renegotiated after this incident investigation is debriefed.
The principal issue here is the lack of public confidence/trust in the ability of local LE to do the necessary investigation because of the previous incidents. Unfortunately critical information re forensic evidence/witness statements can’t be immediately released as this information may be necessary to reinterview the involved officers re inconsistencies in their initial statements. If this information is released before these interviews are done, it could taint these interviews.
This is why I fault Steve Tucker for being MIA. His office could be that independent oversight agency to ensure those doing the investigation are doing a credible professional investigation. If you’re not involved in the process when presented with the police reports you have to take them at face value to make your decisions whether the shooting was within policy and or beyond and was it criminal in nature. As we know from the Zehm case the police reports were deficient. Police statements were inaccurate.
Further by protocol this was SPD’s investigation. Chief Kirkpatrick has been MIA too. I agree with Brad that Kirkpatrick is in over her head. Sheriff Knezovich has been placed in the default face person for this investigation. This should have been Chief Kirkpatrick’s role.
See the email that Sheriff Knezovich sent me that I posted in another thread:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/10/kirkpatricks-protocol-lecture-missed-the-point/?comments#c191353
Det. Ron Wright (Retired)
Riverside PD, CA
heathensheart on September 15 at 10:33 a.m.
Ok, for the people that automatically assume that the entire police force is crooked and Creach is not insane you should all probably stop watching so many conspiracy theroy movies and tv shows. I know people that know Creach and he is not that sane of person. I,m sorry but I could really care less that the guy was a pastor because if it had been a guy that wasn’t a pastor, or priest, or nun for that matter there would not have been such a big commotion about it. It would of had a mention on the news when it happend and then it would back page news after that. And as far as the officer’s wife having an online sex toy store who really cares, he more than likely doesn’t have a dang thing to do with it. I mean seriously for the people that think the news is just making Creach look bad if that was the case they would have never brought up the officer’s wifes sex toy online store.
davidw on September 15 at 10:37 a.m.
A couple of comments posted by maria have been deleted because they contained links to a website that displayed Deputy Hirzel’s home address.
The specific comments, though a bit off topic imo, were considered fair game. The concern on our part was the link. The software we use doesn’t enable us to edit comments once posted — so there’s no ability to remove the link but leave the comment intact. The only choice is to delete the entire post.
Thanks for reading The SR,
David Wasson
Deputy City Editor
andjusticeforall on September 15 at 10:39 a.m.
@misjustice…i checked & mr creach has absolutly no record in the state of washington, not even a parking ticket…
check it out…
http://dw.courts.wa.gov/
maria on September 15 at 10:39 a.m.
You mean that ONLINE SEX TOY STORE that HIRZEL is being investigated for not reporting to his supervisors? His name is on the business license but he has nothing to do with it. Right.
spokanada on September 15 at 10:43 a.m.
Firstly,If unmarked cars are easily recognized as cop cars then what is the point of having them?
Secondly, citizens can buy those unmarked cars at auction after the police are done with them.
bszottlinger on September 15 at 10:48 a.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
I concur with your trespass assessment if the evidence demonstrates that there was no malicious or criminal intent on the part of the officer to be on the property. Hopefully the investigation will resolve that issue. I have found that there is a tendency on the part of law enforcement and pro-law enforcement people to except as fact an officers statement that he/she had a lawful purpose for being where they were. I can site several examples where the officer offered up his lawful purpose in a statement and it was later determined that his/her true purpose was other then lawful. I am certainly not saying that is the case here. However it is incumbent on the investigators to make an effort to establish that Officer Hirzel’s purpose for being on the property was lawful and such investigation should go well beyond the officers statement.
I don’t believe anyone at this point, and I’m waiting for the facts to become public. I share your concern that given recent history all of the facts will ever come out.
Brad
zelda on September 15 at 10:54 a.m.
All good points, Ron. Does anyone know if the file footage that KREM shows when updating the stories shows Creach’s body? There is one angle of the video where it looks like someone’s feet are under or near the open front driver’s-side door of a cop car. Can’t remember if the vehicle is a squad car or unmarked cop car.
As many have noted, we don’t have the forensic evidence (and we may never have it, given Tucker’s got the case now) but I wonder what where Creach’s body lay in relation to Hirzel’s vehicle.
I have an uneasy feeling that Creach came up on Hirzel from behind and startled him. The sequence of events related by Hirzel is way too procedural to be believable — it’s like a slo-mo replay of what *should* have happened according to the manual, not what really happened. Could be as simple as Creach surprising Hirzel from behind and Hirzel fired through the open window of his car.
circle8 on September 15 at 10:59 a.m.
I have read the comments and am amazed at the level headed thinking by some authors. A couple however should quit drinking their “kool-aid” so early in the morning. Like someone said I too hope at least one does not have any children.
The amount and type of “law enforcement contacts” for anyone who has been in business that many years are normal. Also normal is a property-business owner’s desire or right or habit of using a weapon, just in case, to protect themselves. Having said that, what is NOT normal is chasing a “POSSIBLE” thief and having lost sight of the person to continue to search for him in the middle of the night. Roaming the street at night, in a vehicle with a firearm is not a smart move for ANYONE especially a citizen who is agitated. When he located “someone” he ordered that person, using the weapon as authority, to get in his own vehicle and transported him to his business. Can you say stupid move? Creach was elderly, driving a vehicle, holding a weapon and had a POSSIBLE suspect handcuffed and sitting in his vehicle while they drove back to his business. Creach stated the “suspect” was bigger than himself. If that person was violent or really scared he could have overpowered Creach, shot him with his own weapon and could have claimed he was acting in self defense because he had just been kidnapped by a nut. Handcuffs are not fool proof and they make a very good weapon. I am not speaking ill of the dead but we are NOT talking about some serious action on his part. Also do you know why law enforcement has a barrier between the prisoner section of a vehicle and the front seat? PROTECTION which Creach had none, as in ZERO.
First the “possible crime was a petty theft (misdemeanor). He was driving around the neighborhood with a weapon looking for someone, second he exhibited the firearm in a threatening manner (I’ll blow your head off) and then kidnaps and handcuffs that person by moving him to another location. He has committed Kidnap, Unlawful Detention, Unlawful display of a weapon, (remember he is no longer protecting his property because he has been roaming around the neighborhood) and a few other crimes. I am sure the responding deputy lectured him on his stupidity and what “could” happen to him if someone pushed for the charges.
There is no doubt this whole thing was a tragedy and only one living person know what actually happened however given background about Creach and his apparent handling of other incidents involving a weapon and aggressive style the statements by the deputy sounds reasonable. This is again an excellent example of why citizens must be very careful about taking the law into their own hands. Remember 911 is on all phones. Given your location and how busy your police department is at that time the response time may vary but the alternative could be a funeral. I am sure the Creach family would love to have Grandpa around right now.
Ron_the_Cop on September 15 at 11:06 a.m.
Zelda,
I don’t know re the KREM report. Your “procedural” comment has merit. The whole baton thing seems out of place to me. There’s too much time eaten up with this back and forth with commands of the officer. The wife didn’t hear commands from the officer but did hear her husband shout. Whether she was in a position to hear what the officer said is unknown?
Your speculation may have merit. I can see where Creach surprised Deputy Hirzel and Hirzel reacted instinctively. I can see this happening. We’ll have to wait for the forensics and statements with time line from the dispatch recordings.
Ron_the_Cop on September 15 at 11:09 a.m.
Zelda,
Your scenario could be confirmed re gunpowder residue in and around the window area of the police unit if the fatal shot was fired from within the unit.
bszottlinger on September 15 at 11:10 a.m.
Circle8:
One juror votes “unreasonable”.
bszottlinger on September 15 at 11:18 a.m.
Dave Wasson:
You wouldn’t happen to have a copy of the “Protocol” and the union agreement sitting around somewhere you could post would you?
Brad
zelda on September 15 at 11:23 a.m.
Ron — and this all assumes that Hirzel kept the scene “as is,” didn’t interfere with any of the physical evidence before the responders got there and the investigators also dealt with an intact incident scene.
Ed Byrnes on September 15 at 11:26 a.m.
First let’s recognize that police violence is an emotionally charged issue in any community. With that recognition let’s agree to refrain from making ad hominem attacks against each other because it diminishes the value of community oriented forums like this one.
oneanddone: Although your ad hominem attach against me does not deserve a response I will tell you that I spent nearly two decades working in criminal justice with gang involved youth, not wannabes but the ones who shoot at each other, and as such have worked very closely with numerous officers, deputies and other members of the law enforcement and corrections community. Since then I have spent over a decade and a half as a consultant to: State and local law enforcement agencies, the U.S. Attorney’s Office, the U.S. Dept. of Justice and numerous state and tribal courts. I also hold a Ph.D. and I teach statistics at the graduate level, so I am not the only one who trusts my critical thinking ability. I trust that I have established that my head is not inserted anywhere it needs to be pulled out from. From my experience with high and low quality officers and agencies I have repeatedly observed that law enforcement transparency and accountability strengthen the bonds between community members and their law enforcement personnel, hence my continuing advocacy for this.
Lewis: From our postings we clearly agree with each other most of the time. I share and understand your frustration with our local law enforcement officers, who through their code of silence have collectively discarded the respect of most of us citizens. Nonetheless you and I want a more peaceful Spokane so peace is what we must advocate for - when it is most difficult to do so is the time it is most vital to.
notanidiot101: First off I regret that you were subjected to an ad hominem attack based on your moniker. As you can see above I advocate only for peaceful and transparent means to solve our policing problem in Spokane. What I hope you will understand is that many in our community are fed up with being terrorized by law enforcement so advocating for law enforcement transparency and accountability is also advocating for a more peaceful Spokane.
Ron: Unfortunately most of the evidence that we have, absent some minimal and basic forensic evidence, are the statements of the perpetrator of the shooting. Even more regrettably, this deputy’s demonstrated behavior of selectively following his agency’s policies serves to diminish his credibility.
polly: I absolutely agree with you that the sale to or use of sex toys between consenting adults is no sign of perversion at all. The issue with Hirzel’s side business is his selective disclosure despite agency policy and we should not become distracted by the nature of the business.
Thank you all for indulging me in this longer than usual post and sharing of my observations.
Ed Byrnes
Racingmom on September 15 at 11:28 a.m.
I have checked and can find no arrest or charges of any nature for Pastor Creach - not even a traffic infraction.
lewis8457 on September 15 at 11:57 a.m.
effrepublicans hey dude on never once said I worked for the SPD I worked in the safety building as a sub contractor. It is pear and oranges bro you can say there was a incident and I can say there wasn’t and since the sheriff wont release a name to prove it was a incident then I guess we are at odds.
I don’t know what town you live-in bro but in Spokane the cops lie to us all the time, in fact we recently found out if the cop does not swear on a stack of bibles he doesn’t have to tell the truth (per Karl Thompson) and I am supposed to not think everything they say is a lie? Have you ever heard the story about the boy who called wolf? Same damn thing bro.
You might want to go back and reread the news stories in them the deputy stated Creach never once pointed the gun at him, so your telling me bro that a guy cant carry a gun on his person on his own property? If that is the case dude we are all in a lot trouble. I don’t have to think conspiracy theories they are alive and well here in Spokane.
Thoreau on September 15 at 12:08 p.m.
A song from the Seattle band Pearl Jam, written years ago:
“Glorified G”
got a gun, fact i got two
that’s ok man, cuz i love god
glorified version of a pellet gun
feels so manly, when armed
glorified version of a pellet gun
glorified version of a pellet gun
glorified version of a pellet gun
glorified version of a pellet gun
don’t think, dumb is strength
never shot at a living thing
glorified version of a pellet gun
feels so manly, when armed
glorified version of a pellet gun
glorified version of a pellet gun
glorified version of a pellet gun
glorified version of a…
always keep it loaded
always keep it loaded
always keep it loaded
kindred to be an american…
life comes…i can feel your heart…
life comes…i can feel your heart through your neck…
life comes…i can feel your heart through your neck…
like some…i can steal your heart from your neck…
glorified…glorified…
circle8 on September 15 at 12:27 p.m.
Scoutster
Just a quick statement re: Misd vs Felony. Shoplifting in normally the theft of an item from a merchant. It usually is considered a crime of opportunity. If a person enters a store for the “purpose of theft” they can be charged with a felony e.g. burglary. The reason is the “intent”. You prove intent by the evidence. If that person had a list of things to steal similar to a shopping list that would indicate they probably are a professional “shoplifter” that fills order from people who want certain items. Another case would be a teenager telling his friends that he was going in the store to steal say a DVD then that would show intent. Historically the items could include about anything you can imagine from clothes to jewelry etc. The value of the property stolen also has a bearing on the charge. Some states have dollar amounts of as low as $150. If the value reaches the amount designated then the crime could be grand theft or burglary depending on the circumstances. The dollar amount that determines misd vs felony vary from state to state and also vary according to the specific crime such as embezzlement or others. I know it is confusing but I hope this helps.
cpd805 on September 15 at 12:32 p.m.
Maria: “Where did you hear that he was in uniform, idiot?”
Maria again: “Was he in uniform? We haven’t been informed of that.”
Maria one more time after shown that it was reported Hirzel was in uniform: “Well then, I take it all back. The old guy deserved to die.”
Well, Maria….if the old guy pulled a gun on a uniformed officer, then maybe he did not necessarily “deserve to die”, but the law of consequences comes into play. Every action has a reaction. Pull a gun on a cop; probably gettin shot.
Mr. Creach had every right to investigate the incident armed with his handgun. That was his Constitutional right. But being armed and getting into a pissin’ match with an officer who is telling you to drop the gun and get on the ground; then pulling the gun out of your waistband during or after a physical confrontation with an officer……not just unwise, but predictably deadly……obviously.
valleyman on September 15 at 12:32 p.m.
What I hear here is a general distaste for someone looking into the background of Pastor Creach. Now that strikes me as pretty hypocritical since everyone thinks every detail of Deputy Hirzel’s life is somehow relevant to this investigation and shooting. The sauce is good for both the goose and the gander folks… To me it sounds more and more like this elderly gentleman’s curmudgeonly attitude and his lack of respect for authority resulted in the tragedy that ended his life… I’m sorry if that’s something you don’t want to hear, but hey…
davidw on September 15 at 12:42 p.m.
@bszottingler:
Good idea.
Trying to figure out which documents we have in our possession at this point, and which ones we’re still waiting on.
Among the documents we talked with the sheriff about getting is the officer-involved shooting protocol. He readily agreed to provide it.
It was during that discussion with him that we learned — for the first time, actually — that there’s a series of questions officers are expected to answer right away, which they call the “tactical” interview. It includes basic information designed to aid in evidence collection and preservation. Questions dealing with motivation and why specific courses of action were chosen are what’s considered off limits until the “cooling off” period elapses.
Sadly, none of the agencies investigating the Creach shooting bothered to mention until more than a week had passed that Hirzel had given a tactical interview the night of the incident. Although there’s still the whole vacation issue, the fact that investigators had been provided with at least a basic explanation of the confrontation is a significant difference from the message investigators otherwise gave the community, which essentially was: “We won’t know anything until after we’ve had a chance to interview the deputy.”
Anyway, didn’t mean to ramble.
I’ll check with Clouse when I get a chance to see what documents we’re still waiting on and will post the protocols as soon as I’m able.
Thanks again for the suggestion,
David Wasson
Deputy City Editor
bszottlinger on September 15 at 12:52 p.m.
Circle8:
I am assuming as a retired police officer you would book the individual on a charge that specifically fit the evidence. A 20 dollar shirt, Shoplifting. A 5000 dollar diamond ring grand theft. Evidence of intent to resell then the specific statute.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.56.340
A burglary charge when the business is open to the public might not stand unless the perpetrator was previously trespassed.
Brad
bszottlinger on September 15 at 12:56 p.m.
Mr. Wasson:
Thanks much! It might be interesting to compare this “Protocol” to others in Washington State, as well as other areas of the Country. I suspect you might find some differences.
Brad
bszottlinger on September 15 at 1:05 p.m.
Mr. Wasson:
It might also be interesting to take a look at officer involved investigations in States which have an Law Enforcement Officers Bill of Rights and how the agency protocol is adapted
to the LEOBR.
Get Andrew off his butt! :)
Brad Szottlinger
jellyfish on September 15 at 1:17 p.m.
I was wondering when this story was going to come out.
Ron_the_Cop on September 15 at 1:27 p.m.
Brad,
Re a burglary charge at least in CA it’s a matter of intent as you suggest to enter a res/bldg (as defined in 459 PC) to commit a felony and or theft.
I’ve successfully filed burglary charges on shoplifters. This goes as you suggest to show intent upon entering the building whether open for business or not. Generally the intent can be established by “shopping lists” and or special equipment/bags to facilitate the theft. I rarely did this. These folks normally had theft priors and it was easier just to charge theft with a prior (666 PC) if your goal was to get a felony charge. You didn’t have to prove the intent. I usually used this (fel burglaries) for complex refunder theft schemes/credit card ID theft/fraud rings where different parts of the offense occurred at multiple store locations.
Thanks Mr. Wasson re getting the critical incident protocol policy. The PIOs should have educated the media and the public re these “tactical interviews.” It wasn’t until Sheriff Knezovich returned to town that the record was set straight.
Again where the Hell has Chief Kirkpatrick been? She should have been on point on this and other maters involving the protocol. Leaving this to her PIO was a big PR mistake. That’s why she gets paid the big bucks. I agree with Brad she’s in over her head on this and the Guild does have valid issues with her re critical incident investigations. This was the basis of the Union’s vote of no confidence but this got left in dust with the S-R spin on the manner in which the vote was taken. The Guild did shoot themselves in the foot on that one.
I’ve been quite clear with Kirkpatrick’s one foot in and one foot out of Spokane that if I were the Mayor I would have told her to leave.
effrepublicans on September 15 at 1:34 p.m.
@Lewis… The comment you posted on Sept 14 at 8:31am you stated “Unless they have changed things since i worked there in 2002 the SPD has no way to do blood tests”. The way this statement reads is that you are coming across as having worked for the SPD and implying you know the ins and outs of the SPD so most likely you are trying to convey that you worked as officer or in the lab. Now you’re stating that you worked as a subcontractor in the safety building. These two statements seem to be at odds with each other. But noneoftheless you seem to have a very high opinion for the SPD (sarcastic undertone implied) but now recommend killing a cop the moment they step foot on your property because their whole purpose is to kill people. Sounds a bit twisted to me. So what was the reason why you left your job with the SPD and now promoting the proactive defense against police officers?
I am not denying the fact that you are allowed to own a weapon and brandish it on your property. I think you need to take a step back and put yourself in the officer’s shoes. You are sitting in your vehicle fully clothed as an officer and a person approaches you carrying a gun in their hand. What are you going to think or do? I’d be wiling to bet 99.9% of the population would have some thought about their immediate safety. If an officer feels there is an immediate threat of safety they take certain steps to reduce that threat and in Mr. Creach’s case, his 2nd ammendment rights to carry a weapon are now trumped by the officer’s request for him to lay down his weapon. It doesn’t matter if you are in Spokane or Tuscaloosa. Mr. Creach was ordered by an officer of the law to lay down his weapon because the officer perceived an immediate threat. It doesn’t matter if Mr. Creach pointed the gun at the officer or not. Mr. Creach didn’t comply and that is what triggered the next series of events.
Mr. Creach and the officer both made mistakes and unfortunately someone died.
cpd805 on September 15 at 2:20 p.m.
Hey effrepublicans, I think when Lewis states he was a “contractor” in the PSB, he was most likely a janitor. That position would in no way make him any more informed of the inner workings of the SPD than anyone else. He tried to word it in a way that would give him some semblance of credibility, of which he has none on that particular point.
maria on September 15 at 2:37 p.m.
This:
“arroyoribera wrote on September 14 at 10:48 p.m.
Let’s look back on recent Spokane law enforcement history with a common theme —
Spokane County Sheriff Detective exposes self to barista
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2006…
Spokane Police Officer out with Sheriff Deputies accused of sex crime
http://spokanepoliceabuses.wordpress….
The Firehouse Sex Scandal — two Spokane Police Detectives order Fireman to destroy photos of 16 year old he had sex with.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news/n…
Sgt David Freitag’s harboring of a child-porn possessing sex offender in his basement.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/tools/…
So what should be the fate of Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich? The same one that met another distinguished law enforcement leader in the Spokane area, who failed in the middle of trying times to restore public trust.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaki…
All of this is without mentioning Jay Olson’s drug house (a scandal long before he left a gay bar under the influence and shot Shonto Pete)
http://spokanepoliceabuses.wordpress….
And without mention Jay Mehring and any number of other cases.
Be assured that the genie is out of the bottle and that people will start coming forward with more allegations about misconduct by the Sheriff’s staff. This is long overdue.
Obviously public trust Spokane area law enforcement does not exist and will not be restored anytime soon. Nor should it.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. These guys work for us. The days of them having ordinary citizens knelling before them, subject to humiliation and treatment as if they were at Abu Ghraib treated as animals need to be over and now.”
misjustice on September 15 at 2:39 p.m.
I agree with effrepublicans & cpd805…..Lewis was implying he was more than a janitor & had some sort of insight to what the police department does.
He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar!
Diana on September 15 at 3:07 p.m.
Common and predictible that the victim’s reputation has been called in to question.
whokobe on September 15 at 3:12 p.m.
If only Mr. Creach had a firearm with which to defend himself; this never would have happened. Gun-free zones claim another life.
cpd805 on September 15 at 3:15 p.m.
Diana: “Common and predictible that the victim’s reputation has been called in to question.”
Everyone’s state of mind should be considered in something so serious. One way to do that is to look at the history of those involved, a history that can shed light on their predispositions. We should demand this regarding both Deputy Hirzel and Mr. Creach. To demand this from one side and not the other is neither objective nor thorough. I would hope you would want an investigation into this that is both objective and thorough. Right?
gslbball on September 15 at 3:24 p.m.
@Diana–the events described in the article makes his reputation relevant.
The pursuit with a gun of a petty thief who has left one’s property, and threatening to blow his head off several blocks away–this is not behavior of a reasonable person.
Lesson: if you choose to use a gun–whether carrying or using it–-you may well end up on the wrong end of a gun.
Foolish to confront suspected trespassers in a parking lot in this manner. Call law enforcment and use the gun only to protect one’s self in your home in the face of imminent danger to life and limb.
Diana on September 15 at 3:29 p.m.
His reputation according to whom? Are readers supposed to think now that Mr. Creach was a gun nut anyway, so his murder was justified?
lewis8457 on September 15 at 3:39 p.m.
So the lowlife cops have to pick on the janitor actually at that time I was the project manger on site for the janitorial company that cleaned the place I went every place we had a contract to clean and that included the forensics lab and it was mainly just finger printing and photographs. The real blood work happened in the WSP lab, so any of you pigs want to comment on that? No didn’t think so. You need to attack what you perceive as a low life form that clean your toilet. Kind of speaks volumes about how you feel about the common man. Do you hate shoe salesmen too or security guards? How to you feel about the dishwasher at dennys?
The fact you guys come on and try to attack people like me to make you feel good is pathetic. Big tough cops are threatened by my opinion and me a lowly toilet cleaner who would have known.
gslbball on September 15 at 3:40 p.m.
@Diana–-His reputation alone obviously will not justify his killing (you use the word murder?–sounds like cart before horse).
But his reputation may give some insight into his conduct and behavior that night.
cpd805 on September 15 at 3:50 p.m.
Diana: “His reputation according to whom?”
His reputation according to prior, documented law enforcement contacts to start. Family, friends, neighbors….it all should be considered. If someone shows a history of certain behaviors, whether Creach or Hirzel, it is a predictor of future behaviors. Is someone’s history always an accurate indicator of future actions? Not necessarily, but it is worth looking at. I’m not necessarily defending Hirzel….he needs to be scrutinized….but so does Creach.
Diana again: “Are readers supposed to think now that Mr. Creach was a gun nut anyway, so his murder was justified?”
Nope. I think Creach had every right to be armed and protect his property with a firearm is he chose to do so. I guess that would make me a gun nut too. However, getting into a pissing match with the Deputy, refusing to drop the gun (putting it in the waistband still leaves it accessible), and then accessing it again after a physical confrontation is a bit nutty if you as ask any rational person.
Thayne on September 15 at 3:57 p.m.
It seems strange that Mr. Clouse went through all the trouble with this in-depth story that makes Mr. Creach look like a renegade cowboy. I don’t remember - did he go on a truth finding mission like this when Mr. Zhem was killed or Mr. Pete was shot? When is there going to be an in-depth story about the corrupt police guild that is holding Spokane citizens hostage? The fairy tale that deputy Hirzel came up with, after being able to think about it for a week, has many incongruent parts. The one that sticks out to me is, after hitting Mr. Creach in the knee with his baton, he shot him in the chest. Mr.Creach, a 74 year old man, just continued to stand upright after being hit. I would think most peoples reaction would be to bend over and grab their injured knee - oh - didn’t the autopsy show no sign of a baton blow. There are way to many unanswered questions and it’s very unlikely the SPD is going to try and find answers.
misjustice on September 15 at 4:02 p.m.
A shoe salesman wasn’t the one insinuating he worked “in” the SPD. Just saying… .
Also, I tried to call into account what I had heard about Mr. Creach & the SR kept deleting my posting. Belonging to an anti-establishment/vigilant group would have everything to do with how a person responds when law enforcement are on the scene.
Now that some things are coming to light… . ????
cpd805 on September 15 at 4:05 p.m.
Don’t take it personally Lewis. You are the one who mischaracterized you role at the SPD. Not saying you intentionally did that (?). So, you were the janitor’s supervisor, so what? That gives you vitrually no insight on how the SPD is run……at all. That gives you virtually no personal contact with SPD officers other than a passing greeting in the halls or locker rooms. I used to be a janitor, so I would in no way malign anyone because of what they do…..they have jobs, which is more than what I can say about a lot of other people. Grow some skin. By the way, no one (certainly not me) called you names like “pig” or “lowlife”….and I still won’t.
Actually, you are correct. The WSP crime lab does all blood work/analysis. The Sheriff runs the Ident (fingerprinting, photos, crime scene processing, etc), SPD does none of those things except for photos and lifting prints in the field. Of course, as the janitor…uh…supervisor, you knew that.
effrepublicans on September 15 at 4:12 p.m.
@ Lewis… who ever said that myself, cpd805 or gramma was employed or has ever been employed as a police officer???? Your most recent rant only confirms that your previous statements should be called into question. And thats why each of us responded to your posts because they are extremely biased (although you are fully entitled to your opinion), incorrect factually, and written as if you have indepth knowledge of a certain profession. I cannot speak for cpd805 or gramma but in no way were my comments directed towards your profession but rather calling into question the preceived profession and indepth knowledge of SPD workings that your previous comments alluded to. I don’t think you have yet to take a step back and truly evaluate the incident independtly of your preexisting opinions on law enforcement. When you do that, your comments would certainly be more seriously considered.
andrewz on September 15 at 5:31 p.m.
All: Several comments have been removed. Please keep it focused on the story, not on attacking other commenters.
Thanks.
misjustice on September 15 at 5:31 p.m.
Just wanted to say being a janitor is an honorable profession & I have nothing against anyone cleaning toilets, mopping floors or doing such jobs. Being a wife, mother & grandma I have been doing those jobs for years!
I also wanted to say, I am not now, never have been, never will be an officer of the courts! LE, Court Guard, Prison Guard, etc.
misjustice on September 15 at 5:44 p.m.
Mr. Wasson, thank you for your reply to my question.
I did indeed read Mr. Creach’s son’s statement in the next to the last paragraph.
What I was calling for was a statement, from the author, early in the article, that stated the reports generated from the 21 contacts show Mr. Creach was never charged or arrested. That would have made it clear that Mr. Creach did not have a police record and also would have been more credible than a statement from a grieving son [at the end of the article].
eagleproducer on September 15 at 5:48 p.m.
All of the comments by the cop supporters ASSUME Hirzel’s account is the gospel truth and concoct all of their rationales for his behavior based upon that. Why would anyone expect Hirzel’s statement to be anything but self-serving, especially when allowed a lengthy period to put together a scenario wherein he has “case law” to back up what he said happens.
Is this the manner in which they conduct their own investigations? Do they take a statement from someone under suspicion as truthful and if they say “hey, I didn’t do it” they move on to the next unlucky citizen they’ll encounter?
Why is it they ask all of us to accept Hirzel’s account when police, especially in this region, has lied time and time again, either under oath on the stand or during the course of an investigation into their alleged misconduct?
bdr on September 15 at 6:37 p.m.
To fast to draw training is all over the state including Oregon.
its not just a Spokane problem.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HUGE SHAKE UP AS WELL IN SEATTLE.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012903347_policereview16m.html
justice4all1 on September 15 at 7:32 p.m.
How many police officers/law enforcement comment on these articles? What are their tag names?
I am only curious because I believe, in order to gauge a more accurate determination of public opinion in our community, that it is important to know exactly who holds these extreme opinions. In all fairness, that issue cuts both ways. Please let me know if you know/suspect.
Thank you…
misjustice on September 15 at 7:51 p.m.
Yes, it goes both ways. Let’s get a tally of who has been arrested, who has done time in prison, who is law abiding, & who’s never been arrested. How many are women, how many are men, how many are minors, how many are over 30, etc. It should clear up who has an agenda with what LE does.
We have the right to NOT use our real names for a reason. If people didn’t give their real names, it is pretty obvious they will not tell you they are in LE. I think from the postings you can tell who backs the officer and who doesn’t.
I placed my “employment” status on here because I have been accused of being a biased officer. I’m not an officer, but I tend to lean toward the officer being vindicated of his using justifiable force.
justice4all1 on September 15 at 8:34 p.m.
I understand that Gramma. I was referring to people’s tag name, like “justice4all1”. I would never want to know someone’s real name here. That is similar to talking politics and religion with close friends…NO WAY!
You commented on the use of “justifiable force”. The major problem we have with that defense as it relates to this case is that no eye-witnesses exist, other than Deputy Hirzel.
I believe that most reasonable citizens would agree that Deputy Hirzel has a vested interest in how the “facts/untruths” are presented, and has every reason to perceive critical circumstances in his favor after the “fact” (pun intended). Many here have said, and I agree, that we will never likely know what happened at the Plant Farm that night. It was a lose-lose tragedy for all.
Thank you…
oink on September 15 at 8:45 p.m.
Let us pray (Prey) just hope that Rocky Watson will not get mo money and mo bullits to train and hire mo killers to take the latteral transfer to infest the Spokane city / valley / county law enforcement agencys ( Thompson, Olsen, Hirzel( et al). He now has law suit aginst the county to do just that. Rocky also sends his shooters to the CDA cops (Gary (bang bang dead dog ) Bangs) So it is not just the people the coppers take aim at. They can and will also shoot your pets if they stop waggin their tails!
Also the Spokane Police guild has a law suit to take away all and any investigativie powers and or oversight given to outside review of their KLAN.
only if nobody knows OINK
TheRoyLarsen on September 15 at 8:47 p.m.
You are pleased to have Mr. Clouse bash the police yet you are mystified when he casts a poor light on a citizen. He writes articles for money. It’s what he does for a living. You read them and respond to this blog. And because of that, he remains employed. Hello?
monkeyman on September 15 at 9:17 p.m.
@ TheRoyLarsen on September 15 at 8:47 p.m.
“You read them and respond to this blog. ”
Thanks for chiming-in yourself. Good advertising for Mr. Clouse, and for SR. I am glad that this discussion is taking place. What if this venue didn’t exist. This would have been old news by now…
bszottlinger on September 15 at 9:24 p.m.
Bradford Szottlinger, Age 60+, Male, Caucasian, Retired, 1 Speeding ticket mid 80s Washington DC (I was guilty paid the fine), Own 2 handguns (Gifts), Do not own any sex toys (No one saw fit to gift any).
Is this voir dire where I have to go into greater detail?
junkman99208 on September 15 at 9:37 p.m.
Greetings from the Middle East. I have been watching this develop and am amazed at a couple things. First, this sounds like he was a uniformed officer (un-marked car, working on tickets/reports in the middle of the night) As far as I know, Detectives don’t work those late nights, so he must have been in uniform. That means Badge, Patch that says Police/Sheriff etc. Second, it was reported that Rev. Creach requested additional patrols on his property because of theft issues, so it was reasonable for the officer to be there. Third, any reporter will dig up any information on any of the players to write a sensational story that SELLS PAPERS. So, the other side of the coin is that the Reverend has contacted people on and offhis property and probably broken a law or two. The fact that he was not arrested and charged is a mute point, Had the officer had probable cause, they would have, or just gone ahead and arrested him so they could raise the ire of the constitutionalists for making arrest on a citizen who was defending their property. The fact remains that there have been contacts with law enforcement, in which he used a gun. I am sure that the Spokesman is putting a freedom of information act request in for all those contacts so they can SELL MORE PAPERS. Lastly, everyone wants to arm chair QB this to death, yet just 10 months ago, an individual gunned down 4 officers in a coffee shop in Lakewood. those officers did not have the opportunity to ” quick draw and overreact”. If I recall it, another officer saved alot of tax dollars by that same “quick draw” when he saw the same guy coming. I also recall that two other officers were killed in the line of duty in the same month. So, it is dangerous work, but they are hiring, so instead of complaining, when are you all going to go sign up? Also, the position of Sheriff is an elected position, I look forward to seeing a robust group of names on the ballot, if anyone wants to stand up. Thanks for letting me vent. PS, I am deployed to the Middle East defending your right to gripe. Enjoy.
bszottlinger on September 15 at 9:45 p.m.
Junkman99208:
I’ve got some advice for you buddy….keep your head down!
Brad
Ron_the_Cop on September 15 at 9:59 p.m.
Thx for your svs Junkman99208.
TheRoyLarsen I don’t think you know how true what you said is re the S-R.
And yes Monkeyman you are witnessing first hand the power of the new/alternative/social media to bring together people of diverse views/interests that perceive a common threat/problem. It’s what broke the Catholic Church’s dark dirty little secret. Read Clay Shirkey’s book, “Here comes everybody.”
The owners of the S-R are in for a wide ride as they’ve let the genie of their undoing out of the bottle:-) They just don’t know it yet no matter how much they try to control the thoughts in these threads.
And yes I spent 35 years as a cop and am very biased in favor of cops. Anyway for those interested in my background you can read my professional vitae here:
http://tinyurl.com/265r62g
lewis8457 on September 15 at 10:21 p.m.
As usual efferpublicans, gramma, and cpd805 all under alias has to attack all I made was a comment that SPD does not do blood work if they do why don’t you post it, or do you know? I worked inside both areas and know what I saw and what the technicians told me, now if you 3 cowards wants to tell us if I am wrong in the idea SPD does not do there own blood work then speak up now. Your attacks just show your ignorance. And quite frankly you are boring me.
monkeyman on September 15 at 11:34 p.m.
@ junkman99208 on September 15 at 9:37 p.m.
Enjoyed your views. And you should also thank SR for giving you the opportunity to express them.
cpd805 on September 15 at 11:35 p.m.
Lewis……. effrepublicans, gramma and I are all undercover cops assigned to blog under assumed aliases on this site for damage control (as if any substantial number of people really reads these). This “coward” (that’s me…cpd805) told you that you were correct in your “bloodwork theory” in a prior post (maybe you missed it).
Yes, we attacked you by calling you a janitor (oh the humanity) while you called police “lowlifes” and “pigs”. While we are boring you, you are entertaining me with wild conspiracy theories, (unintentional) officer impersonation, and a very thin skin. Thank you for your expertise.
Twinmom on September 15 at 11:43 p.m.
I want to know if Creach knew he was dealing with a police officer. No where have I seen that the cop identified himself.
fredjames on September 16 at 8:18 a.m.
so a business owner had demonstrated a long time period of safety and common sense patrol of his private property without any shooting of any person , including criminals who were trespassing. And yet a policeman who was trespassing late at night could not use the same restraint and murdered the property owner. The policeman never said Creach threatened to blow his head off, he just put the gun in his waist band so that should have ended any police action and began the questioning process. Creach had already explaine that he had been robbed so he was starting the porcess and the coward,sex toy seller, the killer cop wanted to go to Vegas and look for more toys to buy for his business, you know the one he was required to list and did not. Yes there is a lot of money in sex toys, and selling drugs, and other mostly shady business deals. Not so much money in plant farms and the owner needed to protect his business from criminal burlgar types. if the police made 21 stops and the head cop said that was not unusual for that business, then if your property has had a lot more burglaries , then you need to patrol it. No you can not afford to hire private security , it cost too much, and no you can not fence it like a jail or your business will look like a jail and no people will visit. So you work 12 hours a day and watch it 12 hours at night and respond to your burglar alarm and if you see a trespasser your go out and check it out. Hirzel is a killer coward and a liar who did not disclose his private business as required by law.
Jobo on September 16 at 8:24 a.m.
Being that the “thief” is a thief his version of the story couldn’t be taken seriously (after all a thief is dishonest) but still I am curious as to what his side of the story is. Mr. Creach was probably sick & tired of being robbed, understandably, but it was just a plant! If a child had been stolen then get out the loaded double barrel!! I’m not making excuses for the thief but I sort of find it hard to make excuses for the “pastor” either. He may very well have carried out his threat. As for the police and Kirkpatrick, there are no excuses period. I am ashamed of our local law enforcement and why she is still serving our local public is beyond me. There are a lot of holes in this story and of course we will never get the truth. We call Kirkpatrick “Crookpatrick” in our neighborhood because she (and the department) is no more honest then those who commit the crimes.
misjustice on September 16 at 8:35 a.m.
Ohhhh, “Crookpatrick”? Really? It would be funny, if it wasn’t so close to being the truth.
monkeyman on September 16 at 9:02 a.m.
National coverage:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/15/pastor-wayne-creach-police-defend-killing_n_718562.html
misjustice on September 16 at 9:07 a.m.
junkman99208 THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!! From the bottom of my heart I do thank you!!!!
***Comment: The major problem we have with that defense as it relates to this case is that no eye-witnesses exist, other than Deputy Hirzel.***
I’m sure Deputy Hirzel wishes there were witnesses. It would make his life a lot easier.
Also, Lewis got so much flack that he sees he must change his moniker. PigBuster huh? Really tells the entire story about where you stand… . truth or not. Makes me really wonder why you no longer work in the SPD building????
maria on September 16 at 9:10 a.m.
fredjames: I like your honesty. BTW, there really is a business listing for Vanessa Allure in Hayden, ID. Funny, the address looks to be a large beautiful home in an upscale neighborhood. I guess that’s just the showroom or something.
misjustice on September 16 at 9:16 a.m.
@ monkeyman; thanks for the link. This story has gone viral, there are over 190 comments on the Huffington post.
@gramms; so what if he changed his moniker/avatar/name? Now that you know you can still bash him.
@maria; hey, girl! I think that is the officer’s former home/showroom. Indeed!
maria on September 16 at 9:20 a.m.
misjustice: Lol. “former” indeed.
bdr on September 16 at 9:42 a.m.
This comment section Absolute Saturday Creacher feature!
cpd805 on September 16 at 10:55 a.m.
Maybe I’ll change my moniker to janitorsarepeopletoo, or gotarrestedsoihatecopsnow.
misjustice on September 16 at 11:32 a.m.
me too: How about “DefendToTheEnd!” or how about “GrannyGotYourBack”
fredjames on September 16 at 1:55 p.m.
According to Officer Hirzel’s statement and evidence collected at the scene, ultimately there was a close encounter between the officer and Mr. Creach near the officer’s car,” the release said. “Officer Hirzel stated there was a verbal exchange between himself and Mr. Creach prior to the single gunshot being fired.”
The news release offered no explanation of what was said or by whom, or why Hirzel felt the need to pull the trigger, killing the 74-year-old pastor in the parking lot of his nursery business in Spokane Valley.
Creach’s daughter, Serena Creach Leonard, said she read the statement and it left the family with many unanswered questions.
“We have no more answers from that news release, really, than we had the day after,” Leonard said. “We still feel badly for Deputy Hirzel, but we need the sheriff’s department to communicate to us as a family to let us know what happened that night. Whatever it is, we want the truth.”
The truth is Creach said I am the property owner and I carry a gun when I see a trespasser incase it is a criminal, and then the police man went insane and killed the preacher and businessman
andrewz on September 16 at 3:16 p.m.
Several comments were taken down that contained a crass nickname. Not because of the stance the commenter took or the arguments presented. To those whose comments were removed, please feel free to repost your arguments, but leave out that nickname.
tanker67 on September 16 at 5:13 p.m.
One word “POLYGRAPH”
misjustice on September 16 at 5:37 p.m.
“An internal affairs report shows he also killed a man while on the force in California using a neck restraint. He was cleared.”
http://www.krem.com/news/local/Case-f…
misjustice on September 16 at 10:08 p.m.
fredjames states: ……….. then the police man went insane and killed the preacher and businessman
*************
The above statement is just a weeeee bit over the top! I believe claiming the officer was insane could be a basis for a lawsuit by Deputy Hirzel! Defamation of Character comes to mind. Especially if he is NOT indicted for what happened & it is found he was justified.
misjustice on September 17 at 7:24 a.m.
It’s called freedom of speech, gramms; it’s not a one way street, something for only you and the other defenders of Hirzel.
revbuckley on September 17 at 9:45 p.m.
Why sit on your butt’s and bi*** about the police? If you think they are such a problem get up and join the police department and make it change. “If your not part of the solution your part of the problem.” ever hear that. Why not bi*** about the courts? they are as much of a problem as this. What about the parole board? They release violent offender who have reoffened many times before, because the prisons are over crowded. If this man was a constent “victim” and owned a bussiness, why didn’t he have camaras on his property? Why didn’t his wife call the police when he went outside? People make the mistake thinking guns give them power and athority, but their wrong. It just makes you a target and makes more victims. I have 3 weapons myself, and damn anyone who says I have to give them up, but I would have called the police before I opened the door. I would also never argue with a cop while I was armed, Why give them an excuse?
Annyoakly on September 20 at 3:46 p.m.
Before I leave my comment, I must inform the public that my husband and I wanted to comment on this Saturday. We have been put on hold and only just now able to respond. Is this an open forum?
fredjames on September 20 at 5:47 p.m.
let’s remember Mr. Creach shot or killed no person , the police is a serial murderer, this is Hirze;’s second murder under the shield of police officer, the same as military killing the enemy and that is how police in Spokane too often treat guys like Creach a business man, not a criminal. One time I followed a guy running out of a Safeway and got his plate number, the police never visited the store, I asked about it, the guy stole lunch meat. The store manager said all they do is try to tell the thief he is trespassing and not a customer they will serve in the future, the police will not arrest and Tucker will not prosecute. I said maybe we should all just steal our food if that is how it works !
rightwingextreme on September 20 at 5:48 p.m.
YOU PEOPLE ARE MORONS!!! No it is not illigal to chase someone down and hold them at gunpoint for stealing from your property! Nor is it illigal to also tell them that you will blow their head off!!! THE COPS DO IT ALL THE TIME AND YOU HAVE JUST AS MANY OR MORE RIGHTS BY LAW!!! This town is full of ignorant, ignorant, FOOLS!!!!!!!!!!!! WAKE UP MORONS!!! Maybee you’ll learn something!!!