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September 16, 2010 in News, City
Prosecutors reviewing Creach shooting probe
The investigation into last month’s police shooting of a Spokane Valley pastor and businessman has been completed and turned over to county prosecutors for review, authorities said today.
Investigators have made no recommendation about whether they feel the shooting of Pastor Wayne Scott Creach on his own property by Spokane County sheriff’s Deputy Brian Hirzel was justified or whether criminal charges should be considered.
Spokane County Prosecutor Steve Tucker has said he’ll review the investigation and make that decision.
The tragedy has sparked intense community debate over police procedures and the responsibility of lawfully armed property owners to comply with police demands when confronted on their own property. It was unclear why investigators decided against including any recommendation with the report sent to prosecutors.
Hirzel, who was uniformed but in an unmarked patrol car in Creach’s nursery parking lot after 11 p.m. Aug. 25, shot the pastor in the chest after a brief confrontation.
The deputy, who was assigned to the Spokane Valley Police Department, had been dispatched to the neighborhood to watch for vandals and thieves after a resident and neighbor of the Creach family had requested extra patrols in the area. Family members have said that Creach, who lived in a house alongside his commercial nursery and greenhouse complex, believed there was a prowler on his property and went to investigate.
Detectives have said Hirzel told them he saw a shirtless Creach approaching from about 30 feet away with a gun in his hand. Hirzel reportedly ordered Creach to drop his weapon and the pastor refused, putting the pistol in the waistband of his pants behind his back instead. Hirzel said Creach also refused orders to get on the ground, prompting Hirzel to strike the 74-year-old man with a police baton, causing him to crumple. Hirzel said he fired when Creach reached for his weapon and he could see the butt of the pistol.
Meanwhile, the reports include numerous new details, including indications that Hirzel may have been involved in a fatal confrontation while serving as a law enforcement officer years earlier in Cathedral City, Calif., which is near Palm Springs.
A Spokane-area detective is following up on reports that Hirzel had placed a “lateral vasuclar neck restraint” on a subject in Cathedral City and that the restrained individual later died.
A California police lieutenant told Spokane detectives that the death was investigated at the time at that prosecutors declined to file any charges against Herzel.
Cathedral City authorities last week denied The Spokesman-Review’s request for records related to Hirzel’s service as a law enforcement officer there.
On the night of the Spokane Valley shooting, Hirzel had started his shift in a marked patrol car but switched to an unmarked car about two hours before heading to the Plant Farm, which is where the fatal encounter occurred.
After shooting Creach, Hirzel was still in the firing position when the first backup officer arrived.
“Hirzel began telling me that we needed to treat Creach for his gunshot wound,” Deputy Mark Speer wrote in the narrative portion of the report he filed on the incident. “He then said, ‘Who the f-ck is this guy?’”
Another deputy, Todd Miller, rolled onto the scene and put on gloves to begin administering first aid, noting that Creach still had a pulse when he first checked. “I tilted Wayne’s head back to attempt to open an airway and checked for breathing,” Miller wrote in his report. “I did not see that Wayne was breathing.”
By that time, a Washington State Patrol trooper had arrived and also was checking for a pulse but was unable to detect one. Medics arrived moments later and law enforcement officers let them take over.
Creach was pronounced dead at 11:27 p.m. by a doctor at Valley Medical Center who was on the telephone with medics at the scene.
Interestingly, the first backup deputy to arrive after the shooting, Speer, is the same deputy who responded to the nursery in 2008 when Creach had apprehended a suspected plant thief at gunpoint and held him until police arrived.
Speer noted in his report on the Hirzel shooting that he had counseled Creach back in 2008 to avoid taking matters into his own hands with a loaded gun and call police instead.
“Creach disagreed with me and stated that he would defend his property and had the right to bear arms any time he wanted,” Speer wrote. “Creach was polite about his convictions but would not listen to my advice about confronting suspects.”
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misjustice on September 16 at 2:33 p.m.
“Creach, who lives in a house alongside…”
I’m sure the author intended, lived in a house..
Elkay on September 16 at 2:46 p.m.
I just hope some light and transparency will start shining through, even though we need to wait for the ME report. I know, I know ……… Patience…….. (arms folded, foot tapping).
Itsgodswill on September 16 at 2:51 p.m.
Yeah, unfortunately Mr. Creach not only does not live next to his nursery, but also doesn’t live, period. Thanks SPD!
fredjames on September 16 at 3:13 p.m.
The 3-year-old son of a Clark County sheriff’s detective has died after police say the boy accidentally shot himself in the head at the family’s Battle Ground home. Police say the boy’s father, Detective Ed Owens, was off-duty and at home at the time of the shooting late Tuesday night. The sheriff’s office mandates that its guns be kept in a safe when officers are at home. But the polce officer left a loaded gun on the gound and that is not proper gun control. So for all you cops this is what happens to cops when they drop a loaded gun on the ground, Creach was following proper gun control and did nothing wrong, in fact once he was able to see that the unmarked car was probably not a criminal , he did not draw a gun on Hirzel, he holstered a gun on Hirzel and for that he was assaulted with a club and then murdered. The police have to act in a manner that is to protect and serve not club and kill and then go to Vegas to look for better sex toys to sell. Ozzy is worried about a 2500 vacation cost , what about a million dollar wrongful death lawsuit, and win lose or draw that will still be the cost minimal or the equivalent of 10 less police officials trespassing on private property to do unrelated paper work.
monkeyman on September 16 at 3:17 p.m.
“The investigation … has been completed and turned over to county prosecutors for review, authorities said today.”
Anybody know if/when the investigation report will be made public?
addyh on September 16 at 3:31 p.m.
Monkeyman, we are going to post parts of it on this site. It’s 700 pages long, however, and a lot of it is pretty routine paperwork, so we won’t post it all.
Scoutster on September 16 at 3:35 p.m.
Thank you, Addy…and are you still looking for the written protocol?
jenilynn on September 16 at 3:36 p.m.
fredjames, glad you were on scene with Creach and Hirzel so you could let us know the facts of what happened.
Shylock13 on September 16 at 3:40 p.m.
After a thorough review, the County Prosecutor will “TUCKER” the case away and not prosecute.
The election is in November, folks. Tucker has to go!
MrNatural on September 16 at 3:54 p.m.
Does anybody here see the risk associated with Mr. Creach’s behavior?
I ‘m not talking about hindsight as to whether he should have just called police if he saw something or someone suspicious.
But the revelations that he carried a gun routinely confronted people armed and most likely for that fact it contributed to an increased risk of him being shot.
maria on September 16 at 3:59 p.m.
Hey jenilynn, there are plenty of speculators around here. Here’s one from yesterday:
cpd805 wrote on September 16 at 11:16 a.m.
“Fred: “Creach had already started a verbal dialog …”
Verbal dialog indeed….
Hirzel: “Drop the gun!”
Creach: “No, I don’t have to” (Puts it in his waistband still accessible)
Hirzel: “Get on the ground!”
Creach: “No, I don’t have to”
Hirzel: “yes you do”
Creach: “No I don’t”
Hirzel: Yes you do”
Creach “No I don’t
Hirzel: “yes you do”
Creach: “No I don’t” (pissing match continues)
(Enter physical confrontation)
(Enter pulling gun from waistband)
(Enter cop not wanting to get shot…shoots before Creach can…no time to ask “Sir, are you about to shoot me with that there gun you are removing from your waistband?”)”
See, cpd 805 was there, too.
bdr on September 16 at 4:00 p.m.
Spokane County Prosecutor Steve Tucker needs to study the cop training course in Seattle…..
Just yesterday Seattle called for a massive review on training.
apparently (TO QUICK TO DRAW) is taught in Seattle
its even leveled its own ranks in the training camp.
and I’m shocked Hirzel didn’t unload all 6 shots.
6 shot + reload rule is main course in the training.
These poor men in blue are brainwashed
see gun = draw and shoot.
jenilynn on September 16 at 4:04 p.m.
very few of us Mr Natural.
zelda on September 16 at 4:05 p.m.
>>Investigators have made no recommendation about whether they feel the shooting…was justified or whether criminal charges should be considered.<<
Could investigators make such a recommendation if they had wanted to or is this totally in the hands of the prosecutor?
Also wondering, based on what happened yesterday with the Seattle PD, if an inquest is possible. Spokane County doesn’t have a coroner anymore so maybe inquests went away when the ME system was put in place. Anybody know?
misjustice on September 16 at 4:07 p.m.
Mr. Natural; I do see the risk.
But I also see that in all the years that Mr. Creach exerted his 2nd Amendment rights, that until his encounter with Hirzel, he did so without injury to himself or others.
zelda on September 16 at 4:09 p.m.
This is from KREM.com —
The Medical Examiner’s report still needs to be added to the investigative file. The Prosecutor’s Office can begin a review of the case file, but cannot make a use of force decision without that additional report.
No word on when the ME’s report will be delivered.
jenilynn on September 16 at 4:11 p.m.
I guess that depends on if the allegations regarding the person on the bicycle is true or not.
maria on September 16 at 4:13 p.m.
Why was the cop doing his reports when he was supposedly on a prowler call? Did he get caught off guard, not paying attention to his surroundings? Maybe his mind was on Vegas and stuff. Perhaps the cop should have gone to the preacher’s house and asked permission to park his car on the preacher’s property. The prowler call was placed by a neighbor, not the now-dead man. Instead, the cop shows up in an unmarked car and parks it in the dark in a private lot right next to merchandise that was owned by the preacher. What a mess.
maria on September 16 at 4:19 p.m.
“guess that depends on if the allegations regarding the person on the bicycle is true or not.”
Creach was never charged with or convicted of any wrongdoing.
RobertHLocksley on September 16 at 4:22 p.m.
Mr. Creach made a choice to be armed; that choice requires the exercise of good judgment. There is an exponentially higher risk involved with choosing to drive a car, yet most make that choice. Don’t denigrate his choice because it is not your choice.
Risk is mitigated by good judgment. Mr. Creach was on his own property with a firearm. That is not a crime, it is a right confirmed, not granted, by the Constitution, the same one deputy Hirzel swore an oath to defend. Mr. Creach did not drop a single action, most likely G’ovt model 1911, on the ground. That was good judgment too. He put it away to show the deputy he was not a threat.
If what we have heard of the deputy’s interview is truly what he said, it does not make sense. He states that he hit Mr. Creach with the baton because he would not get on the ground. He saw Creach reach for his firearm, he put his baton away and drew his own pistol and fired. In the time it would have taken Mr. Creach to draw his weapon (even for a very, very slow draw from a 74 year old man) Deputy Hirzel would not have had time to complete all those actions. Hirzel says he saw the “butt” of the gun (according to news accounts). In the time it took him to holster his baton and draw his own pistol he should have been seeing the end of the muzzle of Mr. Creach’s. We are told however that “Mr. Creach did not point his weapon at the deputy at any time.
Our information is second or third hand at this point, but if this is an accurate account of what the deputy claims it does not add up. The deputy also made a choice to be armed by deciding to be a cop he should also be held to the standard of using good judgment. He failed in this by not recognizing that he was dealing with the business owner instead of an attacker. Mr. Creach died for “contempt of cop”. IMHO.
lewis8457 on September 16 at 4:25 p.m.
I think the fact they haven’t arrested Hirzel pretty much says he will get off. The police have the right to arrest him if they thought he murdered Creach. If the cops had to wait for Tucker before they arrested anyone our jail would be empty.
zelda on September 16 at 4:25 p.m.
Holy toledo — there’s going to be an avalanche of comments.
If Hirzel’s testimony is true, this is very complicated. I was a Block Watch captain at one time. We were taught to be the eyes and ears, look out for unusual things, report problems, be persistent. The number of times Creach did those things shows that he was vigilantly guarding his property. I’m sure that C.O.P.S. and the dispatchers have their share of nut-jobs and frivolous complainers, but it doesn’t sound like Creach was in that category. Except for the gun.
That said, there was an incident in my neighborhood a few years ago where some contractors decided to drink a case of beer at the job site after they’d finished a driveway. They got very loaded, one of them climbed a tree and there was a lot of “F- this” and F-you.” A neighbor took offense & called the sheriffs. Dissatisfied with the response time, he called back to say he was going into his house to get a gun. Wow — then he really got a police response and the guy up the tree yelling obscenities was not the focus of attention anymore. It took the cop, my husband and another neighbor 10 minutes to talk the guy into putting away his handgun.
Not sure I’m up to reading 700 pages, but thanks in advance to the S-R team for wading through the report.
misjustice on September 16 at 4:28 p.m.
@ Robert; you have highlighted what has troubled me with Hirzel’s story since it was fabricated, er reported. The timeline doesn’t mesh; he did an awful lot of fancy police work there, and to also, in a damn short amount of time.
D Statler on September 16 at 4:31 p.m.
I find it interesting the DipStick that shot the Preacher didn’t just say it out front.He was coming at me armed and I shot him.PERIOD ! END OF SENTENCE ! This quagmire of B.S. was never needed. Third verse: TUCKER finds officer shooting justifed,Baton beating PRICELESS!
cpd805 on September 16 at 4:56 p.m.
Maria, that was pretty disingenuous. You left out the very next sentence. I’ll cut and paste it here for you so as to make sure I am not fabricating anything. After I gave that facetious account of the incident, the very next sentence read:
“Granted this is just an assumption of what may have happened, and I could be very wrong.”
But of course you left that out in order to spin what I said. But really should I expect more from people who can’t have an honest dialogue?
andrewz on September 16 at 5:10 p.m.
All, we’ve posted Hirzel’s Sept. 3 statement to police investigators.
Link is at the top of the story and here:
http://www.spokesman.com/documents/2010/sep/16/deputy-brian-hirzel-statement/
misjustice on September 16 at 5:23 p.m.
KREM2, in their 5 o’clock report, stated that Hirzel killed a citizen in California, by strangulation. So that’s 2 homicides at the hands of Hirzel, that we know about.
misjustice on September 16 at 5:31 p.m.
Ooops, before cpd goes apoplectic I’d better correct my post…
“An internal affairs report shows he also killed a man while on the force in California using a neck restraint. He was cleared.”
http://www.krem.com/news/local/Case-file-on-pastor-shooting-handed-to-the-Prosecutor-103085574.html
A neck restraint may or may not be considered strangulation. My bad.
zelda on September 16 at 5:37 p.m.
KREM also reported that Creach approached Hirzel from behind.
misjustice on September 16 at 5:40 p.m.
OOps, got the jump on ‘em? I could see how that would affect the officer’s response.
maria on September 16 at 5:45 p.m.
So Creach tells to cop he’s “had stuff stolen” and the cop bullies him anyway. Wow.
monkeyman on September 16 at 5:46 p.m.
@ Addy Hatch on September 16 at 3:31 p.m.
“Monkeyman, we are going to post parts of it on this site…”
Thank you.
“(Editors note: The investigative report is more than 700 pages long and SR reporters are reading it now. The online version of this story is being updated throughout the afternoon.)”
I would suggest, at least for this story, to put an update time stamp on top. I am sure a lot of readers will be monitoring your updates. Thanks.
misjustice on September 16 at 5:52 p.m.
@ maria; girl, Hirzel couldn’t tell that Mr. Creach was the property owner, he saw the gun and went into his training mode; which hours and years of police-on-the-job experience have taught him.
Just like the first time that Hirzel was involved in the death of a citizen, he’ll be cleared in this second death.
maria on September 16 at 5:53 p.m.
Yep, Creach tells the cop he’s “had stuff stolen” and instead of treating Creach like a crime victim the cop treats him like a criminal. So typical of cops these days.
misjustice on September 16 at 5:57 p.m.
Like I said, it’s their training.
maria on September 16 at 6:01 p.m.
In the report Hirzel himself acknowledges the area around where he parked his unmarked car is a big crime area. Couldn’t he put two and two together? The prowl call was for troublesome teenagers, not shirtless old men. Sharp cop there, indeed.
andrewz on September 16 at 6:08 p.m.
@monkeyman, That’s a good suggestion and one we’ll try to use in the future. At this point, the story is going to stand mostly as is for a bit as our reporter and editors concentrate on finishing it for tomorrow’s paper. We’ll post that when it’s ready.
Deputy city editor just found the information in the report about the incident in California and is updating our story as I type this.
bszottlinger on September 16 at 6:30 p.m.
This was posted Sept. 5 at 9:34
Scoutster:
Ron_the_Cop:
Media and Victim Management Basic 101
Never discuss with any degree of specificity evidence that may be utilized to discredit a witness or suspect involved in a critical incident with members of the victims family, or the media.
The likelihood of public disclosure increases when distraught family members are provided important investigative information which may later become critical in determining the veracity of statements provided by witnesses or suspects.
Example No. 1.
Should evidence found at a post mortem examination reveal facts that are inconsistent with previous statements provided to investigators by witnesses or suspects and such evidence is made public it severely hampers the investigative process and could easily result in witnesses and or suspects adapting their statements in subsequent interviews to what has been made public.
Although a victim’s family members have every right to know the cause of death and some of the circumstances surrounding the manor of death. Specific detail should not be provided until such time as the entire investigation is complete and a charging decision has been made.
Ron, as an investigator would you agree?
SR please ask Mr. Alan Creach who the Spokane Police Detective was that provided him with evidence found at autopsy.
Brad Szottlinger (Perseverance down the toilet)
fredjames on September 16 at 7:08 p.m.
jenylin, glad you can read the paper and use the facts as listed? the latest fact for you to consider, is after an investigation by the police the case was turned over to the prosecutor without a recomendation. That means that, like a stock broker, who is there to push stocks, and says to put a hold on Hirzel, that means a huge no to his story. The police want no part of Hirzel. And this is from his highly supportive team of police officer who are in a Union .. jenyline, the officer said he noticed Creach at 30 feet, so since I was not there, please go measure how many feet it was from Creaches door to the police car. Get back to me on that. If it was more than 30 feet, then Creach had the drop on the guy in the car and had a gun which he could have used while the guy in the car was a sitting duck(Hirzel). But no this preacher who had his gun out , got assulted with a club and murdered for holstering his gun, once more read what Hirzel said . Now if that is a misquote then the newspaper, not me needs to correct that. Next, Jenylin, note that Hirzel said that the man said he had been robbed, he did not say I will blow your head off, or reach for the sky officer I have you in my site. In Viet Nam if this was a fight situation, and it was not, the 74 year old senior would have killed the guy without him knowing what hit him, because Creach clearly knew he had a trespasser on his private property after business hours and he was aware of it from his home! jenilin take a time out go back read the articles , stop pretending to be upset with the facts I use. They are the story as related from Hirzel and the police department to the newspaper, I did not need to be there to read them , stop wasting time
Anne_Observer on September 16 at 7:22 p.m.
Misjustice and others:
Whether it was part of his training, whether he knew Creach was the property owner, whether Creach’s actions were “risky”, etc. are all IRRELEVANT.
Police officers are obligated to use reason and judgment in their actions. A big part of that judgment has to be whether actions in which they are trained are APPROPRIATE under the circumstances!
Hirzel was in the wrong by being on the Creach property in the first place. He compounded that lack of judgment with a sequence of further mistakes, each worse than the last.
Even if everything went exactly as Hirzel described, he should be charged with voluntary manslaughter.
He had NO legal authority to be on the property at all. He had NO legal authority to tell Creach to either drop his gun or get on the ground. No laws were being broken, and Hirzel had no genuine reason to think that any laws were being broken. Therefore his orders to Creach were entirely inappropriate. In short, Hirzel was in the wrong in every way that it was possible for him to be wrong.
With very few exceptions, police are required to follow the same laws as everybody else. If this had been anybody else, there is little doubt they would be charged. Hirzel should be no different.
If anything, I think it should be an aggravating factor that Hirzel was supposed to be a trained officer but screwed up so badly anyway. He is supposed to know better. That, too, is supposed to be part of his training.
misjustice on September 16 at 7:27 p.m.
Anne; have you read Hirzel’s interview? I couldn’t get the one to fully load on the SR link but was able to access the one on KXLY. It’s a must read.
My comments are in no way intended to support Hirzel, or his “training” or Ozzie, or Annie.
Ed Byrnes on September 16 at 8:27 p.m.
I will weigh in again after reading the available documents.
Leaving the recommendation to prosecute to one individual is problematic here, regardless of who that individual is. This is what grand juries, or even better citizen review panels, are for.
bszottlinger on September 16 at 8:38 p.m.
Scoutster:
Notice anything?
Brad
cpd805 on September 16 at 9:27 p.m.
I agree with Byrnes. Leaving the recommendation to prosecute to one individual in such a high profile case is problematic. Citizen review panels would be good, provided the individuals have the necessary knowledge in statutory and case laws, best practices in police policies and procedures, etc.
Grand Juries, however, are a joke. The phrase “You can indict a ham sandwich” came to being for a reason. If you have never seen one, the prosecution presents a case with the defendant sitting there, not able to speak or have anyone speak on their behalf, not able to put into context anything presented by the prosecutor, all one sided. Basically it is a formality and the recommendation is still in effect relegated to one person, the prosecutor.
A better idea would be to have a panel of 4 - 6 County Prosecutors from various counties in the state to review the case and make a recommendation to the prosecutor in which county the incident took place. That prosecutor is still responsible for the decision to prosecute, but he/she would have an objective recommendation by a panel of detatched experts.
bszottlinger on September 16 at 9:38 p.m.
Andrew and Addy:
I noticed among other things in the Hirzel statement of 9/9/10 he was asked if he had taken any medication or any alcohol on the day of the shooting. I find this an odd question if body fluid samples were taken from Hirzel on the night of the shooting unless of course it was an attempt to trap him and the investigators already knew the answer. I also noted in Detective Hammond’s report he makes not mention of samples being taken that night. In those 700 pages if you happen to run across a drug screen or toxicology report of samples taken from Hirzel on 8/25/10 would you let scoutster know right away. I think he has been worrying about making the investigators look bad by whining so much about wanting to know if they did not take the samples.
Thanks,
Brad
bszottlinger on September 16 at 9:44 p.m.
Cpd805:
“the prosecution presents a case with the defendant sitting there, not able to speak or have anyone speak on their behalf”
How many Grand Jurys have you been involved in?
Brad
bszottlinger on September 16 at 10:12 p.m.
Basically, there is no “Defendant” in a Grand Jury proceeding. There are in most cases “Targets” of the Grand Jury. Although not always true, theoretically, the “Target” is not supposed to know the Grand Jury is being conducted. There are occasions when a “Target” may be made aware of the Grand Jury via a “Target Letter”. The “Target” does not sit through the Grand Jury as a defendant would during trial. The Grand Jury is supposed to be a fact finding proceeding which may or may not cause an indictment to issue.
lewis8457 on September 16 at 10:20 p.m.
Lead investigators summary paints a picture of what they will be telling us, or tucker will be telling us.
Some glaring items in the summary I saw was the statement Mrs. Creach was not hysterical but matter of fact. In that statement I feel they are trying to say she knew he had it coming at some point. But in reality SHE WAS IN SHOCK!!!!!!!
Another was that in an employee robbery the sons appeared very anti police. Who knows maybe they knew Otto Zehm.
Reading Hirzels statement and the summary I see Mr. Creach was indeed murdered. Sure he might have said no to getting the ground, but he was able to walk up to the door of a cop sitting in his car. And Hirzel said he positioned his car like that for his safety but he had his window open and Mr. Creach walks right up to it.
When Hirzel called code 6 he sounded startled. I think the assumption that Hirzel was doing something naughty or sleeping is pretty close.
What other reason to shoot him, he backed up so why close a 6 foot gap and hit him with a baton with the gun still in the other hand. Who does that anyway? Seems like a risky maneuver, (while attacking with baton perp knocks gun out of cops’ hand and now he is unarmed). I can’t see any body doing that.
I know what’s coming I think we all do the question is will we do something this time or just wait for it to happen again?
I will say I have seen first hand some good sheriffs here in Spokane, the last two weeks I have been helping my step father at a business he owns where 2 meth heads were squatting, I have never seen anything like it, the fighting and screaming, we saw about 6 sheriffs in a 2 day period and they were all nice and polite. They definitely earned their money that day putting up with those two wasted people. So I know the good cops are out there and I wanted to say thank you.
lewis8457 on September 16 at 10:28 p.m.
Yes a grand jury is how the feds got Karl Thompson in their sites. I can not wait for that trial, if it ever happens.
cpd805 on September 16 at 11:25 p.m.
Brad, I have been involved in exactly zero grand juries. What I know is what I have read and what people who have testified as witnesses have told me….and now from what you have told me. From what I understand, there is also no judge present, so no objections can be brought up. Basically it is a one sided “fact presentation”, making it simple for a prosecutor to secure an indictment.
bszottlinger on September 17 at 8:01 a.m.
Cpd805:
Admittedly a GJ can be a bit one-sided depending upon the presentation and the jury panel. Some panels just sit back and listen, others ask questions or request that the prosecuting authority obtain other evidence. There is a lot of different dynamics involved. The public usually only hears about GJ indictments, they don’t hear about the GJs that don’t return indictments.
The process you are dealing with here where the police report to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor makes a charging decision is also very one-sided. The true test is at trial when both sides present their evidence.
One of the problems with a GJ from the publics standpoint is that they are secret, and if one was utilized in this case the public would only know whether or not an indictment was returned. If Mr. Tucker was the prosecuting authority presenting the case to the GJ I am sure there are those that would question the presentation. However, if a Special Prosecutor independent of all the law enforcement agencies including the prosecutors office was utilized the community may have more confidence in the presentation and the fact that 12 of their peers are reviewing the evidence. State GJs reviewing Officer Involved Deaths take place all over the country.
I think your idea of several other prosecutors reviewing the case is a good one because we likely won’t see a GJ, as long as the prosecutors are not among Mr. Tucker’s list of “Supporters”.
I would like to see a “Special Prosecutor” but I doubt I will.
I am very disappointed in what I have read so far, which is only what the SR has made available. If you compare the Hirzel first interview on 9/3/10 and draw a time line between the public releases of investigative detail and the Hirzel follow-up interview on 9/ 9/10, the answers he gave during the interview are pretty predictable. He even admitted following the media reports. Although Scoutster and I still don’t know at this point if body fluids were take from Hirzel, it doesn’t appear they were. Agent Hammond knew on 8/25/10 that Hirzel had used his baton on Mr. Creach. It is difficult to tell from the 9/3/10 transcript whether or not the investigators had him demonstrate the baton blow on the video tape. I hope they did, it would be a great piece of evidence if he is demonstrating a hard blow intending to take Mr. Creach to the ground and it could have cleared up some issues that have arisen regarding the baton/weapon sequence. A review of the demonstration might also assist the ME in accessing the lack of trauma found. Of course any demonstration on 9/9/10, wouldn’t be worth much because Hirzel new from press accounts that there was no evidence of a blow so any demonstration could easily be shaded toward press accounts.
Another thing that bothers me is that Officer Hammond made a fairly detailed report regarding the scene and various interviews which took place on 8/25/10. However that report apparently was not made until 9/1/10 seven days after the fact. A lot of stuff to remember, I would assume he took notes. Which brings to mind Officer Burbridge’s statement to federal authorities that he had destroyed his notes in the Zehm case. I don’t know if the Creach family is represented, I suspect they are, if it were me I would be writing letters to the prosecutor, the chief, the sheriff, and the WSP demanding that they do not destroy any officer notes.
Brad
lewis8457 on September 17 at 8:19 a.m.
so cpd805 you can spin anything you want like your first GJ post but no one else can? You like to bash other posters for doing the exact same thing you did.
lewis8457 on September 17 at 8:50 a.m.
Brad and i would be banging on the feds door daily.
Ron_the_Cop on September 17 at 9:25 a.m.
Brad and Zelda,
I haven’t read the statements yet and am just going on the S-R reports. Things that catch my attention are the unit’s spotlight being on and Hirzel’s failure to recall that he turned it on. Apparently Creach had gunshot residue/powder on him which is consistent with him being less than five feet away as opposed to Hirzel’s recollection of ten feet or so. I too like Zelda find Hirzel’s statements re the use of the baton a little too pat. As I said before depending on the ETA of the assisting officers, I doubt I would have closed the distance to Creach and used the baton when Creach failed to comply. I would have continued to cover Creach until the assisting officers arrived unless Creach did something aggressively.
The sequence of events, time line, and the lack of hearing Hirzel shouting commands is troubling. Did all of what Hirzel said transpired happen within this time frame including Hirzel having time to get out of unit, close on Creach and hit with baton?
Brad, beyond blood work on Hirzel, I would be interested if there was gunshot residue on the inside/outside of the Hirzel’s patrol unit’s door. Pure speculation but what if Creach did surprise Hirzel. Hirzel quickly turned on the unit’s spotlight, saw Creach’s gun, fired with or without any commands. Perhaps justified but Hirzel embellished the incident with by saying he exited the unit and included the baton strike before firing.
bszottlinger on September 17 at 9:52 a.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
I am going to refrain from speculating on what happened, you investigators can do that. I will however question what I think are legitimate issues with the investigation.
I notice in the most recent shooting by a Sheriff that the press accounts only mention that the WSP is investigating. I wonder if Sheriff Ozzie got fed up with the Chief hiding behind her desk, and making him the fall-guy and decided to change the “Protocol” on his own. I don’t know the first thing about being a Sheriff or a Chief, but I do know the game, and if I was him, and I wouldn’t care if it is important to show a united front or not I would toilet her every chance I got.
Brad
Ron_the_Cop on September 17 at 10:25 a.m.
Brad,
I think WSJ’s involvement is limited to forensics as they have the regional forensic lab. I don’t think they are otherwise involved in managing this investigation. As for crime scene processing this is done by the Sheriff’s Dept forensic people at the direction of the case managers/investigators. SPD contracts with the SO for this service. In this case it was probably the SPD detectives that were directing the collection of the the crime scene.
My scenario is only pure speculation at this point but I do see some inconsistencies in the initial statements of Deputy Hirzel with the evidence/forensic at the scene that have been reported by the S-R. A key factor is whether those processing the crime scene limited themselves to collecting crime scene forensics based on the interviews with Deputy Hirzel. As you suggested before officers can lie.
Swabbing the door and window area of the police unit would generally show if the shot came from inside the patrol unit. Deputy Hirzel says he got out of his unit to confront Creach and later shot him when in his mind Creach was going for his gun. With gunshot residue on Creach the shot came from much closer (five feet or less) than what Hirzel remembered. Hirzel could have been mistaken but this needs to be evaluated in view of the entire investigation and crime scene evidence/forensics.
bszottlinger on September 17 at 10:40 a.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
I meant the shooting last night.
Ron_the_Cop on September 17 at 10:44 a.m.
Ah Ah! I think you’re correct in your speculation re protocol. This probably would have gone to SPD. Sheriff Knezovich’s going to WSP is indeed interesting.
bszottlinger on September 17 at 10:53 a.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
What protocol? There is a protocol? Where?
:)
Ron_the_Cop on September 17 at 11:52 a.m.
Brad LOL,
Do you suppose we should file a PDR with the SPD and the County to get the critical incident protocol and well as the MOU re SPD/SO investigating each other’s incidents?
I would have hope by now the S-R would have done this. These are after all public documents.
cpd805 on September 17 at 11:53 a.m.
Brad,
Thank you for your last post regarding the GJ. You apparently are well versed on the subject [certainly more than I:)]. My realm of experience is in the Municipal, District, and Superior courts. Thank you for explaining the JG system a little better for me.
Ron,
I find it unlikely that Hirzel would make up getting out of the car and using the baton strike for 2 reasons: 1. They had just undergone training for similar situations where it is appropriate to shoot from inside the car….if that’s the training (and it is), why make up something that deviates from your training?….and 2. Hirzel mentions the baton strike during the tactical interview, which is contemporaneous with the shooting incident. That is something he did not come up with after having time the think about it for a while ( like in Vegas). That being said, it is not out of the realm of possibility that he made that up….just seems unlikely.
bszottlinger on September 17 at 12:15 p.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
Mr. Wasson is on it!
Brad
bszottlinger on September 17 at 12:58 p.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
I can see a p..ing contest coming up between Tucker and the ME like in the Zehm case pretty soon. Inquest. You would think the protocol might cover that.
Brad
409 on September 17 at 4:32 p.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
You should read what this retired law enforcement officer (Kivaari) is saying on the KXLY thread.
http://www.kxly.com/news/25044595/detail.html
Ron_the_Cop on September 17 at 6:54 p.m.
thanks 409. I still be interested in swabs on the police unit door indicate Hirzel fired his gun from inside the unit or not.
revbuckley on September 18 at 12:14 a.m.
Why sit on your butt’s and bi*** about the police? If you think they are such a problem get up and join the police department and make it change. “If your not part of the solution your part of the problem.” ever hear that. Why not bi*** about the courts? they are as much of a problem as this. What about the parole board? They release violent offender who have reoffened many times before, because the prisons are over crowded. If this man was a constent “victim” and owned a bussiness, why didn’t he have camaras on his property? Why didn’t his wife call the police when he went outside? People make the mistake thinking guns give them power and athority, but their wrong. It just makes you a target and makes more victims. I have 3 weapons myself, and I will never give them up, but I would have called the police before I opened the door. I would also never argue with a cop while I was armed, Why give them an excuse? Maybe some of the problem is the type of people that live in Spokane. Like the plaza rat hitting her little child child in the head and face while everyone watched, no one stopped her from leaving with that child. Or the plaza rats beating the homeless for no reason. Kids setting the homeless man on fire a few years ago killing him. What about Eastern State Phyc. taking a violent patient to the fair and letting him get away and not calling the police for hours. I was at Mc’Ds on Sprague and Havana withs my friends kids I was watching when he came in. People here just don’t care. No wonder the police are scared of the citizens and are gun happy.
eagleproducer on September 20 at 6:58 p.m.
rev: Yeah, that’s it…