Spokane7
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September 17, 2010 in City
Police report details pastor’s shooting
Case goes to Tucker with no recommendation on charges against Hirzel
Deputy Brian Hirzel told investigators that he feared for his life before he fired the shot that killed Pastor Wayne Scott Creach.
The 733-page investigative file released Thursday by the Spokane Police Department provides the first public glimpse into the deputy’s account of why he opened fire on the 74-year-old man. The documents include forensic, medical and witness reports that detail what happened on Aug. 25 in the parking lot of Creach’s Plant Farm, at 14208 E. Fourth Ave.
“When, when I saw his hand go behind his back and come out with a gun, or the grip of the gun that I saw, there wasn’t a doubt in my mind that he was going to shoot me,” Hirzel, 42, told investigators, according to transcripts. “I, I don’t know why, but that’s what I was thinking.”
Completion of the criminal investigation, which has been turned over to prosecutors, marks the first significant development in a case that has triggered intense debate over police training and procedures and the responsibility of armed and law-abiding property owners to obey law enforcement demands while on their own property.
A final report from the county medical examiner’s office could take a while, pending laboratory toxicology results.
The police reports shed new details on the tragedy, including:
• Disclosures that Hirzel was involved in a fatal encounter while serving as a police officer in Cathedral City, Calif., several years ago. No criminal charges were filed in that case, which reportedly included Hirzel’s use of a controversial chokehold on the individual, who later died.
• Numerous instances of officers, including some who were on duty the night of the shooting, warning Creach over the years that his practice of armed confrontation with people on his property after hours was risky. At least one officer told investigators that he’d advised Creach specifically that he should avoid carrying firearms around law enforcement officers but that Creach adamantly asserted his right to bear arms.
• Hirzel, who was in uniform, switched to an unmarked patrol car just hours before the shooting because someone had left something in his normal, marked Spokane Valley Police Department cruiser that left a foul odor.
• No independent evidence supporting Hirzel’s claim that he struck Creach with his police baton before firing the fatal shot. Hirzel also had a Taser in the front seat but he didn’t grab it before exiting the patrol car.
• Hirzel’s inability to recall several details about the encounter when interviewed by detectives nine days later, such as how close he was to the pastor when he shot him; how it happened that his patrol car’s spotlight was turned on and pointed in Creach’s direction; and whether his request for backup was made before or after the baton strike.
“We have more questions today than the night it happened,” said Alan Creach, son of the slain pastor and businessman. Hirzel “created this situation. It was his intrusion (onto private property). He is the one who made the decision to pull the trigger on Dad. He’s the one who decided he wasn’t safe with my dad having that gun in his waistband.
“I’m hoping there are some officials in this community who will stand up and make changes in the police department because this doesn’t protect folks like my dad at all.”
The investigative file makes no recommendation on whether the shooting is justified or if criminal charges should be filed. That will be left up to Spokane County Prosecutor Steve Tucker, who did not return a phone call Thursday.
It was unclear Thursday why investigators made no recommendation. In the probe of the fatal 2006 police confrontation with Otto Zehm, for example, Spokane police detectives concluded in their report to prosecutors that no criminal charges were warranted, though a federal grand jury has since indicted one of the officers.
Hirzel had been writing a collision report on his computer at 11:07 p.m. when he noticed a light to his left. He then saw a shirtless Scott Creach approaching with a flashlight in his left hand and a gun pointed at the ground in his right hand.
Hirzel said he repeatedly told Creach to drop the weapon and later to get down on the ground, but investigators have found no witnesses who heard any of that conversation before the shot. Only Creach’s wife, Imogene Creach, who was in the family home next door, heard any talking coming from the parking lot and she said the only voice was her husband’s, though she was unable to understand what was said.
Hirzel said he struck Creach with a baton after Creach had tucked his gun in his waistband but refused commands to get down onto the gravel parking lot.
Alan Creach said his father was taking a 325 mg daily dose of aspirin to thin his blood, which caused him to bruise easily. But the autopsy showed no mark on Creach’s knee; no fibers from Creach’s pants were found on Hirzel’s baton and no crush marks were found in Creach’s pants to indicate any type of baton strike.
But Hirzel continued to maintain in interviews that he used the baton even after detectives told him forensic tests provided no evidence to support it.
“You know … one thing that kind of bugs me is the family making a big deal that they couldn’t find any evidence of a baton strike,” Hirzel told detectives. “Well, like I’ve explained, it wasn’t a good strike just the way it came across … so I, I wouldn’t expect there to be a lot of injury if any.”
Spokane police Detective Brian Hamond, who was assigned the lead detective as part of an agreement between departments, asked Hirzel why he needed to hit Creach with a baton after Creach had already put his gun in his waistband.
“Again just, just to get him to comply,” Hirzel said. “He wasn’t doing it. I felt that the baton strike was okay, you know, the gun was still in the back waistband, his hands are visible at the time, so I felt it was safe to do that while keeping (him) covered with my gun. I just wanted to get him on the ground till I figured out what was going on and why he was coming up on me with a gun.”
During the exchange, Hirzel said he told Creach five or six times to drop the gun and repeatedly told him to get on the ground. Asked how loud he was speaking, Hirzel said he wasn’t “screaming or chaotic,” but instead was using an “assertive” voice that was raised.
“Think anybody else could have heard it?” Hamond asked during the interview. Hirzel responded: “I don’t know, it was kind of late at night so I, I don’t know if there was anybody else out that would have heard it.”
Hamond in his later summary wrote that only “Mrs. Creach reported hearing a startled voice just before the gunshot. None of the subjects who heard the gunshot reported hearing a startled voice including people who were in the position to do so; most notably the … nearest neighbors.”
Two of those neighbors, Richard and Elizabeth Courser, heard the shot and immediately exited their home. Richard Courser said he heard no voices before the shot and it was very quiet in the parking lot.
Elizabeth Courser “said she could see a spot light directed to the west and pointing somewhat to the ground. Elizabeth said she could see a body on the ground and went in to get a telephone to call 911,” the report states. Asked if she could hear any noise before the shot, “she said she did not and said that sound usually carries through the neighborhood, but she did not hear anything.”
Hirzel also told investigators that he thought he remembered shooting Creach when he was about 6 feet away, though in later interviews he said it might have been closer. The autopsy showed what’s called stippling, or essentially burns in the skin caused by gunpowder residue from a close blast. Later forensic tests with Hirzel’s .45 caliber Glock pistol caused stippling at shots ranging up to 4 feet, but no stippling from 5 feet and farther.
And, Hirzel told investigators that he did not use his spotlight on Creach. But several witnesses and responding deputies said the spotlight was on, illuminating the area where Hirzel described the confrontation, when they arrived on scene.
After he shot Creach, Hirzel remained in essentially a shooting position, asking the first backup deputy to arrive, “Who the (expletive) is this guy?” He had already called for medics and urged arriving deputies to begin CPR while he looked for medical supplies in his car.
Deputy Mark Speer was the first backup deputy to arrive and quickly recognized Creach.
Two years ago, Speer handled the call where Creach chased down a fleeing plant thief and apprehended him at gunpoint while threatening to “blow his head off.”
“I advised Creach to not chase suspects with a loaded gun,” Speer wrote in his report from the Aug. 25 shooting. “Creach disagreed with me and stated he would defend his property and had the right to bear arms anytime he wanted. Creach was polite about his convictions but would not listen to my advice about confronting suspects.”
Closing Geiger: Wise or worrisome? 
DHF on September 17 at 5:06 a.m.
Since the Pastor is no longer here to give his version you only have the confabulation of Deputy Hirzel. Which one do you think will be believed. I think a independent polygraph should be given to the Deputy to see if there is deception in his answers. This whole thing does not pass the smell test. DHF
ChefGus/ John Olsen on September 17 at 5:14 a.m.
This all seems to me as if the deputy did have an angry man with a gun and who did not comply when told what to do.
The first mistake made by going out of your home brandishing a large caliber weapon. The second mistake was not stopping at a reasonable/recognizable distance from the “unmarked, but easily recognizable” patrol car to identify himself, and say he was armed to question the officer. This was a situation which likely could have been resolved without armed conflict of any kind, simply with some conversation.
If and when the pastor reached for his previously “holstered” weapon it is reasonable to have the officer fear for his life, and it resulted in the use of ultimate force.
It is a sad case, and there were any number of other alternatives that might have played out… that did not.
Lesson learned here is that arming your self to enforce justice by yourself cowboy style is a slippery slope we must avoid. This was a tragedy waiting to happen. John Olsen
lucs on September 17 at 5:18 a.m.
Great story, no doubt improved by the desert air in Vegas.
maria on September 17 at 7:19 a.m.
I don’t blame the old man if he did reach for his weapon after getting whacked on the knee. He probably had bad knees, too, due to his age. Honestly, I don’t believe one word the Derputy mumbled out in his interview. I don’t think the Derputy ever used his baton at all. I think he shot the preacher while sitting in his patrol car. What the *$#% would he get out of his car for?
Sadbuttrue on September 17 at 7:24 a.m.
Clear-cut egregious violations of the constitution, even if you take the Deputy’s contradictory statements at face value.
Creach was not a suspect, therefore demanding that he get to the ground was clearly an unconstitutional seizure, particularly on his own property where the cop was the intruder and had no permission to be there. Using a baton on a non-suspect clearly violates the constitution’s prohibition against unreasonable force (no force whatsoever can be used where there is no reasonable suspicion that a crime had been committed). The use of deadly force, where there was no reasonable suspicion that a felony had been committed or was about to be committed, was clearly unwarranted and in violation of the constitution.
This cop unreasonably placed himself on private property without permission, then unreasonably escalated the use of force until it unreasonably turned deadly.
This cop needs to go to prison for the protection of society, and needs to be arrested with dispatch to protect the public. As soon as Tucker inevitably declines to prosecute, the public needs united and demand that the Feds step in and vigorously enforce the constitution. We are not safe with cops like this running around loose on the street.
misjustice on September 17 at 7:32 a.m.
“Hirzel’s inability to recall several details…”
“Hirzel also told investigators that he thought he remembered shooting Creach when he was about 6 feet away, though in later interviews he said it might have been closer.”
Hmmmm…I thought that time IMPROVED the memory of cops?
Maybe not so much.
remember_alamo on September 17 at 7:36 a.m.
I know a man who drove taxi and people would try to rob him at gun point and he would take their gun away from them and beat them with it. My question and I am sure the burning question on everyone’s mind is the same. why couldn’t or why didn’t this 30 or 40’s man take the gun away from 74 year old Scott Creach.
I believe Lord help my unbelief.
misjustice on September 17 at 7:40 a.m.
“The autopsy showed what’s called stippling, or essentially burns in the skin caused by gunpowder residue from a close blast. Later forensic tests with Hirzel’s .45 caliber Glock pistol caused stippling at shots ranging up to 4 feet, but no stippling from 5 feet and farther.”
Seems as if Hirzel was very close to Mr. Creach, not 6 feet (or more) away from him as he initially said, before backtracking and changing his testimony. But hey, 6 feet, or 4 feet, or 2 feet; heck it’s hard to remember…even though the passage of time is supposed to IMPROVE a cop’s memory!
RValenzCatCityPD8702 on September 17 at 7:41 a.m.
Well said Chef, you are the first person I’ve read that at least understands the dynamics of humans unders extreme circumstances such as this. As I’ve said before, I feel bad for the Creach family but unfortunately Mr. Creach chose an innappropriate method for handling the security of his property. Even “Ron the Cop” will have to admit, the law allows for the defense of your property with the use of deadly force only when your safety is threatened such as in an intruder into your occupied residence. Not for the security of your plants, petty theft or other misdemeanor crimes.
I’m also amazed how much information is published about this incident such as direct quotes, forensics and other evidence. Here in California, it is not quite this way and officers are provided specific rights in AB 301, the Peace Officers Bill of Rights.
I’ve known and worked with Brian for many years and trust his judgement. It’s unfortunate that this incident happened, but I know he is not the the brash migrated So Cal cop with a heavy hand your community is making him out to be. He’s always been a professional and great source of support with his humor and friendship.
Just fyi, typically after any critical incident, the officer(s) involved are given “Administrative time off”. This is not mandatory but highly advised to allow you to be with your family and “wrap your head around” what has happened. You are encouraged to keep your routine, which is impossible since normally you’d be at work. So instead, many officers find outlets such as learning something new; surfing, skiing even underwater basket weaving. Anything to get your mind straight. It’s not a party time, just a way to things into perspective. If Brian would have normally gone on vacation, I don’t a psychologist or counselor would have disagreed.
Well, that my 2 cents. I’m sure someone’s gonna have fun ripping into it. Have at it. But remember, until you’ve been there, through an incident like this, none of you have any clue of how fast things change and can change your life.
Take care Termite. It gets better.
wgriffith on September 17 at 7:42 a.m.
This is a sensless tradegy and we will probably never know exaxtly what transpired. There were probably mistakes made on both sides. I pray for the Creach family and for Deputy Hirzel. But, I have to note that, even for a law abiding citizen, after the officer says ‘Put the weapon on the ground” is NOT the time to engage in a constutional debate. Holding a gun is such a situation will never end well. The officer will not give you a constutional ruling. That is what the courts are for. And you have to be alive to sue.
Thanks
lewis8457 on September 17 at 7:45 a.m.
I thought the statements by police that were judgments went into the summary were out of place for a reason, like Mrs. Creach didn’t seem hysterical but matter of fact. How does that have any business being in the summary?
And his sons appeared to not be police friendly in a recent theft
Or two males were at scene irate and they might have been the sons.
Now why is any of that in the summary? To cover ass?
Isn’t it odd how they run the preacher almost shot man in head and then release the summary with this stuff in it?
Just proves to me they can kill ANYONE and make it look like the victims fault. Even a pastor and pillar if our community.
John You always brag about how you carry, so your on your property late at night, a cop comes out of the shadows and shoots you point blank, try to tell me you didn’t have the right to protect your property with a gun and the cop had the right to shoot you dead.
lewis8457 on September 17 at 7:52 a.m.
so who has more responsibility? The home owner woke out of sleep, or the 100 grand a year highly trained cop? Who?
Isn’t this why we pay the cops so much so they don’t use instinct as the layman might?
If all they can think of doing with a man 4 feet away is to shoot him in the chest then we are paying too much.
maria on September 17 at 7:57 a.m.
RValenzCatCityPD8702: Did your little buddy also sell swizzle sticks in CA?
bszottlinger on September 17 at 8:07 a.m.
Cpd805:
Admittedly a GJ can be a bit one-sided depending upon the presentation and the jury panel. Some panels just sit back and listen, others ask questions or request that the prosecuting authority obtain other evidence. There is a lot of different dynamics involved. The public usually only hears about GJ indictments, they don’t hear about the GJs that don’t return indictments.
The process you are dealing with here where the police report to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor makes a charging decision is also very one-sided. The true test is at trial when both sides present their evidence.
One of the problems with a GJ from the publics standpoint is that they are secret, and if one was utilized in this case the public would only know whether or not an indictment was returned. If Mr. Tucker was the prosecuting authority presenting the case to the GJ I am sure there are those that would question the presentation. However, if a Special Prosecutor independent of all the law enforcement agencies including the prosecutors office was utilized the community may have more confidence in the presentation and the fact that 12 of their peers are reviewing the evidence. State GJs reviewing Officer Involved Deaths take place all over the country.
I think your idea of several other prosecutors reviewing the case is a good one because we likely won’t see a GJ, as long as the prosecutors are not among Mr. Tucker’s list of “Supporters”.
I would like to see a “Special Prosecutor” but I doubt I will.
I am very disappointed in what I have read so far, which is only what the SR has made available. If you compare the Hirzel first interview on 9/3/10 and draw a time line between the public releases of investigative detail and the Hirzel follow-up interview on 9/ 9/10, the answers he gave during the interview are pretty predictable. He even admitted following the media reports. Although Scoutster and I still don’t know at this point if body fluids were take from Hirzel, it doesn’t appear they were. Agent Hammond knew on 8/25/10 that Hirzel had used his baton on Mr. Creach. It is difficult to tell from the 9/3/10 transcript whether or not the investigators had him demonstrate the baton blow on the video tape. I hope they did, it would be a great piece of evidence if he is demonstrating a hard blow intending to take Mr. Creach to the ground and it could have cleared up some issues that have arisen regarding the baton/weapon sequence. A review of the demonstration might also assist the ME in accessing the lack of trauma found. Of course any demonstration on 9/9/10, wouldn’t be worth much because Hirzel new from press accounts that there was no evidence of a blow so any demonstration could easily be shaded toward press accounts.
Another thing that bothers me is that Officer Hammond made a fairly detailed report regarding the scene and various interviews which took place on 8/25/10. However that report apparently was not made until 9/1/10 seven days after the fact. A lot of stuff to remember, I would assume he took notes. Which brings to mind Officer Burbridge’s statement to federal authorities that he had destroyed his notes in the Zehm case. I don’t know if the Creach family is represented, I suspect they are, if it were me I would be writing letters to the prosecutor, the chief, the sheriff, and the WSP demanding that they do not destroy any officer notes.
Brad
misjustice on September 17 at 8:09 a.m.
Hirzel admitted in one of the followup interviews that he read news accounts of the homicide; even AFTER being told NOT TO! And he was upset with what he read; awwww.
It’s extremely rich that a CA cop comes on the blogs to defend his buddy. Please RValenzCatCity stay in CA; Spokane doesn’t need anymore CA cop transplants.
maria on September 17 at 8:17 a.m.
Funny, absolutely no evidence of a baton strike…no fibers, no bruises, no crushed material on the pastor’s pants….Hirzel was dishonest when he didn’t disclose his swizzle bizzle so why wouldn’t he lie about a baton strike?
Ninch on September 17 at 8:22 a.m.
Chef Gus and others of his viewpoint so easily discard the law that in the State of Washington one is allowed to carry a firearm in full view, especially on their own property… and an “unmarked” police car is not so self-evident especially in the dark. Also one should not assume the officer is telling the truth about the pastor reaching for his gun.
Another example of police overreaction is that a Seattle police officer murdered an elderly Native American downtown because the guy (who was seated) would not drop his knife (with a 3” blade). Although the elder was not threatening anyone and in fact possessed a knife in full view because he was a traditional wood carver, the police officer chose to kill him. (Later reports note that the old guy was deaf in one ear.) Again in the State of Washington it is legal to possess such a knife …and to be considered a lethal weapon the knife blade would have had to be at least 3-1/2 inches long.
It seems that too many police officers (and uninformed citizens) deem it okay to murder people who legally bear firearms and knives because the apparently paranoid police officer feels his life is in danger. Note in neither of the above cases did the victim attack or even threaten the police office. Other examples include the shooting of unarmed Native American Shonto Pete in the head by an off-duty police officer who used the “gay” defense. Most infamous is the Zehm murder by police officers who were caught lying about Zehm being the attacker and this coming to light because of the on-site security videotape.
Bottom line there are good police officers, but too many others are incompetent police officers who overreact and kill or intend to kill innocent citizens such as an elderly pastor, two Native Americans (one an elder), and a developmentally disabled man. What I see here is a pattern of civil rights violations against protected classes of people who committed NO crimes. I am surprised that Chef Gus did not instantly pick up on this.
misjustice on September 17 at 8:23 a.m.
AND he watched news accounts of the homicide; possibly doing his “homework”, looking for what was already known so he could adjust his testimony accordingly?
Ha, ha, ha; swizzle bizzle! Fo schizzle!
lewis8457 on September 17 at 8:41 a.m.
Unless they bring charges it is all just a mute point isnt it?
the police have no desire to weed out the bad ones and so they continue to effect the rest of the squad.
Many on here believe if you are on your property with a gun in your hand you can simply be put down for that sole reason. And then there are people like me that just want our justice system to work for EVERYONE. and we see daily how that is not the case and there isn’t a damn thing we can do about it.
The cops come on these blogs and basically show us how ignorant at times and judgemental they are. Proving to me they feel they are above my standard and therefore my life is not worth as much as theirs. And that scares me. our justice sytem makes them above our standard because when they die it a big deal, when we die no big deal, when they break the law they go home we go to jail, when prosecutor looks at their case he throws it out when he looks at ours he throws us in jail. and I believe that is the crux of the problem
smokeyjo62 on September 17 at 8:45 a.m.
After reading part of the report on this story, it clearly states this Deputy has used excessive force in the past. And has gotten away with it as well. In my opinion the Deputy has made up a lot as the investigation goes on. It’s obvious this Deputy uses excessive force and doesn’t look at the big picture first. Shoots and then speaks. The Deputy knows he’s not being fully honest, he just doesn’t want to take responsibility for his actions. Another thing, how on earth can anyone in good sense go on vacation after killing a human being? He has no remorse for what has happened. Then after returning from vacation, gives part of his side then leaves again and finishes his vacation. Doesn’t that sound a bit strange? He can’t recall part of what happened is proof he isn’t being honest. He is covering up for his mistakes. I hope he is found covering up in this investigation and taken off the force. It is obvious he is not an officer who is capable of protecting our community, but takes away from our community and loving families. He needs to step up to the plate and tell the truth. The whole truth.
monkeyman on September 17 at 8:49 a.m.
Sometimes sh*t happens. This time with tragic results. Anybody who has been in a life threatening situation would know how things just seem to move on their own. But the Police dept does need to clean their act up in how they handle investigations.
I guess the local lawyers’ job security has improved in the short term.
@misjustice, in regards to the stippling, police officer’s extended hands & gun would add another 2 feet or so towards the target.
bszottlinger on September 17 at 8:55 a.m.
Rvalenz:
I have tried to discuss the various POBRs that are code in many States, but no takers.
As an example, in Maryland it can be up to 10 days before an interview takes place with the involved officer. I too am amazed at the amount of investigative detail that has been leaked and released. I feel it hurts the fact finding process.
I would think you would admit that not only is it important that the public has confidence in the investigative process, but also it is important to the officer involved that he has confidence that a competent investigation is conducted. In the past that has not been the case here in Spokane so the citizenry is upset and I would bet all of the good officers here are as well. I suspect that there will be a number of changes that take place in Spokane regarding this type of incident as result of this case. I hope they are for the better.
The protocols for Officer Involved Investigations in California are not perfect by any means they are however considerably better than they are in Spokane.
Care to comment?
Brad Szottlinger
misjustice on September 17 at 9:03 a.m.
Well, smokeyjo, there’s truth and then there’s “truthiness”.
“Hirzel’s inability to recall several details about the encounter when interviewed by detectives nine days later, such as how close he was to the pastor when he shot him; how it happened that his patrol car’s spotlight was turned on and pointed in Creach’s direction; and whether his request for backup was made before or after the baton strike.”
Maybe Hirzel is unable to recall several troubling details because the situation did not unfold as he’d like us to believe it did. Why can’t he remember if the call was made before or after the alleged baton strike? And the spotlight? And where he was standing when he shot Mr.Creach? Oh, but protocol dictates that an officer’s memory IMPROVES with the passage of time…right?
By now Hirzel’s memory should be crystal clear, 23 days after the homicide. And yet, his answers to investigators seem to indicate the opposite. His own answers contradict the other “evidence” such as having his spotlight on…I doubt the veracity of his claims.
bszottlinger on September 17 at 9:05 a.m.
Justy:
Do you now see why I am so adamantly opposed to the release of investigative detail until the investigation is complete?
Brad
misjustice on September 17 at 9:08 a.m.
monkeyman; do investigators take the additional 2 feet into consideration when giving the 4 feet figure? Or would it be 4 + 2? Or 2 feet actual distance plus the 2 feet for the officer’s stance to equal 4? Can you expand on this?
misjustice on September 17 at 9:09 a.m.
Brad, I never doubt you!
horse_feathers on September 17 at 9:12 a.m.
The spotlight was, on that means the cop lit Creach up. No other logical reason for that light to be on. With the light in his eyes no way would he be able to see the uniform of the officer.
maria on September 17 at 9:21 a.m.
horse feathers: Bingo!
jddavis on September 17 at 9:26 a.m.
So RValenzcatcitypd, when you said “the law allows for the defense of your property with the use of deadly force only when your safety is threatened such as in an intruder into your occupied residence. Not for the security of your plants, petty theft or other misdemeanor crimes.”, are you suggesting that Rev Creach shouldn’t have been armed because someone who was stealing plants, committing petty theft or other misdemeanor crimes would not/could not threaten his safety? I was unaware that Rev Creach used deadly force that night, am I mistaken?
Following your reasoning, law enforcement officers shouldn’t strap on (pun intended) a firearm at the beginning of their shift because they haven’t been threatened yet; or perhaps firetrucks shouldn’t be pre-loaded with water because there is no fire yet.
I fully support “administrative time off” for persons involved in tramatic incidents. I trust that Deputy Hirzel was able to “wrap his head around” this unfortunate incident, perhaps learning “something new” in Vegas. A person doesn’t have to be a cop and have had to shoot someone to know what is right and proper to do after the fact. His vacation is extremely bad form, particularly when the reasoning provided was the county didn’t want to reimburse him for his plane tickets.
Didn’t intend to “rip into” you, but you tee’d me up and I couldn’t hold back.
Sadbuttrue on September 17 at 9:34 a.m.
“even for a law abiding citizen, after the officer says ‘Put the weapon on the ground” is NOT the time to engage in a constutional debate. Holding a gun is such a situation will never end well. The officer will not give you a constutional ruling. That is what the courts are for.”
I agree. And the Courts in this situation, since the Deputy was so clearly in violation of the Constitution on multiple levels, should render a breathtaking extremely-long prison sentence to permanently deter other rogue cops from thinking that they can order citizens around at will for no reason.
Cheezwhiz on September 17 at 9:38 a.m.
Hey Ninch, the cops also killed another Native who seems to go unnoticed. Eagle Michael, who was a 15 year old deaf and mentally challenged kid with a BB gun was shot and killed by the SPD about 10 years ago. No charges ever filed. Justified, as usual. Oops, sorry I killed your kid. I didn’t notice that the barrel was WAY smaller than a .22 caliber, even though “my training” is should have told me different. Seems as though the cops don’t like deaf natives and mentally challenged people.
Is John Olsen (ChefGus) the other native slayer’s brother? I know Jay Olsen has a brother who is also a cop.
Tell me, Chef, how was your brother acquitted for shooting unarmed Shonto Pete in the back of the head, while he was running for his life? Sure was fortunate that the neighbor let Shonto in, or your brother would have executed him and planted a gun on him. How odd that there was never a gun found that your brother alleged he had. Are the dogs losing their senses? How in the world was he acquitted?
Think there is a pretty darn good chance that Hirzel is acquitted, if he miraculously gets charged? Something stinks, besides Hirzel’s marked car.
MrNatural on September 17 at 9:46 a.m.
Guns…risks…eliminate the guns and you eliminate the risks thereof…
Go ahead and dare someone to pry them from your cold dead hand…I don’t care…just realize that your hand (as well as the rest of you) is still cold and dead…
RobertHLocksley on September 17 at 9:52 a.m.
PigBuster, you hit the gold with that post. The police do not tolerate armed citizens, and most people, out of ignorance, accept their intolerance as the norm. That is what’s tragic. The other tragic thing is the “circle the wagons” mentality of the police and “them against us” attitudes. It wasn’t like this 30 years ago. If good officers would stop being enablers for this kind of thinking they could turn it around, much faster than it can be done from the top.
As a LONG time UOF trainer I know whereof I speak…….
Deputy Hirzel states that he used his baton “while keeping him covered with my gun.” That may explain the entire situation. It has seemed odd to me from the start that only one shot was fired. This is not consistent with police training or human reacion to “I was afraid for my life.” Multiple shots would be more expected. One shot is more consistent with an UD, unintentional discharge.
In stress situations when gross motor actions (like hitting with a baton) are performed by one hand up to 20% of that force can be applied by sympathetic contraction to the opposite hand, in this case the one holding the pistol. If deputy Hirzel had his finger on the trigger (very bad and very negligent!) he could easlily have overcome the 5-8lb trigger on his Glock. (The NY trigger is not used by SCSO to my knowledge). There is a good chance this was negligent discharge (= negligent homicide=manslaughter or at least grounds for termination and end of career). The only light at the end of tunnel for Hirzel is a justified shooting, powerful motivation to twist the story. It’s a theory.
CountryChic99027 on September 17 at 9:58 a.m.
Is there a timeframe in which Spokane County Prosecutor Steve Tucker is mandated to issue his decision? Couldn’t possibly come after the election, right?
dtairtime on September 17 at 10:03 a.m.
Whole lotta armchair quarterbacks here. EVeryone seems to know exactly what happened but I doubt we will ever get the whole story.
Things we know.
Mr. Creach was older and felt strongly he had the right to confront anyone who was on his property with a gun after hours of business. He also felt (in error) that he had the right to chase people off of his property with a gun, take them into his custody, handcuff them and bring them back to his house if he felt they stole from him. He also had a gun in his hand and approached a LEO. This DOES NOT make him at fault but it does make him a little less then brilliant.
We really don’t know a lot more. We don’t know if the officer could have disarmed him with non-lethal force. We don’t know if the officer shot him when Creach was only going to put the gun down. We don’t know if Creach was trying to shoot the officer.
To speculate that you know what was really in these men’s hearts shows how little you really know.
bszottlinger on September 17 at 10:09 a.m.
RobertHLocksley:
Based on your background I am assuming that you would agree that a video taped physical demonstration by Officer Hirzel on 9/3/10 using a similar baton and weapon would aid an expert witness in assessing the possibility of an unintentional discharge.
Brad
bszottlinger on September 17 at 11:26 a.m.
Justy:
Help me out here will you. Why is it that when I ask what I think is a simple question no one answers me? For example RobertHLocksley who says he has been in the Spokane Criminal Justice System for 25 years and now indicates he is a long time use of force trainer yet he doesn’t respond. Ahhh, maybe he is busy. Is it my presentation? Is it the fact that the girls don’t type and spell well? I mean I willing to conform but I’m not sure just how.
Brad
Ron_the_Cop on September 17 at 11:59 a.m.
I haven’t read this entire thread. I just posted this in the thread on Tucker having the case a little while ago.
Here’s my two cents re the inconsistencies between Hirzel’s account and the forensics/evidence as reported by the S-R:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/16/prosecutors-reviewing-creach-shooting-probe/?comments#c193167
Ron_the_Cop on September 17 at 12:36 p.m.
Ok for Brad, Maria and RValenzCatCityPD8702,
I’ve scanned this thread now. As I’ve said in other threads.
RValenz - Yes owner has right to patrol property armed but must exercise some common sense. BTW fell free to check with my colleagues at Riverside PD, CA that I’m generally a straight shooter. My AKA was “Rocket”. I was just leaving office as president when the Tyisha MIller shooting occurred. If you recall we had very large demonstration in our city led by the Revs Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and Maxine Watters and others.
NO TRESPASS issue here.
Creach well within his rights to patrol his property armed and challenge people on his property. Of course one must use common sense. If an officer in uniform orders you to drop your gun you do so and don’t debate the issue.
There is clearly an initial identification here - on duty LE officer and property owner patrolling his property. Both have responsibilities.
Creach has been confrontational in the past re his carrying a gun on his property.
Apparently Hirzel not familiar with Creach - may be critical to what set off this unfortunate series of events that had a bad outcome.
There’s the spotlight issue and Hirzel’s inability to recall.
I have issues with the whole baton thing re being too pat. Did this occur? As recounted by Hirzel did all of this occur within the known time frame?
Witnesses that were in hearing range did not hear orders/commands of Hirzel. Is this an inconsistency?
I have issues with the 48 hour protocol. I definitely have issues re SPD’s investigative abilities of critical incident investigations - the Zehm case and lack of investigation in the Jo Ellen Savage death in the RPS parking garage.
I have no confidence in Co Prosecutor Steve Tucker’s ability to investigate his way out of a paper bag let alone know when he’s in one. He clearly by his position is the one who should have brought all the LE agencies together to develop a decent shooting protocol and to ensure the LE do credible investigations. Instead Tucker has chosen to be MIA and sit back until he gets the police reports.
See my comment in the other thread whether as Maria suggests that Hirzel surprised by Creach shot through his open patrol unit’s window. See my question re crime scene forensics that I linked to above.
And finally where the Hell has Chief Kirkpatrick been? She’s left Sheriff Knezovich on the hot seat. Knezovich was tabbed with the decision to allow the vacation when according to Sheriff Knezovich’s email to me this was not the case.
I see as Brad noted that Sheriff Knezovich has sought to have the WSP investigate the latest OIS that occurred last night. Do you suppose he’s lost confidence in SPD too?
And Addy, Dave, and Tom how about filing a PDR for the critical incident protocol and also the memorandum of understanding (MOU) to handle each other’s critical incidents. This is what the Guild was concerned about with its vote of no confidence of Chief Kirkpatrick. She apparently was dragging her feet in nailing down the specifics/nuts/bolts of this protocol. As a former police union president this would be of critical importance to me for the reasons that Brad suggests that the shooting team was at the top of their game to handle one of these incidents both to be independent and fair to the officers involved.
RobertHLocksley on September 17 at 1:18 p.m.
Brad:
Sorry I’m an old guy and I don’t get on the computer that often. I’m not sure what video you are referring to but It might show something, it might not. An unintentional discharge is an anomoly. If you use guns long enough you will have one, but it’s a 1 out of many 1000s occurance so therefore not very predictiable. The key factor of course is keep your finger off of the trigger unless you are in the act of shooting. That way if 1) a startle response 2) sympathetic contraction or 3) loss of balance occur you don’t wind up pulling the trigger. Keeping your gun pointed in a safe direction is the fail safe so when you screw up, as everyone eventually does (guilty) it’s just embarrasing and sobering, no one gets hurt.
Again I suggest the UD as a theory, not in any way a conclusion, but it does fit the fact set as it stands now.
RHL
Ron_the_Cop on September 17 at 2:34 p.m.
RobertHLocksey,
Your scenario is quite possible. That’s why I have issues with the use of the baton. In order to be effective I would have probably holstered my weapon for that very reason of an unintended discharge.
I always carried my weapon pointed down low unless during an entry and building search clearing rooms or covering a suspect. At those times I had it a eye level ready to shoot but kept my finger out of the trigger guard unless I intended to fire.
BTW RValenzCatCityPD8702 you can read my vitae here:
http://tinyurl.com/265r62g
While there are many fine men and women working at SPD they have serious issues at the police command staff level e.g., the Otto Zehm case, the Savage case and others. I believe Sheriff Knezovich tries to do the right thing but I’m disappointed in him re the Savage manslaughter case for not taking Co Prosecutor Tucker to task. Tucker in essence dumped a first-degree manslaughter case without compelling a complete and thorough criminal investigation as called for by former Sheriff Tony Bamonte of Breaking Blue Fame:
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/interactive/bookclub/reviews/staff_review.asp?RevID=24
Sorry Ryan, Addy, and Dave I believe this is all relative to what we’re discussing here - public transparency/trust of law enforcement investigation of critical incidents. Ofc. Thompson and Deputy Hirzel may be well being made the scapegoats for much deeper issues within our law enforcement community that our elected won’t or refuse to deal with e.g., the City vs. the Police Guild over the revision of the Ombudsman Ordnance.
Do you see a common thread here re the involvement of the City Attorney’s Office re it’s penchant for keeping what should be by right public documents secret as legal work product? It’s involvement to the point of interfering with the Zehm case. Was this investigation mismanaged or misdirected because of their involvement to limit the City’s liability? Now we have Chief Deputy Counsel Emacio (Who works for Tucker BTW) refusing to release the names of officers in other police reports against the wishes of Sheriff Knezovich.
If you’ve followed my inquiries re the federal grand jury investigation of the Savage death you will know it was Emacio that refused to correct the record citing inappropriately this state’s public records/case law in this area.
RValenzCatCityPD8702 - Trust me it is worlds different here than in So Cal. There is a level of systemic corruption in Spokane that extends all the way to the Governor’s Office when it comes to dealing with the power elite in this town. One of which owns the local press and one of the network TV affiliates. It controls what goes for the other media by unfair predatory business practices because it controls as much as 80% of the advertising revenue in this market.
Until very recently with Shawn Vestel’s article questioning Chief Kirkpatrick for being MIA in the Hirzel investigation (One in which her agency was the lead), it’s been hands off re public criticism of her time in office. Why do you suppose?
Sheriff Bamonte and I have both been trying to educate the public that there is a problem within the law enforcement community but so far we’ve been seen as men from Mars. If your interested you can read more here:
http://tinyurl.com/ykemtqr
http://tinyurl.com/ybgkjqe
ChefGus/ John Olsen on September 17 at 3:53 p.m.
In response to a couple of queries and barbs…
No i am not a police officer’s brother…and in fact raised many questions and issues around all of the other suspicious police events over the past five years… if you click on my name above you have a little biography on me.. and you will see I am a regular poster on this site for a couple of years ( as opposed to a few days for a number of you).. I am identifiable, and findable.. i’m in the phone book and volunteer in the open everyday… I’ve worked with the committee on the Ombudsman and am on an Ad Hoc committee that will be giving recommendations on Taser use this next year.
I also am not saying the Pastor did not have a right to “Open Carry”… but open carry and not in a holster outside your belt are two entirely different things. Brandishing a .45 Cal Semi Auto without a round in the chamber is a threat of death to the person on the other side and might be responded to as such. Taking your weapon out of your belt after putting it there tells me you are going to use it or brandish it some more.
In long years of concealed carry I have never ever taken it out in any instance period to deal with a “situation”… I have on three occasions racked a round into the chamber, when there was fear enough to warrant… and then put it back in it’s place and walked on by the threat.
There are different ways that people use sidearms… and my point was that the pastor may well have a right to do whatever he chooses… but there are avoidable consequences from a different choice. Vigilante justice ( taking the law into your own hands) is not what society is about. Threatening to “blow someone’s head off” over a stolen plant is likely a prosecutable occurrence ….
When I am stopped for a traffic infraction at night I turn on the inside lights of my car… put both hands up on the steering wheel and wait for the officer to come and talk to me… when I speak, i inform the officer that i am a concealed carry…. and when asked if I am carrying i say yes and give the location of the gun…. Then and only then do I get my paperwork for him or her. No problems… ( they know I’m a concealed carry from my license plate before they come up to the window anyway… John
Sadbuttrue on September 17 at 5:25 p.m.
Creach’s absolute lack of a criminal record, particularly a violent criminal record is a critical fact in the Graham v. Connor analysis on whether the Fourth Amendment’s proscription against unreasonable force. There is nothing, and I mean nothing in his record or background, that would have justified the use of either the baton or the gun against Creach. Hirzl’s ignorance of that background - HE WAS PARKED WITHOUT CREACH’S PERMISSION OR KNOWLEDGE ON HIS PROPERTY AND DID NOT KNOW THE BACKGROUND OF THE HOMEOWNER!!! - indicates that Hirzl had devastatingly terrible situational awareness. Hirzl, the alleged professional here, injected himself into a dangerous situation for no good reason, and made it lethally dangerous for himself and Creach every single step of the way.
Oh, he felt his life was in danger, did he, after all of the above appalling mistakes and bad judgment? We can’t have HIM pay the consequences for his serial stupidity, now can we?
This case cries out for a multi-decades prison sentence for these egregious constitutional violations and appallingly terrible judgment.
chouligirl on September 17 at 5:42 p.m.
Personally, I do not believe a single word Hirzel has said.
There is no one to dispute his testimony since the Pastor is dead. Hirzel has killed before in CA and it didn’t bother him enough to change occupations. I would think taking a life would be pretty traumatic on a person. Well, now he’s got 2 deaths under his belt.
This guy has an attitude problem and should be convicted of murder. Otherwise he’ll just pop up somewhere else and be a cop on the loose again. Or maybe they can get by on his wife’s income from selling “adult” products out of their next home. Do you believe this??! The bottom of the barrel…
If this isn’t prosecuted it will be a huge signal that the police are corrupt to the core.
davidw on September 17 at 6:19 p.m.
@bszottlinger:
Just checking the comment threads for the first time today — it’s actually a day off for me, so I’m uncertain how the discussion went in the newsroom this a.m. regarding posting of the entire 733-page report.
For the average reader, the two sections we posted last night should provide a good, basic understanding of the confrontation while illustrating the depth of the SPD investigation and providing ample detail about the tragic encounter from multiple perspectives.
Your questions and observations, however, tend to go beyond basic, and while I’m unable to answer all of them off the top of my head, I do recall portions of the investigative report that might be of interest to you given your questions about the baton strike.
The investigative team had Hirzel physically demonstrate the baton strike at least three times, during at least two separate meetings. One of the reasons that kind of stuck with me among the 733 pages Clouse and I read yesterday afternoon is because one of the investigators noted that Hirzel’s third demonstration, which was provided during a followup interview, was more fluid (can’t remember if that’s the exact word, but it was something to that effect) than the earlier demonstrations the deputy had provided. Nothing wrong with that, obviously, but given the antiseptic nature of much of the report, the observation stood out almost like the F bomb narrative from the first backup deputy on the scene.
The investigation team, in fact, appeared to focus a lot of attention on the baton use, at one point contacting California authorities in an effort to determine how officers at the time Hirzel was going through training were taught to reholster (not sure if that’s the right term) their batons. Apparently, some of the investigators had questions over how a baton could be reholstered while still covering a subject with a drawn pistol, but that there was something about the way the baton hook was attached that made a quick reholstering possible, or something like that.
Anyway, hope that helps. When I get back to the office next week, I’ll review that section to make sure I’ve recalled it correctly and will update if I’ve misrepresented it in some way, but I’m quite confident that won’t be necessary.
Have a good weekend,
David Wasson
Deputy City Editor
spokanecougar on September 17 at 6:49 p.m.
Just reaffirms my believe that this deputy murdered this man in cold blood and should be sitting in jail being welcomed by all the other prisoners who I am sure love seeing cops locked up.
Ron_the_Cop on September 17 at 6:58 p.m.
FYI KXLY reports indicate autopsy report consistent with Hirzel’s shot was on downward trajectory entering from left are and down through chest:
Prosecutor Receives Creach Shooting Investigation Report
http://www.kxly.com/news/25044595/detail.html
JohnG on September 17 at 7:01 p.m.
One possible scenario: Scott recognizes that the intruder in his parking lot is a deputy. Scott puts his gun away. The deputy keeps insisting that Scott put his gun and himself on the ground. Scott finally decides that he better comply as the deputy is out of his car and has a gun trained right at him. Scott reaches for his gun so that he can comply with the deputies orders and the deputy panics and shoots Scott. Before the deputy pulled the trigger he had to realize that Scott was a small man in stature and an older man that he could have easily over powered before Scott could have reached to his back where the gun was and then shoot. Scott at this point would have had absolutely no reason to be reaching for his gun to do anything but comply to the deputies orders.
Ron_the_Cop on September 17 at 7:05 p.m.
John G,
If Hirzel did the baton strike as indicated, you explanation is what I said in another thread some time ago.
bszottlinger on September 17 at 9:35 p.m.
Mr. Wasson:
Thank you very much for your response. My interest is whether or not on the video tape of the 9/3/10 interview the investigators actually had Officer Hirzel stand up in front of the camera with a baton and weapon and demonstrate the blow that he administered. Something I can not tell merely from the transcript. I would have to see the video. I’m not sure if you folks have seen it or not, but it would be interesting to have it posted to watch. Any on camera demonstration by Officer Hirzel on 9/9/10 or there after could have been tainted because by that time information regarding the baton blow and lack of consistent evidence on Mr. Creach’s body had been leaked to the press.
My reference to Ron_the_Cop as to you being “on it” was regarding a copy of the “Protocol”, which I understood you folks to be looking into.
Again thank you very much,
Brad Szottlinger
bszottlinger on September 17 at 10:10 p.m.
Mr. Wasson:
I forgot to mention that we are all very interested as to whether or not blood samples were taken from Officer Hirzel on the night of the shooting, and whether there are any drug screen or toxicology reports among the 733 pages.
Again thank you very much,
Brad Szottlinger
davidw on September 22 at 2:02 p.m.
@bszottlinger:
Hirzel’s first two baton demonstrations were videotaped, but were given while he was seated, since the questions were largely limited to how he drew the baton.
The third demonstration was during a followup interview that was neither video or audio taped. In that demonstration, Hirzel was standing rather than sitting like in the other two — and that is what the lead investigator, Hamond, makes reference to when noting that the demonstration was less “clumsy” than the earlier ones.
Didn’t check on the blood samples yet.
My understanding is that the Creach family has similar questions and apparently tried asking the detectives about it — as well as other questions — but was told that SPD won’t answer any more of the family’s questions based on advice from its legal department.