Spokane7
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August 30, 2011 in City
Atheist group buys ads on STA buses
A STA bus with sign reading “Are you good without God? Millions Are” leaves the Bus Plaza, August 30, 2011 in downtown Spokane, Wash. The ads have been paid for by the United Coalition of Reason, on behalf of a new local chapter.
(Full-size photo)
An advertisement appearing on Spokane public buses was bought by a national atheist coalition and coincides with the appearance of an atheist booth at the Spokane County Interstate Fair.
The message, “Are you good without God? Millions are,” is running this month on 11 Spokane Transit Authority buses.
The ad campaign, which ends Sept. 25, was purchased for $4,516 by the United Coalition of Reason on behalf of the newly formed Spokane Coalition of Reason, an alliance of three local nontheistic organizations.
“It’s to let the people know that we are here, and we are at the fair for them to come talk to us,” said Ray Ideus, a former Lutheran minister who is now coordinator of the Spokane Coalition of Reason.
Ideus said the point was not to try to convert anyone, but to let fellow non-believers know they are not alone. The Spokane ad campaign is part of a larger effort.
Since 2009, similar ads have run on billboards and buses in 25 states and the District of Columbia, according to Fred Edwords, national director of the United Coalition of Reason.
“Nontheists sometimes don’t realize there’s a community for them because they’re inundated with religious messages at every turn,” Edwords said in a news release. “We hope our effort will serve as a beacon and let them know they aren’t alone.”
Ideus also said he hoped the campaign would show people reluctant to reveal themselves that “there are more atheists than people realize.”
“I have brought more people out of the closet than I ever converted to Christ when I was a minister for 30 years,” Ideus said.
He said the message chosen for the Spokane campaign was softer than campaigns appearing in other parts of the country because, “we didn’t want to be that negative.”
Rights panel poorly understood 
misjustice on August 30 at 4:14 p.m.
Cool!
I’m okay!
; )
polistra on August 30 at 4:20 p.m.
The media seem to think this is controversial. It isn’t.
Fact is, verbal propaganda by any sort of religious group, whether pro-God or anti-God, simply isn’t all that effective.
Look at Russia and America. Both have been barraged with constant anti-Christian propaganda for a long time. In Russia it was official and harsh, but it stopped 20 years ago. In America it’s less official but still going.
Both countries have remained firmly Christian.
ManleyPointer on August 30 at 4:23 p.m.
This is terrific. I’ve always believed that Christianity (and any other religion) should be subject to examination, discussion and even dissection in the free marketplace of ideas, and this initiative to push atheism should be considered in the same light. If any religious belief (or non-belief, for that matter) cannot stand up to scrutiny in the marketplace of ideas, it should be reconsidered and possibly discarded.
Shadedmuse on August 30 at 4:28 p.m.
It’s called free speach people protected bt constitution, anyone that has a problem with the message then you need to stop doing Acid, and put down the Bong.
GC on August 30 at 4:39 p.m.
Yeah-glad to know free speech is alive and well in our country-love it! Love it even with the love of my God in my heart!
madscientist on August 30 at 4:53 p.m.
The real interesting thing is STA here. for only 4,000 dollars? so basically I could advertise any ol’ slogan on 11 buses for this amount of money? STA is definetly hurting for money if they would allow this sort of message to be on their buses.
tobiasg on August 30 at 4:59 p.m.
Madscientist, what is the going rate in similar cities for signage of this size on city buses for one month? Enlighten us since you know so much. Or is your problem with “this sort of message on THEIR buses?” You do know they are OUR buses, right?
lowtechmaster on August 30 at 5:06 p.m.
Free speech is one of the most important things our nation is about! Free enterprise is another!
Leo_Z on August 30 at 5:48 p.m.
Very nice. We have a couple humanist billboards in Moscow, I love to see positive non-theist messages.
Liberty_Bell on August 30 at 6:04 p.m.
We love the 1st Amendment, it made Christ Famous!
“Moreover, almost all the sects of the United States are comprised within the great unity of Christianity, and Christian morality is everywhere the same. In the United States the sovereign authority is religious, and consequently hypocrisy must be common; but there is no country in the whole world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility, and of its conformity to human nature, than that its influence is most powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.
The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other; and with them this conviction does not spring from that barren traditionary faith which seems to vegetate in the soul rather than to live.
There are certain populations in Europe whose unbelief is only equaled by their ignorance and their debasement, while in America one of the freest and most enlightened nations in the world fulfills all the outward duties of religion with fervor.
Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country.”
Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, (New York: A. S. Barnes & Co., 1851), pp. 331, 332, 335, 336-7, 337, respectively.
zelda on August 30 at 6:29 p.m.
I’m all for it.
MikeA on August 30 at 7:23 p.m.
Who pays attention to advertising of any kind? It is all aimed at a sixth-grade mentality, and I left that behind a long time ago!
johnclarke on August 30 at 7:29 p.m.
I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another.
— Thomas Jefferson, to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78
To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
— Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers, 1:545
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
— Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813 (see Positive Atheism’s Historical section)
The natural course of the human mind is certainly from credulity to skepticism.
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Caspar Wistar (June 21, 1807), quoted from Encarta Book of Quotations (1999)
Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences…. If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you.
— Thomas Jefferson, to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787. (capitalization of the word god is retained per original)
johnclarke on August 30 at 7:29 p.m.
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding, and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticism of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from it’s indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power and pre-eminence.
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, July 5, 1814, Lester Cappon, ed, The Adams-Jefferson Letters (1959) p. 433
johnclarke on August 30 at 7:30 p.m.
On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Archibald Carey, 1816
Liberty_Bell on August 30 at 7:46 p.m.
“I am a real Christian; that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”
-Thomas Jefferson to Charles Thompson, Monticello,
Jan. 9 1816
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=8623#axzz1WZMD52A1
Bruce (aka thatoneguy) on August 30 at 7:52 p.m.
madscientist @ 4:53pm – the STA is not a religious organization. Pay X number of dollars and you can probably put any message you want on them, as long as it’s not illegal.
shadedmuse @ 6:40pm – de Tocqueville’s point, as I read it, is that, precisely because there is no official state religion, people are free to be as religious as they like. Those who express religious sentiments are doing it because they want to, not because they are being required to. (Family pressure, perceived public opinion, etc. are not laws. You can leave your church and not go to jail for it.)
polistra @ 4:20pm – “Both countries have remained firmly Christian.” Yes. Their people, not their governments.
I’m a big fan of not legislating beliefs.
johnclarke on August 30 at 8:01 p.m.
“Look at Russia and America. Both have been barraged with constant anti-Christian propaganda for a long time. In Russia it was official and harsh, but it stopped 20 years ago. In America it’s less official but still going.
Both countries have remained firmly Christian.”
and…there has been a steady decrease in THIS country of people that identify with a religion since 1990 (around 10%) and I’d love to see some trustworthy statistics from Russia. Your statement holds about as much water as the “US was founded as a Christian nation” (wrong) or the “US is a Christian nation” (wrong). All wishful thinking, and slowly changing as people tire of organized religion.
To the article Bravo ! First time I’ve been tempted to ride a bus.
johnclarke on August 30 at 8:05 p.m.
and Liberty Bell, so what. For every quote you produce from a founding father that “supports” your beliefs, I will produce 10 that show this country was founded on the freedom of beliefs, including the right to NOT believe in myths sold by the oppressive yoke of organized religion/fairy tales.
avocet on August 30 at 8:15 p.m.
From what I’ve seen so far, the only entity making (or trying to make) an issue of this is the media. Slow news day?
As an agnostic, I think it’s great.
Liberty_Bell on August 30 at 8:16 p.m.
Like the oppressive yoke, Jesus discussed with the Jews johnclark?
Just another fairy tale, the 1st Amendment too???
Ed Byrnes on August 30 at 8:17 p.m.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
The first amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
So STA could not restrict advertising on the basis of religious content and atheists, agnostics and christians can all say what they wish about their respective beliefs.
Ed
Squid on August 30 at 8:30 p.m.
I am all for freedom of speech, but this is not good. You get shot for this kind of thing down south.
As for you non believers…. Do you not see the miracle that you are? Think a bunch of atoms just joined up to make cells, to make organs, bones, teeth, hair, and a full body with eyes that see, ears that hear, and brain that thinks, a mouth that tastes, eats and speaks? And you can reproduce to make images of yourself? Just happenstance? A little too complicated for me to believe that all of your atoms joined up to make something as complicated as you.
And…. Don’t things happen in your life that are too freaky to think it was just coincidental? You’re broke and something comes up. You’re out of work and something drops out of the sky? You want something and you magically come up with a way to get it that defies all odds? That kind of thing that makes you think someone is taking care of you? Never? Maybe you’re not paying attention.
Can I get an AMEN???? TESTIFY!!!!! HALLELUJAH!!!!
How bout a YEE HAW, then??? Close enough for me.
Whatever… I’m stepping down from the pulpit now.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on August 30 at 8:35 p.m.
Squid says - As for you non believers…. Do you not see the miracle that you are? Think a bunch of atoms just joined up to make cells, to make organs, bones, teeth, hair, and a full body with eyes that see, ears that hear, and brain that thinks, a mouth that tastes, eats and speaks? And you can reproduce to make images of yourself? Just happenstance? A little too complicated for me to believe that all of your atoms joined up to make something as complicated as you.
Yes, its called science, try looking into someday, its not as scary and complicated as the tea baggers make it out to be.
PlanB on August 30 at 8:47 p.m.
I like it. The Constitution is supposed to protect freedom of thought, but sometimes I get tired of the crushing barrage of religious messages and it’s nice to see some balance.
tobiasg on August 30 at 8:50 p.m.
I am dumbfounded by those of faith who do not allow for anyone to have any belief besides theirs. It is very simple-minded and very arrogant…but should this country ever push religion even further into politics, or should it be deemed illegal to believe in anything other than Christianity, I will be one of the first to take up arms and be among the supporters of those attempting to overthow the government.
misjustice on August 30 at 8:52 p.m.
Squid on August 30 at 8:30 p.m.
I am all for freedom of speech, but this is not good.
Huh?
; )
misjustice on August 30 at 8:55 p.m.
@ tobiasg, Amen, brother! And I’ll be right there with ya!
Squid on August 30 at 8:57 p.m.
Maybe I’m different than the general Christian community…. I whole heartedly believe in a combo platter of science and creation. I think God assembled man scientifically and improved man over time, which explains evolution, as well as Christianity.
I have taken classes on molecular biology, and organic chemistry, and there is no doubt there are atoms and cells. There is also no doubt that things evolve. I am a believer in both.
I also have no doubt that there is more. Think about your ability to think about your ability…. How is it possible, that your cells were formed into a thinking unit that can outsmart a computer, and is faster than a computer?
You can go backwards, and tear an organism down to it’s basics, but you can’t explain how it all came together as one. You can grow tissue in a lab, but you can’t grow a person or animal, and you never will be able to.
I don’t have a problem with your beliefs. I am just amazed that so many don’t have enough appreciation of their world. I am amazed that so many think they can explain the unexplainable.
Squid on August 30 at 8:59 p.m.
MisJ, it just means I don’t understand why, or what possible benefit it would have for anyone. That’s all. I’m just confused, as usual.
paulti on August 30 at 9:03 p.m.
I always enjoy getting the Christianity and forefathers speech whenever the topic of separation church and state. I wonder what kind of Christianity they followed as the number of their illegitimate children grew (Jefferson and Franklin) just to name a couple. Plus running out of their homeland and slaughtering native Americans….what part of christianity was that?
misjustice on August 30 at 9:08 p.m.
Oh, well, confusion can be good; in a confusing sort of way!
; )
I thought that you were against the exercise of the freedom of speech, specifically by those questioning the existence of sky fairies, and that those which do deny/doubt/or question their existence should be silenced…
Thanks for the sort of clarification…
; )
liberal_in_right_wing_land on August 30 at 9:19 p.m.
paulti - don’t forget them all having and being in favor of slavery (and many sleeping with their slaves).
Religion has done more damage throughout the history of this world than good it has done.
SpokyDaBear on August 30 at 9:22 p.m.
Why doesn’t the Spokane catholic church do ads on the bus like ” Come back to the true church we stop molesting little boys!”
Yeah that’s the ticket!
Squid on August 30 at 9:57 p.m.
Ooohh!!! Bringing politics into the equation? Gettin interstin.
There is so much we disagree on, but i still think you’re adorable!
Maybe I’ll make you my next project, after the POS sprinkler that’s making my lawn into Satan’s spawn. I can fix you, but I’m thinkin a hammer won’t work. I’m thinkin whips and chains are the correct tools for the job.
Don’t get mad… I work in construction. In my industry, sexual harassment isn’t punished. It’s graded. I just can’t help myself. Maybe the Gubmint needs to start some kind of social program to reform us. You know… TV commercials, mailers, and warning labels on hammers.
Ed Byrnes on August 30 at 10:00 p.m.
For what it’s worth I am a Sunday school teacher and an ardent supporter of the establishment clause of the first amendment.
My spiritual beliefs are just that, beliefs not supported by evidence, and they are mine, not to be interfered with or forced upon anyone else. I can also distinguish what I base on faith and what I base on empiricism, and I assert that government is better based on empiricism.
This Sunday school teacher abhors evangelism and proselytizing which is why you never read that sort of stuff bearing my signature. Nonetheless I support free speech so the atheists and christians, and anyone else, can purchase whatever advertising they wish.
Ed Byrnes
Squid on August 30 at 10:03 p.m.
Just as long as they know they’re wrong.
nslopeofw on August 30 at 10:04 p.m.
Hey lib in rt wing land,
I like the TEA party, and i dislike ANY for of organized religion. Christians are as ignorant as Muslims in that they actually think they have the answers, but they have no proof. (you have to have faith….which means “I cant prove it, but believe me anyway”)
I’ll quote Socrates: “False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil. … As for me, all I know is that I know nothing”
And: “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing”
Faith=belief without proof.
Liberty_Bell on August 30 at 10:25 p.m.
Yea libin a rightwingland organized religon, shown best in the professors 3rd trial transcripts, where being executed for speech has always been an organized religious model.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/ftrials.htm
Squid on August 30 at 10:41 p.m.
“”I’ll quote Socrates: “False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil. … As for me, all I know is that I know nothing”
And: “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing””
Funny…. That’s pretty much the reasoning FOR Christianity too, isn’t it? Maybe I’ll poach those quotes for my side.
And….. Christians don’t claim to have any of the answers. That’s one of the many things we pray for. No little voices in my head with those answers yet, but sometimes the answers reveal themselves in strange ways.
Ain’t heard of none o dem executions fer speech lately. When can we start those again? I’m seeing a need. Is it legal?
ClientNum9 on August 30 at 10:49 p.m.
I’m starting a new group as well! It’s called “Duh” and we meet every other Sunday. This week’s topics; The absence of a brain in Palins head, taxes on the super rich make sense, the earth is indeed round, Tides can actually be explained and other s**t that should be common sense. Hope to see you all there ;)
Squid on August 30 at 10:49 p.m.
DANG!!! I’m cracking myself up tonight!
Maybe Christians do have the answers!
Where did you guys go? I’m having fun! Gimme more!
Squid on August 30 at 10:52 p.m.
That’s a tough one! Hard to riled up about it. I got nothin……
Liberty_Bell on August 30 at 11:07 p.m.
Well squid, everyone knows Socrates was stoned for speech too, thats what happens when one might have a brain.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/socrates/socrates.HTM
Squid on August 30 at 11:11 p.m.
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.
mmspowaus on August 31 at 3:28 a.m.
Nice touch STA; right at the end of Ramadan, 2011…
I wonder if the United Atheist League Alliance is going to do a Museum, Buddhist, Hindu and Jewish version of their ad?
Maybe:
Are you good without Buddha? Millions are…
Are you good without Shiva? Millions are…
How about
Are you good without L. Ron Hubbard? Billions are…
The United Atheist League Alliance only seem to attempt to antagonize Christians (Recall the 2008 State Capital atheist manger thingy at Christmas in Olympia?) They leave all the other religions alone…not very even handed are they…
Here are some suggestions if anyone would like to buy a counter ad on an STA bus….
The U.S.S.R. was officially Atheist…how did that work out????
In God We Trust
“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him”, Voltaire
“When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything”, GK Chesterton.
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good. Psalm 14:1-3
johnclarke on August 31 at 7:33 a.m.
Hey, any time you believers want to provide evidence of god, then I’ll consider your pov. Until then, keep it to yourself.
BTW the fact that we exist does not count as evidence.
Squid on August 31 at 8:30 a.m.
Well John, my sprinkler didn’t work last night, and it does this morning…… Explain that!
Liberty_Bell on August 31 at 9:29 a.m.
And the Billion dollar Bus Ad, JohnClark?
The key of knowledge is always confusing when the message dosent fit reality.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013725651_israelad21m.html
nslopeofw on August 31 at 9:30 a.m.
Squid-
Do you believe Christ was the son of god? Or, do you just pray he was?
Squid on August 31 at 10:57 a.m.
I know Christ is the son of God. Not sure why you ask.
You seem like an intelligent person to me. I think you have seen the truth, especially when you lived in Alaska. My thinking is that you know the truth, but are trying to rebel against it. Most non believers believe in their hearts, in my opinion. Jealousy, anger, or self hatred are strong forces that cause people to deny their maker.
Tell me…. Of all the things you know about all…. Do you think there is anything that science can fully explain? Take away anything from life. Just one single thing, like covalent bonding. Life wouldn’t be possible without it. How many different forces, atoms, molecules, or DNA strands magically came together to make you? Think an amoeba evolved that well, that fast? Millions of years is a short amount of time. What was going on in our world, millions of years before the first amoeba?
Think about the endless universe. Where is the end of it? We can see trillions of miles, but no borders. How many neutrons make up those trillions of miles of our universe?
Is anything explainable? Will it ever be explainable? Nope. It’s beyond you and me.
I come up with this stuff, and I don’t even smoke dope…..
johnclarke on August 31 at 12:10 p.m.
Squid, I know two things. I don’t know why your sprinkler didn’t work, and your post is off topic. There is no more proof of god, than there is of apollo.
I just love how atheists can stir up all this defensive anxiety with the godsters. My favorite is “I don’t know where blah blah blah comes from = proof of god”. Hilarious. No, it’s proof you don’t know about something.
johnclarke on August 31 at 12:12 p.m.
Liberty Bell - off topic and as always totally confusing. If people want to spend their money protesting one people’s treatment of another, then ok fine. That’s not against the law.
Susac on August 31 at 12:30 p.m.
Reading over the post so far, I can’t help but notice that the topic immediately turns to this whole idea of wrapping your position in the authority of the founding fathers. I think that this whole discussion is hinging on a psychological phenomena: Namely that people of faith seem to feel attacked by the simple assertion that you can be moral without belief in a deity.
Notice that this is ALL the add asserts. It doesn’t assert that you can’t be moral with belief in a deity, nor does it assert that there is no such thing as God. It doesn’t assert that the US would be better off without Christians in it, nor does it assert that the founding fathers held an atheistic worldview (the founding fathers were a group of rich white men who held a diverse range of philosophical positions, but a narrow range of economic interests).
The add is all about the fact that atheist want to build community. The response to the add is all about the defense of theistic belief and the true nature of “America.” Why is that do you suppose?
My own observation is that a lot of people obtain their sense of moral identity from their relationship with authority. Because this add asserts that not everyone does so, the topic turns to secular political authority as a standard for morality. But here’s the thing . There are both moral and immoral behaviors that we can see the founding fathers did. There are both moral and immoral behaviors that we can see that our government does does. There are both moral and immoral behaviors that characters in the bible do (including Jesus and Yahweh).
And this is the real philosophical underpinning of the sign – obedience to authority is NOT a standard by which one can legitimately measure morality. Certainly not secular political authority, and perhaps especially not divine authority.
Simply put, deciding moral dilemmas is hard. My own belief is that we are all responsible for taking on the burden of negotiating our moral dilemmas. No authority can relieve us of this burden. Obedience to authority is a poor excuse for moral reasoning. In fact, one thing that religion is famous for is leading good people to do bad things. Obviously other ideologies can do this too (communism comes to mind).
For this reason, I believe that intellectual honesty is a pre-requisite of moral reasoning. If I am honest about the limits of my knowledge, then I’m less likely to pursue violent actions. Doubt is humbling that way.
From this perspective, the words of the bible or our political leaders or our founding fathers simply don’t matter that much. They are useful as sources of ideas, and it’s good to be educated, but at the end of the day, it is my decisions and my actions that count. And I simply have to own the fact that I’m going to make mistakes.
Thankfully, no authority can rescue me from this fact.
johnclarke on August 31 at 12:48 p.m.
What a thoughtful post, thank you Susac. The only thing I would add to your reasoning is there does not appear to be any connection between any religion and morality, at least not in any history I’ve read. If fact, there seems to be be pretty solid history that religion serves as the excuse for a lack of morality or respect for anyone that is different.
Squid on August 31 at 12:58 p.m.
Apollo was a boat manufacturing company in Spokane that went out of business in the ‘80’s. I have proof.
Any thinking person can look through their miraculously constructed mass of molecules that form an eyeball and see that there is an overwhelming amount of proof of God. Are you really going to bet your eternity, against the house that there isn’t? You better hope you’re right. Seems to be at the very least, some uncertainty for most people. For me, I’d rather look like a fool to some now, than saying “SHOOT DANG!!!”, later.
To get back on topic…. Can anyone tell me what benefit there is to promoting atheism? I can understand that someone would be one for certain reasons, such as being angry, or jealous, but how could it possibly help anyone to advertise those beliefs on a city bus? If it’s about free speech, wouldn’t it be better to just have a sign that says “Freedom of Speech?”
Do atheist’s have Sunday meetins’? Seems to me that atheists are starving for proof, but nothing will ever be good enough, until they can touch it, and dissect it.
Susac, I thought religion was famous for leading bad people to do good things. Glass half full, half empty. You can find the bad in anything that humans are involved in. And…. I never felt attacked in any way, ever, by those with different beliefs. As a believer, I think I may get brownie points for helping those who wonder to see things with a different vision. It’s kinda fun for me too.
Squid on August 31 at 1:03 p.m.
John, do you respect those who are different from you? Maybe in real life, but it doesn’t seem so, from your posts. You are like a pitbull on a poodle, when it comes to anyone who doesn’t see it your way. Though you may see things in a different way, as you learn from other people or evidence, you would never admit any change in your thinking.
detroitdude on August 31 at 1:18 p.m.
LOL you people talk about this as if you are forced to sit there and read the side of the friggen bus for 10 hours a day.
johnclarke on August 31 at 1:21 p.m.
“Any thinking person can look through their miraculously constructed mass of molecules that form an eyeball and see that there is an overwhelming amount of proof of God. Are you really going to bet your eternity, against the house that there isn’t? You better hope you’re right. ”
Squid, once again I find someone making my argument for me. This is the classic fearful religious attack that has attempted to keep man in the dark. YOU do not respect people that are not exactly like you.
Here is my argument. If the best argument is “well I can’t prove that god exists but I better hedge my bet” is some pretty poor logic my amigo. You don’t scare me, you actually get my pity. You are a slave to a myth. I respect your right to believe whatever the heck you want. Respect my right please, and golly gee I guess I’ll just take my chances ok?
Squid on August 31 at 1:41 p.m.
John, I respect everyone, including you. Never met anyone I didn’t respect. I learn from everybody, including you. I never disrespected you, did I? Are you being disrespectful? Maybe your belief that I am fearful is your own fear. I am not afraid of much, which has been a problem for me, more than anything. Never did I try to scare anyone. If my answers frighten you, then you should stop asking scary questions. If you take my thoughts as a classic fearful attack, then it may be the weakest attack I have ever made. Once again, maybe it’s your fear, not mine. Read your post, and tell me who attacked who. “Classic fearful religious attack, attempt to keep man in the dark, YOU do not respect, poor logic, you actually get my pity.” To be honest, my intentions are different than you think, so those statements don’t really bother me. On this subject, there is nothing you could say to get me boiling, but you can keep trying.
johnclarke on August 31 at 1:49 p.m.
All religions promote fear, duh. How do you think they stay in power?
Again, pony up some evidence and I’ll pay attention. Otherwise, have a nice day.
Squid on August 31 at 2:54 p.m.
More respect? Give it to me, give it to me, give it to me, give it to me. Just a little bit….
A nice day to you too. :)
Susac on August 31 at 8:58 p.m.
Johnclark said: “The only thing I would add to your reasoning is there does not appear to be any connection between any religion and morality.”
I have to disagree with you here John. While I agree that religions in general have no special claim on morality, all of them seem to include some strategy for handling moral decisions. Granted many of them have bad strategies, but they do appear to be attempts at moral reasoning. The problem that I have with religion is that they form moral systems that do not limit themselves to any kind of formal grounding in reality. This is why they can be so dangerous: They create worldviews that are based on pure fantasy, and then assert moral standards on the basis of these bizarre worldviews. This practice cannot help but distort one’s moral compass.
The big problem that I have with most religions is the idea that belief without evidence is a virtue. I just can’t swallow this – It’s morally dangerous to go running around believing things for which there is no evidence.
Belief without evidence is a vice.
Squid (great handle btw), Clearly religion does help some people live better lives. I have met numerous addicts who managed to get clean using religion as a support (for example). There are cultural norms in many (but not all) religions that can be helpful for people. Community, acceptance, forgiveness, & redemption are all useful resources that all of us need from time to time.
But with most religions, these resources come at a cost. This cost is the cost of believing in the incredible. For most religions, there is at least a tacit understanding that you need to believe in the mythology of the religion as a prerequisite for membership in the religion. If you don’t believe, you might be welcome, but you won’t be considered a “full member.” This practice is not unique to religions, but what IS unique to religions is that the ideology is firmly grounded in a belief in the supernatural.
This is EXACTLY why the atheist community is starting to emerge. We atheists need community, acceptance, forgiveness, & redemption too. We need a community of people who share our values and worldview. But we don’t want to pay the price of belief in magic in order to belong.
Squid, I’m going to tell you a secret, and it’s something that I want you to think about for a while. It has deep implications and it might help you understand atheism better:
Almost no one chooses to be an atheist. I know this is probably counter-intuitive for you. After all, you choose to believe in God. But I did not choose to be an atheist. What I did was I chose to use evidence as the standard by which I decide truth from fiction. Becoming an atheist was a CONSEQUENCE of this choice. Think about it.
I also chose to at least try to be honest with myself about what I do and do not know. I try not to mistake belief for knowledge.
Faith is a choice. Lack of faith is not. Every baby is born an atheist. You had to be taught to believe in Christ. I was taught to believe the same thing. I have worked hard over the last 30 years to deprogram my mind from the beliefs we were taught. But my goal has not been non-belief. My goal has been evidence-based reasoning. Atheism was just a side-effect. And whatever awe and glory you feel in belief in Jesus, I promise you, I have access to no less wonder for my evidence-based worldview. In fact my world is freaking amazing!
Most people will believe almost anything in order to fit in to their in-group. We atheists are the few who are not willing to pay that price. And we need community too.
Squid on August 31 at 10:11 p.m.
OK, cool, groovy. Sounds like you have given the subject a lot of thought, and your morals seem to be square, but I think you may have missed some things in your study. No point in giving you my scpeil, so I’ll save my ink.
I have no affiliation to any church, so the “in group” is not a factor for me.
Kinda strange that our stories are similar. I was raised a Christian and went to church every Sunday. I tried to believe it wasn’t true, and got all the information I could to disprove it. My best buddy showed me things that changed my mind, such as predictions, explanations, and reasons. He was extremely intuitive about the world and what God wants. Soon, I began to see things his way and thankfully I have a much greater understanding of everything and that we live in a well oiled machine with an awesome engineer controlling it. Just the way I see things.
I have a better understanding of your group now, however you didn’t really answer the question I am confused about. What purpose will your atheist community serve? (expand on community, acceptance, forgiveness, & redemption) What are your goals? How will it benefit you? Specifics. Curious minds….
Susac on August 31 at 11:58 p.m.
Well it’s a community. Like any community it serves different needs for different people. For me, it’s just nice to have people around I can relate to, who share my values etc.
Also, there are issues specific to the atheist community. For example, a LOT of non-believers are estranged from their families because they can’t buy into the family religion. It’s good to have friends who have been through that particular type of issue.
Finally, there is a culture of stigma around non-belief. Atheists are the least trusted and most hated minority in the country. We even scored less popular than Muslims in a study released only a year and a half after 9/11/01. Many of us feel ostracized and marginalized socially and politically. Part of the agenda of our movement is to raise public awareness of the atheist community, and to promote the idea that we are decent, law-abiding people who are just like your friends and neighbors, because we ARE your friends and neighbors.
That’s why it’s important to encourage atheists to seek community, and to do it publicly. It lets’ people know that we are here, and we are “good without God.” Some people might find this idea to be offensive, but that’s not our problem. Our problem is that we are isolated, marginalized and demonized. Speaking out helps us to do something about that.
davidthewhat on September 02 at 1:18 a.m.
Oh boy, lets all jump on the bus on the broad road to destruction. We must, at all costs, speak freely to the reality of our non-belief so we will know that there are others like us looking to speak freely of our knowledge of our own destruction. We, as the utterly reasoned beings that we are, know full well that to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” is unreasonable because a little birdy told us so. A bus sign cannot be wrong and God and His word can be. Were are so reasoned that we all know that. It is only reasonable to fully know how reasoned we really are. So lets all jump on the bus on the broad road of destruction and leave the narrow road for the wise.