Spokane7
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February 27, 2011 in City
For leaders, fire district idea gaining economic appeal
New entity, operating outside city funding parameters, would have own taxing authority
Spokane leaders have a new idea for solving their budget woes: Give up the Spokane Fire Department.
Mayor Mary Verner has formed a committee to study the creation of a fire district to replace the fire department, which has served the city since 1884. The district would mirror the city’s borders and have its own taxing authority and governing board.
“Given that we have this economic condition that we’re in, we can wring our hands, cut services, scale back and that may be what we actually do,” Verner said. “But we also have a responsibility to look at other options that are out there, including the formation of districts.”
Several other city officials say the idea is worth a look.
“We have to look at anything that can help us keep our costs under control,” said Councilwoman Nancy McLaughlin. “The devil’s in the details as to whether it could be set up to provide a savings to the taxpayer.”
Spokane Valley already has a fire district, which operates separately from the city of Spokane Valley. Chief Mike Thompson of the Spokane Valley Fire Department will advise Verner’s committee.
Thompson said it can be challenging to run a fire department without the support that a city offers, such as human resources and financial expertise. But independence also has positives, he said.
“The biggest benefit would be that you’re in control of your own destiny,” Thompson said. “You’re not in any competition with any of the other departments for their dollars.”
Verner said she isn’t sold on the idea for Spokane, but that it should at least be explored. She said the committee will examine what would happen to the taxes the city currently collects for fire services if a new fire district levies its own taxes.
The city spends about $31 million a year on its fire department.
Last year, the state Legislature changed the law to allow cities to form fire districts. The Senate unanimously approved the bill, sponsored by Senate Majority Leader Lisa Brown, D-Spokane, and then-Sen. Chris Marr, D-Spokane. The House did so 93-5. Creating a district would require a petition signed by 10 percent of registered voters to place the plan on the ballot.
Spokane Fire Chief Bobby Williams said turning the city into a fire district could make it easier to pursue consolidation of fire districts. State law has been changed in the past decade to allow the creation of a “regional fire authority.”
“I have always been one who believes that moving toward a unified or some type of consolidated fire service in Spokane makes sense,” Williams said.
But he and others say merging fire districts would be politically difficult.
George Orr, a former state legislator who served as a Spokane Valley firefighter for 33 years, said he’s heard ideas about consolidating fire service in Spokane County for four decades. Rural residents would be rightfully suspicious of being part of a district that included Spokane, he said.
“They’re not going to take kindly to someone screwing with their fire service,” Orr said. “The city wants to shift the burden of the cost and the local folks won’t take well to that.”
Orr, a Spokane resident, added that creating a fire district with the same boundaries as city limits would be little more than “a paper shuffle.”
City Council President Joe Shogan said it’s worth examining a regional fire district to see if it could provide more efficient service.
“I don’t see much sense in just doing a one-entity fire district,” Shogan said.
Thompson, of the Spokane Valley Fire Department, doubts that there’s much support for the creation of one large county district. But there is room for better cooperation in the region, he said.
“The best step would be to take it in small steps,” Thompson said. “Then there’s a bigger possibility of more steps down the road.”
Verner said she hopes the committee comes up with a recommendation about the formation for a fire district by the summer.
“If we went in that direction it would be a huge shift for our community,” Verner said. “We won’t undertake it lightly without a lot of analysis.”
MAC faces angry crowd 
Erik_T on February 27 at 1:11 a.m.
It has worked well for Kootenai County (Kootenai County Fire and Rescue), with one quarter of the population we have here (city and close-in outlying areas). I am a property specialist for a major insurance company here locally. I look at fire protection classifications daily for all areas of Spokane and Kootenai Counties. Orr mentioned that those in the rural districts would oppose. When speaking with the members of the Deer Park FPD (dist 4), and hearing about the budget shortfalls, a unified protection district would make it much more feasible to employ and serve a greater area when combining Mead FPD with North Spokane. As for the people living in those area’s, they would also save money on their homeowners/property insurance costs… The cost would be roughly the same for those taxpayers… I do not see how this is a bad idea.
DickAdams on February 27 at 8:09 a.m.
I see Verner wants to explore the idea. I`m suspicions of anything the mayor does. Verner has lied too many times regarding “no new taxes”, when the fact is as she was speaking she was increasing the city utility taxes as provided for under the fixed city utility tax rate of 25% the effective rate for city services and 6 3/8% for the other city utility taxed services, except for COMCAST which is over 12%. And we can`t forget her financial guru Gavin Cooley, who is always misleading the public with his 1% cap BS which only applies to the total amount of tax income for the city. Individually, their is no cap and depends on many other factors. It was not uncommon to increase Real Estate taxes 10 to 20% for one property and of coarse Cooley played on words.
johnclarke on February 27 at 10:13 a.m.
“Spokane leaders have a new idea for solving their budget woes: Give up the Spokane Fire Department.”
Good idea, now get out of the EMS business and reduce the number of public fire employees by at least 50% and go to a combination of paid and volunteer firefighters. Works everywhere else.
RedCedar on February 27 at 10:48 a.m.
In my experience, public services such as fire protection, water, and sewer service work better as independent districts rather than as part of the city or county government. The main reasons are that they are accountable for their own independent budgets and they are not automatically entangled in municipal or county politics.
When any of those services are included in the functions of a larger government, it’s very easy and tempting to play accounting tricks with them. City hall went over its budget for travel and office furniture? Raise the water rates (for vague “environmental” improvements), employ a clever book-keeper, and everybody will grumble out their water bill but they’ll never figure out where the money went. Mayor facing a tough re-election fight? Put out the word to to the firemen that if his opponent wins, that SOB will fire the fire chief and cut overtime.
Best to keep all these separate functions separate, both politically and financially. I don’t know Mary Verner myself. I don’t know if she’s honest or not or has some ulterior motive here. I do know from observation that shifting from a fire department to a fire district would be a good step towards open and accountable operation of both entities, and might even save some money.
Smokie on February 27 at 11:31 a.m.
The city learned its lesson in the 19th Century about volunteers in a dense urban area and that is why they, like every other city, have paid firefighters who are on-duty 24-7, just like cops, just like soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. It’s a no-brainer.
I know the incentives for a district. However, one has to ask oneself what is the point of being a city? I would say public safety, infrastructure and the protection of revenue-generating infrastructure and property would be at the top of the list and, as such, so would a fire department.
To have a fire department not front and center of a city and its obligations, to me, seems odd and at odds with the raison d’etre of a municipality, even where are there are some short term funding opportunities available. Maybe, I am a dinosaur.
Mr. Brunt might have missed a fine point in his article regarding the City of Spokane Valley and the “Spokane Valley Fire Department.” Before there was a city in the valley, there was the “Spokane Valley Fire Department.” Actually, that has never been its official name - it is “Spokane Fire District One.” I believe it serves areas outside the city of Spokane Valley, as well. So, all in all, not a correct comparison for what is proposed for the city of Spokane.
Unbelievable that Mayor Verner has the publisher of the SBJ chairing this panel. Was Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck or Governor Walker unavailable?
o_pleez on February 27 at 11:40 a.m.
Johnclarke– ” Good idea, now get out of the EMS business and reduce the number of public fire employees by at least 50% and go to a combination of paid and volunteer firefighters. Works everywhere else. ”
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OK John, if it “Works everywhere else”, let’s see your extensive list of cities/Fire Districts with >200,000 population that are served by a combination of paid and volunteer firefighters.
Not a far-flung rural county of 200,000, that has patchwork Fire Protection, utilizing a combination of paid and volunteer staff. Single agencies that protect an urban area, old construction, high population density, and high call volume.
I’ll wait.
Dazzeetrader11 on February 27 at 12:24 p.m.
1. It’s called “cost shifting”. Verner doesn’t want to be blamed for excalating costs from the unions.
2. Nice idea putting the unions bosses in charge of the unions. How stupid does she think Spokane is???
3.If Chief WIlliams is all for it, there’s plenty in it for him and his minions. More money, more power and a lot more control.
4. When Verner, Lisa Brown, Chris Marr (who will be running from the 3rd district this time as a little carpetbagger…which is what he disdainfully called Mike Baumgartner) and the unions are all for something like this, grab your wallets. Unions get more for doing less. It’ll be more expensive by far but will less service to the people.
Typical Verner, Brown, Marr stunt. Oh and one more thing, the plan is well under way. Hope Spokane gets a vote on this. You must know these liberal politicians who support the unions are doing it for union support..and it’ll be a shakedown of the public. …who gets to pay for all the mischief. Vote these guys out!.or suffer the consequences.
reservedparking on February 27 at 12:44 p.m.
Smoky:
You’re right. Spokane County Fire Protection District #1 was originally established in 1946, and has governed itself since its inception. They officially changed their name to Spokane Valley Fire Department a few years ago - they serve the entire valley, Havana to the state line, both inside & outside the borders of the City of Spokane Valley, with a couple other districts filling in the edges.
The city annexed in to the Fire District in 2004, I believe.
reservedparking on February 27 at 1:12 p.m.
Apologies for the name typo, SmokIE.
johnclarke on February 27 at 1:30 p.m.
o_pleeze, certainly. Here is one example, and the only reason I picked Deleware County, is I am familiar with the fire protection situation in that area. Also note the difference in Median income.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_County,_Pennsylvania#Census-Designated_Places
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spokane,_wa
I’m not against professional firefighters, I’m just against what we can’t afford. We don’t NEED a combination of private and public EMS, unless you can tell me how it makes sense to send an entire fire truck (or a specialized EMS truck) and a private ambulance to EMS calls. Also, I don’t think Spokane can afford 12 or whatever fire captains at $150k a year. We have about 70 structure fires a year in Spokane, and I’m betting that includes ANY structure.
Hope you didn’t have to wait too long.
ecolucci on February 27 at 2:21 p.m.
John Clarke
A brief look at your cited example (Delaware County, PA) of a combination (paid and volunteer) department in comparison to the City of Spokane reveals that it is not even remotely close to a comparable. The largest city Chester, PA has a population of 38000, and has an all paid fire department. There is no large urban area with one fire protection agency but precisely what o_pleez mentioned of “patchwork fire protection”. If one looks at the Delaware County Firemen’s Association homepage there is an article from The Philadelphia Inquirer illustrating why a volunteer department does not work very well for the county.
http://www.dcfa.org/news/index/layoutfile/home
Some of the many issues discussed is shortage of hours for minimum training, volunteer retention and predictably money.
There are no quick and easy fixes for the budget issues that currently plague our nation but perhaps with an effort to analyze our options we can move forward with a fair solution.
JC if you wish to criticize others solutions at least do research first.
DickAdams on February 27 at 2:37 p.m.
With the backing of the Cowleses, I`m more convinced then ever we as taxpayers will get gouged. CAUTION folks, you are entering uncharted waters. Remember the alligators.
johnclarke on February 27 at 2:38 p.m.
I did. I’m not criticizing you personally.
“There are no quick and easy fixes for the budget issues that currently plague our nation but perhaps with an effort to analyze our options we can move forward with a fair solution”
Agreed, one place to look is duplication of services.
You can parse those stats all you want to, but the neighborhood I grew up in (the township is about 50k population) is more densely populated than Spokane, has a volunteer fire department and is still standing and not on fire.
Point is, there is proof a combination of fire protection works just fine.
de3 on February 27 at 2:41 p.m.
Did some online searching regarding mixed career/volunteer departments:
Eastside Fire-Rescue
http://www.eastsidefire-rescue.org/
(Covering Issaquah, Sammamish, May Valley, North Bend, etc, right here in WA)
City of Santa Clara, CA Fire Volunteer/Reserve
http://santaclaraca.gov/index.aspx?page=340
(Santa Clara is in the heart of Silicon Valley)
Santa Clara County Fire, CA (encompassing the non-incorporated areas of Silicon Valley, plus several cities including Campbell, Cupertino, Los Altos, Los Altos Hills, Los Gatos, Monte Sereno, Morgan Hill and Saratoga)
http://www.sccfd.org/volunteer.html
That’s just a sample.
The IAFF (firefighters union) has, over the years, often been strongly opposed to the use of volunteers since volunteers are seen as eliminating a job or union membership.
reservedparking on February 27 at 3:07 p.m.
“…unless you can tell me how it makes sense to send an entire fire truck (or a specialized EMS truck) and a private ambulance to EMS calls.”
Because it often takes more than two people (the usual contingent on an ambulance) to do it right.
sowinso on February 27 at 3:15 p.m.
There’s another point that wasn’t addressed. When cities with their own fire service annex areas, the incumbent fire district is pushed aside. The boundaries are reconfigured. It has the potential of creating service areas which are inappropriate for the configuration of the fire stations and could discourage important investments in public safety due to the threat of annexation.
However, if there is a district instead, the boundaries of the city would no longer matter. When Spokane Valley and Liberty Lake change their boundaries, Spokane Valley Fire District is unaffected. In fact, the City of Spokane Valley is in multiple fire districts.
Even if consolidation weren’t a goal, conversion to a separate district does have an advantage in that is separates the issue of annexation from the issue of effective provision of fire protection services.
johnclarke on February 27 at 3:24 p.m.
“The IAFF (firefighters union) has, over the years, often been strongly opposed to the use of volunteers since volunteers are seen as eliminating a job or union membership.”
Bingo.
“Because it often takes more than two people (the usual contingent on an ambulance) to do it right.”
Please provide evidence.
reservedparking on February 27 at 3:49 p.m.
Lots of those calls could probably be run by a 2-person crew. Others cannot. Example: Cardiac arrest. Takes 2 people to do effective CPR. So who does all the other necessary stuff…
…oh, and drive to the hospital while all that goes on.
Takes more than 2 people to safely remove an injured person from an automobile, without running the risk of further injury to patient OR rescuer. What if there’s more than 1 patient? Unnecessary delays are not good.
Here’s a different approach: Fire Department transport. That ends the duplication too.
o_pleez on February 27 at 4:02 p.m.
John Clarke — I’m still waiting. Let’s see an apples to apples comparison.
>200,000 population in a urban, high density, high call volume area. Your example isn’t it. remember, you said it works “everywhere”. I’ll wait some more.
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de3 - - Eastside Fire covers nearly 200 sq miles, with a population of 113,000. About half the population of Spokane, spread out over >3x the area. EFR also does about 1/2 the incidents as the City of Spokane. Not even close to being comparable.
Santa Clara County Fire does about 1/4 the incidents the City of Spokane does, again, not exactly comparable.
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NW Cities similar to Spokane in population, density, and call volume….
Tacoma
Boise
Slightly smaller…
Bellevue
Everett
Eugene, Or
Salem, Or
Apples to Apples.
I have NOTHING against the Vol. fire service, it’s just not practical in a busy, urban setting.
johnclarke on February 27 at 4:06 p.m.
70 Structure fires per year. Remove the EMS calls, and then let’s have the same discussion.
BTW, I can come up with examples all day too. Hey, you are not a firefighter by chance?
Spokane_Citizen on February 27 at 4:09 p.m.
Providing firefighting services via volunteers is a patently stupid idea for major metropolitan areas. Their training budgets (and volunteer vetting procedures) are generally grossly inadequate (constant training of more than marginally qualified personnnel is essential in any high risk endeavor), and their response times (a very critical factor in saving lives and structures) are dismal. Such areas experience high insurance and volunteer indemnification costs to mitigate the increased exposure associated with their amatuerish attempts to handle complex emergency response scenarios. A farmhouse or barn fire is an entirely different animal that an urban petroleum tank farm fire.
Perhaps we also need a volunteer police department, voluntary compliance with building codes, structural engineering principles, pollution control, as well as volunteers providing emergency room medical response as well. No wait!…that was New York, and every major American city up into the 1880’s…. (No doubt America’s ‘golden age’ in your cheapskate dimwit eyes).
Break it up into districts or associate its functions with a municipality…but either way….professional knowledge and response doesn’t come cheap.
Smokie on February 27 at 4:23 p.m.
johnclarke - the reason fire engines go on medical calls is because firefighters can then go directly to a fire from that call without having to go back to switch trucks and personnel. How often does that happen? Enough that it has happened to me at least 10 times that I can think of.
70 structure fires a year? It only took one structure fire that was not contained quickly enough to burn the whole city to the ground in the 1800s. That’s like saying “Gosh, we as a country, only get invaded 70 times a year, why should we spring for a paid military?” Ridiculous.
The Spokane Fire Department’s job is to preserve the infrastructure that allows a city to exist - a city that hosts businesses as revenue generators and to protect citizens’ dwellings so they can fuel the revenue generators. Pretty simple. Pretty much the way business has been done since the times of the Romans.
Of course, we should discard all historic knowledge now and trust in AM radio loons and other wackadoodles. What could go wrong? I am sure there are plenty of rubes out there looking for a new way to be fleeced.
In between keeping the city from completely disappearing (something you probably won’t read much about) a dozen times a year, the fire department uses the time in between fires to provide EMS. It’s a good fit for the fire department and our citizens’ needs and a great use of doubling what you get from your tax dollars.
johnclarke on February 27 at 4:30 p.m.
Thanks for keeping the city from not disappearing, but we’ll have to disagree on the EMS topic. On top of the tax dollars that keep the city visable, we pay extra for EMS. Then we pay for transport. Either get into EMS + transport or get out. I know that transport is not the fun sexy cool part of EMS, but us citizens are paying twice.
o_pleez on February 27 at 5:34 p.m.
johnclarke… You can’t come up with examples all day, because you can’t come up with ONE.
Lots of people are pointing out your flawed logic and false assumptions. Is everyone a Firefighter, or are you just that wrong?
johnclarke on February 27 at 5:47 p.m.
Actually, I don’t see one opposing view above that is based on facts. I found my facts on the report on the Spokane Fire Department’s web site. I’m not making up the structure fire number, and if you can produce evidence that EMS is improved by having duplicate service, please educate me. When you read that report, it actually states the contractor is able to respond more quickly in many cases. Yes, I am aware that the SFD controls how and when the contractor is called out, and called off.
Listen, I would love to debate this fun topic all day - but I know some of your co-workers, the ones working 24 hours on, then 72 off. They all have full time “other” jobs, in fact one makes more on the side than his $82k salary (plus overtime). Compare that to the median family income in Spokane.
Yes, I guess I’m that wrong.
o_pleez on February 27 at 5:55 p.m.
johnclarke on February 27 at 10:13 a.m.
Good idea, now get out of the EMS business and reduce the number of public fire employees by at least 50% and go to a combination of paid and volunteer firefighters. Works everywhere else.
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You have yet to show a city the size of Spokane that operates this way, but apparently it works “everywhere else”?
There are none.
So yes, you are wrong.
johnclarke on February 27 at 7:53 p.m.
And you are a firefighter. :)
My points were based on population density. Help me to understand your question.
My point is: EMS service is duplicated in Spokane and costing millions that we can’t afford.
We have too many firefighters and equipment costs in Spokane.
I believe a balance could be reached.
Dpk9030 on February 27 at 9:03 p.m.
The point you seem to be missing Mr. Clarke, is that the fire dept. could get out of the ems business all together, but it wouldn’t change the needed staffing level at all. That is because sufficient FD staffing is based on what COULD (and eventually will) happen, and not what IS happening this second.
So, by your logic, the FD offloads it’s EMS workload, cuts it’s staffing in half (down to about 25 people a shift to cover the entire city) and supplement with volunteers. The problem then becomes, what happens when you need 50 guys right now for the 3 alarm apartment fire, which, by the way, has happened 3 times in the last 6 months.
So the guys go out on ems calls while waiting for the big one. Sounds like efficient use of time to me.
The other point is that a fully staffed professional fire department saves businesses money in decreased insurance costs. Having volunteers in a city this size with this density would not only cost more money in the long run, it would also probably cost lives.
outsidethebox on February 27 at 11:30 p.m.
o_pleez nailed it, John Clarke, you haven’t given any accurate examples of comparable departments, with similar traits of sqmi, population, department size and run volume. I wanted to address some items you brought up Mr. Clarke, first their work schedule, which you left out that they have to work an extra 8 shifts per year on top of the their normal schedule called debit days. Now the duplication and the reason for it on ems calls, both a fire apparatus and an ambulance are dispatched, but their are fewer ambulance spaced farther apart. So typically since the fire engines are strategically located to be able to respond to emergencies faster and usually within <5 min or so, 90% of the time, to provide life saving care, and ambulances show up to transport that person to the hospital for a fee. Could fire department transport, sure, but that’s a political issue, and it wouldn’t change duplication or staffing levels, just who is driving the ambulances. Why more than 2 firefighters you asked, well in a serious medical emergency such as cardiac arrest, it takes 3 people to perform quality CPR, switching every 2 min on chest compressions. 1 to write down everything that is happening for report purposes. 2 medics to be able to achieve IV access and inti-bate, administer the life saving medications and defibrillation necessary to save a life. So by my count that’s 6 that need to arrive within minutes of the call. However, i realize that’s not every call, but there are so many other challenging medical situations such as acute stroke, heart attacks, seizures, traumatic injuries that require more than a couple firefighters. Response times are so important, and the time it takes volunteers to go to the station and then respond is too long, too late to make a difference. Time is of the essence when you are talking heart muscle that is dying due to lack of oxygen in a heart attack, or traumatic injuries requiring surgery to sustain life. Spokane Fire Department is already understaffed and doing more with less. Call volume has more than doubled while they have closed fire stations and reduced staffing to where not all fire engines have 4 firefighters. A combination volunteer fire department is not practical for a department this large. Response times would be slower, fewer personnel as stated by Mr. Clarke, all this would contribute to poorer out comes on saving life and property. If there was only one major fire or incident per year, then it is money well spent. If they can save some lives and property and make a difference than that is worth it. They would not be able to find quality candidates to fill these volunteer position willing to commit to the hours required for training, and maintaining certifications that are required. Volunteers are grossly under-trained, lack the experience and knowledge required to provide the dedicated and professional service that Spokane Fire Department provides on all emergencies. On top of all that, what about all the specialized operations that they provide like Hazardous materials, marine water rescue, technical rope rescue, investigations, building inspections, code enforcement, and paramedic services. Paramedic school alone is a 2 year difficult process, who is going to devote all the thousands of hours required, and do it for free? There is still logistics personnel, and vehicle maintenance. who will keep those fire engines responding on calls. Hey how about volunteer mechanics, they can go through a quick course on maintenance and diesel mechanics, and try to learn all about the specialized equipment and tools, and show up when they feel like it. How long before a tragic event would happen? I wouldn’t want to live or work in a world where people’s hobbies were protecting me or my family. I would always want someone responding to an emergency for my family who is the best at what they do, a professional firefighter!
Dazzeetrader11 on February 28 at 12:01 a.m.
I talked to the MD who founded the 911 system in Spokane. When he and his friend founded the EMS system, it was NEVER tied to the Fire Dept. When I asked him how Verner could save money on the program, he told me the best way was to uncouple the Fire Dept from EMS.
My mom broker her hip a few years ago and a EMS came to pick her up and take her to Deaconess. A large ladder fire truck came first though and had to call them. How EMS and fire dept were somehow put together is unclear. WHen the MD looked to see if there was any difference in outcomes, first, the Fire Dept told him the records were private so he couldn’t see them. Further persisetence resulted in a look at the EMS records. What he did find was no difference in outcomes even thought the case loads were identical from the 80’ s to present.
When the campaign to fund EMS came up last fall, he laughed. He thought the EMS, given the data he found had become a tool of Fire. All this is true. One big way to keep fire fighter doing their job much more cheaply would be to separate the two. As it sits now, my mom was charged twice for the same job. Having firemen show up at a non fire emergency is ridiculous…and doubly expensive.
Smokie on February 28 at 6:30 a.m.
Daisy, Your mom:
Closest fire engine/ladder comes. 3-5 minutes. If the apparatus is not Advanced Life Support (basically an ER on wheels with staff capable of doing just about whatever doctor and nurses could do) an ALS truck is also dispatched. So, the first unit which is there almost instantly starts the process of patient care, ALS follows, if needed, by next crew if first crew is not already ALS (ALS - IV therapy, medication, intubation, etc.). Ambulance arrives to take pt to hospital. ALS fire personnel may ride in with pt if needed. Usually in this order.
What you are saying Daisy makes no sense. To get the same staffing results by not having fire go on EMS calls means that you would have to quadruple the amount of ambulances and their personnel. That makes it four times expensive. Again - fire crews go on EMS calls in between major fires - giving taxpayers more bang for their buck. Daisy, why do you hate us taxpayers?
jholderby on February 28 at 10:09 a.m.
Johnclarke: Your idea of a combination department is a great idea for money saving. However, I think you’re failing to take a realistic approach to the situation. What “Volunteer” do you know has the time to run ON AVERAGE 75 calls a day? That’s what the City of Spokane Fire Department runs. Unless you don’t have a job, it seems as though that might not work very well, now would it? Also, in a densely populated area like this, with that amount of calls, people don’t have 20 minutes for a volunteer to answer his page, respond to a fire station, then finally respond to an emergency call. I’d like you to take a little time today to research CARDIAC ARREST studies…you might notice that TIME is somewhat of a big deal when it comes to survivability. That small window of opportunity would be gone before most volunteers would even be able to get into their personal vehicles, and take a drive to the station. I like that you have these great ideas, but before you share them, you should look at the REALISM of it all.
Now onto the 70 structure fires the fire department responds to. You might want to look a little deeper into that as well. You’re right, fires are not as prevalent here as they used to be. But you’re not taking into account that there are wildland fires, hazmat calls, water rescue, motor vehicle accidents, dumpster fires, extrication, technical/high angle rescue, residential and commercial fire alarms (which still need to be checked out, false or not), among many other things. The City of Spokane fire department runs about 5,000 calls that involve one or more of those situations that I just mentioned. So these “overpaid” Captains have a little more on their plate than just “70 structure fires a year.”
I understand that the economic situation we are in is not an easy one, but how about we stop attacking the public servants that respond to you in a minutes notice, whether you hate them or not. How about we look at other situations that are putting us in financial ruin like the 2 BILLION dollar unemployment fund this state has, or the unbelievable amount of people on welfare? Is it easier to attack people that put their butts on the line for someone else then it is to tell people to get off of theirs and get to work?
johnclarke on February 28 at 3:29 p.m.
I came back to say I was wrong about volunteer fire departments and cities. Where I grew up, a suburb of a major eastern city, all of the fire departments are volunteer. I was mistaken; reason being my township is more densely packed than Spokane by far, yet it has always had a completely volunteer department and volunteer EMS drivers. Do I think volunteers are the answer for downtown Spokane? No.
jholderby - who hates anyone? I myself went through EMT training while in the service. I really don’t need a speech on the heroics of responders, since I have ridden the hoist out of a very creaky UH-1 to collect broken folks, and then got to ride back up with the litter. I was trained in, and have performed technical rescues. Rest assured amigo, my butt has been on the line for very little pay.
I am not questioning the bravery or dedication of our firefighters. I’m questioning the duplicate EMS service. I will repeat myself. Read the Fire Department’s own report on this topic. There is no evidence that having duplicate EMS increases survivability. There is no evidence that firefighters in Spokane can respond faster than the contractor. Either perform the transport service and lose the contractor, or stop sending entire crews and equipment. Eliminate the EMS calls and you will save us taxpayers a ton of money, and additional levys. Why do you think there is such a backlash against public employees right now? Don’t you understand that we are all hurting financially?
johnclarke on February 28 at 3:34 p.m.
“To get the same staffing results by not having fire go on EMS calls means that you would have to quadruple the amount of ambulances and their personnel. That makes it four times expensive”
Smokie, you’ll have to buy me a PBR and explain that math sometime. :)
Guys, no one hates public servants - in fact I wish I was one. Why do you hate taxpayers by making us pay money that we need to send our kids to college and put food on the table, then pay again if we ever need an ambulance?
jholderby on February 28 at 4:21 p.m.
I pay taxes just like you do. I have children that I have to send to feed and send to college too. You realize if the fire department ran an ambulance service, you would still be charged for a transport? A fire department can’t take on the extra cost that comes with extra staffing and apparatus, and still only charge you what you’re being charged now. So you think its better for taxpayers to pay more taxes for fire, EMS, AND ambulance transports, than paying what they pay now for just fire and ems? Again, logic needs to be used here…
Open_Spokane on February 28 at 6:19 p.m.
It’s nice to read that some of our overpaid public servants have their panty hose in a bunch over a discussion of right sizing our fire department.
Talk to former Councilman Allen and he’ll tell you that there are fewer and fewer fires every year. I seem to remember that the numbers don’t justify the cost. A lot has changed with technology and construction materials and fire isn’t a big problem.
You know there are areas in this country that have zero fire protection and they actually have fewer fires per person because they know they have to be more careful. So, its only logical to continue cutting the fire budget. I’m sick and tired of our public employees behaving like they know whats good for us taxpayers.
Money is in short supply and instead of volunteers, why not change the laws so public workers will get paid less?
jholderby on February 28 at 7:42 p.m.
Maybe we should go back to the days where the only people that got protection from the fire service paid for it and displayed a plaque notifying the fire department that they had paid up. That way the people that want to save a few bucks can decide if they want the protection or not. Seems fair to me…
johnclarke on March 01 at 3:27 p.m.
No jholderby, I don’t think that. I think that the fire department needs to stop the shell game of EMS, stop wearing out the taxpayer’s fire engines and take note of what is happening in your community. In fact, I also think that any member of the Fire Department or their families should NOT be allowed to vote for fire levies. There is firefighter marketing, union billboards and no opposing message, because the taxpayers don’t have a union to fund an opposing view. Where do those union dollars come from amigo? The taxpayers that pay your salary and your union dues.
You seem to think that we the tax payers (your bosses) are a non-stop never ending funding supply! The comment above is exactly correct - this is about right sizing a public service and what can be afforded by the taxpayer.
These arguments always seem to take the same direction. First, “statisitics” are produced telling us what a “great deal” firefighter EMS is, and how they puling “double duty” and we are all safer. Clearly, without a doubt and in your own report - there is no evidence that we are safer. Those EMS positions were CREATED by taxpayer levy dollars, and pay for more than just EMS positions. If you take those EMS calls out of the statistics, I think we all know what would happen. You would not be wearing out your fire engines, that’s for sure. Then the argument changes to emotions, people will start dying, Spokane will burn to the ground, etc etc.
I am a defender of public service, having performed my service - but the backlash that is spreading across this country is not my fault. I only worry that the anti-union anti public servant situation in Wisconsin will spread. This is the result of union greed and the chickens are coming home to roost. Let’s hope they don’t roost in those brand new brick firehouses.
jholderby on March 01 at 7:06 p.m.
For someone who “supports” public servants, you sure have a lot of bad things to say about them. You are right, union workers are getting a bad rap because their paychecks are a “waste” of taxpayer dollars. What doesn’t seem to be brought up though, is unemployment. How come its ok to piss and moan about cops and firefighters, who see, do, and put their hands in situations that the Average Joe surely doesn’t want to, but its ok to look the other way when it comes to the tax suck that is unemployment? More millionaires were made from the Great Depression, because they went out and found ways to make money. Now, we just have people that are making more money off unemployment and sitting on their asses (probably complaining on news comment boards about unions).
I’m sorry that I support my public employees, and don’t mind paying taxes on the money that I earn to support INFRASTRUCTURE. What I don’t agree with is giving away money to people that don’t want to work. I’d rather pay a small amount of money every year and have it go to a guy that has to hold a 9 year olds brain in his head because some wack job shot him in his sleep, than to some lazy stoner who sits around smoking pot and watching Oprah (I’ve seen it, trust me!)
And I’m assuming, because of your incessant involvement on this issue, that you own a home. So if you were to get rid of your fire department, your going to lose your protection rating (in Spokane/Spokane Valley its a 2/3). It would drop to 10, and you would be spending the money that you used to pay in taxes to have a professional fire department, and would be writing that check to your insurance company for the lack of adequate fire/ems services. Sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul to me, but I’m sure giving an insurance company money instead of public officials would really make a statement, huh?
johnclarke on March 01 at 7:20 p.m.
I own 7 in the city limits. so let’s just say I pay my share.
Don’t try and change the subject. My point was simple. Firefighter EMS has questionable value and the associated costs are more than this community can afford - and yes the 12 fire captains at 150k a year are seriously overpaid.
If you would like to provide facts and data that proves otherwise, bring it on amigo. Otherwise, have a nice 24 on and 72 off.
jholderby on March 01 at 9:10 p.m.
Once you provide “facts and data” instead of just opinions, then I will do the same. 150k for a fire CAPTAIN seems like an over inflated number…maybe you should get your facts straight before you start sharing false info. You’re right, fire captains do get paid well…but from your ignorance, you probably don’t know what a captain does. Its pretty easy to sit on the sidelines and tell someone that they don’t deserve what they make, when you have NO CLUE what he does for that money. That’s like me telling you that you get paid too much since you own 7 houses. I have no idea what you do though, so that would be unfair. I invite you to have the same level of respect for these guys. The level of cancer, divorce, and suicide in the fire/ems field is one of the highest out of any career field (yes, right up there, and even exceding the military depending on which case). Also, the average lifespan of a firefighter after retirement is 3 years. These people put a lot of their personal well being on the line for ANYBODY and EVERYBODY (including many people who hate them, yet still call them when they need help), and the only thanks they get is from people like you who say they don’t earn their money.
So anyway, amigo, feel free to share your first fact or data that is actually correct…I’ll be waiting.
jholderby on March 01 at 10:12 p.m.
Let me just point out the apartment fire in the Valley today. The apartment is literally right behind a fire station, and the first engine arrived about ONE AND A HALF minutes after the first 911 call came in. By the time the engine arrived, fire had already blown out a window, auto exposed the window above it, and started in on that apartment. It also got into the attic, so I think I would be safe to assume the other residents in that apartment complex are pretty happy that there wasn’t a volunteer response…a couple more minutes, and that whole complex would’ve been a complete loss. Fire doubles in size every minute (that is a proven scientific fact…not opinion). But lucky for you, amigo, you live in a house (actually 7, sorry), so you don’t have to worry about people underneath you starting your house on fire. But then again, there’s still arsonists and radiant heat from the adjacent house fire that will undoubtedly start your house on fire unless there is water application. Another fact is the materials used in today’s construction burn hotter and faster than that of houses even 20 years ago (glue-lam, osb, plywood, etc. are all wood and glue—glue is a petroleum product i.e. gasoline). So I’m sure it was before your time, but you might remember hearing about the great fire of Chicago, or even the fire in Spokane that burned the city down. If you think that wouldn’t happen “these days”, that would make you ignorant.
johnclarke on March 02 at 6:53 a.m.
Thanks for the name calling, and attempts to change the subject. My information comes from the report posted on the firefighter web site, and public information. The pay figures are accurate, and if you don’t believe me - look it up. Response times of firefighter EMS vs. contractor. Look it up. Number of non EMS calls that are actual structure fires. Look it up.
As posted above, this is about right sizing a public service. All of your arguments are off topic and unsupported by facts. Call me ignorant all you like, but it does not change the facts.
jholderby on March 03 at 10:43 a.m.
What you fail to realize (thus the ignorant comment, which wasn’t name calling, its just a FACT that you don’t know what you’re talking about) is that the term WORKING STRUCTURE FIRE in this area is the same thing as a 2 alarm (or higher) fire in most other major cities. If a fire response shows up to a structure, and there is a room and contents fire/kitchen fire/attic fire, etc, the initial response can handle that with the amount of resources that are showing up, and don’t need to UPGRADE it to a working structure fire (aka, second alarm). So if you want to go back and look at the ACTUAL facts, we can look at the cities FULL RESPONSE statistics, and we will be around 350. The news doesn’t report these tookie fires, so the public doesn’t realize the fire department is actually responding on fires basically every day. Then, like I’ve said before, there are many other things the fire department does outside of EMS that also doesn’t make the news, so again the public doesn’t know they’re out doing it.
Here is the link to the City’s ABARIS EMS Study. If you want facts, they’re all in there. http://www.spokanefire.org/documents/ABARIS_Spokane_Report_01_23_09.pdf
AMR has a 15 minute response to 90% of ALS calls vs. the city’s 8:30 90% of the time. Unfortunately, AMR has areas where that response times falls below 46%. The city doesn’t fall below 91% in any area.
In an article by Jeff J. Clawson, M.D., Board of Certification Chair; Robert L. Martin, Executive Director; Geoffrey A. Cady, Call Processing Board Acting Chair; and Robert Sinclair, Senior Research and Technical Specialist; National Academy of Emergency Medical Dispatch Salt Lake City titled Making the Most of EMS states that “Almost 90% of America’s fire departments have a role in providing prehospital medical care and transportation.” That must mean that 90% of the country must be doing it wrong…how could they be so stupid, right? The reason almost all fire departments run EMS is not to justify anything, its because its the most effective and efficient use of resources. I know people want to be able to save a few bucks, but going to a volunteer fire department is a large city is insane! I pay twice as much a year to run my cell phone than I pay for fire protection (because I only live in 1 very modest house). Do we have our priorities so screwed up that we can’t pony up a few hundred bucks a YEAR to have that protection from what could happen, and more importantly, DOES happen? Or is it jealousy that firefighters get 2 days off between working one FULL day. That’s one full day away from kids and wives, doing things the general population doesn’t want to do. And if you think firefighters go to work and sit around, then you’ve obviously never worked for a full time fire deparment. You obviously have an issue with public servants, and the fact that they take away a couple latte’s a day from you to be there when you need them (in a MUCH more timely manner than the ambulance). Arguing with you is like arguing whether God or Allah is better, so I’m done. I’ve offered you up facts, which you have failed to do…saying the EMS system is broken is an opinion, not a fact.
Now, I’ll leave the salary “facts” up to you to find. (Just a hint, a Captain isn’t the same thing as a Chief). So like you told me to do, and I did…LOOK IT UP!