January 21, 2011 in News, City

Deputy won’t be charged in shooting death of pastor

Thomas Clouse The Spokesman-Review

Tags:Alan CreachDeputy Brian HirzelJack DriscollProsecutor Steve TuckerScott CreachSheriff Ozzie KnezovichThe Plant Farm

Hirzel
(Full-size photo)

171 comments on this story so far. Add yours!

maria on January 21 at 12:05 p.m.
At least we know he won’t have to rely solely on the family home porno business for income. A man needs to make a decent living.
johnclarke on January 21 at 12:16 p.m.
I predict this is going to be an ugly thread.
Thoreau on January 21 at 12:17 p.m.
Stereotyping Police-Hating Comments begin in 3…..2……1……
Nugget on January 21 at 12:26 p.m.
0………..Maria had to make a snide remark at the very beginning of the thread.
Personally I’m glad there will be no charges. When the police are afraid to do their jobs because of fear of being prosecuted for doing that job, then the criminals have won!
Let’s hope the public will wake up to the fact that if you challenge the law when pointing a gun at anyone, it will usually come back to bite you.
Kivaari on January 21 at 12:29 p.m.
Thank you Mr. Tucker. It has taken a long time to get to a point most people felt made the most sense. After nearly 5 month’s of review, Tucker came to a conclusion, that most LEO’s knew made absolute sense. Given the initial description of events it just seemed to be within the law and SOP. Sad outcome, but no crime. Tucker is to be congratulated for re-opening the case.
Chief Kirkpatrick should be reminded not to rush an investigation. She forced an incomplete report to be forwarded before her people were done.
This report could have been one page long and we would have known enough to know what the outcome would be. Now that it is nearly 1000 pages, it just supports the officers actions.
Thanks for the entertainment.
horse_feathers on January 21 at 12:34 p.m.
When the police are not afraid of being prosecuted for anything, ever, then it is the public is who have lost.
Unfortunatly we have seen that senario take place all to often here in spokanistan.
johnclarke on January 21 at 12:36 p.m.
I’m going to get flamed, but if you call the cops, then the cops show up, follow the cop’s instructions. Also, use a holster and secure that weapon when directed - or for pete’s sake - when approaching an officer state clearly that you have a weapon. If you out to prove a point that you “don’t have to drop your weapon” then try to draw it - (I’m not saying this is how it happened, I was not there) ok you proved your point, and now you are dead.
This was a tragedy but I would like to believe a peace officer would not take an innocent life unless he felt he was being drawn on. What - was the officer supposed to allow himself to get shot? I imagine that after the ambush in Seattle, cops are looking at a weapon in someone’s hands differently. Again, this is a terrible tragedy and the family has my sympathy.
Kivaari on January 21 at 12:50 p.m.
Horse feathers, Where do you get the facts to support your claim that cops don’t face prosecution for crimes?
Kivaari on January 21 at 12:51 p.m.
John Clarke, It is nice to read a posting with calm and rational expressions of thought.
Lulubelle on January 21 at 12:52 p.m.
No big surprise here. Tucker made the same call in the Otto Zhem case…..maybe the Feds will take over this one too.
At least he waited long enough to get reelected….lucky us
Kivaari on January 21 at 12:56 p.m.
Lulabelle, What charge could Tucker PROVE in the Zehm case?
bszottlinger on January 21 at 1:13 p.m.
I am happy to see that Mr. Tucker did make the right decision in this case by NOT making a determination that the shooting was JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE. There is a big difference and Mr. Tucker in the past has declared OIS cases “Justifiable Homicide” where the evidence to make such a call was very limited. In my mind his decision not to declare this shooting as Justifiable Homicide is a direct result of the public outcry and the ability of the Creach family to bring to light a number of issues regarding the investigation. Fortunately, other members of the community, aside from the Creach family and Mr. Wright, who are very supportive of law enforcement have recognized this and are in the background trying to do something about it.
Based on my own interpretation of the reports and the evidence I, at this point, likely would have made the same decision though I would have early on saw to it that the investigation was of the highest quality, something Mr. Tucker did not do. The big issue for me is that there were so many of what I consider mistakes made during the investigation that it makes one wonder IF there MIGHT have been enough evidence to bring the case to trial if the mistakes were not made. Mr. Tucker does have to bear some responsibility in that regard because his office does not take an active role in the investigation, and it SHOULD.
I hope all of the citizens that have concerns about this case understand that the fat lady has not yet sung and if new evidence develops the criminal case can be reopened. I think it is also important to note that the civil litigation in this matter will be against Spokane County and Mr. Tucker’s office will be defending the law suit. He could have easily, yet inappropriately, declared the shooting Justifiable Homicide which would have put the County in a slightly better defense position.
It is now the Sheriff’s turn to investigate this administratively and he has a chance to turn up some things that may not have been discovered in the criminal investigation by the Spokane Police Department. He is however somewhat handicapped because of the way the criminal investigation was handled.
The ONLY good thing that may come from the Creach case is that there WILL be some quiet changes made to the OIS investigative process.
Lulubelle on January 21 at 1:18 p.m.
Kivaari - If Tucker couldn’t PROVE something with the well publicized video in hand exposing the lies told by police officers concerning the details of the incident, he needs to get a new job.
Fault also lies with the whole “cops investigating cops” system we have around here. Talk about your foxes guarding the hen house.
Apparently the Feds feel they have a case……we’ll soon see
misjustice on January 21 at 1:19 p.m.
No surprise.
Chest bumps and high fives all around!
Scoutster on January 21 at 1:21 p.m.
Well, here’s a surprise, eh folks!? Who would have imagined?
Maybe it will be kinda like OJ, where the civil and federal actions get to justice. And, maybe not.
This guy Tucker was re-elected by the people. And in a democracy, we get just the government we deserve.
eatlotacheese on January 21 at 1:23 p.m.
A 74 year old man is so threatening. I ran into one this morning and got scarred they were going to kill me I had to grab the nearest weapon and start flailing madly to try and scare the creature off.
All seriousness aside I sincerely hope the county, investigators, the officer, and all the other incompetent people in this situation are sued and fired. What kind of training makes you use a deadly weapon as your first means of defense. It will be interesting when public records are turned over, which the county should do since the investigation was over the day this officer left for Vegas. To see what really happened. To all police I have respect for you when you use restraint.
Orange on January 21 at 1:26 p.m.
An expected outcome. Sad though. Good investigation by all Dept’s involved.
Kivaari on January 21 at 1:33 p.m.
Lulabelle, I asked a serious question. What charges could Tucker PROVE in court? Are you saying Tucker could prove Thompson committed assault? When Thompson could articulate that he thought he needed to take down the robbery suspect? Murder? Thompson didn’t kill Zehm. If anyone killed Zehm, it was the EMS people Thompson called to care for the prisoner. Please show me who and why people should be charged, and if Tucker could PROVE the case beyond a reasonable doubt.
We do not live in a democracy (anarchy), we live in a republic.
Now to this case. BSZ can now get mired in the minutia of the civil case.
Me, I am happy to report that I told you so. Let the courts handle any civil matters that may arise.
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 1:36 p.m.
This is a tragedy the family expected. I sincerely hope Detective Ron Wright and the family use all resources possible to try and make sure this does not happen again. When I say that, I am also talking about the way in which “Oversight” works. (although Spokane does not have “TRUE” oversight. Burns wears kidgloves that are tied behind his back.
Sad situation.
1) They left the body out for 7 hours while the family watched.
2) They skirted Hirzel away quickly to the substation
3) Forensics indicate the body was moved
4) Forensics indicate the blood pool was differentiated (pt)
5) Forensics indicate NO BLOW TO KNEE
so many indications that Hirzel was either a liar or covering up his tragic “mistake” (if it was that)
Is it possible Hirzel is telling the truth? Yes
Do I believe that?
NO (but we may never know…witness is 6 feet under)
My biggest concern is making police more accountable and honest. Dodd case is really troublesome.
lewis8457 on January 21 at 1:40 p.m.
The coplets are in attendance to make their point they have finally heard the truth anmd now we are supposed to believe their lies, sorry but we all know tucker will not prosecute a cop for anything so nothing was learned here just they same old double standard.
I don’t know where you guys got the info that Creach was pointing a gun at Hirzel if you really believe what Hirzel says why don’t you believe what he said Creach never pointed the gun at Hirzel why don’t you believe the gun were in his waistband and not pointed at Hirzel? If you are so insistent that Hirzel’s word is golden why don’t you believe those parts of his story?
Because it sounds fishy and normal person would think why shoot a guy at the 4-foot mark if he isn’t even armed? So you have to make it sound like Creach was pointing the gun at him, just so you can pound that lie into the rest of us.
But what you don’t seem to see is we all know it was murder we all know Tucker wasn’t going to press charges because this wasn’t the first time. Yes some of us were hoping with the reputation Creach of being a business man and preacher we were hoping for some justice but as usual we see there is no chance a officer will be brought up for shooting a citizen.
Have you guys ever gambled? What do you think the odds are that 5 cops can shoot 5 citizens in less then 5 months and it is always the citizen’s fault? I bet the odds are like 5 in 1 million chances anywhere else but in Spokane it is 5 in 10 chances.
Well Ozzies meeting about bomb danger will be a joke since Hirzel will be back out on the street harassing citizens. Yes we did hear a report that a few months before he murdered Scott Creach he threatened a motorist with injury if the motorist did not do what Hirzel wanted. So thank you Tucker for sending out another Looney tunes in a patrol car and gun.
So why did we get to pay for all these extra investigations if Tucker never changed his mind from 6 months ago? Are we really supposed to believe he looked at the report if there actually was one?
Are we really supposed to believe they have our best interests at heart when they lie to us continually and we learned last year from Thompson’s lawyer the cops don’t EVER have to tell the truth unless sworn to do so.
Now you cops can call me names and show your high intelligence as you try to get me to believe I have the same rights and if one of us shot someone we wouldn’t be in prison right now.
It takes a coward to shoot someone at the 4-foot mark and any cop that thinks it doesn’t is a coward to. A COWARD!!!!!!
A side note I heard Gay Olson is one of Hirzel’s best customers.
I wonder who gets murdered this weekend?
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 1:43 p.m.
Thompson did assault Zehm pal.
Thompson did kill Zehm….although Zehm died later
No Thompson rapid assault? (without “Cause”) bad info?
No Zehm death.
Good lord, how do you sleep at night when you have seen the video of Thompson running in there (Zip Trip)…so quickly that he slipped. He slipped around the corner….maybe the steroid use(alleged)caused poor balance. He was 56 then.
THOMPSON KILLED ZEHM…WATCH THE VIDEO
Thompson kiled Otto Zehm with help from others.
Will somebody put the link up so the BaconBitters can see (-:
Orange on January 21 at 1:45 p.m.
Lewis, to answer your very last question. Anyone who is armed and displays a threat to Police or Civilian. It’s a well understood rule. I wouldn’t call it murder.
SpokaneLiberal on January 21 at 1:51 p.m.
We need a change to the rules of engagement, or rather the deadly force protocols. At the least “sharp” objects should require the officer to first deploy a taser. if they cannot be stopped with a taser then maybe.
Plus there should be two standards for LEOs. The first should be a legal standard the same as anyone. Was it murder. There should be a second, higher standard. Was it reasonable and necessary - if not termination without pay or pension.
BitofBacon on January 21 at 1:52 p.m.
Ta tas-I’ve seen the video. I have my opinion of it and it surprisingly, I know, doesn’t match yours.
lewis8457 on January 21 at 1:52 p.m.
Kivaari you do not know what you are talking about Thompson entered the store with baton held high he ran down aisle with baton in air Otto never saw him until the last split second Thompson beat Otto over the head (against law) and shoulders until Otto fell down, on the floor Otto used a Pepsi bottle to shield his face as Thompson continued to beat him and demand he drop the bottle. This is court records look it up. Thompson told investigators that Otto lunged at him with bottle, and that story would have stuck but there was a video and it showed what I just described to you. Tucker could have pressed charges but he did not because he doesn’t prosecute cops.
So get the story straight on Otto or I will be more then happy to shove the court docs down your pork lying throat.
Court documents don’t lie.
lewis8457 on January 21 at 1:55 p.m.
Orange the gun was in the waistband as told by hirzel who you think tells the truth the WAISTBAND if creach had pulled the trigger he would have shot his butt off now how is that pointing a gun at a cop?
lewis8457 on January 21 at 1:57 p.m.
yes bit was there he was the one that put his knee in Otto’s back expelling Otto’s last breath. does that make you feel like a man beating a disabled person, big tough cop, I’m scared
lewis8457 on January 21 at 1:59 p.m.
Anyone who is armed and displays a threat to Police or Civilian.
orange what if it is the cop who is threat to the citizen does that count? No i didn’t think so
MrNatural on January 21 at 1:59 p.m.
To me this is just another regretful tragedy due to the hallowed and headstrong interpretations of the second amendment and the ubiquitous nature of firearms in our country. As long as our society embraces the right to bear arms and a gun culture we will be plagued by death and injury; accidental or otherwise by said arms.
This is just my personal opinion…I do not like nor own a firearm and as I’ve said before I accept my fellow citizens need to have firearms but I would rather it be a privilege than a right.
My sincere condolences to the Creach family and regret to Officer Hirzel
lewis8457 on January 21 at 2:03 p.m.
sadly Mr. Natural it isn’t only guns that can get you killed in spokane pepsi bottles, hammers, rocks, and knifes seem to have the same effect on the police as guns,blam blam blam
SeeRed on January 21 at 2:08 p.m.
“When governments fear the people there is liberty, when the people fear the government there is tyranny” - Thomas Jefferson
Nothing wrong with holding public officials accountable. I have a feeling the debate over this and the half dozen other officer shootings this past 5 months will rage on for a while, maybe that’s not a bad thing.
Kivaari on January 21 at 2:12 p.m.
Lewis, Court documents don’t lie? Funny stuff. People can lie in a presentation to a court, if they are alleging an act. Their case is built upon what they “think” happened, not what “did” happen. That is why so much injustice happens in civil trials. If your lawyer can convince the jury that the big bad cop did xyz when he really did abc, then justice can and does go wrong.Funny, court papers don’t lie, really funny stuff.
tomnsahl on January 21 at 2:19 p.m.
This was a predictable decision, not political nor supportive of ILLEGAL use of force.
Kivaari and Saveyourtatas - please save your editorializing and let others speak their peace w/o your corrections - none of us need you to correct comments and your views are just YOURS
There will be lawsuits and the civil standard will likely be met where the criminal standard was not.
Thank you to all who serve our communities and abroad so that all of U.S. can spout off, pontificate & have civil discourse
lewis8457 on January 21 at 2:20 p.m.
Kivaari tucker could have said the force used was unreasonable because the coroner found bruising on Otto’s head which is against the law.
lewis8457 on January 21 at 2:26 p.m.
yeh sure someone called for aid after 5 tasers shocks, countless beatings with Thompson’s over sized baton that was unbreakable like a normal baton, and then after 7 guys sat on Ottos legs laughing and flipping off the cameras is that when he called for aid?
Why did the Feds pull Thompson in if it is the EMS guys fault?
This is exciting i think i will go take a walk in the rain.
Ed Byrnes on January 21 at 2:31 p.m.
No surprises here. I hope Hirzel loses in civil court and pays the Creach family forever for this wrongful death that he caused.
Us citizens will vote in an independent citizen review board regardless of what the guild, our ineffective municipal leaders, or anyone else says.
I have worked with local, state and federal law enforcement in other jurisdictions and I am disgusted with local law enforcement in Spokane.
misjustice on January 21 at 2:41 p.m.
Ed, are you still working on your op-ed piece? I hope that I didn’t miss it.
zelda on January 21 at 2:46 p.m.
Well, I guess that’s that.
We’re not hearing much about the most recent officer(s)-involved homicide.
When the sheriff says that this wave of shootings is a cluster, that may well be true. But any statistician can tell you the problem with “clusters” is how wide you draw the circle.
If this continues, we’ve got something bigger than a statistical anomaly to deal with. I agree with you, Mr. Natural, on your feelings about guns — hand guns in particular.
I read a very disturbing and eye-opening article about how Glock handguns got to be so popular in the latest issue of Business Week — http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_38/b4147036107809.htm . Clearly, there’s no going back in this domestic arms race — gun control just isn’t going to happen — but it sure makes me realize how easy it is with modern semi-automatic weapons to shoot to kill.
Nugget on January 21 at 2:59 p.m.
eatlotacheese on January 21 at 1:23 p.m. A 74 year old man is so threatening. **********
Some people are just dumb. A 74, 84, 94 or 104 year old man IS threatening if they are carrying a gun. More so because they think they can do whatever they want & not listen to law enforcement.
Creach was told many times, on many different occasions & by many different officers, NOT to be carrying that gun & confronting people, but he didn’t listen. He paid the ultimate price because he thought he was better than most & didn’t have to.
Also, some of you watch way to many movies!!
Kivaari on January 21 at 3:00 p.m.
Poor Lewis, A bruise on the head, doesn’t mean that caused the death. Hogtying and inadequate medical care following some outrageous police work resulted in Zehms death. Zehm would have lived had the poorly trained EMS crew performed the job properly. Lewis, it is not nice to call names. Just how did the bruise kill Otto? Was there a bleed in the brain? What did the ME find? Does saying Otto was treated poorly an acceptable thing to say? Do I think Thompson and the EMS crew are civilly liable for causing his death? Why yes I do. I have always said this is a civil case ($2.9 m case filed). No criminal case exists.
Kivaari on January 21 at 3:03 p.m.
Nugget, You can’t teach them that even an old man can pull a trigger on a .45 auto. Just like a 3 year couldn’t do so, without getting scared.
eagleproducer on January 21 at 3:04 p.m.
Just make sure you get off the first shot. Then we’ll see a how a civilian claiming self-defense when a cop is killed works out. We all have a reason to fear the SPD and I will act out of self-defense. Get it?
Good.
Now, for what tata’s wanted, a link to the Otto Zip Trip video…
http://www.facebook.com/pages/In-One-Eye-and-Out-the-Other-Productions/162457740455974
eagleproducer on January 21 at 3:07 p.m.
kivari: The ME ruled Otto’s death a homicide. Not an accidental death. Not negligence. Not manslaughter. A homicide.
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 3:13 p.m.
Thanks Spoketucky (-:
Nugget on January 21 at 3:18 p.m.
The link above is NOT the Otto Zehm Zip Trip video! Just some guy & woman with a loud speaker.
lewis8457 on January 21 at 3:20 p.m.
again i ask Kivaari if it was the EMS guys fault why did the FEDS pull Thompson in?
And are you Deputy Dawg over at KXLY I went over there to insult you but you weren’t there. But there were plenty of other cops there the place smelled like spoiled pork.
Nugget on January 21 at 3:20 p.m.
What is there has been altered to fit the storytellers ideas.
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 3:31 p.m.
At the 5 minute mark is where you see Thompson bashing Otto
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 3:36 p.m.
If anyone has information about either Karl Thompson or Brian Hirzel (or Dan Torok), please go to the website….
www.SpokaneCOPWATCH.com
They are actively investigating 6 police officers. (Tucker 2)
An old friend of mine who is an advisor to Ozzie K.
Knezovich is a good guy who wants to improve.
Protocols and training.
misjustice on January 21 at 3:37 p.m.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aixDUtTfpTs
The link is the KXLY news account and features the store video showing Otto retreating while being beaten by KKKarl; also shows SPD storming the store after KKKarl has beaten and tased Otto.
eagleproducer on January 21 at 3:38 p.m.
tata’s is correct, you have to have the patience to sit through a whole five minute opening sequence. Prior to that, the 911 and radio calls are all synched to recreate the time line of events prior to the Zip Trip encounter.
idahocity on January 21 at 3:39 p.m.
police are civilians they are not active duty military although they’re armed and swaddled like them and sometimes behave like soldiers barking orders.
we’ll probably never know the truth.
if you want the department to change their policy you hit them in pocketbook. police departments have to be insured. enough lawsuits will up the price of insuring them to the eventual point something will have to change or we will not be able to afford the premiums as a city.
ada county sheriff department faced so many civil lawsuits for misconduct in the early 80’s they were forced to change policy or face millions of dollars in premiums.
eagleproducer on January 21 at 3:39 p.m.
Nugget: When the film is released will let the public decide who is telling the tale closer to the truth. I can’t wait.
Make sure you hassle me and my family now. Our lawyers will just love it.
eagleproducer on January 21 at 3:42 p.m.
idahocity: Yep, just ask Sheriff Joe about insurance premiums. He’s pricing himself out of style!
misjustice on January 21 at 3:43 p.m.
Additional info on Otto’s beating/death:
“…From the beginning of the case, police have described Zehm as a hostile, violent crime suspect who attacked officers and refused to obey orders.” (a lie that would not have been uncovered but for the store video… (my words here))
“The video, from inside the Zip Trip convenience store at 1712 N. Division, hardly conveys that image.”
“Zehm is seen entering the store and casually walking to a back aisle.”
“Moments later, Officer Karl Thompson comes running toward him after erroneously being told by a police dispatcher that Zehm had stolen money from a woman at a nearby cash machine.”
“At no time before being struck did Zehm “lunge” or “attack” the officer as police repeatedly claimed. Nor does it show him holding a plastic soda bottle, which authorities have argued was a threat to the officers’ safety. No bottle of soda is visible in Zehm’s hands at any point during the 35-minute video.”
“The video, which has no accompanying sound, failed to capture portions of the scuffle after Zehm was knocked to the ground by repeated blows from Thompson, who was one of 43 applicants for the job of Spokane police chief.”
“The footage shows Zehm lying on the floor looking up at Thompson who aimed his Taser and fired. Zehm then began to struggle intensely in a rolling battle on the floor that eventually included seven officers. Odenthal for the first time Thursday said Officer Steve Braun Jr. also applied two more Taser shocks during that struggle.”
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/sections/zehm/?ID=140077
Cheezwhiz on January 21 at 3:43 p.m.
Has anyone ever tried to put a .45 Auto in the waistband of their jammies? I haven’t but I’d imagine it wouldn’t stay there long. They are around 5 pounds and the waistband of jammies won’t hold one, in my opinion. Yet another inconsistency in Hirzel’s story.
eagleproducer on January 21 at 3:46 p.m.
Lewis: I agree with your assessment of the KXLY threads, but I would have used the phrase “tainted pork” instead.
Just keeping it real!
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 3:48 p.m.
“Angry Steroid Laden Pork Bellies”
bdr on January 21 at 3:52 p.m.
This case is so sad,I for one will remember pastor Wayne Scott Creach as serving his fellow men far better than any Spokane Cop could even think of doing for Spokane.
Creach’s mission had a higher objective to preempt sorrow,hate,greed,and temptation.
Lets hope the cops find a higher ground like this someday!
misjustice on January 21 at 3:56 p.m.
“At no time before being struck did Zehm “lunge” or “attack” the officer as police repeatedly claimed. Nor does it show him holding a plastic soda bottle, which authorities have argued was a threat to the officers’ safety. No bottle of soda is visible in Zehm’s hands at any point during the 35-minute video.”
But for the store video we would never have known about the lies told in the SPD v Otto homicide. Too bad Mr. Creach didn’t have a surveillance video on his property…I suspect that in his homicide, lies were told, also.
greyhound2 on January 21 at 4:00 p.m.
With the number of people being plugged by the police in the past year, it makes you wonder. Plug a pastor, flower child, business owner, no problem. Things must be getting pretty ugly out there. Better to have a baseball bat so they can’t get you on a weapons charge.
Kivaari on January 21 at 4:00 p.m.
Spoketucky, I’ve been away for a couple hours. Homicide doesn’t mean murder. Homicide can be justified, negligent, a degree of manslaughter or a degree of murder. Zehm died from hypoxia due to negligent handling after his arrest. It was a very poorly handled case of police abuse and EMS medical malpractice. It wasn’t murder.
lowtechmaster on January 21 at 4:02 p.m.
Put simply…Hirzel lied about hitting the Reverend with a baton. I take an aspirin a day, as the Reverend did. I can get a bruise by scratching myself or swatting a bug! But there was NO EVIDENCE on the Reverend’s body that he had been hit! Why, then, would anyone assume that the Deputy was telling the truth about all of the events? Another case “Tuckered” away! Not at all a surprise! I hope the family files a wrongful death civil suit! Apart from the lie about the baton, the time line is highly suspect, as is the comment that the Deputy saw the butt of the gun, to say nothing about the trajectory of the bullet! Spokane citizens are in fear of those who we pay well to protect us, and we know their jobs are extremely difficult and dangerous. BUT we DEMAND an open investigation by a citizen/law enforcement review panel whenever one of us is shot by a LEO!! Why do the LEOS oppose such a panel? They are quite common across the country!! I challenge the LEOS to explain why they oppose such a review panel!!
misjustice on January 21 at 4:02 p.m.
Funny, kiv, the FEDS don’t see it that way. I don’t recall the EMTs being charged in the federal case.
Kivaari on January 21 at 4:04 p.m.
Spokelewis, Creach put on working pants, and not PJ’s. If you are going to lie, at least lie about things no one has seen in reports and news accounts.
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 4:05 p.m.
“Negligent Handling” ?
Kivaari, watch the video @ KXLY
“Negligent=Knightstick Bashing
“Handling”=MURDER
Thompson started it all and killed with the help of many.
BUT
KARL
THOMPSON
KILLED
OTTO ZEHM
Rest In Peace Otto Zehm
Rest In Peace Pastor Creach
Rest In Peace Quentin Dodd
Rest In Peace Mr.Groom
Rest In Peace Trent Yohe
Rest In Peace Mr. Sichiro
Many more (TOO MANY)
Kivaari on January 21 at 4:07 p.m.
Miscarriage of justice, The feds can’t seem to be able to get it to trial. They got shot down just recently and are once again delaying. If the FEDS prove their case I wont mind at all. You seem to think I support the misbehaviour of Thompson and his buddies. I have never supported the outrageous actions of the officers, nor the sloppy EMS crew. What I have said is Tucker can’t prove a crime, that most of the cops present were just stopping by for a look-see, and I think the EMS crew screwed up.
misjustice on January 21 at 4:10 p.m.
“…just stopping by for a look-see.”
Yeah, good times for the SPD. Now, let’s all high five and chest bump each other!
93bird on January 21 at 4:13 p.m.
Wow. If I did what Hirzel did, not only would I be prosecuted, I’d go to prison. I thought the side of the car said “To Protect and Serve” not “Trespass, then Kill”.
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 4:17 p.m.
OOPS
-
Please remove Alan’s info and SpokaneCopwatch.com
-
My Mistake
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 4:26 p.m.
Thanks Ryan (-:
Thoreau on January 21 at 4:43 p.m.
“lewis on January 21 at 2:17 p.m.
watch the video ahole ”
I’ve flagged this as inappropriate. Not only have you resorted to calling people profane names, but you consistently mention all “cops”, based on these isolated cases, involving a few officers. If you’d like to criticize, be more specific, instead of censuring all police. Spokane County Sheriffs made a harrowing rescue of two lost boys in the forest north of Spokane earlier this week, and your comments ecclipse these acts of genuine public service.
addyh on January 21 at 4:49 p.m.
Seems it’s time for a reminder on our standards: don’t post comments that are obscene, defamatory, threatening, off-topic, an infringement of copyright or an invasion of privacy.
Thanks for observing them -
Addy Hatch, city editor
notanidiot101 on January 21 at 4:51 p.m.
I am very pleased that Tucker has decided not to file charges. I was afraid that he would fall to public pressure. I feel that as common sense tells us, you just don’t present yourself to a uniformed police officer armed, and refusing to put the weapon down. How stupid can you be?? Oh, and byrnes, since you seem to really hate Spokane law enforcement, Please Leave!!! No one is begging, or even asking you to live here. You’re probably the same type that feels that you can do whatever the hell you want, with no consequences. Good riddance………….
Kivaari on January 21 at 4:54 p.m.
TATAS, I would have to agree to a point RE: Zehm, the cops that grabbed him thought they were doing good at getting a robber. Thompson, I think really screwed up. I would not have done it the way he did. I would have pulled my gun and ordered Otto to the floor. There is little need to go hands on or baton on, until the suspect doesn’t comply. Once he is down, and you know your back up is seconds away, I would wait to cuff him. From all I have seen, including a very low quality video, strikes me as being poor police work.
What I find odd, is why didn’t the cops roll Otto onto his side? It was a well known concern that positional asphyxia happens in similar cases. Then the EMS crew, coming on scene when Otto was still breathing. Otto goes into distress in the presence of medical professionals and they don’t take the corrective measures to save his life. Did the EMS crew even monitor the patient? Why did they let Zehm die? Otto didn’t have head trauma, beyond the bruise.
But, this isn’t even the case this article is about.
What do you think of the ME reporting on finding the evidence of the baton strike? It is consistent with Hirzels account of events.
misjustice on January 21 at 4:58 p.m.
notanidiot101, Mr. Byrnes is a respected member of the community. Please click on his name and go through his comments, I think that you will see that he does not “hate” law enforcement and that his comments have been informed and measured.
Kivaari on January 21 at 5:02 p.m.
Addy, Thanks for getting all of us back on track. I have a habit of responding to questions poised to me, and that can just make the the thread expand off topic.
It might be nice if the editor can remind everyone that the newly released evidence supports Hirzels baton strike. The article could have emphasized the comments from the ME.
It gets painful to repeat basic facts that seem to get so distorted by some.
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 5:13 p.m.
The Creach case is so darned complicated by lack of witnesses and the crummy forensic work, not to mention Tucker waiting 150 days (election year). It is incredibly tragic.
I will have to learn more about the ME report and read it in full before I draw any conclusions. Here is a thought, I would think that the baton would have been a poor choice similar to Zehm. De-escalation where possible and all. But, again, we have to take Hirzels word for it, which is where many of us have a hard time trusting him. We all are human and we defend our actions, even when we make mistakes (human nature). When we make a mistake that results in the death of a beloved Pastor…..
adzam on January 21 at 5:16 p.m.
SPD are murderers, plain and simple. Most civilized law enforcement agencies use non-lethal weapons known as a taser. Even a limb shot would cause any gun toting individual to drop their weapon. I have read about dozens of police murdering unarmed citizens over the years and somehow 99% are justified. All the cop has to say is they felt their life was in danger. I’d think if you don’t have the balls for the job and your own shadow scares you perhaps law enforcment is not the job for you. Perhaps some good hard time behind bars would make the next trigger happy Barney Fife think twice in this tiny one horse town. I’m not even religous and I hope that cop burns in hell for murdering an unarmed Pastor on his own property…
Diana on January 21 at 5:18 p.m.
I’m sorry the last face Pastor Creach saw was of that creepy cop.
misjustice on January 21 at 5:20 p.m.
Me, too, Diana. I can’t stand to look at the smirk on his face in the above photo…
Bob_Knows on January 21 at 5:29 p.m.
How deep is the corruption in Spokane? How deep can it get. How many good men have been murdered in the last 6 months? How much of our money do they steal to pay for their hired gun thugs? How many of us are they going to murder this year?
lewis8457 on January 21 at 5:45 p.m.
yes Abby I am sorry, I get upset when I hear cops bad mouth Otto. He is dead and I do not think we will ever see justice for him, and it really upsets me. If i remember Kivaari you were the one that made the first comment about Otto. as usual you start something and then you point fingers when the school marm comes to break up the fight.
Boo-hoo Lewis is picking me :(
Thoreau I don’t doubt we have some good cops out there but the ones that kill people and skate are not good cops. If you don’t like my posts don’t read them i never read yours unless you call me out.
BitofBacon on January 21 at 5:49 p.m.
Lewis, how do you know if he calls you out if you don’t read them first? Just curious.
Marksman on January 21 at 5:59 p.m.
Police respond to gun incident
Posted: Friday, January 21, 2011 12:15 am
Butte police are investigating an incident where a gun may have been fired in a domestic dispute around 5 p.m. Thursday at a rural home several miles east of the Fairmont Hot Springs area.
Police responded to the scene, where dispatch reports indicated a man was wielding a gun outside the home, and that it was fired.
No one was hurt, according to initial reports. The gun was removed from the person and unloaded, but details were unavailable from police at press time on the exactly what occurred.
SugarShane on January 21 at 6:08 p.m.
I must be psychic, I predicted this long ago, when the story first came out. Thanks to all you tucker (rymes with his true name that I cant use here) voters, hope you got just what you wanted.
misjustice on January 21 at 6:21 p.m.
Hirzel will not be immediately returned to patrol duties.
http://www.krem.com/news/local/Next-up-for-Hirzel-deadly-force-review-114396664.html
misjustice on January 21 at 6:25 p.m.
Here’s the pdf Shooting Review, there is some profanity contained within the document.
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/DEPUTY+HIRZEL+SHOOTING+REVIEW.pdf
lewis8457 on January 21 at 6:33 p.m.
bits i have sixth sense i know when someone is bashing me, i guess it comes with the territory here.
jwc928 on January 21 at 6:34 p.m.
The only answer is to do away with the police force and hire the intellectuals that blog here. Whoops, most of them don’t believe in the ugly word (guns). I would hate to be a “law enforcement” person in the world where a smirk is a sign of GUILTY.
misjustice on January 21 at 6:37 p.m.
All I said was that I couldn’t stand the look of it.
herewegoagain on January 21 at 6:55 p.m.
I agree with misjustice, I too don’t care much for the pic and that snide little smirk of his a true mightier than thou look.
lewis8457 on January 21 at 7:06 p.m.
jwc your in a world now where a rock in your hand will get you killed a smirk who cares, he looks like a fatty cathy to me.
here it is in all its glory what gives the cops the right to murder at will, and its law
“In sum, we hold that, although a person who is being unlawfully arrested has a right, as the trial court indicated in instruction 17, to use reasonable and proportional force to resist an attempt to inflict injury on him or her during the course of an arrest, that person may not use force against the arresting officers if he or she is faced only with a loss of freedom.”
This means that even a person who feels they are being
arrested unlawfully has no right to use force and must obey the officers commands and not resist.
Of course the part of this that hasn’t kept up with the times is if you are being unlawfully arrested losing your freedom is not on your mind loosing your life is. i think the basic person is going to fight if they think the cop is going to hurt or kill them.
misjustice on January 21 at 7:29 p.m.
I had a problem with that too, Lewis. Because at what point do citizens know when “faced only with a loss of freedom” will/can that quickly shift to the loss of our life?
PlanB on January 21 at 7:30 p.m.
Yet another murder of an innocent victim by local law enforcement that goes unpunished.
This is exactly why people don’t feel safe. This is exactly the type of lunacy that undermines the respect of law enforcement and pushes someone to kill four police officers in cold blood.
No one is safe because of our ineffective legal system and pathetic prosecution team.
ConfusedConcerned on January 21 at 7:44 p.m.
It’s interesting to hear that a few armed people have been shot by police, and now posters believe that every police officer, the guild, the chief, and all of their relatives are evil and corrupt.
It makes me think back a few years ago to when pastors and ministers were caught molesting children. Creach was a pastor, and yet I dont hear anyone commenting that since he’s a pastor he must be evil and tainted and touching children. It’s ok to say police officers are all corrupt, but religious members are untouchable?
When this story first came out, I was a little saddened. Sounds like a miscommunication between police and a guy trying to protect his property. It was sad, but after reading about all the private investigators and multiple agency investigations, I’m actually a little sick of hearing about it. The Creach family has gone from mourning a loved one to pimping their dead Father for their 15 seconds of fame. In their infinate wisdom, training, schooling, and experience, they KNOW better than detectives from multiple agencies, prosecutors, and anyone else who disagrees with them.
But Tucker has decided to not press charges because a guy with a gun decided he didn’t have to comply with law enforcement. Nor should he. A guy with a gun who won’t follow commands is just as unpredictable as if the gun would have been pointed right at him. Even if Creach had the gun up to Hirzshel’s head, you would still say that “Creach was a pastor, he would have never shot anyone”.
misjustice on January 21 at 7:51 p.m.
“The Creach family has gone from mourning a loved one to pimping their dead Father for their 15 seconds of fame.”
You really didn’t mean that, did you? If it had been your father, and you were looking for answers, would it offend you to read such a statement?
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 7:53 p.m.
Wow….Confused…..
-
“The Creach family has gone from mourning a loved one to pimping their dead Father for their 15 seconds of fame.”
-
Stay Classy Pal.
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 7:55 p.m.
Great minds think alike Mis”J”
ConfusedConcerned on January 21 at 8:04 p.m.
It’s amazing. Say a million negative things about police, and their families, and no one bats an eye. Say one thing about a guy who thinks he’s Batman with a gun, and everyone thinks that’s too far.
You are the problem. Someone had a different opinion than you and you felt personally attacked even though you have no relation to anything to have to do with the story. You dont see me calling out every comment you make about defaming the police, so i’m just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.
Scoutster on January 21 at 8:06 p.m.
ConfusedConcerned…
You point out two of the biggest problems with the knee jerk cop defenders:
1) For most serious thinking folks, it is not that the cops are evil or commit murder or any of those things…The issue is the complete lack of accountability and the inept fact finding that goes on AFTER an event like this that is the problem. It makes even good cops look bad. And, yes, we have every right to question every act every officer makes on our behalf while in uniform. I don’t give a rip how hard their job is. Ensuring accountability for their behavior is OUR job. That’s how it works. Don’t like it? Move to a dictatorship.
2) When the facts don’t work, the knee jerk cop defenders move to blaming the victims (or the victim’s family). You are so off base to accuse this family of wanting fame. What, you think they are reality star wannabees (like the guys on COPS or the Kardashians?) The Creach family is doing their best to find the truth on behalf of all of us who live here. I thank them for it.
Scoutster on January 21 at 8:12 p.m.
So, for all you 2nd Amendment hobbyists…
If I don’t believe the civil authorities are acting in my best interests or if I believe they are even putting me or my family at risk (which more and more of us are starting to believe about our local LE), isn’t the whole idea that I should be able to resist with my sacred firearm? It’s an individual right, correct?
So, if I am challenged by a cop and I don’t believe s/he is acting within the Constitution, wouldn’t I be within MY rights to NOT surrender my sacred firearm and shoot THEM instead?
Just askin.
misjustice on January 21 at 8:14 p.m.
All I did was ask if you really intended what you said. I highly doubt that did, Confused. I know that emotions run high.
Scout, you are correct; this is not a dictatorship kept in power by an armed militia, yet.
Believe it or not, civilians are in charge of the police, not the other way around. And we have every right to question their actions, to review their actions/policies/protocols, and to demand accountability.
Tatas; we like, posted in stereo…
; )
misjustice on January 21 at 8:14 p.m.
should have read, I highly doubt that you did, Confused.
Ron_the_Cop on January 21 at 8:24 p.m.
Tatas @ 5:13 PM You nailed it! We have only one living witness. Perhaps we don’t have the truth yet. A dash cam would have been worth it’s weight in gold. Perhaps some good could come out of this if the community helps Sheriff Knezovich equip his fleet with dash cams.
Kivaari @ 4:54 PM You and I agree on the Zehm case.
Tucker has done no one any favors with his tolerance of an incomplete OIS report and not sending it back to have the additional investigative work that was necessary be done.
I will post my email to Tucker and related info on my blog in a few and provide a link.
bszottlinger on January 21 at 8:25 p.m.
It is interesting that Mr. Driscoll’s review is little more then a regurgitation of some of the police reports, and nothing more. I wonder if he even looked at the video tape interviews. There is no questioning in his review of several areas. As an example Mr. Driscoll simply states “In an interview with Det. Hamond, Dr. Howard said small marks on Mr.Creach’s left leg and thigh, one above the left knee, the others below the left knee, COULD HAVE BEEN caused from the tip of a baton if the strike was not solid. Dr. Howard also stated that two parallel marks that ran roughly parallel to the femur COULD HAVE BEEN caused by the inside edges of the pant seam if a Baton strike were delivered along that seam.” This is verbatim from Detective Hammonds report of his interview with Dr. Howard on 9/23/10 and apparently he did not ask whether the bruising COULD HAVE BEEN caused by something else, The Detective apparently did not ask Dr. Howard whether or not he could say with a reasonable degree of medical certainty that the injuries were caused by a baton strike. ( the answer to that would be no)
It doesn’t appear that the prosecutors office did anything more then read the reports. They apparently never asked for any kind of clarification from the investigators regarding any issues and isn’t it interesting that Mr. Driscoll was contacted by Lt. McGovern on 12/12.2010 and was asked if there was anything more he needed the investigators to follow up on. The answer McGovern received was “No”.
What a shame.
misjustice on January 21 at 8:32 p.m.
Brad, I thought that Ducker delayed his determination because he was going over additional info obtained by the PI ? Do you, or Ron, know if that info was included in the final review?
ConfusedConcerned on January 21 at 8:33 p.m.
That’s rediculous to say that it’s not the police you’re upset at but the accountability. I’m pretty sure Tucker was elected by a majority vote in the last election, but because it wasn’t the way you wanted it, the whole system is flawed now.
I don’t see any posters picketing outside of the police department, city hall, courtrooms, or anywhere. So actually if anyone is to blame for the lack of oversight of the police, blame yourself for not getting any changes.
In the Creach situation, you have two men armed with firearms. The only two possible outcomes from that situation is that both men lower their firearms or one person gets shot. The deputy has all the rights in the world to carry his firearm and protect himself while on duty. Creach has the right to possess a firearm and comply with police directions. He chose not to exercise his rights.
And to Scoutster about the second ammendment right…
You have the right to bear arms. That’s it. You do have every right to comply with the police. Unless you have an intimate knowledge of the R.C.W., Case Law, and Police procedure, you really have no idea what your rights are. But everyone THINKS that they know all their rights.
misjustice on January 21 at 8:38 p.m.
Confused, the system was flawed prior to the election.
So, do you stand by your statement about the family or do you want to withdraw it?
Thayne on January 21 at 8:43 p.m.
The parts of Hirzel’s fairy tale that I still have a problem with is the fact that he was close enough to use his baton on Pastor Creach (although there was no evidence of it), but not close enough to hit him again when he allegedly reached for the gun behind his back. I also seem to remember he (Hirzel) said he he felt threatened when he saw the butt of the gun. I don’t know of any guns that fire rounds out the butt. There is stuff coming out of a butt with Hirzel’s (take a week off to think about it) story- but it’s bovine related.
ConfusedConcerned on January 21 at 8:44 p.m.
why so concerned MisJ?
misjustice on January 21 at 8:52 p.m.
Just checking to make sure which it is, Confused, or Concerned?
Scoutster on January 21 at 9:04 p.m.
I humbly surrender superior knowledge of the nuances of the 2nd Amendment to those who know more. I have not made a practice of researching it, but my question was sincere.
So, if we only have a right to keep and bear arms, not to use them…well, that’s like taking an unloaded gun to a knife fight if I have no legal protection if I discharge it, isn’t it?
And, do I get to use it if I believe I am threatened unconstitutionally by a uniformed person? Is self-defense not permitted? I’m wondering if there were cases of African Americans in the south after the Civil War, for example…does the 2nd Amendment give them protection to shoot a sheriff if that sheriff had lynching on his mind?
Any one know?
Ron_the_Cop on January 21 at 9:09 p.m.
BSZ,
Yep. I haven’t read Tucker’s report yet but you’re right it just appears to be a rehash with no real critical review. On the two parallel marks, Driscoll apparently did not read the WSP forensic report that pretty much excluded these marks as being caused by the inseam of the pants being struck by the baton. I have this report which was done in mid Sept well before the election.
You can read me opinion of Tucker’s decision in this blog post:
Creach OIS - Tucker makes decision on incomplete report/investigation
http://tinyurl.com/474somn
ConfusedConcerned on January 21 at 9:21 p.m.
It’s not about the emotion but about what caused it in the first place. I’m concerned about why people follow the Spokesman like sheep. The Spokesman is notorious for yellow journalism. I can’t get a decent fact out of it without hearing the reporter’s take on the whole thing. I can’t read about one issue and determine anything for myself, when I have to read through two pages of recollecting the last 5 years to get to anything relevant with present day. I blame the fact that there’s no secondary newspaper in Spokane, so the Spokesman can say whatever they want to about anybody because they have the Monopoly.
I’m also confused about why posters seem to care so much about issues like this, but other than chatting with a close friend or relative about police shootings, I have seen no organizations, picketing, or initiatives about changing the system. If it’s really enough to make you log onto a website and spout hate, then it should be initiative enough to do something about it. But no one wants to. People want to hide online, behind their computer screens, and bitch and moan and defame others.
bszottlinger on January 21 at 9:46 p.m.
Ron_the_Cop:
He did mention Schneck’s report in his review, but must not of correlated the location of the bruises on the leg Dr Howard said COULD HAVE BEEN caused by the TIP of a BATON if the strike was not solid, Schneck’s evidence that the lack of crush damage could mean NO STRIKE OCCURRED, the strike was in an area on the BACK OF THE LEG, or on a LEG MUSCLE that would soften the blow to prevent fiber crush, or the amount of force used was NOT ENOUGH to leave an impression, and Hirzel’s various descriptions of the blow including the first one prior to the media release regarding the lack of consistent evidence on the body in which Hirzel stated the strike “Buckled” Creach.
“WSP Patrol Scientist William Schneck tested Deputy Hirzel’s baton and
uniform pants and Mr. Creach’s pants. Wood fibers found in Mr. Creach’s
pants were not consistent with wood from Deputy Hirzel’s baton. Fibers
found on Deputy Hirzel’s baton were not consistent with Deputy Hirzel’s or
Mr. Creach’s pants. There was no evidence of fiber crush damage on Mr.
Creach’s pants. Schneck explained this could mean any of the following: no
strike occurred; the strike was in an area on the back of the leg or on a leg
muscle that would soften the blow and prevent fiber crush; the amount of
force used was not enough to leave an impression.”
Justy:
If they did it isn’t documented in Driscoll’s review. But his review could have been written in October.
Scoutster on January 21 at 9:47 p.m.
So, now we go from blame the victim to blame the media (or, should I say, the Mainstream Media?).
Has it occurred to you that taking to the streets to protest police action might be a very dangerous activity in this town?
Is that how public outrage is measured now? How many people protest in front of the courthouse in January? I respectfully suggest that is not a very accurate instrument.
misjustice on January 21 at 9:50 p.m.
Ron, thanks for the link. Just read it…
I’ve always had a “problem” with the time line and the actions claimed by the officer within the given time frame; I am merely a lowly civilian but to me it didn’t seem like the officer could have done all the things claimed in such a short amount of time.
Your post on your blog has not alleviated my suspicions/concerns.
Confused; these blogs are a type of community, instead of chatting over the fence, many of us chat here. And despite what you may or may not “see” some of us ARE trying to change the current system of review in OISs.
bszottlinger on January 21 at 9:52 p.m.
CC:
Just hold on will you! Some of us are new to the Spokane dynamics and more used to big city stuff. We are working on it, we’ll get it done give us a little time. We are trying to do it in a way that is fair to you police folks.
bszottlinger on January 21 at 10:00 p.m.
Where are the slippers?
saveyourtatas on January 21 at 10:03 p.m.
Slippers are right next to the socks and underwear, hun.
Warm milk sound good?
bszottlinger on January 21 at 10:10 p.m.
I was referring to Mr. Creach’s slippers can’t find any forensic work up on them, although Det Hammond was reviewing the crime scene photos to see if there was any blood “visible” on the slippers. I would think a forensic report would detail blood evidence on the slippers if there was any. If there wasn’t, yet there was blood spatter evidence on Hirzel’s pants and boots something needs explaining.
misjustice on January 21 at 10:11 p.m.
Ron, thanks for the active link to the “cage fight”, contained within your blog post. I was troubled by that information when it was first made public and even more so, now. I think that the e-mails speak volumes about the mindset prevailing the “investigation” and also shows a lack of leadership by the Chief.
“In a September 13th email Chief Kirkpatrick wrote the following to Assistant Chief Jim Nicks, referring to releasing the Creach report: “There will be no more delays. The case goes Wednesday. Even if the lab results are not back.”
And even more telling, in my mind…
“An email later that day from Spokane Police Department Public Information Officer Jen Deruwe to Chief Kirkpatrick said, “We won.”
Yeah, Jen, you won; the Creach family and the general public lost. Too bad for us, I guess.
D Statler on January 21 at 10:12 p.m.
I am guessing after being beatin with the baton. Mr. Creach truely was scared for his life. I know I would have been. I just wonder what would have happened to Mr. Creach if he would have got off the first shot? I am also wondering if Mr.Hirzel will be receive disapline for his role in the sex toy buisness coverup? I am also wondering why we don’t screen our police better before hiring them? Where are the Federal Marshals that should be investigating these SEVEN shootings? Why is there no comments from our County Commissioners? Who is really in control of this mess? I would protest downtown if I were not afraid of being shot or maliciously prosecuted!
The Creach family is in our prayers. My deepest sorrow goes out to you for your loss. I couldn’t imagine loosing my father to a heavy handed COP!
bszottlinger on January 21 at 10:15 p.m.
Well, I’ll say it before someone else does. Yep, this is Monday morning quarterbacking all the questions and issues that should have been addressed at the prosecutors level. He should have been the quarterback and the investigators the receivers.
misjustice on January 21 at 10:16 p.m.
Well, Scout, we could all show up outside the police department with our guns and tea bags hanging off of our hats, and funny misspelled signs…exercise our first as well as our second amendment rights.
misjustice on January 21 at 10:20 p.m.
undooly; Hirzel was a “lateral transfer” out of Kootenai County. I’m not sure how much scrutiny is given to those types of transfers. Maybe Ron knows?
lewis8457 on January 21 at 10:21 p.m.
confused aren’t you the one spouting hate? call the Creach family pimps. you have as much morale fiber as you buddy Kivaari. that was a pretty low statement. and where do you get the info we do not like the cops families and relatives? i ever read that in any posts. why is it you need to make up a story that isn’t true to make your point. Frankly i think you are more confused then concerned.
Ron_the_Cop on January 21 at 10:22 p.m.
BSZ
I don’t recall any mention of blood spatter on the slippers nor any mention of any requests for forensics on them.
Thx Justy. Just trying to be helpful with links to real facts about what was going on in the background that had nothing to do with the search for the truth in this tragic shooting.
As I wrote Tucker his record did not return him to office:
“CAUTION - the OIS reports as presented to you are incomplete and leave issues/questions unanswered and unaddressed. An informed decision whether this tragic shooting was criminally justified or not - is not possible at this point.
Why you didn’t send this OIS report immediately back to the OIS investigative team for further investigation is beyond me. Even though SPD sent several emails asking if you required any additional information, the general answer was from your office was no. Why? Perhaps as discovered by KREM2 in their report Cage Fight; the timing of your decision had more do to with your then pending election for County Prosecutor than a search for the truth as to what actually happened in this tragic event. Unfortunately the voters returned you to office because the two viable Republican candidates took each other out in the primary. Because this was a Republican year those Republican voters who voted a straight ticket return you to office. Apparently they did not notice the Republican Party did not endorse your reelection. I will continue to hold you accountable for your actions or more appropriately your inaction and lack of leadership in the law enforcement community as this County’s chief law enforcement officer.”
lewis8457 on January 21 at 10:22 p.m.
opps should read
i have NEVER read that
bszottlinger on January 21 at 10:23 p.m.
Justy:
I notice Jen is not posting anymore. Maybe Anne relieved her of the task.
cjkids02 on January 21 at 10:26 p.m.
Ron the COP! Hahaha I have read your reviews you have posted! I have also done some homework on you…….. You are a retired FRAUD investigator a check chaser and Graffiti investigator! Have you ever investigated a homicide, anywgere, EVER? It is clear you have not and contact I made with your dept shows you went through police training in the 1970’s…… um was foresnsic sceince even considered then? It seems as though your a BLOW HARD with wide accusations. Your “investigative” measures come up with WIDE statements with few narrowed requests! Oh your right I’m a COP….lol nope just a mommy that’s well educated and does my homework!
I have searched other officer shootings and reviewed case laws and RCW’s and came to my own conclusions, the read those silly statements of posters and a 60 year old fraud cop.. Who as I can tell has never investigated anything invlving officer shootings…….. DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
misjustice on January 21 at 10:26 p.m.
Naw, Brad, she was on the tee vee in her BDUs (with a new hairdo) just the other day when they had that suspicious package on 1st Street.
bszottlinger on January 21 at 10:27 p.m.
Tatas probably stole them out of the evidence lockup and is wearing them and drinking warm milk.
Ron_the_Cop on January 21 at 10:31 p.m.
Justy,
You get the feeling that background folks didn’t look much beyond K County.
For those wanting to put this in perspective of why SPD suffers at the leadership level, folks should read Larry Shook’s new piece:
A mayor’s anarchy & criminal government in America today
http://tinyurl.com/4cyhobb
lewis8457 on January 21 at 10:31 p.m.
Confused were you here for the police riot on Fourth of July when some youth tried to protest police brutality? Many of our youth were jailed and beat up that day trying to use their right of free speech.
You don’t see people marching against the police for that reason. It can be very expensive and it could cost much more then bail money it could cost you your life and then people like you would be posting how we were losers for trying to demonstrate.
It is a losing battle in Spokane until one of the police kills a redneck with a lot of gun toting friends. Just a matter of time I figure.
bszottlinger on January 21 at 10:33 p.m.
Well Ron you know it ‘s coming. But I’m not sure how you “invlving” an officer shooting. It sounds dirty.
nitro71 on January 21 at 10:33 p.m.
My opinion is that there are a lot of things wrong with this confrontation. Why did Hirzel have to use the baton on Creach? I haven’t seen anything indicating what lead up to that. Why did Hirzel not identify who Creach was? Just because Hirzel saw a butt of a gun doesn’t give him the right to disarm a legaly carrying citizen on their own property in my opinion. Creach was not commiting any crime. Was on his own property. Was exercising his rights given by the 2nd Ammendment and RCW of WA. WA is also a open carry state. We have the right to own and bare arms here. We also have the right to defend our property with the appropriate level of force. My main issue with the Spokane law enforcement authorities is that anyone with any type of a weapon seems to be branded as dangerous to them. I also am concerned that the laws allow them to easily shoot people who in my opinion are not that large of threat to them. Guy has a knife, I have my gun at a ready position or covering him. Comon. You are not in that much danger even if the suspect does NOT comply with dropping his knife or rock or soda bottle or whatever. Things need to change with how our police force operates.
misjustice on January 21 at 10:33 p.m.
Is that like an uvula?
; )
misjustice on January 21 at 10:36 p.m.
Ron, but before K County, there was that stuff in Cathedral City…do you think that Ozzie even knew about Cathedral City?
misjustice on January 21 at 10:37 p.m.
Lewis, I hope mommy’s kids are with a sitter tonight!
lewis8457 on January 21 at 10:37 p.m.
cjkids you might want to learn how to spell before you call someone else a fraud. hard to be a good mommy when you cant spell involved.
bszottlinger on January 21 at 10:40 p.m.
I had an enlarged one once (uvula that is), found that ice cream was the best thing.
misjustice on January 21 at 10:42 p.m.
Glad you clarified that, Brad.
; )
cjkids02 on January 21 at 10:44 p.m.
Hahaha really that’s all you have? I mispelled a word or two while typing….. Is ths really your answer? Seriously? Funny but sad, as clearly you all have a focused and limited view! Hahahah good night don’t stay up playing with your uvulas!
misjustice on January 21 at 10:47 p.m.
Lewis, I remember the “anarchists” picnic in the park; it wasn’t pretty.
“18 anarchists and anti-authoritarians were arrested in Riverfront Park after marching peacefully against police brutality through downtown Spokane, Wa.”
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=2007spokanejuly4
lewis8457 on January 21 at 10:48 p.m.
ice cream is good for everything
Ron_the_Cop on January 21 at 10:51 p.m.
BSZ,
I didn’t quite get your question. My point is there is definitely an issue with the efficacy and leadership of the SPD command staff. The reason why there has been no real change in the command staff is because of the systemic corruption in Spokane government.
If the command staff were changed to bring in effective leadership that would correct the issues we have observed, the danger is they would not be tolerant of the criminal acts committed by “powers that be” as Mayor Verner refers to them in Shook’s piece. So hence the status quo and no incentive to bring about any real change.
misjustice on January 21 at 10:51 p.m.
Well, cjkids, we were giving you the benefit of doubt. I mean, you seem so well versed, reasoned, and composed your argument in such a cogent manner it left us little to question. And by your own admission, are very well educated.
misjustice on January 21 at 10:58 p.m.
SPD had the lead in the investigation, but Ozzie’s department hired Hirzel. Do you know, Ron, if Spokane County looks too deep on a “lateral transfer”? Or if Kootenai County was good enough for them? I’m just curious…
Ron_the_Cop on January 21 at 11:01 p.m.
Justy,
I really don’t know. I tend to suspect the later in this case.
misjustice on January 21 at 11:09 p.m.
Thanks, Ron. Appreciate all of the info and discussion. I’ll do a little digging, tomorrow…
Good luck with the swelling, Brad.
; )
I imagine they’ll be shutting this thread down soon.
Good night all!
; )
bszottlinger on January 21 at 11:12 p.m.
Ron,
I mean they will attack the messenger, as one of the blind folk did above.
Ed Byrnes on January 21 at 11:26 p.m.
Am I bothered by the recent and dramatic increase in OIS’s in our community? Yes I am. My faith tells me that we are all brothers and sisters, no matter who we are, and we can all see that too many are being killed.
misjustice: Thank you for your kind estimation of my postings. I am still working on my op-ed piece regarding direct citizen review of OIS’s; My day job has required a lot of attention these past few weeks with a new quarter beginning.
notanidiot101: I am disgusted by two things, ineptitude and arrogance, which don’t mix well together. The number of recent OIS’s, which are disproportionate for a municipality of this size, point, for all to see, to a problem with our local law enforcement. As I have said I have worked with several jurisdictions around the west as well as state and federal law enforcement and we have a problem here in Spokane. Additionally, if you read the postings by many law enforcement personnel their arrogance and contempt for civilians is obvious. Does their contempt and arrogance earn our respect? Even when there are obvious injustices such as the Otto Zehm or Bradley Thoma cases local enforcement members do not speak out and instead choose to maintain a code of silence, which breeds mistrust among citizens toward law enforcement. It is a very rare and courageous LLE member such as cpd805 who speaks directly to the problem and engages in a dialogue about solutions rather than an arrogantly condescending monologue.
notanidiot101 I hope you do read some of my other postings as misjustice has suggested you do. To make things easier on you here is a thread for you to read and if after reading it you still believe I hate law enforcement there is not much anyone can do for you: http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/nov/05/standoff-ends-peacefully/
Briefly my credentials include an earned Ph.D. from a designated Carnegie Research I institution, service as a founding member of the University of Utah Criminal Justice Center when I lived and worked there, service as a tenured faculty member and program director at a local university here, and service as a research and statistical consultant to the U.S. Departments of Justice, Education, and Housing and Urban Development. I worked for 15 years in Utah’s juvenile justice system with gang involved youths. I am also a religious educator in a local congregation.
I recently offered another poster the opportunity to share their credentials and that poster never did present theirs; Perhaps you will be more transparent in demonstrating that your moniker is an earned one.
One final thought is that when someone questions or opposes authority it is not the same as hatred. It is clear that an ever growing number of us citizens are deeply disappointed with our local law enforcement agencies lack of transparency and accountability and none of us are moving anywhere because we love Spokane enough to speak out.
Zelda Krup: Thank you for shedding light on this cluster assertion. As a professional statistician who consults for the U.S. Department of Justice among other public and private entities I say that you are on the mark. I worked with a U.S. Attorney in another jurisdiction and we used clusters of events to identify and ultimately incarcerate crooked gun dealers. A cluster points to an improbable set of events - unless of course one uses statistics as a drunkard uses a lamppost, for support rather than illumination :) The data indeed point to a problem in Spokane.
Let’s get to solving the problem through using the direct political avenues available to us to demand transparency and accountability from our local law enforcement agencies.
Ed
spokanecougar on January 22 at 12:09 a.m.
Is anyone really that surprised by this?
Personally, I think its a shame and I hope the family sues the hell out of the department and Mr. Hirzel.
Ron_the_Cop on January 22 at 1:54 a.m.
Cjkids02 @ 10:26 Hrs.
I notice you’ve just began to post recently. It’s late and I’m not going to link to my professional vitae. Just Google my AKA Ron the Cop and or Det. Ron Wright - professional vitae. Dr. Brynes has been kind enough to give some of his professional experience. Perhaps you could give some personal history too?
Actually read my email to Mr. Tucker re my experience in OIS investigations and my extensive experience as a criminal investigator. I might add the on TV it may appear that the robbery/homicide detectives’ skill set is the best law enforcement has to offer but I would offer the skill set of an economic crimes detective that works complex fraud, computer related crimes and white collar crime requires a skill set that far exceeds that of a homicide detective. BTW it was my skills that got the CAD call incident history in seconds in the Creach OIS when the SPD major crimes detectives were told this information was not available.
I earned a masters of administration degree from the University of California, Riverside and a BA in political science from Cal State Univ, Fullerton. I was a two-two president of a police union of a large municipal PD with over 500 sworn and civilian employees. I’ve taught forensics and crimes scene investigation, community oriented policing and controversial issues in LE at the college level.
Please see some of my commendations from my district attorney’s office, industry professionals and my police command staff:
http://tinyurl.com/4mll6gm
I too like Dr. Brynes have chosen to live in Spokane for it’s many fine attributes and amenities. I choose to become involved to make this a better place to live. My expectations of my LE colleagues esp. Mr. Tucker is apparently greater than what has been the norm.
If people want real change in LE in this community then I would suggest it’s time to recall Steve Tucker for incompetence and failure to do his sworn duties as the chief law enforcement officer in the County.
Det. Ron Wright (Retired)
nannette on January 22 at 1:55 a.m.
spokeanecougar
That’s right .
If you can’t get them criminally legal, then get them civilly(sic).
And by all means we all wait with abreated breath for the blue
line to do what;s right.
nannette on January 22 at 1:59 a.m.
OTTO ZEHM
OTTO ZEHM
By the way,where are the stupid chicks that called 911 against
OTTO ZEHM?
Marcus on January 22 at 4:40 a.m.
now if i was in the same situation as Hirzel was in and i shot an armed guy on his own property i’m pretty sure that i would be in jail. I would be prosecuted there wouldn’t be a 8 month investigation in to weather or not to charge me i would be charged.
But no in Spokane the cops are above the law if he is innocent than charge him and let a jury decide that!
for Mr tucker you lost my vote i kinda think that there should be a petition started to remove him from office.
ChefGus/ John Olsen on January 22 at 5:10 a.m.
We all missed our chance to change the culture here in Spokane County by not electing Frank Malone to replace Mr Tucker. Likely we will have to try again in a few years… because a recall of an elected official for not doing an effective job is nearly impossible. For now just realize that the “Community of Other” suffers every day with no relief. The publicity that this white Baptist Pastor is giving the complex justice system here in our area is illuminating, but will change nothing. Gus
Liberty_Bell on January 22 at 6:43 a.m.
The Ku Klux Act of 1871, Confusing Tucker Forever!
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
No. 09–350
LOS ANGELES COUNTY, CALIFORNIA, PETITIONER
v. CRAIG ARTHUR HUMPHRIES ET AL.
ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF
APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT
[November 30, 2010]
JUSTICE BREYER delivered the opinion of the Court.
In Monell v. New York City Dept. of Social Servs., 436
U. S. 658 (1978), this Court held that civil rights plaintiffssuing a municipal entity under 42 U. S. C. §1983 must show that their injury was caused by a municipal policy or custom. The case before the Court in Monell directly involved monetary damages. The question presented is whether the “policy or custom” requirement also applieswhen plaintiffs seek prospective relief, such as an injunc-tion or a declaratory judgment. We conclude that it does so apply.
Liberty_Bell on January 22 at 6:45 a.m.
The Federal Criminal Law, regarding trespassing by Tuckers Clowns also confuse em with the 5th Amendment.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/federal-statutes
recallstevetucker on January 22 at 9:00 a.m.
Enough is Enough!!!
Facebook: Recallstevetucker!!
spokanecougar on January 22 at 10:18 a.m.
Steve Tucker is an idiot. Him being re-elected so many times just shows how little people in this area actually and pay attention to anything or anyone when they vote……they just vote for the R or the D next to the name.
zelda on January 22 at 3:23 p.m.
I’d venture a guess there’s not much political will to investigate the Creach shooting overly much. If you’re searching for a bug, chances are that all kinds of creepy-crawly things will be under the rock you turn over. It’s probably worth it to some folks in positions of power to let the death of one respectable citizen pass in order to keep certain things hidden. They might consider this to be an acceptable error rate for the process and people they have in place. It takes a lot to overcome the inertia.
eagleproducer on January 23 at 8:29 a.m.
ron: Why is the response from cops when something involves the cops almost always a call for more resources for the cops? Dash cams? I’d settle for people of character wearing the uniform and telling the truth even when it makes them look bad or reveals negligence or criminal behavior.
I know, I know…
confused: Perfect screen name, btw… It as not “ministers and pastors” who were abusing children. It was Catholic Priests.
I’ve never been impressed with Steven Tucker. I think he’s become what he’s become the way most powerful white males do: Through unearned privilege, glad-handing the right people and looking the part for the minions of morons in Spokane County who’d vote for Kevin Coe if he had an R next to his name.
I think what we really need to ask is why is the prosecutor’s office is an elected position in the first place, along with the Sheriff’s office. Justice should not ever be politicized.
eagleproducer on January 23 at 8:35 a.m.
nanette: I know who the “stupid chicks” are who called 911 and started the Zehm fiasco. I’ve contacted both of them to request interviews for the film I’m producing currently. Only one responded to the request and it wasn’t to express interest/disinterest but to ask how I found her. I sent one other request for an on camera interview. In the absence of their side of the story I’ll portray them in the manner I feel reflects the truth: As the ones who distorted the truth that set in motion the activities that led to Otto’s death. Their names are public record as are the images I have gleaned from the internet and will be used in film. They will not get a free ride through this. They are almost as culpable as Thompson in my opinion.
Hcklbery on January 25 at 11:59 a.m.
In times like this it is easy to see the better points of the old time western citizens justice approach versus this modern day neutered justice approach.
This deputy can thank his “whatever’s” that this isn’t the old west.
If this had been MY father and in the old west times ? WHEW WEE. That would be one dead deputy. UNFORTUNATE, MOST UNFORTUNATE justice has not been served. I can only hope that the Creach family will sue the bedazzles out of the State, County AND this John Wayne wannabee “deputy”.
WE NEED THE FEDS TO STEP IN.
THE CITIZENRY IS DESPERATELY IN NEED FOR THE FEDS TO STEP IN WITH HARSHNESS.
BitofBacon on January 25 at 7:25 p.m.
Yeah, bring the feds in-aren’t the feds the ones that brought us Ruby Ridge? Aren’t they the ones that brought us Waco? Yeah, that’s the ticket!
jwc928 on January 27 at 10:16 p.m.
So much knowledge and only one witness. Sorry demonizing law enforcement is such a waste of time and typing.
crstrode on January 28 at 10:16 a.m.
Spokane County is spotlessly clean … at least it looks that way from the thick coating of whitewash.