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January 22, 2011 in City
Deputy won’t face charges in shooting
Hirzel’s use of force showed no malice, prosecutor says Pastor’s family continues to question fatal encounter
Alan Creach says his family is “trying to find the truth” in the shooting death of his father, Wayne Scott Creach, pictured on desk.
(Full-size photo)(All photos)
A Spokane County Sheriff’s Office deputy won’t face criminal charges in the shooting death of a 74-year-old Spokane Valley pastor, a decision Prosecutor Steve Tucker says came down to this fact: Deputy Brian Hirzel has more protection under the law than the average citizen.
“It’s kind of a law enforcement shield,” Tucker said Friday. “Unless we can show (Hirzel) is showing malice or evil intent, we can’t hold him criminally liable.”
In addition, Hirzel said he didn’t fire his gun until he saw Wayne Scott Creach grab for his gun, so the shooting was also allowed under a separate self-defense statute that applies to everyone, Tucker said.
“As soon as you feel you are in imminent danger, like drawing a gun, you are allowed to use deadly force,” Tucker said. Hirzel “was the only witness we had.”
Hirzel shot Creach late on Aug. 25 in the parking lot of Creach’s greenhouse business in Spokane Valley. Hirzel was in an unmarked car and did not alert the business owner before parking there to watch for activity in the neighborhood in response to a neighbor’s call.
Alan Creach, the pastor’s son, said he and his brother, Ernie Creach, don’t believe investigators have taken the time to challenge key elements of the investigation regarding the few seconds in which the confrontation took place.
“I’m not surprised,” Creach said after meeting with Tucker and learning his decision. “A man is lying dead from protecting his own property. We were all under the impression that we were protected by amendments that allow us to protect ourselves and carry weapons without fear of losing our lives.”
Tucker agreed, to a point.
“You do have the right to bear arms. But as soon as someone is threatened or alarmed by it, you have to put it down,” he said. “If a cop says drop the gun, you have to drop the gun. There is no right to resist an unlawful arrest. If it’s an unlawful arrest, sue him later … but don’t fight him.”
Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich said Tucker’s decision does nothing to change the status of Hirzel, who has been on desk duty for the past five months. On Monday, the department will begin an internal investigation into the shooting to determine if all policies and procedures were followed.
“In the criminal investigation, Hirzel had the right to remain silent. But in the internal investigation … it’s mandatory truthfulness,” Knezovich said. “We can make mistakes. But if you lie, you’re done.”
The Creach family has raised several issues, such as the use of an unmarked car and parking in a private lot without notifying the business owner. Knezovich said any policy changes will come at the conclusion of the internal probe.
“I’ve already told the team, this will not take forever,” Knezovich said. “This will be thorough … but I want it timely.”
Following the internal probe, the case will go before the department’s citizen advisory board, he said.
“This was a very tragic situation for the Creach family, for the community and Deputy Hirzel,” he said. “We will have a very transparent review of this.”
Hirzel told investigators that he parked at The Plant Farm, 14208 E. Fourth Ave., and was writing a collision report at 11:07 p.m. when he saw the shirtless Creach approaching with a flashlight in his left hand and a gun pointed downward in his right hand.
Hirzel said he repeatedly told Creach to drop the gun, but investigators could find no neighbors who heard any of that exchange. Only Creach’s wife, Imogene, reported hearing anything, and she described what sounded like her husband yelling out in fear before the shot was fired.
Hirzel said Creach initially responded that he didn’t have to drop his gun, and told the deputy that he had had problems with theft in the past. Creach eventually put the gun in the back waistband of his pants.
Hirzel then ordered Creach onto the ground, but Creach refused. Hirzel couldn’t remember exactly when he called for backup, but said he struck Creach on the outside of the left knee with his baton. It’s then, Hirzel said, that Creach reached for his gun.
“When I saw his hand go behind his back and come out with a gun, or the grip of the gun that I saw, there wasn’t a doubt in my mind that he was going to shoot me,” Hirzel, 42, told investigators, according to transcripts.
Following the shooting, Tucker had three deputy prosecutors review the investigation. Together, they decided in late December not to file criminal charges. But they waited for Chief Criminal Deputy Prosecutor Jack Driscoll to write a 33-page report explaining the decision, Tucker said.
“This appears to be a tragic situation where an officer, because he felt he was about to be shot, felt no other recourse but to use deadly force after Mr. Creach repeatedly failed to comply with the officer’s commands,” Driscoll wrote in the report. “Under these facts, Deputy Hirzel cannot be held criminally liable for his use of deadly force.”
Tucker said he didn’t think five months was too long to take to announce a decision, and he pointed out that the case was delayed by detectives asking for more time to review information obtained by people working with the Creach family.
In addition, the investigation was handed over to prosecutors by Spokane Police Department detectives – who handled the case under an interagency agreement – without autopsy results. Tucker said he was concerned because it was the first shooting review he’d ever seen without that information attached.
“I think it concerned the lead detective,” Tucker said of the transfer of the case from police to the prosecutor’s office, “… like it was being pushed over.”
He added, “I’m not sure what the motivation was, other than (police) not wanting to answer the phone calls anymore” about a case that sparked widespread community comment and even outrage.
As for Hirzel, Tucker said he spoke with the deputy about the events that evening.
Hirzel “found out there was no bullet in the chamber (of Creach’s gun). He said he felt bad about that, but there was no way for him to know,” Tucker said. “Then he found out he was a property owner. And then he found out he was a pastor. It can’t get much worse than that. He just feels bad about it.”
Alan Creach said the family feels even worse.
“I’m calling baloney on the whole program,” Creach said. “We are trying to find the truth.”
Creach said his family will continue its investigation, which has turned up several things he called discrepancies when compared with the law enforcement investigation.
“My challenge to Steve Tucker, as the foremost law enforcement official in this county, was to step up and demand a higher standard by law enforcement,” Creach said. “If this is his decision, I don’t believe that’s demanding a higher standard.”
Closing Geiger: Wise or worrisome? 
Dazzeetrader11 on January 22 at 12:32 a.m.
1. Stinks. Remeber the Hirzel strikes to the legs? Now only one baton strieke to the left knee. Remember too there was nothing on autopsy consistent with a baton strike to the legs.
2. Kind of odd a man with an empty gun would draw it. Does anyone do that?
This report doesn’t make sense….in many areas. Someone in Spokane needs to call the FBI and independently ask how this type of thing and the other police matters are managed by an outside force with standing. Maybe it’s the FBI.
Ozzie’s approach is unsatisfactory. Fitzpatrick should have been fired years ago. She’s lost control and appears to be unwilling to regain it. Verner says she’s doesn’t know enough to comment.? Well WHO DOES??!?! Somebody has to be responsible and responsive don’t they?
It might be that the threshold for shooting has been lowered. Is is all just “shoot to kill” now? I wonder what happened to physical combat…tasing seems to be the new normal. I never thought much about poor Otto…guy doing nothing too irregular at convenience store gets killed by police violence. It’s obviously “excessive” by definition. He died.
Didn’t some evidence or some videos disappear? Wasn’t there somemenin jail who died after scuffles too?
Something looks wrong. Never had anything like this in the 20 years in Spokane I had. Something these past 5 years. What changed 5 years ago…or thereabouts? Huge surge of police violence. I don’t know how to explain it.
Most police are good examples of how to behave. Seems like there’s more that don’t. Statisically this can’t randomly happen in just a few years. Something to wonder about. One thing would be to get some leadership. Seems missing.
Liberty_Bell on January 22 at 6:33 a.m.
Vote Steve Tucker, Vote Confederate!
We, the people of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this constitution. (1889)
ARTICLE I
DECLARATION OF RIGHTS
SECTION 1 POLITICAL POWER. All political power is inherent in the people, and governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and are established to protect and maintain individual rights.
SECTION 2 SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. The Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land.
SECTION 3 PERSONAL RIGHTS. No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.
Political Power, the Ku Klux Act of 1871(42 USC 1983), with that Equal Protection Clause from the 14th Amendment, 1868, has always confused a Confederate.
“..As a long and violent abuse of Power, is generally the Means of calling the right of it in question and as the King of England hath undertaken in his own Right, to support the Parliment in what he calls Theirs, and as the good of the people of this Country are grievously oppressed by the Combination, they have an undoubted privilidge to enquire to reject the userpation of eiither…”
Thomas Paine “Common Sense”
“He has obstructed the Administration of Justice…He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction forien to our constitution, and unaknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Act’s of pretended Legislation…For protecting them by mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabants of these States;
In Congress Thomas Jefferson July 4th 1776
Vote Steve Tucker, Vote Confederate!
Liberty_Bell on January 22 at 6:50 a.m.
Calling for the Criminal Investigation, by the FBI!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013931948_mckayletter14m.html
It’s the same in every State!
lewis8457 on January 22 at 7:46 a.m.
Ozzie is calling the persons who left a bomb cowards. well he most likely knows that word quite well since he is has several of them in his ranks.
Including Hirzel.
berrybestfarm on January 22 at 8:14 a.m.
If Ozzie has not been misquoted he is telling us: 1. Police have special rights that allow them to be immune from prosecution when they violate citizen’s rights or kill them. 2. Citizens do not have the right to resist an arrest even when it is unlawfull. 3. If you feel threatened by someone you can kill them. 4. You can goad another into threatening you by hitting them with a baton to justify killing them, or at least the police can. The policies and laws leading to this rash of deadly force by police is now out in the open. It is up to We the People to fix it.
BitofBacon on January 22 at 8:43 a.m.
Before The Roy Larsen asks the question, who is Fitzpatrick?
recallstevetucker on January 22 at 8:56 a.m.
Tucker works for the rouge SPD officers. We the people need to demand justice. Too many have been killed for no reason, when will it end??
New face book~ become a friend and we can make a difference!!!
Recall Steve tucker at face book
Scoutster on January 22 at 8:56 a.m.
BitofBacon…
That’s just Daisy. She forgets things. I’m sure she meant “Kirkpatrick”.
Keep going Creach Family…for the sake of all of us. It’s time to invite Dershowitz or some other big guns to the party along with Breann Beggs.
The rule of Law (and competent, community centered investigation) needs to trump the rule of Tucker and the LE unions.
stvnbrwn54 on January 22 at 9:04 a.m.
Sad, sad, sad…
Anyone who know’s anything about cops and their “shields” (people like Tucker) knows the truth about stuff like this. It’s a bit like the Mafia investigating one of their own…and like 007, cops in Spokane County seem to have a license to kill these days. I’m not aware of how all this works, but for public safety reasons, someone outside, or a citizens review board of some kind needs to be formed so that unbiased investigations of this type of thing can be conducted. I smell a rat and the wind is blowing from the cops direction…this stinks!
Scoutster on January 22 at 9:14 a.m.
“There is no right to resist an unlawful arrest. If it’s an unlawful arrest, sue him later … but don’t fight him.”
What if you don’t survive long enough to sue?
Police are putting targets on themselves by their behavior, and that’s what’s chilling about this. I want to (and, until recently, did) feel safe having the police around.
Now, it’s the opposite. And they want to blame ME for that fear and suspicion of their BDUs. Go figger.
lewis8457 on January 22 at 9:44 a.m.
Our beef is with the Washington legislator here is the law as written in the Creach investigation documents.
word for word copy paste begin
“In sum, we hold that, although a person who is being unlawfully arrested has a right, as the trial court indicated in instruction 17, to use reasonable and proportional force to resist an attempt to inflict injury on him or her during the course of an arrest, that person may not use force against the arresting officers if he or she is faced only with a loss of freedom.” Valentine at 21.
This means that even a person who feels they are being
arrested unlawfully has no right to use force and must obey the officers commands and not resist.
end
There is folks the cops license to kill and our state representatives voted it in. Lisa Brown is my representative and she is as good at responding to emails as Mary Verner is.
The problem as i see with the law is it takes away our civil liberties. Basically this law would have made it ILLEGAL for Otto Zehm to fight back. And the law is why Deputy Hirzel can shoot someone point blank and get away with it.
Our police actions are a by product of this law. And Tucker likes to rest his elbows on it because it is easier.
THe Feds must know of this law, I wonder how they will get Thompson taking away Otto’s civil liberties to stick? Since it concerns the police Otto had no civil liberties. Or maybe this law was not in effect when they homicided Otto, murder sounds better but for those technical buffs it was a homicide.
So remember folks the minute you converse with a officer of the law you do not have any civil liberties. Be careful out there.
Frankly I will making the cross sign with my fingers and backing away slowly as not to spook them.
stvnbrwn54 on January 22 at 9:57 a.m.
I don’t think quoting the law or constitution amounts to much here, the recent examples of cops using gunslinger tactics is more about mindset and training than anything else. Spokane city and county cops seem to be unable to handle potentially threatening situations without resorting lethal force at the first opportunity. You could quote the constitution to the average cop around here until you’re blue in the face and they wouldn’t even know what you’re talking about.
This is about holding law enforcement leadership accountable and frankly, I’m amazed the public is so sedate about all this. Makes me think people in Spokane are simply throwing up their hands in surrender, hoping a trigger-happy cop doesn’t pull them over for a defective headlight or something… cuz the lady police chief, Mr. Ozzie…and Tucker…are perfectly okay with it if you end up like Mr. Creach.
Dazzeetrader11 on January 22 at 9:59 a.m.
The Chief of Police then! lol..the name is incidental. FBI awaits… Just too much death at the hands of the police.
Against a background of “Zero” deaths for years??……5 years ago.something changed. Ozzie? Kirkpatrick?..I don’t know but this number of deaths is outrageous.
Who left and who came? It’s very different in Spokane now when it comes to the police. If nothing else..I don’t think the citizens will trust them without a full outside investigation. And with so many deaths, people have a right to know the police they pay for are proper in their behavior.
Remember “Ramparts” in LA….people were ignored for years….and nobody seemed to care bcause the druggies/dealers were the ones murdered. This is different. Beware….
thevoice on January 22 at 10:00 a.m.
Would any of you want to be walking around town with a backpack lately? This whole situation makes me really nervous every time I see a Spd officer.
Ron_the_Cop on January 22 at 10:49 a.m.
Berrybestfarm,
To be correct it wasn’t Ozzie who made this statement, it was Tucker.
I have a very reliable source who was present at a speaking engagement when Tucker was running for office several terms ago that said he would never file against a police officer. Of course his office was somewhat backed into the Jay Olsen case.
For the reasoned folks who comment here no matter their political ideology and or law enforcement affiliation that know real change in police leadership is necessary esp. SPD, the immediate solution is to recall Tucker. I would have led such an effort with what I know about Tucker’s malfeasance in office but it really didn’t make good sense with the election approaching. However Tucker coasted to election last year because the local media did not report on his abuses in office, so there wasn’t sufficient public concern that would have tipped the election against him.
As I wrote Tucker before making this decision:
“CAUTION - the OIS reports as presented to you are incomplete and leave issues/questions unanswered and unaddressed. An informed decision whether this tragic shooting was criminally justified or not - is not possible at this point.
Why you didn’t send this OIS report immediately back to the OIS investigative team for further investigation is beyond me. Even though SPD sent several emails asking if you required any additional information, the general answer was from your office was no. Why? Perhaps as discovered by KREM2 in their report Cage Fight; the timing of your decision had more do to with your then pending election for County Prosecutor than a search for the truth as to what actually happened in this tragic event. Unfortunately the voters returned you to office because the two viable Republican candidates took each other out in the primary. Because this was a Republican year those Republican voters who voted a straight ticket return you to office. Apparently they did not notice the Republican Part did not endorse your reelection. I will continue to hold you accountable for your actions or more appropriately your inaction and lack of leadership in the law enforcement community as this County’s chief law enforcement officer.”
See link to my email in the earlier discussion thread yesterday:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/jan/21/deputy-wont-be-charged-shooting-death-pastor/?comments#c248864
[Continued]
Ron_the_Cop on January 22 at 10:50 a.m.
[Continued from above]
Hopefully Ozzie in his IA investigation will address those areas that were left unaddressed and unanswered by the SPD OIS investigation. This investigation was handed off prematurely do to the political realities of the pending election for County Prosecutor. See my link to the KREM2 Report “Cage Fight” in the link to my previous comment. Tucker was at the “Cage Fight” meeting with Sheriff Knezovich, Chief Kirkaptrick and her major crimes administrators. Obviously the investigators lost out and the report was delivered to Tucker INCOMPLETE. It’s ironic that now Tucker is grossing that he didn’t have the ME report and any analysis of it when SPD turned over the case to him for his review.
I would encourage all who are concerned about improving the quality of LE in our community join in the recall effort now apparently underway against Tucker:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100002054800286
While many of the recent OISs are perhaps technically legally justifiable in my opinion as some have suspected these may well have to do with training provided to law enforcement officers. Notwithstanding of course the Creach OIS because in my opinion will still don’t know the truth because of the INCOMPLETE investigation that Tucker did not question and or challenge.
My biases definitely lie with the rank and file. Question can you fault the officers involved when police leadership has provided faulty or inadequate training? Or in the case of SPD in the Zehm case won’t acknowledge that mistakes were made and or actively cover them up, act through changing policy, practice, procedure and training to prevent them from occurring in the future.
This is a fundamental role of police leadership. Read the discussions in the last thread why our leaders in Spokane City Government seemed to be incapable of making those changes in police leadership. Much of the armchair analysis here has to do with the actions of the rank in file when in reality the root of the problem lies with police leadership.
Det. Ron Wright (Retired)
bszottlinger on January 22 at 11:00 a.m.
ebyrnes:
Thank You for that ebyrnes, and as you are aware there are many other members of the community working to find an equitable process for review of these cases, many of whom have no ties to the Creach family, they include professionals, business owners, lawyers, retired police officers, and members of academia. Not one of these individuals has a hatred for law enforcement. As time goes on and those working in the background become apparent it will be more and more difficult for the over zealous law enforcement supporters and elected leaders to question credentials.
The process of review can end up being a good thing for all, or a battle royal, the choice is entirely up to the elected leaders and law enforcement officials.
Ron_the_Cop:
The reason I am interested in the forensic examination regarding blood evidence on the slippers and pants worn by Mr. Creach is to attempt to evaluate a correlation between the forensic evidence found on Hirzel’s pants and boots, and the observations of Detective Hammond quoted below in an email to Steve Tucker on October 4, 2010.
I have not been able to locate in the reports the email from Tucker to Hammond which should document the question asked (obviously in response to the Creach family and your work), nor can I find any follow up concerning blood spatter evidence on the slippers or the pants worn by Mr. Creach. I’m sure Detective Hammond has been trained in blood spatter identification, but I don’t know if he would qualify as an expert. I’m sure the state lab would have a blood spatter expert. Detective Hammond is drawing the conclusion from his observations that Creach’s blood found on Hirzel’s pants and boots was moving parallel and relatively close to the ground and had just began to arch downward. If I were in Mr. Tucker’s or Driscoll’s position I would have asked Hammond to submit the blood spatter evidence on both parties clothing to an expert in order to attempt to draw a likely conclusion regarding the position of both individuals at the time of the shooting. The explanation by Hammond of the blood spatter on Hirzel opens the door for a number of questions as to Creach’s body position at the time of the shooting, including being on his knee or knees. An analysis of both parties clothing for blood spatter by an expert MAY shed more light on body positions. But I can’t find where it has been done. As I mentioned earlier, I can’t understand why Detective Hammond when reviewing the crime scene photos was looking for blood on Creach’s slippers and noted that there was none on the bottom of the slippers. I am not a blood spatter expert but if there was blood spatter on Hirzel’s left pant leg and the two were standing facing each other as Hirzel stated I am having trouble with the blood spatter on the left pant leg when the entry wound was slightly right of mid chest and at a pretty good downward angle with Mr. Creach being 5’7” and Hirzel 5’6”. I would think there might be blood evidence on Creach’s slippers and perhaps the pants that may be important the fact that there wasn’t any may also be important, so please let me know if you have run across any of these reports or emails.
I’m encouraged by the Sheriff’s statements to the SR, I hope I’m not reading too much into them.
bszottlinger on January 22 at 11:04 a.m.
Sorry the quote didn’t copy, I will try and get it.
Bob_Knows on January 22 at 11:19 a.m.
It is too dangerous for a man in Spokane today. Shoot first and ask question later gangs of hired gun thugs rule the streets. Violence and killing is the daily news, only it happens so often that its not really news any more. Death and killing is a way of life and death in Spokane today.
lewis8457 on January 22 at 11:25 a.m.
stv it isn’t from the constitution it is a law in Washington state. just trying to describe to those concerned why Hirzel skated. Tucker told us the reason last august and here it is right in the Creach documents. After all the fancy investigations and delays there it is the same thing he told us last year.
i know it is a waste of time to explain to cops killing someone isn’t right.
bszottlinger on January 22 at 11:26 a.m.
Here is the quote from the email.
“Regarding the blood on deputy Hirzel’s pants. DNA testing confirmed that the blood was Mr. Creach’s. It consisted of a few drops or “spatters” on his lower left pant leg and boot. The spatter showed directional from front to back and could have occurred several ways, a couple of which include being near Mr. Creach as he fell, (which Deputy Hirzel was), or from blood falling on the ground and spattering outward which is the most likely reason because the spatter showed that the blood was traveling at a very slight downward angle when it struck his pant leg and boot. In other woeds it appeared as if the spatter was moving nearly parallel and relatively close to the ground and had just began to arch downward when it collected on his clothing. Hirzel’s left leg would have been forward in a right handed shooting stance.”
lewis8457 on January 22 at 11:28 a.m.
Brad can you explain to me how the fed can bring Thompson to trial for violating Otto’s civil liberties if in fact the law i posted above is true?
Am i reading that right? when Thompson attacked Otto, Otto at that moment lost his civil liberty rights and was at the full disposal of officer Thompson regardless what Thompson did to him?
bszottlinger on January 22 at 12:09 p.m.
Lewis:
I think I understand your question. You are questioning why the Federal Government was able to bring a CRV case against Thompson when the State Law appears to protect Hirzel in this situation. In essence the Federal Law trumps the State Law in the case of a CRV. Please don’t hold your breath waiting for the Federal Government to jump in to the Creach fiasco, there is not enough evidence to establish a CRV case at this point and may never be. Keep in mind that a lot of leg work was done and evidence discovered by Breean Beggs and others during the civil litigation which came to the attention of the Feds. There are many hoops the FBI and the US Attorney must jump through to bring a CRV case. I am sure that the happenings in Spokane are not going unnoticed but at this point jurisdiction can not be established. It saddens me when I occasionally talk to local federal officials and they comment that local law enforcement is “having its problems”. I could translate that for you but I won’t.
One thing I have noticed with respect to the Washington State Law unlike some other States is that there is no statue that protects an individuals civil rights unless the issue involves a denial based on race, creed, color, handicap etc. and violation of those statues is only a misdemeanor.
I hope that helped.
Ron_the_Cop on January 22 at 12:09 p.m.
BSZ,
Your preaching to the choir here re the blood evidence at the scene. There is really very little discussion/analysis in the reports re this blood evidence. The most I’ve seen is in the two supplement reports by Det. Hamond that were completed in late Sept. and the beginning of Oct. after the OIS report was referred to Tucker.
Tucker’s office was very quiet re requiring any further investigation by SPD. The email you speak of where Det. Hamond is reporting to Tucker is the only one of substance.
I concur an expert in blood evidence should have been sought to review all of the scene evidence. Such an expert analysis may have been able to put to rest the possibility that the body was moved and or the relative positioning between Creach and Dep. Hirzel at the time the fatal shot was fired. These are those pesky little details that were not included in the investigation as provided to Tucker.
Again this is why I say the investigation as given to Tucker was INCOMPLETE. Further in my opinion Tucker condoned, tolerated and facilitated this OIS being released to him prematurely. This all had to do with the pending election and had nothing to do with seeking the truth in this tragic incident.
I too hope Sheriff Knezovich will be a man of his word and during his investigation that will now take place, actively pursue all of these areas that we both know we left unaddressed/ unanswered in this investigation by SPD and Tucker.
misjustice on January 22 at 12:29 p.m.
*********put to rest the possibility that the body was moved*******
The body WAS moved. The paramedics said they moved him. They moved him to performed CPR & other medical emergency responses. Also, in the report it was stated an officer moved Creach’s head to help clear a breathing path.
bszottlinger on January 22 at 12:31 p.m.
Jumpin Jimminy, Gramma where did you read that?
bszottlinger on January 22 at 12:34 p.m.
Oooops!
misjustice on January 22 at 1:10 p.m.
Read the report…………
http://media.spokesman.com/documents/2011/01/hirzel_shooting_review.pdf
saveyourtatas on January 22 at 1:18 p.m.
Detective Ron Wright, I heard through the grapevine that Shannon Sullivan is starting a recall? True ?
Good Lord, I think I know 150 people on my email list that would want to know more. Especially the guys over at
www.SpokaneCOPWATCH.com
(David and Belinda/Mike/Terri etc)
How did things go at Ozzie Knezovichs thing with Kevin Parker?
bszottlinger on January 22 at 1:43 p.m.
Okay Gramma, you are right!
dagney on January 22 at 1:55 p.m.
Several points. 1) Why does our law say that the police must have a malicious or evil intent to be prosecuted? So if an officer shoots someone out of fear or by accident, or whatever, the victim has no recourse? 2) Tucker says that “as soon as someone is alarmed or threatened by it, you have to put it down.” In the face of an intruder or criminal as well? 3) About the unmarked car: was the officer in plain clothes? If so, how would Creach ~know~ he was a cop? 4) If Tucker is concerned about the lack of an autopsy report, then the report is ~incomplete~ and should not be accepted. Also, how do we know Hirzel struck Creach on the knee??? We have only Hirzel’s word. Citizens of Spokane: this is unacceptable.
Also, in other most recent shooting where a man had a knife, why are local police employing “War on Drug” tactics and breaking down doors? “No Knock.” Boy, we sure are all treated like criminals - or worse. I don’t know how all these things jive with our civil liberties - not well from my perspective.
Ron_the_Cop on January 22 at 1:59 p.m.
Gramma,
Yes you are correct. The issue however is the how far the body was potentially moved re the blood evidence. This distance appears to be greater than any repositioning of Creach by the medical personnel. That’s why a blood expert needs to review the photos and evidence. There may be a reasonable explanation of the blood evidence that has nothing to do with the moving of the body after death.
misjustice on January 22 at 2:02 p.m.
There is nothing in the report that says how far it was moved. So the “appearance that it was greater than repositioning” is just in the imagination of those reading the report.
Please show me where it says it was & I will apologize for making a false statement. But, so far, I believe I am right.
Thank you BSZ. Despite what most think, I can read & comprehend!
bszottlinger on January 22 at 2:10 p.m.
“Thank you BSZ. Despite what most think, I can read & comprehend”
Never doubted it for a NY second!
lewis8457 on January 22 at 2:14 p.m.
thank you brad for the answer
bszottlinger on January 22 at 2:44 p.m.
Gramma:
I can’t copy the report and paste it in here because of the format I have it in. Perhaps Ron can. I will tell you that Detective Hammond in his report is trying to assess the body movement from crime scene photographs of the blood pooling in relation to the body. In other cases I’ve reviewed it is common to see a report documenting measurements of the pooling and spatter in relationship to fixed points, the body, and other evidence at the scene. I can’t find where that was done here. The Sheriff’s people may be able to send the photos for forensic exam to determine the distances based on the photos. Detective Hammond concludes from the photos that the movement was the result of EMS to Mr. Creach. He could be correct but to me the movement appears to be more then just from EMS. This is just one of several issues a number of people have a concern regarding, and it would be nice to see an effort made by law enforcement beyond what has been done to date and prior to the civil litigation where an expert will likely testify as to the body movement based on forensic analysis of the crime scene photos.
saveyourtatas on January 22 at 3:12 p.m.
Ron-the-cop,
-
Is there an effort under way ? (“RECALL TUCKER”?)
I know a number of people that would be all over that. I think it would be legally complicated, and maybe even a longshot, but I bet it would have a number of very motivated and devastated families that would volunteer time and money. I know personally about 7 or 8 lawyers that really despise Tucker. One of them works for him too…Bugbee…..Where is Dave Stevens now?
Any news ?
As a middle aged woman, I don’t do a ton of activist stuff, but I would certainly volunteer some time and donate a hundred or more. (email me if you agree BellaVida22@gmail.com).
Other than TaTa’s, I do go by “Belle” (hubby calls me that)
Ron_the_Cop on January 22 at 3:20 p.m.
Gamma,
I don’t really want to tip my hand much before I complete my report/analysis for Sheriff Knezovich but since Brad asked and this is becoming to be in general circulation anyway:
Det. Hollenbeck noted in his report (Page 033):
“A small amount of blood from the wound drained down around the neck and on to the ground. It appeared the decedent had been moved, apparently by those applying medical aid [My emphasis]. A similar dual pooling of blood was located approximately 2 to 3 feet northeast of the decedents head. The small pools of blood were marked by placard C . . .”
I did not see any mention by any of the involved deputies and or fire personnel moving the body. I’ve read all of the interviews with the medical personnel that were on scene.
None mention moving the body with the exception of AMR Paramedic Andrew Gray said (Page 153):
“Gray stated the paramedics working on Creach were trying to intubate him and were having a difficult time in doing it. Gray stated he assisted by taking Creach by both arms, lifting him up so his head would drop into a neutral position . . .”
misjustice on January 22 at 3:28 p.m.
My point is many on here are trying to insinuate the police moved the body to cover up a crime.
There is NOTHING to indicate any such thing happened. Paramedics were doing their jobs & if he needed to be moved, they apparently were the ones that moved the body.
bszottlinger on January 22 at 3:41 p.m.
Gramma:
We know the body was moved, we just don’t know by whom or exactly how far. We also know that Deputy Hirzel’s CPR mask and gloves used to handle bodies and an injured person was not collected on the night of the shooting. We also know that when investigators asked him what he did with them Hirzel told them that he had thrown them away in the trash. In that regard the only insinuation I am making is that those items should have been collected on the night of the shooting.
saveyourtatas on January 22 at 4:10 p.m.
There is plenty to indicate the body was moved.
The Creach family has known this for 3 months
saveyourtatas on January 22 at 4:13 p.m.
Brad ……. ZOTT……
Once again I am reminded of Superman.
“KNEEL BEFORE ZOTT” (Reeve bows down) (-: hehehehe
bszottlinger on January 22 at 4:25 p.m.
Tatas:
It’s Ron Wright that is doing all the work, not me. The last thing that kneeled before me was a dog then it bit me.
saveyourtatas on January 22 at 5:21 p.m.
hahahahah
Ron just emailed me. He really works hard !
Excellent writer (Shook too….Tim Connor, etc)
bszottlinger on January 22 at 9:14 p.m.
Gramma:
I want to thank you for prompting me to read the Case Review done by Mr. Driscoll more thoroughly. This is the review presented by Driscoll to Steve Tucker for Tucker to make his decision. Boy there were a lot of things that he listed in his review that I question but one thing in particular just slapped me in the face. Driscoll reports that Dr Howard (The ME) stated to Detective Hammond in an interview that “two parallel marks that ran roughly parallel to the femur could have been caused by the inside edges of the pants seem if a Baton strike were delivered along the seem”. The big problem with that statement by Driscoll in a document used in the decision making process is that he neglects for some reason, or maybe he never read it, to document that a WSP lab report signed by William Schneck on 10/25/10 eliminates, based on forensic testing and examination, that the marks Dr Howard was referring to were not from the pants seem. I wish I could show you the forensic report and the photographs that document the findings but because of the format I can’t…sorry. I can however tell you that WSP lab report number is 210-000970 if you want to PDR it.
This “Review Report “of Driscoll’s has really got some problems beyond just this. I don’t know if its because he didn’t get all of the reports, or he just picked out what he thought was appropriate.
Reviewing that State Lab Report brought back slipper memories again. Along with Mr. Creach’s pants Detective Hammond submitted Hirzel’s left and right boots for DNA and blood identification but no blood spatter analysis, ands Hirzel’s pants were not submitted. I hope they didn’t misplace Mr. Creach’s slippers, they did submit them to the lab and its just a case of me not having the report.
HEAR OUR VOICE ********* WHERE ARE THE SLIPPERS
bszottlinger on January 22 at 9:22 p.m.
It’s late for me Gramma, I didn’t write that very well above. In essence the lab report eliminates the parallel marks on Creach’s body as having come from a Baton strike at the pants seem like Dr. Howard described. Bad on Driscoll, if he reported on Dr. Howard’s COULD HAVE BEEN opinion he should have also included evidence to the contrary and he didn’t.
lewis8457 on January 22 at 11:47 p.m.
since he didn’t include that evidence does that mean the idea the investigations are all one sided start to look like they may hold some water?
bszottlinger on January 23 at 9:11 a.m.
Lewis:
Here is the problem with the way the OID’s are investigated in Spokane. The investigators don’t approach the investigation from a neutral mindset and don’t anticipate what questions have to be answered to demonstrate that the investigation was conducted in a fair and balanced way. As an example; On 9/23/10 Detective Hammond met with Dr. Howard and asked him about the marks on Creach’s left leg. Hammond in his report documents only that Dr. Howard stated that the marks COULD HAVE BEEN caused by the TIP of a Baton. I don’t know if Detective Hammond asked the appropriate questions and didn’t document all the answers to the questions or what happened. But in a case like this he should have asked the good Dr.; “ Can you tell me what caused those marks?” Having questioned many ME’s I can tell you with some degree of certainty that Dr. Howard would say something like “There are a number of ways he could have received those marks.” The follow-up question would be. “Can you tell me some of the ways Mr. Creach could have received those marks?” In this case I would think Dr. Howard would have responded, “ They COULD HAVE BEEN caused by the strike from the TIP of a Baton, they COULD HAVE BEEN caused by his leg being in the gravel, they COULD HAVE BEEN caused by an number of things” The follow-up question then would be; “Dr. can you tell me with a reasonable degree of medical certainty that the marks were caused by a Baton strike?” The Dr. would likely answer “No”. The next question would be; “Can you tell me exactly when those marks were made on Mr. Creach’s body, or provide me with a likely time frame?” I suggest to you that the Dr. would answer “No”. These are question that will be asked of Dr. Howard by the plaintiff’s attorney in a civil litigation. The plaintiffs attorney would then put Detective Hammond on the stand and ask questions of Hammond like. “Why did you only report that Dr. Howard said the marks could have been caused by a Baton? It doesn’t look very good does it Lewis.
I think what we well find is that the Sheriffs people will go back and talk to Dr. Howard at length about this issue. It’s just a shame it wasn’t done in the beginning.
What happens when you don’t ask the right questions, and only report something you feel is consistent with the officers statements you open the door for people like you Lewis to question the validity of the investigation. There are no documents that I find that Mr. Driscoll, or Mr. Tucker made any effort to direct the Detective to re-interview Dr. Howard and determine just exactly what he could testify to, nor is there any documentation that Driscoll or Tucker contacted Dr. Howard and interviewed him regarding what he could specifically testify to. Yet Mr. Driscoll who I would assume has interviewed and questioned ME’s in the past makes no effort to clarify in his report to Tucker what the testimony of Dr. Howard would be.
Gramma:
I’m trying to figure out a way to get you that lab report so you can read it and look at the photos.
Ron_the_Cop on January 23 at 2:22 p.m.
Brad, Gramma and others,
I too actually have this WSP forensic report that was signed by WSP Forensic Scientist Wm Schneck on 10-25-10:
http://tinyurl.com/4b6u6da
I’ll let Brad’s comment stand but won’t offer my opinion yet. I’m just providing this document so others can read and then read Tucker’s report prepared by Driscoll so you can make your own conclusions as to how thorough Tucker’s review of the investigation/evidence was.
KREM2 ran with the story of Tucker’s new evidence here:
Prosecutor releases new information about night Creach was shot
http://tinyurl.com/4nlnssh
Here’s Tucker’s report:
http://tinyurl.com/45wr5dq
Readers are free to view my email I sent to Tucker at the beginning of this week with this caution:
CAUTION - the OIS reports as presented to you are incomplete and leave issues/questions unanswered and unaddressed. An informed decision whether this tragic shooting was criminally justified or not - is not possible at this point.
http://tinyurl.com/4hrat8h
For those interested in doing something consider linking to this Facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/recallstevetucker
bszottlinger on January 23 at 4:36 p.m.
Gramma:
There you go, and before you correct me, and I’m sure you will, it was Detective Hollenbeck who submitted the evidence to the State Lab, the results were directed to Detective Hammond.
Thanks for doing that Mr. Wright.