Spokane7
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June 12, 2011 in City
‘Sovereigns’ gaining attention in Spokane area
Adrian B. Shannon is framed by the Rotary Fountain in downtown Spokane earlier this month. He is among a growing number of people who question the legitimacy of federal, state and local government agencies.
(Full-size photo)
Deputies were prepared for the worst as they stood by in a Spokane County courtroom earlier this month during routine hearings for mostly low-level felonies.
Their focus was on one of the more benign cases – possession and distribution of marijuana.
But it wasn’t the nature of the allegations that got their attention. It was the defendant, a self-proclaimed “sovereign” who doesn’t consider himself a citizen of the United States even though he was born and raised here.
Adrian B. Shannon, 30, is among a growing number of people who question the legitimacy of federal, state and local government agencies and employ a series of legal maneuvers they believe exempt them from driver’s licenses and birth certificates, paying taxes, or even criminal charges.
“People call it a movement, but it’s individuals, literally sovereigns, that are all learning, ‘Hey we don’t have to put up with these ridiculous laws, because we are the government,’ ” Shannon said.
As the number of sovereigns increases, government officials are taking notice and trying to prepare, particularly after the shooting deaths of two police officers in Arkansas by a sovereign follower. Although no regional breakdowns are available, experts estimate the sovereign movement has about 300,000 followers nationally, and its popularity – fueled by seminars and videos – is growing.
The FBI considers sovereigns to be potential anti-government terrorists.
“It’s certainly something we’re definitely concerned about,” said Frank Harrill, agent in charge at the FBI’s Spokane office. “I don’t want to criminalize the belief system. But clearly, individuals who espouse and adhere to this ideology have in the past and continue in some instances to act out violently.”
Last month, the Spokane County Sheriff’s Office held a training seminar on hate crimes that included a brief presentation on the sovereign movement.
Shannon contends officials are overreacting. In his court hearing recently, he managed to irritate a Superior Court judge with a series of questions, but he never became violent in the heavily secured courtroom. Sovereign beliefs, though complicated and unusual, are rooted in history and don’t call for violence, said Shannon.
Others disagree.
“These people can be bloody dangerous,” said Mark Potok, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center, a Montgomery, Ala.-based nonprofit that tracks extremist groups.
Reliance on ‘paper terrorism’
Law enforcement officials from across the region gathered at the sheriff’s training center in Spokane Valley last month for an all-day seminar by Joe Roy, an investigator with the Southern Poverty Law Center. The focus was hate groups, which Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich said are on the rise locally, but it included a talk on the sovereign movement.
Roy showed photos of local residents believed to be involved. The training has drawn heavy criticism from ultraconservative groups worried about government profiling, Knezovich said.
State Rep. Matt Shea attended the seminar, Knezovich said.
Knezovich added he’s long known of the presence of sovereigns in the region. Just last month, he was subpoenaed to appear in traffic court by a sovereign contesting a speeding ticket. Knezovich said he simply was asked under oath whether he had taken an oath of office, which he testified that he had. The speeding ticket was upheld.
“It was just the oddest thing I’ve ever had to do,” he said.
Knezovich had been advised of Shannon and his courtroom tactics before Shannon drew the ire of Superior Court Judge Michael Price on June 1. The jail’s transport team requested extra security for Shannon’s hearing.
In the courtroom, Shannon questioned the judge and the legitimacy of the court docket after being asked to approach the podium for his arraignment.
“I’m not the Mr. Shannon named on the docket,” Shannon said in court, referring to a common contention among sovereigns that names written in all capital letters – as they’re commonly listed in court documents – represent a government-assigned, corporate entity rather than an individual.
“Well, whatever your name is, sir, get up here,” Price said.
“May I retain all my rights?” Shannon asked.
“Sir, get up here or you’re going to jail,” Price said. The unusual exchange was brief – prosecutors have not yet filed charges against Shannon, so Price told him he may be summoned to court later. He and friends left the courthouse without incident as deputies followed.
Shannon, who says he has always paid his taxes, believes he can beat criminal charges by employing a series of legal maneuvers that some experts on extremist beliefs call “paper terrorism” – filing liens and other documents against everyone involved in their arrest and prosecution. It essentially involves using nuisance tactics to make administration of legal proceedings against sovereigns so cumbersome that government officials deem it too costly and time-consuming to continue.
Shannon, for example, argues that he’s operating under admiralty law, which is supposed to govern interactions between private and international entities. He filed a 35-page, self-prepared document in Spokane County Superior Court shortly after his May 17 arrest that demands a $1.9 billion payment in silver from court and law enforcement officials involved in the search of his Spokane Valley apartment and his subsequent arrest. The document states that failure to respond is considered an acceptance of the contract.
Shannon said he doesn’t expect to be paid. Rather, he expects the document will lead to his charges being dismissed, if they are even filed.
Otherwise, the county could find itself spending time and money defending against a breach-of-contract suit he plans to file, regardless of the case’s legal merit.
“I basically plan on costing the city and county so much money that it’s not economical to pursue this,” Shannon said.
Experts say the filing has no legal basis. Superior Court Judge Sam Cozza, who authorized the search of Shannon’s apartment, said he hasn’t given the filing much thought.
Dealing with sovereigns in court “isn’t that much different from what we do with anybody who’s a little bit excitable or different,” Cozza said.
Contact with sovereigns
Last month’s law enforcement training seminar on sovereigns included a video by the Southern Poverty Law Center featuring West Memphis, Ark., Police Chief Bob Paudert, whose son and another officer were shot to death during a traffic stop involving a father and son who espoused sovereign beliefs. The incident was featured in a recent “60 Minutes” report.
The driver of the car, Jerry Kane, had handed the officer a fake sovereign driver’s license. Paudert said his son and the other officer were confused by the document. Had they been trained on how to recognize so-called sovereign citizens, they may have been more aware, Paudert said in the DVD.
Shannon, however, said he doesn’t believe in violence.
“I’m a nice guy – I don’t mean any harm to anyone,” he said. “I don’t want to come across as crazy.” He said his views could take days to explain, but that they are based on history and legal research.
He criticized the recent “60 Minutes” report, which included an interview with a self-proclaimed sovereign citizen who said he believes he can shoot police officers and politicians. Shannon and friends compare the fear of violence among sovereigns with the belief that all Muslims are terrorists – it’s a stereotype that isn’t true.
Shannon said he began researching sovereign beliefs and law after serving six years in the Air Force, including time in Iraq. “I saw what our government is doing and I saw what it’s capable of, and I can’t be a part of that,” he said. “I’m not anti-government. I’m anti-corporate government.”
Knezovich said he realizes not everyone espousing sovereign beliefs is prone to violence. But he said their association with a movement that has produced cop killers raises eyebrows.
“In any group you have your extreme elements, be it left, right or center,” he said. “It’s usually the extreme element that gives the entire group a bad name. It’s just like any other situation: One person may not be violent, but the next person may decide to be violent.”
Potok, of the Southern Poverty Law Center, said his organization researched sovereigns following the Arkansas police slayings and has distributed more than 75,000 DVDs on the movement across the country.
“We just felt that cops were in danger and we should try to do something,” he said. “What happened was we got an absolutely amazing level of demand for that video. Virtually every police department we’ve talked to has had some type of contact with sovereign citizens.”
Human trafficking suspects released 
drywitt99 on June 12 at 5:53 a.m.
“Sovereigns.”
A new name for the familiar old faces of the lunatic right.
Timothy McVeigh……the bastards from Westboro Baptist…..The John Birch Society…..Aryan Nation and similar white supremacist groups….
In short…..the target demographic for Beck…and Limbaugh….and FOX News.
Orphan on June 12 at 6:36 a.m.
Thje Sovereigns are way out there no doubt. Drywitt I dont believe the aryan nation or the John Birch Society have much to do with the movement, please cite so we can sort this out.
The Southern Poverty Law Center is a far left wing organazation, I question why the Spokane Sheriffs Office would hire such a radical organazation to teach them any thing. This is kind of like hiring La Raza to teach immigration law, your going to get a biased side of the story.
SPLC has done a lot of good in the past but has morphed into something it should not be. SPLC names returning vets, believers in the 2nd Amendment, gun owners and several other common groups as potential terrorists.
Ozzie this makes me question your judgement one more time.
Orphan on June 12 at 6:37 a.m.
The Sovereigns are way out there no doubt. Drywitt I dont believe the aryan nation or the John Birch Society have much to do with the movement, please cite so we can sort this out.
The Southern Poverty Law Center is a far left wing organazation, I question why the Spokane Sheriffs Office would hire such a radical organazation to teach them any thing. This is kind of like hiring La Raza to teach immigration law, your going to get a biased side of the story.
SPLC has done a lot of good in the past but has morphed into something it should not be. SPLC names returning vets, believers in the 2nd Amendment, gun owners and several other common groups as potential terrorists.
Ozzie this makes me question your judgement one more time.
idahocity on June 12 at 6:40 a.m.
this silly craze didn’t start in the u.s. its been going on in other countries for a long time.
england has one of those crazy old cooks. she runs around trying to prorogue a lawfully elected parliament. she tries to set up her own courts and have her own police departments and military. she’s a crazy old lady that elizabeth windsor or saxe-coburg gotha whatever alias she is goiing by now.
wait there’s another one in the netherlands, a self proclaimed queen, Beatrix.
how many of these loons are there?
lewis8457 on June 12 at 7:22 a.m.
The focus was hate groups, which Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich said are on the rise locally
The only hate groups we have in Spokane I know of are the SPD and SVPD.
jpintler on June 12 at 7:30 a.m.
drywitt99, I do believe that you have posted the dumbest comment in the history of the internet.
lewis8457 on June 12 at 7:38 a.m.
So if sovereign means they don’t have to follow the laws, does that mean all of our police are sovereign? They don’t have to follow the law. Hell they have stickers on their cars to prevent them from being pulled over for traffic violations. They can kill at will, so if the police are concerned about sovereign maybe they should look in the mirror.
Isn’t that what our whole government does sovereign? Where is the trials for the bankers who stole all that money? Why is Scott Creaches murderer still on the police force, why are 7 officers on the job after beating a disabled man to death?
Why because they are all sovereigns and they don’t want any of us getting the idea this is actually our country too.
So they will kill at will and try to tell us with a straight face they are upholding the laws.
MrBloggy on June 12 at 7:42 a.m.
You can be a sovereign
but move away
we would suggest
sans the benefit of the US
military
North Korea
Taliban-controlled regions
Afghanistan
Iran
If you stay
stay out of national forests
parks
surrender your voting rights
(sorry Ron Paul for losing base)
you get no benefits of America
please
if you stay
live in a trailer isolated
on some arid plateau
plot of private land
you own
cinderblocks
and sage
watch TV
stalk the internet
a foaming lunatic
is your right
to be
but please sovereign
stay
the complete hell
away
from me
Ninch on June 12 at 7:54 a.m.
Ironic… that ‘sovereigns’ file liens and paperwork that are governed/administered by government. If true ‘sovereign’ why utilize/become part of the system they are protesting?
Ninch on June 12 at 7:59 a.m.
Think about this… Mr. Bloggy… an authentic ‘sovereign’ would not “own” private land because that too is a ‘social construction’ of government sanctioned legal rights. Recognizing private vs. public land rights is antithesis to a pure ‘sovereign’ viewpoint.
MrBloggy on June 12 at 8:08 a.m.
well, MrB was using private property as a literary device to avoid stating his true opinion which is more along the lines of sovereigns residing in internment camps or mental health treatment facilities.
eagleproducer on June 12 at 8:11 a.m.
Calling the Southern Poverty Law Center a “far left wing” outfit would be like saying jpinter has operating brain cells.
It always amazes me that organizations dedicated to spreading the promises contained in the constitution to EVERYONE are deemed “far left wing” by the class/race of people who have always enjoyed those protections.
mejdae on June 12 at 8:14 a.m.
These people are anarchists. They don’t belong in our society. They can move into the deep woods and live as trappers and hunters. Complex societies require at least some laws that supercede the individual’s right to behave however they want whenever they want.
The paper never should have drawn attention to such a small group of ignorant, romantic, and ultimately dangerous-to-the-rest-us wackos.
Albert on June 12 at 8:18 a.m.
To over react is not the needed response in this matter. In the Jimmy Carter years, “very bad government”, like what we are now experiencing from “both sides of the aisle” led to a very similar movement. People ceased in filing their taxes until Ronald Regan offered a national plea to please get back on tract. The leader of the movement was prosecuted, along with the group’s hierarchy, and given 10+ years in the federal pen. End of story.
The point here is do not over react and allow this “movement” to spiral out of control. If left alone, it will die a natural death. People do this, as per Shannon’s story, out of frustration. He saw the countless destruction and death in the Iraq “war” - and for what reason??? The same holds true with Libya, Pakistan, Yemen, and the ongoing process in Iraq. All for what???
Carter placed the U.S. into bankruptcy. Bush and now Obamation have done the same, to the point wherein we as a nation have begun to default on our debt. This group is a reaction to this frustration…noting more.
Leave them alone - ignore them - no press time - and they will die out of natural causes.
dkerns on June 12 at 8:26 a.m.
mejdae—you forget that one can not hunt or trap without government permission.
In fact, there is very little anyone can do without government permission.
leekinny on June 12 at 8:35 a.m.
Everything you would want to know about the truly disloyal SOVEREIGN CITIZENS MOVEMENT from the Southern Poverty Law Center…
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement
How many of these extremists exist in conservative groups from the Tea Party to anti-immigrant? Should the members of these Conservative groups, who see themselves as loyal Americans, out these people?
pjc on June 12 at 8:42 a.m.
Sovereigns - another word for crazy.
Crazy people come from the right and the left. They always have and always will.
leekinny on June 12 at 8:45 a.m.
Albert :
Untrue.
The nation dutifully paid down the debt from WWII, helping the GI’s, building Europe, and the creation of the interstate highway system, until the presidency of tax raising, borrow and spend, deficits don’t matter Reagan came along. The trickle down (voodoo) economics are the direct reason for the state of are economy.
I know the extreme political correctness of the goose-stepping right keeps them blind on this.
leekinny on June 12 at 8:47 a.m.
our
mejdae on June 12 at 8:47 a.m.
dkerns:
Actually, I did consider that. My point is more focused on society/civilization than actual laws. I understand that underlying point of the anarchists’ positions, but they deny some fundamental realities of the situation regarding cities, commerce, huge populations, etc.
If they want to opt out, then they really need to opt out. Go to the further reaches of the wilderness. Yes, technically they will be breaking some laws (not that they seem to care) but they will be doing so in a way that doesn’t render their existence in this more geographically concentrated society completely hypocritical and potentially dangerous for the rest of us. And yes, someday the government may come calling … and it may get ugly. We’ve seen it before. That is what you risk, though, when you opt out.
There is a HUGE philosophical underpinning to this entire situation. None of us are truly free. Nor is there any indication in any of human history that it possible for us to be. If not a democracy governed by the will of the majority, then the physically strongest and best-armed will make the rules. Too many intricacies to be debated here.
norsseman on June 12 at 9:04 a.m.
Just another group trying to get out of paying taxes. Is there head so thick they don’t understand this country needs paved roads, fire departements, emergency services, etc ?
These are the people that the government needs to come down hard on with hefty fines, not issueing a $87 dollar ticket to an unofficial volunteer on the Fish Lake trail for not having his dog on a leash when there is no one else on the trail and no cars in the parking lot!
mikeln on June 12 at 9:09 a.m.
Looked in my box of cocoa puffs this morning and didn’t find a drivers licence. I agree with majdae, none of us is truly free and there is nothing we can do about it. The best we can do is to fly under the radar by not breaking laws and bringing attention to ourselves. The problem lies with the number of laws, some stupid as hell. We have enough laws to choke us all but congress keeps on making more and more, most to protect corporations from taking resposibility for thier actions that make them huge profits but harm the rest of us. Guess these elected officials have to do something to keep on getting a paycheck.
D Statler on June 12 at 9:29 a.m.
I find it interesting when the prosecutors need things settled their way.Michael Price is their go to guy. I am very dis- heartened with his lack of judgement and interpretation of our constitution. These judges themselves are the reason movements like this germinate in our so-called FREE society. These perverted anti-government views are more and more common and will increase as the rich get richer and poverty runs rampant in America. I truely wonder who will be protecting who when America finally defaults.
Spokane_Citizen on June 12 at 9:31 a.m.
The SR needs to do a followup story (in about a year or so) about how this young man’s crackpot quest ends. Not that there is any doubt to most people how this thing will play out….but you can bet there are readers who will only take away the worm-rotten kernals of idiot sovereign political theory. Those readers need to see that he will have managed, if he persists in the application of these twisted beliefs to the management of his life, to make his situation much much worse than if he just complied with the law as it currently exists….or worked through the legislative process to change the ones he doesn’t like. Sovereign sophistry is a fool’s game.
force_vector on June 12 at 9:58 a.m.
Guy like this are funny. They only believe in this stuff so long as it serves their purpose of the moment. I wonder if he’d still be a sovereign if someone broke into his house, stole all his crap, and then said “hey pal, property laws don’t apply to me”? Maybe he drives one of those sweet Tesla Roadsters. I’d like to have me one of those.
oneanddone on June 12 at 10:18 a.m.
“Sovereigns” are nothing more than your standard every day freeloader. Has nothing to do with freedom at all. Just being a cheapskate. Sort of like those other “Sovereigns” living on reservations. We’d all be better off with neither.
force_vector on June 12 at 10:37 a.m.
it’s too bad oneanddone wasn’t applicable to your first time posting on the Spokesman.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on June 12 at 10:41 a.m.
I see the tea baggers have a new name. They probably finally figured out what tea bagging means.
SpokyDaBear on June 12 at 11:09 a.m.
Raise you hand if when you see Mr Booger’s long dumb poem post you just scroll down over it to the next post without reading whatever the frustrated poet vomited up with his pen today..
gmorton on June 12 at 11:27 a.m.
eagleproducer wrote,
“It always amazes me that organizations dedicated to spreading the promises contained in the constitution to EVERYONE are deemed ‘far left wing’ by the class/race of people who have always enjoyed those protections.”
Hmmm. To just what “promises” are you alluding, eagle?
Just curious . . .
idahocity on June 12 at 11:31 a.m.
i like mr b. or maybe i’m so obtuse i don’t really understand what he’s trying to say.
but i enjoy all the regulars points of view even if we butt heads on issues.
gmorton on June 12 at 11:36 a.m.
mejdae wrote,
“There is a HUGE philosophical underpinning to this entire situation. None of us are truly free. Nor is there any indication in any of human history that it possible for us to be.”
It depends upon the answer to the question, “Free from what?,” mejdae. If you mean “free from the laws of Nature,” or “free from the necessity to observe certain rules when you live in a social setting,” then you are right.
But if you just mean, “Free to live your life as you choose, as long as you are not injuring anyone else,” then you are wrong.
“If not a democracy governed by the will of the majority, then the physically strongest and best-armed will make the rules.”
Oh, no. There are more options than those. E.g., a constitutional republic, as the US was designed to be.
Greycobra on June 12 at 11:42 a.m.
The title to this post is so misleading. Sovereigns do believe in the law. They just opt out of the corporate codes which enforce ridiculous rules.
True Sovereigns believe in common law. They believe that unless there is a victim, there is no crime. This belief has precedent since biblical times. Why do we follow these codes which mandate tougher sentences for pot than assault? It’s all about money. Sovereigns repudiate this stupidity, and try to legally disentangle themselves from the rules foisted on them by the corporate government.
Don’t believe that the government is a corporation? Go to dnb.com. Search keywords such as Spokane, and check out how many government incorporations are listed.
Another reason to get away from the corporate government is the fact that the 14th amendment forbids the citizens from questioning the governments debt. Our debt is enormous and growing. Our “representatives” can’t even figure out a budget, and are allowing the citizens to shoulder the debt with no hope for relief. Read about what is happening to Greece if you have any doubt about what’s going to happen here.
mejdae on June 12 at 11:45 a.m.
@gmorton: I was referring to your first set of definitions when I posted. I don’t disagree with your second definition. The problem comes with people’s interpretation of “as long as you are not injuring anyone else”. For some, a stranger stepping mere foot on private property is injury and can be dealt with aggressively. For others, harm begins at the skin. This where many of our laws become necessary. There must be an agreement of some sort, mediated by some sort of structure beyond the individual, or chaos reigns and the trappings of organized society fall away (for good or ill, I’ll leave that up to each person to decide). Not to mention that property of any sort has no meaning without law or force to back it up.
MrBloggy on June 12 at 11:45 a.m.
Awww, Spoky,
MrB
tried to rhyme
and everything
yet
he cannot satisfy
everyone
this is the way
of art and opinion
as to the vomiting
up with his pen
zinger
MrB prefers
to trigger emesis
with his index
finger
:-0 -
reservedparking on June 12 at 11:47 a.m.
So Mr. Soverign and Company need to go start their own country somewhere… perhaps some deserted island would be lovely. In the meantime, if they continue to choose to not play by the rules, they need to stop taking advantage of all the rights afforded the rest of us.
If they’re not citizens, deport them.
opeled on June 12 at 12:03 p.m.
licenses are what governing bodies use to make a normal action a crime
Albert on June 12 at 12:06 p.m.
@leekinny, I will reply - this one time - to your lack of understanding pertaining to what, exactly, I stated as fact.
I was a member of Your Heritage Protection Association, not only attended their training, but conducted these seminars. I therefore do know somewhat about what I stated in my remarks pertaining to the Sovereign folks. This movement became immensely popular throughout America, to the point that the tax revenues significantly decreased. Mr. Regan made a public appeal to “Please begin to pay your taxes again”. He also provided a clemency period wherein we members of the Movement could file our taxes without penalty. I therefore took advantage of Mr. Regan’s offer and his honesty.
Mr. Obamanation is following exactly in Mr. Carter’s footsteps, thus the proverbial statement of “History repeats itself” bears witness with this new Sovereign Movement.
I would suggest, in all respect, that you do not promote an opinion based upon what you “think” is fact, especially when you fail to note exactly WHAT I stated.
opeled on June 12 at 12:09 p.m.
a license often is the tool that turns a normal act into a crime
SMARTGUY on June 12 at 12:22 p.m.
Morons who think they can do what they please without worrying about the consequenses are why we HAVE police and jails.
gmorton on June 12 at 12:35 p.m.
mejdaewrote,
“There must be an agreement of some sort, mediated by some sort of structure beyond the individual, or chaos reigns and the trappings of organized society fall away (for good or ill, I’ll leave that up to each person to decide).”
I agree.
“Not to mention that property of any sort has no meaning without law or force to back it up.”
Oh, no. It has to have meaning *prior* to the enactment of any laws, else how would one know which laws to adopt? Laws are enacted (in theory) to protect and adjudicate rights recognized and understood implicitly (though they may not be uniformly respected) by everyone who lives in a social setting. Rights precede governments: ” … to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men . . .”
BuRgEoNyT on June 12 at 1:05 p.m.
I find this sophomoric attempt by Ms. Cuniff to portray anyone who stands up to government tyranny as violent extremists quite laughable. Bernays and Hegel would be quite proud of you, this Trojan Horse will slide by most people’s defenses and deliver the underlying establishment rhetoric unimpeded.
Perhaps Ms. Cuniff could have iterated how the sovereign movement is rooted in the non-aggression principle where the use of force should only be implemented in defense of life, liberty, or property; and thusly the only time a sovereign citizen becomes violent is when an aggressor attacks them. Perhaps she could have mentioned that sovereigns do believe in the law, common law more specifically. Perhaps she could have mentioned Southern Poverty Law Center operative Morris Dees telling reporters regarding the SPLC’s involvement at Elohim City with McViegh, “If I told you what we doing there, I would have to kill you.” Perhaps she could have enlightened everyone to Operation CHAOS, or COINTELPRO, or FBI agent provocateur Hal Turner inciting violence under the guise of being a white supremacist leader. If Frank Harrill doesn’t want to criminalize the belief system, then why has the FBI time and time again been involved in inciting various movements over the years to violence?
No mentions whatsoever, but then again if readers get the entire story, they would come to a conclusion contrary to what Ms. Cuniff is attempting to imbue.
Digdeeper on June 12 at 2:34 p.m.
The “sovereign movement” sweeping the country at this time is the most misunderstood movement on the mainstream media today. The “movement” itself is largely peaceful in nature and is made up of Americans that what nothing more then to be left alone by an ever expanding hunger for power in the government sector.
The constitution, strictly limits federal power and delegates the lions share of power to the states and by extension the people of those several states. The founders never intended a large centralized government bureaucracy to quarterback the day to day affairs of the people of the country.
Looking inside of the “sovereign movement” across the country we can see that it is a natural response to the wild and seemingly endless spending, no-holds-barred, TSA cavity searching, internet spying, corporate protectionist, and raw milk producer shake down of the Amish that the currant government has morphed in to in the past fifty years, maybe longer.
Liberty is a popular thing, regardless of what position one holds, be it an office, title, rank, or lack of any of those.
The sovereigns that espouse a peaceful movement, and this may come a surprise to 60 minutes, are anything but anti-law. In fact it’s quite the opposite. A sovereign that I know was sitting in a court room as moral support for a friend of hers who was there to discus a nonviolent offense, an offense one mite add that there was no victim or even a potential victim, or even the possibility of a victim. Wile she sat there listening to all the other people and their respective private lawyers and public defenders she noticed that about half of the cases being presented to the court were legislated crimes, meaning crimes that had no victim and no harm done to anyone, eg; some stoner with a joint, a ticket unpaid, a failure to appear for some kind of insurance violation, etc.
The other half needed to be there, eg; theft, armed robbery, car theft, vandalism, assault, assault with a deadly weapon, check fraud, etc. These were the people that had caused real damage to society.
Under common law -in the world of the sovereigns see Magnacata 1215- these people that had caused all this real damage and loss of, or damage to, private property -these real criminals- would have to be held accountable for their actions, furthermore would likely receive a more fitting sentence.
As things are today as we know them, the people that committed the assorted theft, robbery, fraud, vandalism, assault, and so on will likely get a much smaller sentence, wile the none violent will likely be given some kind of demand for money, or be incarcerated for a longer time frame. Does anyone else see a problem with this?
The police and criminal justice system is suppose to be in place to locate those in our communities who are causing actual harm or loss, not those that we may disagree with on life style choice, choice of milk, choice of religion, choice of speech, choice of gun ownership, choice of company we keep etc.
We should all remember that as Americans we are all sovereign because we are suppose to be the We, in We the People.
Perhaps asking a few questions should be what We the People should be doing rather than making a snap judgement one way or the other and look at the individual actions of individual people and not a collective of anything.
As for the various opinions on the “sovereign movement” one can only hope that We the People don’t make the mistake of thinking or saying that because one father and son loose their minds and act out violently that all sovereign people will act the same. To think this way is to suggest that all doctors are like Jack Kevorkian, all lawyers are like Scott Rothstein, all energy and commodities servicing companies are like Enron, all police beat-up disabled people in wheel chairs, all stock brokers are like Bernie Madoff, and that all Americans are like all-of-the-above.
by Brian Sombrets
Scoutster on June 12 at 3:11 p.m.
DigDeeper..
Thank you for that. I think a lot of folks misunderstand the theoretically background of this point of view. It is impossible to live as a sovereign in today’s world, just as I’ve never met a Christian, but there is a model to aspire to.
The Declaration of Independence, I believe, points out that legitimate government demands “the consent of the governed”.
Orange on June 12 at 4:32 p.m.
I knew this story would bring a lot of not so intelligent comments about a not so intelligent group. Another hate group for the Spokanites. Poor Spokane.
dkerns on June 12 at 4:49 p.m.
I’ve kept this bookmark for several years and refer to it on occasion. It says a lot; perhaps expressing what the sovereigns might believe (I don’t know).
It is interesting reading for those with an open mind.
Lastly, thanks to all who have contributed thoughtful comments in this thread.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/hambidge/hambidge2.html
schmuck281 on June 12 at 4:54 p.m.
Another klansman-under-every-bed scare story from Morris Dees’ little money machine. They put out press released warning about the dangers of various right wing bogeymen This prompts some airhead reporter to do a story and the liberal goofs send money to support their ‘investigation’.
They’re nothing but an office with a few well paid drones that do nothing but sit around thinking us the next scary story they can tell to scare the suckers.
gmorton on June 12 at 5:14 p.m.
Digdeeper and dkerns,
Great posts. Please comment more often.
greenlibertarian on June 12 at 6:21 p.m.
dkerns on June 12 at 4:49 p.m.
I’ve kept this bookmark for several years and refer to it on occasion. It says a lot; perhaps expressing what the sovereigns might believe (I don’t know).
It is interesting reading for those with an open mind.
Lastly, thanks to all who have contributed thoughtful comments in this thread.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/hambidge/hambidge2.html
Indeed interesting. I am sympathetic to many of the points mentioned, in particular revulsion for having to pay for what in effect is a shadow government that operates both in this country and the world as an enormously expensive military industrial complex empire. That is the tap root which must be attacked with great rigor.
“when there is an income tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income.”
-Plato
More and more Americans are believing that the just man is the sucker. A lot of this was reaction to the Vietnam War, in which we learned to the government was lying in spades and we poured billions in treasure, 50,000 + KIA, hundreds of thousands grievously wounded, thousands upon thousands of suicides on a war that was ginned up from the very start. Then Watergate and it’s associated skullduggery again shook the nation’s belief in the concept of “good government.”, though certainly we were warned, from everyone like the Founders themselves, to Mark Twain, and General Smedley.
gmorton on June 12 at 7:14 p.m.
greenlibertarian wrote (quoting Plato),
“ … when there is an income tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income.”
Interesting that you would quote Plato, who was arguably Western Civilization’s first totalitarian.
Even more interesting that you would quote him out of context. The author of that quote is actually Thrasymachus, who is challenging Socrates’ conception of justice. Nor is Thrasymachus *defending* any sort of “progressive” income tax. He is only pointing out that the unjust man will scheme to avoid paying his just share of tax, which should be an equal share.
And you could have included this comment of Thrasymachus’s, in the same paragraph:
“I am speaking, as before, of injustice on a large scale in which the advantage of the unjust is more apparent; and my meaning will be most clearly seen if we turn to that highest form of injustice in which the criminal is the happiest of men, and the sufferers or those who refuse to do injustice are the most miserable —that is to say tyranny, which by fraud and force takes away the property of others, not little by little but wholesale; comprehending in one, things sacred as well as profane, private and public; for which acts of wrong, if he were detected perpetrating any one of them singly, he would be punished and incur great disgrace —they who do such wrong in particular cases are called robbers of temples, and man-stealers and burglars and swindlers and thieves. But when a man besides taking away the money of the citizens has made slaves of them, then, instead of these names of reproach, he is termed happy and blessed, not only by the citizens but by all who hear of his having achieved the consummation of injustice.”
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.2.i.html
See any parallels there to the habits of modern States, green?
johnclarke on June 12 at 7:37 p.m.
There is a choice for all of these half wits. Leave. Head off to let’s say…Syria and find out what government is all about. These clowns just love everything us taxpayers provide, yet think their child like antics add up to a hill of beans. They don’t.
hawken on June 12 at 7:42 p.m.
gmorton: excellent post above. Excellent.
johnclarke on June 12 at 9:36 p.m.
Again, my point is proven for me.
MrBloggy on June 12 at 10:19 p.m.
Nice work, Meghann. Seattle Times online picked it up.
Hcklbery on June 13 at 8:04 a.m.
I noticed in another article dated June 8, 2011 of a “Former deputy accused of raping inmate at Spokane Indian Reservation jail”
UNFORTUNATELY if the same rational of the authorities towards these “sovereigns” as revealed here in this article were assigned to this other incident than ALL deputies would be considered “potential” rapist AND ALL judges “potential” court room perverts with pumps hooked to their “junk” while presiding over cases.
The facts, unadulterated, are sufficient; in need of NO thumbs on the scales of justice to reveal the truth and give that truth weight.
DISTORTIONS of truth for convenience sake serves NO ONE and does VIOLENCE to EVERYONE.
BuRgEoNyT on June 13 at 10:05 a.m.
@johnclarke: While I disagree with the methodology employed by ‘sovereigns’; as a classical liberal I do share with them many philosophical and ideological beliefs and I understand their intention to promote societal change through personal nullification. Even though your kindergarden insults like ‘half-wit’ and ‘clowns’ are to a certain extent entertaining indicators of your intellectual prowess, they are also sadly reflective of the limited philosophical grasp that collectivists such as yourself have on most issues. If there were a sustainable territory on the planet free from collectivist raping and pillaging, sovereigns would already be there. It probably wouldn’t last long until some psychopath you help elect feels the need to spread ‘democracy’ by carpet bombing and occupying their territory.
Greycobra on June 13 at 4:22 p.m.
Hello everyone,
I am the individual referenced in this article. I thought I would post some clarification, since the Spokesman seems to have… mischaracterized some of my assertions.
Firstly, my taxes have been paid in full since I was 18 years old. I plan to continue filing Federal income tax, as well as property tax, sales tax etc. Jesus said “Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s…” and I intend on doing exactly that!
Secondly, I am not above the law. My point is exactly the opposite; no one is above the law. This includes myself as well as any police officer, judge, or public servant. I believe that everyone should follow the same laws, and there should be no exemptions. I follow Common Law, which has precedent for most of human history. Common Law states that without a damaged party, there is no crime. If there is a damaged party in the “crime” which I am alleged to have committed, let them come forward so that I may attempt to provide reparations!
Lastly, please understand that the “crime” I am contesting consists of managing a medical marijuana co-op. All equipment and expenses were paid for by the patients themselves. Two of the patients I was serving have cancer, and one is in a wheelchair. All people who received medicine from this co-op have prescriptions for medical marijuana. By intention, I did not profit from this co-op. I simply desired to help these people obtain their “legally” provided medicine in a safe, clean manner.
Under Common Law, the so-called “Sovereign Citizen” who killed those police officers should be punished severely. The same goes for anyone who steals, injures, trespasses or otherwise causes damage. A true Sovereigns is outraged by any Common Law crime, and would insist on punishment for
the perpetrators once they were convicted!
I am a man of peace. I served in the military, and went back to Iraq as a contractor. I saw firsthand the crimes that our government is committing in our name, and simply want no part of it. The Sovereignty issue is strictly a political one. I am intentionally setting myself aside from the corporate government. This does not exempt me from taking responsibility for my actions. If I have harmed anyone by the growing of medical marijuana, let them come forward!
Sincerely,
Adrian
johnclarke on June 13 at 7:04 p.m.
“If there were a sustainable territory on the planet free from collectivist raping and pillaging, sovereigns would already be there. It probably wouldn’t last long until some psychopath you help elect feels the need to spread ‘democracy’ by carpet bombing and occupying their territory”
Well apparently all of your noble ideals failed to stop the subject of the story from cashing in by contracting in a war zone. Should I assume his morality stopped him from cashing the paychecks? Suddenly, he is above all us all crazy people and wants to live beyond the rule of law. While I certainly appreciate your attempt to sound intellectual (normally I am the one being accused of being too liberal) it simply does not fly. Yes, I think the majority of these people are clowns. While they may be well organized, they are bomb throwers that have enjoyed the protections and freedoms that I fought and paid for, and now they have decided that the rule of law does not apply to them. Again, they can leave any time they like. In fact, I would pay their way. I should also mention it is not possible for you to insult me, but by all means keep trying.
gmorton on June 13 at 9:17 p.m.
johnclarke wrote,
“Yes, I think the majority of these people are clowns.”
Clowns, eh?
“While they may be well organized, they are bomb throwers . . .”
Bomber-throwers too?
Just full of gratuitous epithets, aren’t we?
” … and now they have decided that the rule of law does not apply to them.”
Free people do not submit to arbitrary and despotic laws. Never have, never will. Remember the Boston Tea Party?
drywitt99 on June 14 at 5:51 a.m.
@gmorton
Fourth grade history…..you know….the class that Sarah P skipped all year:
“No taxation without representation”….that ring a bell??
Although the colonists certainly did not like paying taxes, their major complaint was that those taxes were IMPOSED UPON them…..and they had no voice in the matter.
ALL Americans DO HAVE A VOICE. They vote for the representatives who vote on the taxes..
If the laws are arbitrary and depositic…..you can VOTE OUT the despots.
An option Adams, Hancock, et al did not have.
The point you whiney teabaggers seem to conveniently forget.
gmorton on June 14 at 9:47 a.m.
drywitt99 wrote,
“’No taxation without representation’….that ring a bell??”
Sure does, dry. But that was only one of the colonists’s complaints. They also believed government had a limited role to play in social life – namely, to protect each person’s rights to life, liberty, and property – and that neither Kings nor majorities possessed any valid authority to enact laws which infringed those rights. Hence they created a government with a short list of enumerated powers and enacted Bill of Rights barring it from exercising any others.
No person has any right to dictate to his neighbor whether he may smoke pot – not the King or England or Joe Sixpack. Nor does Joe acquire such a right just because 1 million others support his edict. One million times zero is still zero. Joe and his million sycophants all need to learn to mind their own business.
BuRgEoNyT on June 14 at 11:38 a.m.
@johnclarke: It sounds like Adrian wants to live like Congressmen, Senators, Presidents, diplomats, illegal aliens in sanctuary cities, the Federal Reserve, corporations that donated to Obama and received waivers from Obamacare, and numerous Federal agencies who are above the rule of law.
Where are these ‘freedoms’ you fought and paid for? If I were you, I’d ask for a refund. Please cite one example in the last 40 years where freedom burgeoned over the previous year. Sadly, approximately 300 new laws are codified annually just at the Federal level. The rule of law was disregarded long ago when lawmakers exempted themselves from their own works. Also, there is no rule of law when the enforcement and compliance are selective due to the inability for any one person to know the law in it’s entirety.
The sovereign citizens are practicing civil disobedience to make a political and moral statement regarding this absurdity. Can you see the blatant propaganda being pushed to demonize the sovereigns and the balkanization techniques employed to prevent mass citizen uprisings against our flawed justice system? Reminds me of a crab pot, as soon as one crab gets close to escaping the pot, the others pull it back in.
While you seem to endorse running away from the problem as a solution, I think we should all join together and face the problem head on. If we are truly serious about the rule of law, let’s call for a return to the common law system that is simple and clear. Then, let us hold EVERYONE accountable to it….including the aforementioned groups. By attacking the sovereign movement for attempting to act like government, you only serve to ensconce the corruption.
I apologize if it seemed I was insulting you, my intention was insulting your original insult.
Greycobra on June 14 at 7:05 p.m.
@BuRgEoNyT,
I agree with most of what you said. Also, the taxes that are assessed in my name are paid. I do not “evade taxes” and personally do not know of any person who claims to be a sovereign and refuses to pay taxes.
The renunciation of CORPORATE citizenship is simply me stating the position that I do not agree with the blatant profiteering, and believe there to be no remedy. Rather than bribe my way out of punishment for arbitrary “crimes”, I simply state that I do not want to live under those rules. This does not mean that I do not believe that laws apply! I simply want laws that apply to me to apply to everyone.
This is why Common Law is so important. I do not ask for any “benefits” that I have not “paid” for. I pay road tax every time I fill up my vehicle with gas. I pay sales tax whenever I go to the store. To say that I am shirking my responsibility in any way is absurd. I simply live here, but do not want to be part of the CORPORATE government. I am willing to engage in commerce with the CORPORATE government, but am not interested in being a “citizen” or employee.
For instance, by shopping at Costco, you agree to engage in commerce with Costco. You are governed by a different set of rules than their employees. In other words, if a rule was made by Costco that employees were not allowed to use cell phones, would you abstain from using yours?
Now if Costco posted a sign that read “No dogs allowed”, this would apply to customers as well as employees. If you do not agree to this term and condition, your remedy is simply to not shop at Costco.
My problem is that I do not have a remedy available to me. I am forced by necessity to live in the place of my birth. However, until a remedy is provided for someone such as myself who does not espouse the corporate rules of WASHINGTON STATE, I must peacefully co-exist with citizens of WASHINGTON STATE. This I intend to do! I am bound by my contract which was filed with the SECRETARY OF STATE. No one rebutted any of this contract, which constitutes acceptance by acquiescence. In this contract, I vow to follow common law, and not cause harm to anyone. I simply want to live in peace and be left alone.
You must remember, I am not the aggressor here. Armed men violently broke into my home, confiscated my property and arrested me. I offered no resistance, simply because I accepted their uniforms as a sign that they had legal standing to perpetrate this intrusion. However, stipulated in the contract which was filed and accepted are penalties for violations of said contract. These damages are where the absurd sum of 1.9 billion dollars in silver come from.
My point is simply that I want to be left alone. There are tons of people in this country who are perfectly happy with welfare, social security, national debt, fiat currency, TSA gropings, SWAT team raids on Amish farmers, marijuana prohibition, and other “benefits” of citizenship. It’s just not for me :-)
toliveanddieinla on June 15 at 6:32 a.m.
so this is about you blackmailing court and trying to sue for 1.9 billion dollars in silver so you dont do time in jail please tell me why did they break into your house did you have over your amount of plants 15 per patient and what crime are you charged with please tell whole story and all the truth so we can see what the hell is going on and nobody does nothing for free i have medical marijuana card and growers are greedy so dont tell me you dont make profit ive tried to get a caregiver and they are punks that want 90 percent of crops and give you 10 percent sounds like greed to me so please dont tell me you dont profit why do you think everybody wants to grow for patients so they can leach off patients so have a nice day and good luck getting any money from spokane you wont get it so man up and take whatever charges you got coming and quit crying about they broke into your house p.s. dont bogart that bowl and are you a medical marijuana patient