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May 22, 2011 in Idaho
Unusual bills come to statehouses after shift toward tea party
BOISE – It wasn’t just in Idaho that state lawmakers ventured onto unusual ground this year, attempting to unilaterally nullify a federal law, debating allowing guns on college campuses and nearly cutting off unemployed Idahoans from receiving extended unemployment benefits on grounds that the benefits will make them lazy.
Montana lawmakers backed a bill to let local sheriffs stop federal law enforcement officers from making arrests in their counties, though the governor vetoed it. They also debated measures to legalize hunting with a hand-thrown spear and declare global warming “beneficial to the welfare and business climate of Montana.”
Florida legislators outlawed droopy pants on schoolkids that show their underwear. Illinois made it legal to pick up road-killed animals for food or fur, saying it’ll clean up the roads.
Utah lawmakers ordered schools to teach kids that the United States is a “compound constitutional republic” rather than a democracy, after the bill’s sponsor said “schools from coast to coast are indoctrinating children to socialism.” South Carolina looked at setting up its own gold or silver currency in case the Federal Reserve system fails. And a Georgia lawmaker pushed unsuccessfully to abolish drivers licenses because he said requiring them violates people’s “inalienable right” to travel.
“I don’t know how many of these are going to become laws or withstand constitutional scrutiny, but it does seem like you have a wider range of ideas that are out there now,” said Seth Masket, a political scientist at the University of Denver who studies state legislatures. “For those who are concerned that politicians have just been peddling the same old ideas for years, this seems like a very good thing. … You have some people who are willing to think outside of the box.”
On the other hand, Masket said, some of the new ideas simply may not work, due to constitutional, practical or political problems.
The shift in legislative agendas could be related to everything from the rise of the tea party movement – as the GOP made big statehouse gains around the country – to newly empowered freshman lawmakers, to national groups that have an easier time in the Internet age pushing legislation in multiple states, experts say.
But it also reflects a cultural change, says Alan Rosenthal, a Rutgers University professor and longtime consultant to state legislatures. “People listen less and advocate more,” Rosenthal said. “Things change. A new generation of legislators doesn’t want to hear about what didn’t work 20 years ago.”
Rosenthal also notes today’s more fragmented media landscape. “We used to have the authority in the television anchor, the Walter Cronkite,” he said. “It was clear: If Cronkite said it happened, it happened. Now we’ve got all sorts of competing views and very little authority out there.”
Fifteen states, including Montana, now have term limits on their state legislatures, sharply increasing turnover and putting pressure on new lawmakers to make their names quickly. Even in states without term limits, newer lawmakers seem empowered.
In Idaho, the sponsor this year of the bill seeking to nullify the federal health care reform law was freshman Rep. Vito Barbieri, R-Dalton Gardens, who was serving in his first legislative session. The guns-on-campus bill was pushed by a second-term lawmaker, Rep. Erik Simpson, R-Idaho Falls.
In the 2010 legislative elections, more than 700 seats nationally switched from Democratic to Republican hands, reports Gary Moncrief, a Boise State University political scientist who tracks legislative elections across the country. “It’s partly just the tenor of the times,” he said.
Thad Kousser, a political science professor at the University of California-San Diego who studies state governments, said, “What changes is when you have a big shift in one direction, suddenly people who are on the edge of the political spectrum are now in the mainstream, and these things can pass.”
Political parties are more polarized now than they’ve been in decades, Rosenthal said. “I think it’s the environment that we’re in now that leads to more extreme ideas. … The pragmatic strain which there has been in American politics is being kind of replaced by the ideological strain.” Both still are present, he said, but “the balance is changing.”
Masket said the “inexperience factor” has risen in state legislatures, as movements like the tea party encouraged people to run who might not have been involved in politics or political party organizations previously. “It’s a different breed of candidate,” he said. “It’s people who don’t have a whole lot of history in the Republican Party who just suddenly got engaged.”
When people with no political experience enter the process, he said, “They might bring all sorts of unusual ideas.”
The rise of the tea party also prompted sitting GOP lawmakers to pay attention to the group’s issues, Rosenthal noted, to “sort of walk that tightrope and make sure they don’t have a tea party candidate running in the primary against them.”
Gun-rights advocates have been particularly empowered this year, pushing legislation in many states. Among the results: In Arizona, in the same year that a congresswoman was gravely wounded in a deadly mass shooting, the legislature enacted a new law this year designating a state gun, the Colt single-action Army revolver.
“That in itself is really remarkable,” Masket said. Gun rights, he said, are “an issue that really mattered to a lot of the folks that ran last year, and they’re suddenly in office.” Plus, he said, “There’s really not much pushback. … The conservatives complain a lot that the liberals want to take away their guns, but the liberals haven’t really been trying to do that for 20 or 30 years.”
Recent stories by Betsy Z. Russell
Tax-protesting Idaho state rep files for bankruptcy May 30, 2012 3- Mussel infestation threatens NW waters May 30, 2012 1
- Invasive mussels on the move toward Northwest May 29, 2012 5
- Unique artifacts confirm indelible link between Idaho, Lincoln May 27, 2012 1
- Eye on Boise: Idaho backs Montana’s campaign spending fight May 27, 2012 1
polistra on May 22 at 4:35 a.m.
Good lord, what’s ODD about trying to make things work? At the federal level, only the most experienced and the richest can get anywhere near the levers of power, and the federal level has been roaring down the tracks to hell for 30 years.
In the last 2 years, states are starting to clean things up, starting to get out of debt, starting to try things that work.
And in case Rosenthal has never read any history, “inexperienced legislators with short terms” was exactly how the system was meant to work. It was NOT SUPPOSED to be reserved for Wall Street billionaires.
Frankly, our only chance of survival is to hope that the Federal crime syndicate collapses quickly, allowing the states to form a new federation. That’s what happened to the Russian Empire in 1989, and it needs to happen here.
Ninch on May 22 at 6:24 a.m.
Good points…polistra….Especially about the “inexperienced legislators with short terms.” We need more new ideas and far less party loyalty (the latter required for handing out re-election funding).
detroitdude on May 22 at 6:50 a.m.
I agree that there need to be fresh ideas and more thinking outside the box.
“Florida legislators outlawed droopy pants on schoolkids that show their underwear. Illinois made it legal to pick up road-killed animals for food or fur, saying it’ll clean up the roads.”
What bothers me are laws like the ones above. These had to be written, debated, and passed all on the money of the residents of those states. I think it makes someone look like a total tool if they walk around with sagging pants, but a state law?? Really?
leekinny on May 22 at 8:23 a.m.
Besides political insanity, Tea Party Republicans have over-reached so far as to place themselves miles to the right of mainstream America. They’re also playing with fascism, and that makes them, not only ignorant, but, potentially dangerous!
johnclarke on May 22 at 8:29 a.m.
The clock is ticking on the Tea Party. Even the American people will tire of their time wasting antics in short order.
hawken on May 22 at 8:31 a.m.
Well said polistra.
JBlim on May 22 at 8:57 a.m.
The new national pastime: watching right-wing diehards contort themselves into pretzels trying to rationalize the bizarre ideas of a misguided tea party.
leekinny on May 22 at 9:00 a.m.
“inexperienced legislators with short terms”, must rely on the non-elected federal or state staff and worker to understand the complications of government in the modern world.
Term limits also takes away the right of the citizen to vote for who they please. No one has that right to step on the electoral rights of others.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on May 22 at 9:20 a.m.
How is anything polistra said right, good points or well said?
Please give me an example of a bill that these tea baggers have put forth in ANY STATE or on the Federal level that became a law and have actually helped cut the debt or created jobs.
biker on May 22 at 9:23 a.m.
The comparison of these laws to the “Tea Party” shift as the title of this article suggests is absurd. I am not a Tea Party member, nor a devout conservative, but I do recognize a whitewash when I see it. Most of these law proposals written of in this article are totally contrary to the anti-big government philosophy of the movement. Laws regarding picking up roadkill and and banning low-slung pants are hardly in line with smaller government. Nothing new here….there is always a yearly slew of unusual proposals in our local, state and federal government bodies. I don’t think we even want to go to some of the proposals that were not mentioned in this article which can be attributed to non-conservative ties.
eagleproducer on May 22 at 9:33 a.m.
I predicted a surge of right wing power right after Obama’s victory.
I also predicted the rise of the most extreme elements in their “movement” because that’s all that remained of the GOP after Boy George’s cabal drove all their moderates into independent land or the waiting arms of the left. I then predicted the small surge of power would land a bunch of dolts in office who would hasten the demise of the conservative movement in the U.S. and strip them of the last shards of credibility and efficacy in the eyes of the voting public.
Call me Nostradamus!
eagleproducer on May 22 at 9:37 a.m.
I guess to pollstra “making things work” means redefining rape, defunding planned parenthood and NPR, etc, not to mention passing laws that are essentially treasonous and promoting civil strife.
I remember Tammy Fay Boehner standing in front of the cameras last September holding a list of promises to the voters should they hand his party control of the House of Reps. Not a single item on the list has been accomplished and I’m not aware of a single effort to even propose legislation that would lead to accomplishment of a single item on the list.
leekinny on May 22 at 10:09 a.m.
biker said…
“I don’t think we even want to go to some of the proposals that were not mentioned in this article which can be attributed to non-conservative ties.”
They all have an ‘R’ after they’re name and hold the Tea Party Republicans in high esteem.
JBlim on May 22 at 10:24 a.m.
Funny how some examples are big government solutions:
“lawmakers ordered schools to teach kids . . .[whatever]”
“term limits on their state legislatures” (restrictions on who one can vote for)
“legislators outlawed [whatever kind of] pants”
mrd on May 22 at 10:30 a.m.
Many tea party members have some bizarre ideas of what our country should be. This year they have set Idaho back so many years it will negatively affect our children for decades. Tea party radicals need to go. Thinking outside the box is great, destroying the chance for a good education for our children is disgusting.
hamrsrscarry on May 22 at 10:34 a.m.
Wow, look at all the jobs the Tea Party is bringing America!
What a bunch of puckered up buffoons.
Bible sniffing slap monkeys.
Scared of reality and in love with dumb.
Cold hearted hate machines
Brain Abortionists
What is left on the pavement after the road killed deer is scraped off by Jethro and his sister mom.
Intergalactic Morons
One termers
Every time they pass a stupid, God kills a bald eagle
Things that make bags of hammers feel smart
Outhouse Clackers
What? No new crimes and punishments codes for stoning witches?
C’mon Tea Party, step it up. are you all soft on witches?
leekinny on May 22 at 10:37 a.m.
Tennessee …Senate forbidding the discussion of anything ‘Gay’ before high school… http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/05/21/_don_t_say_gay_bill_passed_in_tennessee_senate.html …
The Tea Party Republicans wanted secret evidence to be used in court when blaming any person or group of terrorism and that the person or group would be considered guilty until proven otherwise….
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-05-22-tennessee-bill-tea-party_n.htm
Dazzeetrader11 on May 22 at 10:46 a.m.
Tea Party group is basically what the libs call Repubs. Just a label. What’s really needed is what Pol was saying. Small government fromthe federal level so America can recover. Big government has overseen economic collapse, no jobs, incredible spending, millions of government jobs at the expense of the rest of the country who has to pay for big government. It’s a losing non sustainable concept that leads to crippling socialism.
Conservatives must reverse this trend from Obama…who accentauted the Bush years mistakes. Tea Party and the states are forgin ahead with small government fro obvious reasons. States better know their problems. Many states like Washington did spend too much on the wrong things. Ask Gregoire.
Nothing but debt to show for her spending. Same with Verner. Both need fired. Smaller government is a better system Lower taxes grow the country NOT high taxes to fund big government. This is the heart of what the Tea Party is: lower taxes and small government. I like that.
leekinny on May 22 at 10:50 a.m.
Arizona, land of discrimantory profiling and all around Tea Party craziness, has granted the Tea Party Republican flag, ‘Don’t Tread On Me’ the same level of protection as the American flag…
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/04/19/jan-brewer-tea-party-flag/
Dazzeetrader11 on May 22 at 10:50 a.m.
Look what big government and the socialist have done to Spain. Same with Greece.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43116460/ns/world_news-europe
gmorton on May 22 at 11:05 a.m.
leekinny wrote,
“The Tea Party Republicans wanted secret evidence to be used in court when blaming any person or group of terrorism and that the person or group would be considered guilty until proven otherwise…. ”
Anyone can call themselves “Tea Party Republicans.” You’ll notice it was the libertarians – the real “Tea Party” – who stripped those provisions from the bill.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on May 22 at 11:10 a.m.
Dazzee, look at what the big government conservatives did to THIS country. No need to look at Europe, we have our own problems right here that had nothing to do with socialists, but with conservatives started under Reagan and put on steroids by Bush.
Dazzeetrader11 on May 22 at 11:11 a.m.
Arizonians should be able to defend their own borders as they see fit IF the Federals won’t. Obama’s more worried about Israel’s borders than our own.
Arizona is only protecting itself. What’s wrong with that?? Big government wants to control things in Arizona………..Arizona’s not having that. The citizens have spoken on this.
Good post GM.
leekinny on May 22 at 11:14 a.m.
On the same subject of our Flag…
Chuck Norris suggested if you can’t get a ‘Tea Party flag, then you should stain the modern USA flag with tea and fly that.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2009/0924/chuck-norris-to-america-hoist-that-tea-stained-flag
Will Arizona Tea Party Republicans want to grant the same level of protection to a desecrated American flag, too?
Dazzeetrader11 on May 22 at 11:22 a.m.
You’re correct liberal. Exactly when the Tea Party and myself wants’ small government. Big government simply doesn’t work for the people. This is the main reason why the Tea PArty is successful. They want small government and lower taxes. …which is the antithesis of big governments like Obama has. Doesn’t matter if it’s blue or red or green……..small government is much more in line with America’s future.
leekinny on May 22 at 11:39 a.m.
gmorton said…”” You’ll notice it was the libertarians – the real “Tea Party””
I was hoping someone would mention that.
That’s one of the more enjoyable things when Tea Party watching. Who does the party belong to, Libertarians or the wacko right wing. I get a big kick out of watching highly motivated, and a lot more fun, Libertarians propel Rep. Ron Paul to the top of the straw polls.
You all think the other one is the fringe group. The rest of us our having fun waiting to see how it’s going to play out. Right now it seems like big government, ‘control from the from bed to the mind’ Conservatives have the upper hand.
What will you do to counter that?
leekinny on May 22 at 11:53 a.m.
How is making everyone always be in possession of their papers, to be shown to the police when commanded,an example of small government?
Once again, who owns the Tea Party, Libertarians or the Righties?
johnclarke on May 22 at 11:55 a.m.
“Conservatives must reverse this trend from Obama”
Um Daisy-do, would you care to provide an example? Is Idaho the type of government you are looking for? Ok, then please move there and enjoy.
greenlibertarian on May 22 at 11:56 a.m.
The protests and losses the Socialist Party will endure are precisely because the socialist government in Spain was forced to shrink the government, cut benefits, and cut deficits as a result of taking a bailout from the EU. THAT is what the protesters are protesting about. AGAINST cutting government spending.
As usual, the ignorant have things precisely backward.
JBlim on May 22 at 11:58 a.m.
The Bush-era tax cuts and the Iraq and Afghanistan wars account for almost half of the projected public debt in 2019, see chart:
http://www.offthechartsblog.org/what%E2%80%99s-driving-projected-debt/
This is what happens when unusual thinking such as “smart didn’t work (Clinton’s eight years of peace and prosperity) so maybe it’s time we give stupid a try (George W Bush). The chart shows how stupid did.
leekinny on May 22 at 12:01 p.m.
When cutting government spending is everything on the table, or just the things Conservatives don’t like?
bdr on May 22 at 12:21 p.m.
It looks like 1854 and counting for the GOP party! Oops did I say GOP I meant Whigs.
Dazzeetrader11 on May 22 at 12:44 p.m.
How about cutting what Obama promised…and don’t increase the debt by Obamacare? Obamacare alone will be past $20 trillion in the next 8-10 years. It’s a complete socialist plan…and, as usual an intolerbly expensive one. One we cannot afford.
PlanB on May 22 at 1:02 p.m.
I’d like to thank those that have pointed out the extreme hypocrisy of these bizarre bills, of legislating education, term limits, etc… Most are a total waste of time and will do nothing, but the intent is actually the polar opposite of what they are advertised to represent. Want more government intrusion, fewer liberties, higher deficits? Then enjoy drinking the kool-aid and voting for these tea party phonies.
JBlim on May 22 at 1:26 p.m.
Dazee the European socialist plans work better than ours, and for less money:
“The U.S. health system is the most expensive in the world, but comparative analyses consistently show the United States underperforms relative to other countries on most dimensions of performance. Among the seven nations studied—Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last overall, as it did in the 2007, 2006, and 2004. Most troubling, the U.S. fails to achieve better health outcomes than the other countries, and as shown in the earlier editions, the U.S. is last on dimensions of access, patient safety, coordination, efficiency, and equity. The Netherlands ranks first, followed closely by the U.K. and Australia.”
http://www.bullfax.com/?q=node-us-ranks-last-health-care-vs-aus-can-ger-neth-nz-uk
leekinny on May 22 at 1:38 p.m.
Michigan Tea Party influence…
Michigan Tea Party Republican Gov. Rick Snyder has signed a bill that allows him to take over political and economic control of any town or city in the state, by the use of what Tea Party Republicans call,”emergency financial managers” .
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110327080639AAfXi0e
I know this is a liberal source since it is Ms. Maddow, but she does the best job out there explaining this authortarian move by Tea Party Republicans…
http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/04/maddow-mich-gov-snyder-using-new-emergency-financial-managers-law-to-assist-corporate-land-grab-from-the-poor/
Another example of a Conservative not respecting the vote or Democracy.
Term limits were brought up earlier. Republicans only want it for Democrats because they believe the conservative mindset will always win. I’ll believe you all when you start demanding that Rep. McMorris Rodgers step down so she can be replaced with a canidate of little political experience.
flutieflakes on May 22 at 1:45 p.m.
They should have passed a law requiring motorists to use only one lane on the highway.
Dazzeetrader11 on May 22 at 1:54 p.m.
Blim…live there for a while before you speak. Euro care is up there as the worst. In fact everything in Europe is worse except for mass transit.
China is the worst followed by Russia. Ero care depends on people not using it or dying first. You know not of which you speak.
Us healthcare as it is right now is the very best you’ll ever see…..unless you write big checks so you can go to Cleveland Clinic or Mayoclinic….Scripps is also decent but the costs for usual people is prohibitive. For the normal citizen, US care is the best care. America doesn’t want it so Obama etc will try to force it down our thoats. Too pricey bad service, bad care……Euro care. It’s a disaster. he’ll push it anyway..it’ll cost him. Seems like everything he does flies in the face of American opinion. He’ll be a one term failure…..he already IS!
greenlibertarian on May 22 at 1:55 p.m.
jblim, your link on health care:
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2010/Jun/Mirror-Mirror-Update.aspx
Don’t you SEE IT?
It’s SOCIALISM!
Common wealth fund!
Why, that’s COMMUNISM! It’s FASCISM!
America will DIE FIRST before resorting to SOCIALISM!
greenlibertarian on May 22 at 1:57 p.m.
And please, do not feed the trolls.
leekinny on May 22 at 2:12 p.m.
greenlibertarian; “Why, that’s COMMUNISM! It’s FASCISM!”
I really hope that’s tongue-in-cheek. Normally when I see those words used interchangeably I see ignorance wrapped up in gullibility.
Well, it seems to me, you are just pointing to both extremes rather than coupling them up. The only thing is many Tea Party Conservatives do have those words mixed up.
johnclarke on May 22 at 2:34 p.m.
“Blim…live there for a while before you speak. Euro care is up there as the worst. In fact everything in Europe is worse except for mass transit.”
Wow, I can’t believe I’m going to argue with a crazy person but you are wrong wrong wrong Daisy. I know three people that are alive thanks to more advanced cancer treatments in Germany. If you think the United States has the best health care in the world, your meds are out of balance again.
hawken on May 22 at 2:48 p.m.
polistra on May 22 at 4:35 a.m.
Nailed it…. scroll to the top of the string.
leekinny on May 22 at 2:51 p.m.
Oklahoma Tea Party influence…
Forming a militia to protect against what they see as federal government interference into state matters. In other words their own little army to fight against the United States of America, if they see fit. from the freepers…
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2500487/posts
Tea Party Republicans let their irrational zeal for paranoid fantasies, and disrespect for the first amendment, come into full bloom when attempting to outlaw, Sharia law.
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/22/oklahoma-sharia-update/
leekinny on May 22 at 2:59 p.m.
polistra said:
“That’s what happened to the Russian Empire in 1989, and it needs to happen here.”
The USSR, while hopes were high for a little while, has collapsed into just another dirty dictatorship. Is that what you mean would be ‘good’ for the USA?
greenlibertarian on May 22 at 3:11 p.m.
leekinny on May 22 at 2:12 p.m.
It was a joke, son.
Many conservatives are not going to believe an assessment from something call The Commonwealth Fund. If it’s not in the Bible, or published at Wing Nut Daily, or Breitbart, SnoozeMax, Cato, or Heritage, it just ain’t real.
Dazzeetrader11 on May 22 at 3:22 p.m.
It isn’t real because you quote it greenie. Data is flawed with limited application. Know that.
JBlim on May 22 at 3:35 p.m.
Dazee: “Euro care is up there as the worst. In fact everything in Europe is worse except for mass transit.”
You’re just making this up & you have no credibility. I’m sorry if actual facts have a liberal bias. You can’t handle the truth.
leekinny on May 22 at 3:44 p.m.
I’ve sighted a handful of laws or an attempt at making laws favorable to those who call themselves the Tea Party. Many more examples can be found with a little help from the Google across our land in places like Kansas, Wisconsin, and Idaho.
In Texas they want school books only teaching of the great things the white men of this country have contributed, but nothing of the struggles, discrimination and accomplishments of the minority community. In Arizona they’ve made that teaching mandatory.
The Neocons of the Bush administration believed in the unitary executive. That during a time of war the president has the power of a monarch. During a time of endless war against the tactic of terrorism, that means, always.
Enter the Tea Party governors and legislators.They have shown a despotic desire for autocratic rule within their states. Their has been no example showing purely Libertarian goals as you can see in their platform. http://www.lp.org/platform
Once again who is the Tea Party, the right-wing religious conservatives or the Libertarians? And, by the way just how strong of an influence do racist have in the group who no one knows owns or just exactly what their platform is?
gmorton on May 22 at 4:18 p.m.
leekinny wrote,
“When cutting government spending is everything on the table, or just the things Conservatives don’t like?”
Everything not mentioned in Article I, Sec. 8 of the Constitution. That includes “defense” which is not actually defense, but warmongering to achieve dubious foreign policy objectives, i.e., “diplomacy by other means.”
leekinny on May 22 at 4:25 p.m.
@ greenlibertarian :
I don’t want to leave the impression that I don’t like Libertarians. I think, not just me, but most people on the left see you all as a cool group. We just have deep disagreements with about half of your honestly held political stands.
We have trouble with your fiscal approach. When I was younger I believed a Libertarian president and a Congress strong enough to bargain or override a veto on fiscal matters that go, too far, would make for a good country.
I have no doubt that Rep. Dr. Ron Paul would fulfill his role in that scenario, but our current Congress is, too, weak and whippy.
How do you recapture the Tea Party movement from the Dick Armey,s of Pallin, Bachman and King’s?
detroitdude on May 22 at 4:36 p.m.
“America’s the greatest. Live somewhere outside of the US border sometime and you’re obvious opinion that “US is bad…Europe is great” opinion of their socialism will have you crawling back to the borders.”
Yeah tell that to the 50 million Americans without health care.
leekinny on May 22 at 4:38 p.m.
gmorton :
Liberals, progressives and Democrats aren’t the ones you should be trying to convince. It’s the members right of center and farther that you need to move along.
Literalist interpretation of the Constitution ignores 200 years of hard fought history. It attempts to make simple that which, in reality, isn’t. It’s the same, not with just our founding documents, but with the Bible and Koran, as well.
A bumper sticker slogan is just a tad bit, too short, to represent the truth about anything.
gmorton on May 22 at 4:57 p.m.
JBlim wrote,
“The U.S. health system is the most expensive in the world, but comparative analyses consistently show the United States underperforms relative to other countries on most dimensions of performance.”
Well, no. Polls of patients and providers does not constitute a “comparative analysis” of health care quality or performance. Nor do mortality tables, since they are far more a function of demographic and lifestyle factors than of the health care system.
johnclarke on May 22 at 4:59 p.m.
Even if I were a drunk Daisy, I could go drink a handle of vodka and still make more sense than you. I’m sure YOU believe this rich fantasy life you have made up for yourself, but no one else does. If you worked for the FDA, then I am the pope. Thanks for trying to talk down to me, but it’s not possible for you to insult me. You are clearly not qualified and/or sober. Get on a program.
gmorton on May 22 at 5:15 p.m.
Here is a more thorough and relevant summary:
http://www.urban.org/uploadedpdf/411947_ushealthcare_quality.pdf
leekinny on May 22 at 5:24 p.m.
I just turned on the tube to the weather channel. Joplin, Mo. just got smashed to pieces by a tornado. The front that spawned it will be heading toward the ST. Louis area, where many members of my family reside on the Illinois side.
How would you haters of government feel when you’re faced with something as monstrous as that?
In the Republican bill for 2011 they slashed the pieces out of NOAA. I’m grateful for the National Weather and all the people they save with they’re education and warnings. All the Conservatives could see was something standing in their way over human caused climate change and the hurt it would cause some industry greasing their pockets.
I’m glad for all the police and firefighters and EMT’s and all the others who are there immediately when disaster strikes. Rush and the rest of hate radio and FOX have treated these people like dirt over the last several months just because they want to exercise they’re freedom of speech and assembly.
You GOP types even laid into the Red Cross after 9-11.
FEMA isn’t as the Republicans saw it as something to be drowned in a bathtub then run down.
It is a necessary lifeline to many.
Don’t be stupid in your parroting of all things Conservative.
Think of the valuable role they play in our lives and those lives in our nation.
detroitdude on May 22 at 5:44 p.m.
Leekinny, I’ll step in on this one and save Hawken the trouble in regards to your above post. Red Herring!!!! LOL
gmorton on May 22 at 5:57 p.m.
leekinny wrote,
“Another example of a Conservative not respecting the vote or Democracy.”
Heh. Here’s something Maddow failed to mention: Benton Harbor’s financial manager (a black man, BTW) was appointed in April, 2009, after a state Treasury Dept audit reported a “long history of mismanagement” such that the city’s budgets were “effectively meaningless as a management tool,” by the last governor, Jennifer Granholm – a Democrat.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110511/us_nm/us_usa_debt_municipalities_1
gmorton on May 22 at 6:09 p.m.
leekinny wrote,
“Normally when I see those words used interchangeably I see ignorance wrapped up in gullibility.”
They are not precisely interchangeable, but they are closely related enough that the differences don’t matter in most contexts. Both doctrines rely on the “organic fallacy” (the mistaken view that societies are organisms with collective interests and goals, to which the interests of individuals are subordinate), and seek to vest unlimited power in an authoritarian State.
gmorton on May 22 at 6:23 p.m.
leekinny wrote,
“Literalist interpretation of the Constitution ignores 200 years of hard fought history.”
Oh, no. The relevant history extends back only about 75 years, not 200, to the 1930s and the “New Deal,” which ushered in the present post-Constitutional Era. And libertarians certainly don’t ignore it; they aim to reverse it.
JBlim on May 22 at 6:41 p.m.
from the study cited by gmorton:
“Faced with the evidence, one
might well ask why it is that
assertions of the superiority of
U.S. health care are so common.”
“On the basis of this review it is
safe to say that U.S. health care is
not pre-eminent on quality;
furthermore, one can surely argue
that U.S. health care quality is not
at risk from the kinds of health
reform proposals receiving
attention. On the contrary, our
findings strengthen arguments that
reform is needed to improve the
relative performance of the U.S.
health system on quality. If reform
accomplishes no more than
extending insurance coverage to
the more than 45 million
Americans without insurance, it
will be an important step forward . . .”
What are you trying to say, gmorton? That you agree with me?
Dazzeetrader11 on May 22 at 6:45 p.m.
We don’t hate government. We love SMALL government that doesn’t try to control us with overreaching rules and impediments.
And Blim or your lil sidekick Clarkie…read what I wrote and refute it. No use to personally attack me. i got the goods and you simply have no idea how to refute my post as you have no knowledge. Not of which I speak anyway.
You’re entering my world now when it comes to medicine and economics. Best wishes…now show me something besides your ill-preparedness. Something tells me you should save face ( even your drunk face Clarkie) and drop this before you get a public mugging. Might be fun for me but you’d be disgraced and bit unmasked too as a pair of silly bloogers with no facts on board. Kinda like bring a knife to a gunfight…
Lee..I hope you learn from GMorton. He’s the best.
I’d like to know why the libs are so anti-american. You don’t trust yourself as underachievers so you depend on the government to control those who DO achieve and contribute. You want the government to help you step up so you can compete with the people who are motivated. So you applaud when NLRB tries to hogtie Boeing in S Carolina. Union brained types who get in the way of thousands new jobs in the S Carlolina.
Well fellas…..the government won’t help you be equal. YOU have to be equal.YOU are in charge of you. You rise or fall on what you’ve done…..Obama wants you to think differently like he’s some kind of bigtime savior..a messiah with a message. Well…he’s gone soon and you’ll be lesser for the encounter. better start loving the US as it’s intended to be. Parenthetically, since my old friend Elena Kagan will have to recuse herself from the oBamacare garbage headin g toward the Supreme court, get braced. It’s over. Obama can try to delay getting it to the high court because he knows it’s lost. Doesn’t matter…it’s over.
JBlim on May 22 at 7:01 p.m.
Dazee wants me to refute her posts, Dazee said:
“For the normal citizen, US care is the best care.”
Read the study quoted by gmorton:
“On the basis of this review it is
safe to say that U.S. health care is
not pre-eminent on quality;
furthermore, one can surely argue
that U.S. health care quality is not
at risk from the kinds of health
reform proposals receiving
attention. On the contrary, our
findings strengthen arguments that
reform is needed to improve the
relative performance of the U.S.
health system on quality. If reform
accomplishes no more than
extending insurance coverage to
the more than 45 million
Americans without insurance, it
will be an important step forward . . .”
So there, you have been disproven and refuted by the study cited by gmorton, who you said was the best.
Dazzeetrader11 on May 22 at 7:10 p.m.
8% of the population………and that’s a stretch. Obama claims bigger for his political purposes. @5 of that don’t want insurance and another 2% don’t need it.
So he’s left with a dover of the whole system for 12 million. We’d be better off to just write a check for the disabled amd mentally incapable…like Blim and Clarkie.
But to get to that 4% figure, would any logical person conjure up a system that costs more an dprovides less? Only is the motive isother than good or better healthcare. It’s not. It’s bigger government., insult ing the dollar further and then the system might crash. Job well done Obama.
Back to the story though..this is why the Tea Party want’s LESS government and less taxes. These people might know how they’re getting skinned but they don’t need to be double EE’s to know when the light’s going out. Leaches both of you two. And you stand by thoughtless to your very cores and defend this disaster. It’s not healthcare..it’s forced takeover.
detroitdude on May 22 at 7:20 p.m.
“I’d like to know why the libs are so anti-american.”
Actually Dazzee, nobody posting on here is “Anti-American” as you call it. People use this forum for intelligent discourse about government, social issues, success and failures. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that is what America is all about. Sometimes it takes some balls to stand up and do the right thing even though it isn’t the most popular thing.
How is questioning GOP, tea party, democrat, and the President for the decisions they make anti-American? Indeed, the very right to spout your opinion off (no matter what it is, see the white supremacists who get all pissy about the taco stands in Idaho) is something many people don’t enjoy and never will.
I had a professor in college who taught political science, one of the really interesting things he would do is present us current events, we would go over the article and take what we could from it, but after that we spent the majority of the time investigating what questions were not asked and what answers were not given. To me that was a very enriching experience and it reinforced what pretty much every instructor I had since middle school had said about it being not only your right, but your duty to vehemently question your government and take them to task, and to hold them accountable.
You say you love small government, great, I do too. Why is it that the party who claims to be for “smaller government, less spending” are the ones who don’t practice what they preach? They say one thing and do another, and right now this type of thing has never been more apparent. Democrats didn’t lay the groundwork to invade Iraq, neo-conservatives did. Now, with over a half a million Iraqi refugees, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi’s dead, and last but not least the loss of over 5000 of our service people….you people have the gall to point the finger at our current President, for what, trying to get more of our citizens at least some basic health insurance? Shame on you.
Again, remind me….this is the small, non intrusive government that: Is concerned with what consenting adults do in their bedrooms and/or their sexual orientation, wants to de-fund the couple of news outlets where out of them all you probably get most of the truth in a story, they promote an agenda that is intolerant and encourages others to buy into the mob mentality rhetoric, they openly criticize and want to see people who are demonstrating their rights silenced if they do not agree with said viewpoint, and lastly, they keep whining about cutting spending….you don’t cut spending by mounting a foolhardy ground invasion into a country with the idea of overthrowing it’s leader and occupying and rebuilding the place. Where, pray tell, were all the deficit hawks when the ball was set rolling on this massive waste of money and life?? Did they speak up then? No, but I do remember one Democratic senator from Illinois who voted against going there.
Oh and lastly, don’t mean to burst your bubble/dreamworld/hallucination Dazzee, as much as you hate the guy, he will be back for four more years :)
detroitdude on May 22 at 7:24 p.m.
Also, you make me laugh Dazzee, 5% of the uninsured don’t want to have health insurance? What a joke, anyone who does not have the means of acquiring health insurance would surely like anything that makes it a more realistic possibility for them. I’ve never met anyone, nor heard anyone ever say “Thanks, but no thanks, I don’t need no stinking health insurance.”
greenlibertarian on May 22 at 8:31 p.m.
Fascinating study, gmorton. Thanks. Although it does cite a lot of patient and provider satisfaction issues which you denigrated earlier as of not being much use.
The WHO and OCED studies are flawed in many ways, even still, correcting for those flaws doesn’t get the US to the top in quality as confirmed by the Urban Institute study you linked to.
What stands out, I think, are two points, 1, there is absolutely no hard data to make the assertion (and urban legend, really), that US health care is the best in the world. We do better in some things, and worse, sometimes much worse, in other things.
The proverbial $64,000 (enhanced by massive health care cost inflation) question is why the hell are we paying the most, BY FAR, than all the other countries compared to? With only getting mediocre results?
I know what you answer will be, no personal economic incentive to price and choose treatment based on cost to the individual, but the fact of the matter is, you will never achieve that, politically, it is impossible. No one but a tiny minority of folks think that health care is a service/product that can be bought and sold like any other service or good. It’s simply never going to happen, or certainly won’t happen in time to stave off the massive cost increase that somehow has to be curbed or it will bankrupt the country.
Here’s but one small example of the madness. When digital mammography became available, the best that they could say about after extensive testing was that in might provide a slightly better rate of not producing false positives in younger women. That’s it. But GE marketed the hell out of it, lobbied Congress to the max, and got a 40% increase in the Medicare reimbursement rate for it over traditional film, despite not a shred of evidence that for women over 65, there was absolutely no benefit (and they looked, HARD), no better information provided, than that produced by film. Although it did make it easier to send the mammogram to be “read” by a radiologist anywhere, like India for example.
This one change cost Medicare an additional $350M (over 4 years, I think) for a product/service no better than the older technology. There are hundreds, if not thousands of other such “anamolies” that we pay (more) for, but which there is no logical, medical reason to do so.
One other survey data point was interesting, a larger percentage of US doctors and other providers say the health care system is so broken, that they favor a massive overhaul, compared to other countries.
To this I say, let’s take the best of what’s working elsewhere, (and here, where it actually is) adopt to our unique needs, (if any) and continuously monitor costs and quality of outcomes. This has an evidential basis for success, while your model, in a modern industrialized nation, has none.
gmorton on May 22 at 8:52 p.m.
JBlim wrote,
“What are you trying to say, gmorton? That you agree with me?”
Hardly. The value of that essay is that it distinguishes *effectiveness*, which can be objectively measured, from other components of “performance,” or “quality,” such as “equity” and “accessibility.” The latter are simply not indicators of “quality” as that term is ordinarily understood (we don’t consider the quality of a Ferrari or White’s logging boot to depend on their “accessibility” or availability to the masses).
And on actual measures of quality, US health care does very well:
“In a report that summarized survey research comparing quality of care in five countries, Davis et al. concluded that the United States had relatively high-quality preventive care. 85 percent of
American women reported having had a Pap smear within the last two years and 84 percent of American women age 50 to 64
reported having received a mammogram within the last two
years, the highest shares among the countries included in the survey . . .”
“Perhaps reflecting differences in data sources, the OECD found that the United States had aboveaverage mammography rates (61 percent U.S. versus 55 percent OECD), although was far below the best performers (82-98 percent in four countries). However, the United States had the highest cervical cancer screening rate (83 percent) among 22 countries reporting data to OECD . . .”
“A survey of patients in six countries found that more than half of U.S. diabetics had received four recommended services, a rate comparable to the UK and Germany, and higher than the rate seen in Australia, Canada and New Zealand. The same survey found that 85 percent of U.S. hypertension patients reported having received two recommended tests, a rate identical to Canada and exceeded only by Germany (91 percent) . . .”
“A study by Gatta and colleagues, looked at five-year cancer survival rates for the United States and 17 European countries. The United States had the highest survival rates for cancer of the colon, rectum, lung, breast, and prostate. U.S. survival rates were also among the highest for melanoma (fourth), uterine (second) and ovarian (fifth) cancer, cervical cancer (sixth), Hodgkins disease (third) and non-Hodgkins lymphoma (fourth) … .”
That is not to say that the (real) quality of health care in the US is perfect – there is a great deal of featherbedding and a great many “penny-wise, pound-foolish” treatment decisions made, due to the 3rd party payment system. The latter not only drives an endless cost spiral, but abets decisions which would not be made in a free, competitive market.
Dazzeetrader11 on May 22 at 8:55 p.m.
2% don’t elect to be insured …of the number obama spouts. They want to live of that money he’s trying to steal from them.
Another 2% don’t need it. They’re already taken care of with medicaid.
SO that leaves 4% of 300 million people. 12 million NOT the 42 million people he quotes.
We have the datas. He’s lied and exagerated to sell his point.
Sorry dunderheads. It’s just the way it is. Sold you on a complete bill of goods.
Now..come the waivers..don’t you think the “jig” is up yet?
We need small government. We don’t need overreach by some little socialist who should even be president..except for one strange fact: You left wing idiots bought his story! Nice goin.
gmorton on May 22 at 9:10 p.m.
greenlibertarian wrote,
“When digital mammography became available, the best that they could say about after extensive testing was that in might provide a slightly better rate of not producing false positives in younger women. That’s it. But GE marketed the hell out of it, lobbied Congress to the max, and got a 40% increase in the Medicare reimbursement rate for it over traditional film, despite not a shred of evidence that for women over 65, there was absolutely no benefit . . .”
That’s one example, of hundreds one could find, of the consequences of 3rd party payers. Suppose Mildred and Beatrice are paying for mammograms out of their pockets.
MILDRED: I went for a mammogram today. My doctor told me he had raised his price 40%, ‘cuz he bought this new machine.
BEATRICE: What’s the advantage?
MILDRED: That’s what I asked him. He said it made it easier to send results to other docs. I told him I’d be happy to pay for the price of the stamp to send my mammogram to another doc if he thought it necessary.
BEATRICE (laughing): What did he say?
MILDRED: He said he’d traded in his old machine, and I’d have to use the new one. I told him, “No, thanks. I have this friend, Beatrice, who got her mammogram last week. She paid about what I used to pay you.” So I called your doc, and he will do it on Friday.
JBlim on May 22 at 9:59 p.m.
gmorton, you cherry-picked your quotes out of context to make it seem like the U.S. fared better than it actually did in the study. I took my quotes from the study out of the summary and conclusions.
But I agree the study is a more thorough and relevant summary. Notably, they conclude by supporting the new health care reforms:
“one can surely argue
that U.S. health care quality is not
at risk from the kinds of health
reform proposals receiving
attention. On the contrary, our
findings strengthen arguments that
reform is needed to improve the
relative performance of the U.S.
health system on quality. If reform
accomplishes no more than
extending insurance coverage to
the more than 45 million
Americans without insurance, it
will be an important step forward,
but more is needed to ensure health
care quality improvement. To the
extent it is possible to improve
health care delivery through
reforms that strengthen incentives
to apply knowledge and meet
quality standards, employ
technology to reduce errors and
ensure appropriate care, and help
consumers and patients demand
better quality, even more might be
achieved.”
meadman on May 22 at 10:28 p.m.
A quote from the news article that started all this discussion —
“It’s people who don’t have a whole lot of history in the Republican Party who just suddenly got engaged.”
I would re-write that to say “It’s people who don’t have a whole lot of sense or judgement who just got engaged”.
As someone way early in this discussion said (and no one refuted it), Boehner and the GOP had a long laundry list of all the “good” things they were going to do for the economy and the American citizens if the were elected – NONE of those things have been accomplished and most of them have never even been brought up in discussion in the House.
greenlibertarian on May 22 at 11:15 p.m.
gmorton on May 22 at 9:10 p.m.
Humorously framed retort, I’ll grant you, but, no, that’s not actually like what it is in the real world, only your Utopian world of maximum learned experiential communication.
Almost NEVER happens that way about medical services/products. It’s because the provision of health care is not the same as the provision of a widget. Trying to reduce it to such is utterly futile.
gmorton on May 22 at 11:53 p.m.
greenlibertarian wrote,
“Almost NEVER happens that way about medical services/products.”
Doesn’t now. Mildred & Beatrice don’t care what the mammograms cost. They’re not paying for them.
selkirks on May 23 at 12:17 a.m.
Basically, I’m jumping into a conversation about twelve hours late. But I feel the need to express my opinion on this one.
That is, this thread is a perfect example of what the Tea Party will do in order to spread their misinformation. You watched Dazzee “refute” empirical evidence that America’s healthcare system is substandard by simply stating, essentially, “you are wrong.” There is an undeniable sect within the Republican party that chooses to ignore empirical facts at all costs—whether for political, monetary, or personal gain. There is a laundry list of issues which the Tea Party chooses simply to refute with bogus charts and graphs that have no basis whatsoever in reality. Among them:
-anthropogenic climate change/global warming
-the actual effects of CO2 in the atmosphere
-evolution by natural selection
-the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq
-the education crisis
-the economy
-the fact that trickle down has NEVER WORKED.
-the soaring cost of healthcare
One wonders what their motivation could be, to lie so much. It’s disheartening and frightening.
Anyway, the good news is that with the Republican field as it is now, Mr. Obama’s re-election is all but assured. Seriously, look at all the people that have remotely considered a run:
-Tim Pawlenty
-Newt Gingrich
-Mitt Romney
-Mitch Daniels
-Bobby Jindal
-Haley Barbour
-Donald Trump
-Michelle Bachmann
-Sarah Palin
-etc., etc.
How many of these are Birthers? How many are wealthy and have been for most of their lives? How many are sane?
Seriously, Romney is their only legitimate candidate. And he’s not even likely to get the nomination, what with radical fundamentalists’ fears and his problem of having passed essentially ObamaCare in Massachusetts. It’s a shame.
That said, my pick is Bachmann. I can’t wait to see her on SNL.
greenlibertarian on May 23 at 7:12 a.m.
Bachman, (R,crazy) certainly showed her meddle when the manufactured Israel “crisis” happened, robo-calling thousands in Iowa to impart her own special brand of stupid and wrong. Her negatives aren’t yet as high as Paylin’$, but looks like they’ll be there soon.
gmorton on May 23 at 8:04 a.m.
greenlibertarian wrote,
“It’s because the provision of health care is not the same as the provision of a widget.”
So you’ve claimed several times. How does it differ, in economic terms?
You (and many others) seem to think that if a product or service is “important” enough, the laws of economics are suspended with respect to it, or may just be ignored. That is what I call the Tinker Bell Principle: Fairies will exist if enough little children believe in them.
gmorton on May 23 at 8:43 a.m.
JBlim wrote,
“On the contrary, our findings strengthen arguments that reform is needed to improve the relative performance of the U.S. health system on quality.”
Yes. That is their conclusion after they have adopted the “broad measure” of quality described in the essay – which embraces a number of parameters (“accessibility,” “equity,” etc.) which have nothing to do with quality as that term is normally understood.
Also, the belief which the essay examined – that “Health care in the US is the best in the world” – assumes the narrower, conventional sense of “quality,” not the re-defined sense adopted in the essay. It means that, for most medical conditions, you will be likely to find the state-of-the-art treatment in the US. It recognizes the fact that most of those state-of-the-art treatment protocols, like the lion’s share of “miracle” drugs and advanced medical devices, from streptomycin to reliable pacemakers to beta blockers to artificial heart valves, were developed in the US.
“US health care is the best in the world” means, “If you want the most advanced health care available in the world – and you can afford it – you’ll probably go to the US.” It has nothing to do with how many people can afford that care.
JBlim on May 23 at 6:54 p.m.
gmorton, nobody cares about who has the best health care for multi-millionaires.
Julia70 on May 23 at 7:12 p.m.
This country is going down the tube, thanks to the right wing selfish conservatives who don’t give a hoot for anybody but themselves, same attitude as the Romans, and they burned, same will happen to a country that cares nothing for anybody but the rich. and that would be this country, the flag as become toilet paper for the republicans.
Julia70 on May 23 at 7:13 p.m.
This country is going down the tube, thanks to the right wing selfish conservatives who don’t give a hoot for anybody but themselves, same attitude as the Romans, and they burned, same will happen to a country that cares nothing for anybody but the rich. and that would be this country, the flag has become toilet paper for the republicans.
Julia70 on May 23 at 7:17 p.m.
This country is going down the tube, thanks to the right wing selfish conservatives who don’t give a hoot for anybody but themselves, same attitude as the Romans, and they burned, same will happen to a country that cares nothing for anybody but the rich. and that would be this country, the flag has become toilet paper for the republicans. I forgot to add, that Idaho has become the training ground for the most extreme right wingers, Idaho land of the fascist, ever wonder why the Aryans choosed to come to Idaho, yep you got it right, the Idaho legislature is very symptomatic to the ideology of the party of Hitler.
gmorton on May 23 at 8:00 p.m.
JBlim wrote,
“… nobody cares about who has the best health care for multi-millionaires.”
They should, because catering to those millionaires, who can and will pay well for their treatment, is what drives medical progress. They constitute the initial market for new drugs and devices. Or they did, before the advent of the 3rd party payer system. Now the target market is insurers and the gummint.
selkirks on May 23 at 11:29 p.m.
@gmorton:
I can only imagine your dismay when I say that I want a single-payer system. And comprehensive climate change legislation. And the DREAM Act. And a comprehensive immigration reform bill that establishes entry paths and has some form of limited amnesty. And an end to the wars in the Middle East. And, most importantly, a tax increase to post-Bush levels for those making more than $250,000/year and a corresponding raid on corporate tax loopholes (GE should be paying taxes, as should ExxonMobil, BP, etc.). I’m so un-American for wanting to help people, aren’t I?
gmorton on May 24 at 11:01 a.m.
selkirks wrote,
“I’m so un-American for wanting to help people, aren’t I?”
By no means. Most Americans share your desire. Many of them, alas, want to “help people” with other people’s money. It’s easy to be charitable with someone else’s money, but it wins you no moral brownie points.
misjustice on May 26 at 10:34 p.m.
Which came first? The chicken or the egg?
; )