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November 18, 2011 in City
Shawn Vestal: Police oversight one thing, accountability another
Good news from the Spokane Police Guild: Despite appearances to the contrary, they’re not actually opposed to independent oversight of misconduct complaints.
I know. I was shocked, too. Somehow, I’d gotten the notion that, rather than not being opposed to a real ombudsman with true investigative authority, the police officers’ union had actually … opposed it. Opposed it every step of the way. Opposed it so much that they undercut the city’s year-old ordinance giving the ombudsman the ability to actually conduct his own investigations.
I guess I misunderstood all that.
“We’re not closed-minded as far as changes to the ombudsman ordinance,” said Ernie Wuthrich, guild president, in a recent news story.
And yet “not closed-minded” somehow doesn’t quite add up to “open-minded.” Neither Wuthrich nor Sgt. Joe Walker of the Spokane Police Lieutenants and Captains Association is ready to actually support an independent investigative authority outside the Spokane Police Department, something which is only, oh, desperately needed.
“We need to be careful about how we put that language together so that it protects the integrity of all investigations,” Wuthrich said. “When you start opening the door for the ombudsman to have independent investigative authority, what are you really talking about? … That needs to be defined by the city and guild.”
It’d be nice if it didn’t have to be defined by the guild, actually. It’d make a whole hell of a lot more sense if it didn’t need to be defined by the guild in any way, shape or form. But, stupid as it is, the city has included ombudsman rules in contract negotiations with the guild and now has proceeded – with some reason – as though it must continue to do so.
So here we are, stuck with the guild’s lack of understanding.
What are we really talking about?
Here’s a little help: We are talking about having an investigator who can look into allegations of police misconduct, without needing an OK from the investigated, and produce reports that are available to the public.
Everyone knows this. It is supremely uncomplicated. The idea is not failing here out of some lack of clarity. It is failing because the guild is fighting it.
Spokane adopted a new ombudsman ordinance, which granted the ombudsman the ability to conduct his own investigations, a year ago. The guild fought it and an arbitrator ruled that the expanded ombudsman ordinance violated the guild’s contract. The City Council, rather than spending more money on a court fight, backed off and undid the ordinance, though most everyone on the council seems committed to pursuing this kind of accountability.
Still, Wuthrich and the guild keep saying they’re not opposed to independent oversight. It’s kind of hard to understand.
“If there’s no problem, then why aren’t we there yet?” asked Councilman Richard Rush. “What are we waiting for?”
Rush, whose faith in the guild was such that he voted to take the matter to court, notes that the guild is entering contract negotiations. If they truly are open to this, now’s the time to prove it.
“If you don’t have a problem, show us the road map to adoption” of a tougher ordinance, he said. “Come to the table. Let’s do it.”
Important as the ombudsman is, the battle over police accountability goes deeper. We need a whole department that accepts accountability.
Sam Walker is a professor at the University of Nebraska and an expert on police oversight. He wrote a paper in 2005 about a notorious incident in Los Angeles, titled “What Real Police Accountability Looks Like: The ‘120 Shots’ Incident and the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department Response.”
In the “120 Shots” incident, deputies fired repeatedly at a moving car they believed was being driven by an armed suspect from a previous crime. The driver was hit twice; he was eventually found to be unarmed and an unlikely suspect in the earlier incident.
The police believed, in their understanding of the totality of the circumstances, that the man in the fleeing car posed a threat to them. They were wrong.
What happened next is almost impossible to believe.
The deputies union apologized to the community.
You read that correctly. Recognizing that some of their membership had overreacted and damaged its relationship with the public, the deputies did not start playing defense. They did not try to explain how necessary all those shots were. They did not salute the officers in court.
They apologized. All of them. Even the ones who had nothing to do with it, and even though they were careful, legally, not to admit wrongdoing.
The sheriff changed the department’s use-of-force policies within weeks. He disciplined 13 officers within a month.
“The response reflects a general culture of openness and responsiveness in the LASD, one that is quite different from the traditional ‘circle the wagons’ and deny any wrongdoing response,” Walker wrote. “In the end, this is what real police accountability looks like: acknowledging mistakes, promptly and openly imposing appropriate discipline, taking immediate preventive steps, having in place a process for identifying problems and initiating corrective measures. This is a style of accountability that other law enforcement agencies can and should emulate.”
Shawn Vestal can be reached at (509) 459-5431 or shawnv@ spokesman.com. Follow him on Twitter at @vestal13.
The draw of the unknowable 
Lewis on November 18 at 3:36 a.m.
the guild is most likely making plans to kill off anyone who finds some dirt on them so they are not worried and with tuckers head stuck in a wine flask there wont be anyone watching that can do anything.
Leo_Z on November 18 at 5:54 a.m.
Those that are not open to criticism probably need it the most. I like cops for the most part, many in the family. SPD is a different story. Dirty, dirty cops in SPD.
hunternomore on November 18 at 6:52 a.m.
I’m uncomfortable reading a newspaper article that includes the language “It’d make a whole HELL of a lot”. Certainly a journalist could find better English than that of swear of words to express an opinion.
brianrbreen on November 18 at 6:59 a.m.
Shawn Vestal
There is, and always has been a mechanism in place for independent oversight of the SPD. In my opinion one of the reasons it has not been utilized, and the City has contractually agreed with the Guild to have disciplinary matters settled secretly in arbitration, is because often times those secret arbitrations bring out misconduct on the part of city administrators. The Mehring case and others on there way have and will demonstrate just that.
Below I have provided links to Washington State Law concerning “Civil Service for city police”, and I copied from that a section which demonstrates the power vested with the commission, which you might note includes the investigation of petitions by citizens. Please also note the powers of the commission with respect to depositions and subpoenas. I also linked the most recent City of Spokane Civil Service Rules, which in my view could be changed and updated consistent with the law to provide for appropriate OPEN independent oversight, without the need to negotiate with the Guild. The appeal process from a Civil Service Commission finding is directly to Superior Court, which In my view would help to curtail costly civil litigation.
I believe the money now being spent for the Office of the Ombudsman would be better spent developing an investigative function within the Civil Service Commission which is consistent with Washington State Law and provides for citizen petition.
I really wish people would understand that the Ombudsman even with investigative authority has no power what so ever, and I could go on and on regarding that.
If I’m in error I hope someone will point it out to me.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=41.12
Chapter 41.12 RCW
Civil service for city police
(4) The commission shall make investigations concerning and report upon all matters touching the enforcement and effect of the provisions of this chapter, and the rules and regulations prescribed hereunder; inspect all institutions, departments, offices, places, positions, and employments affected by this chapter, and ascertain whether this chapter and all such rules and regulations are being obeyed. Such investigations may be made by the commission or by any commissioner designated by the commission for that purpose. Not only must these investigations be made by the commission, but the commission must make like investigation on petition of a citizen, duly verified, stating that irregularities or abuses exist, or setting forth in concise language, in writing, the necessity for such investigation. In the course of such investigation the commission or designated commissioner, or chief examiner, shall have the power to administer oaths, subpoena and require the attendance of witnesses and the production by them of books, papers, documents, and accounts appertaining to the investigation, and also to cause the deposition of witnesses residing within or without the state to be taken in the manner prescribed by law for like depositions in civil actions in the superior court; and the oaths administered hereunder and the subpoenas issued hereunder shall have the same force and effect as the oaths administered by a superior court judge in his or her judicial capacity; and the failure upon the part of any person so subpoenaed to comply with the provisions of this section shall be deemed a violation of this chapter, and punishable as such;
http://www.mrsc.org/govdocs/s73csrules.pdf
Sadbuttrue on November 18 at 7:11 a.m.
“The response reflects a general culture of openness and responsiveness in the LASD, one that is quite different from the traditional ‘circle the wagons’ and deny any wrongdoing response,” Walker wrote.
This is not as swell as it appears. The LAPD and LASD are operating under Federal consent decrees that weree imposed after the Rodney King riots and the breathtakingly vile RAMPARTS scandal (you know the one: where “cops” were heavily involved in contract murders, serial perjury to convict the innocent and drug trafficking?). The LA-area cops were every bit as nasty, deranged ruthless, violent and dishonest as the SPD until the LAPD went into involuntary Federal receivership (like they really had a choice!), having their minute day-to-day activities closely supervised and monitored by the Feds.
Behind the LAPD’s apparent “eagerness” to be open and responsive to the public, one can read the actual grudging spite this “eagerness” is conducted in internal internet accounts from the disgruntled, but legally-castrated and firmly-gelded street cops.
This is the end result of a pattern and practice investigation that has been requested by Spokane’s mayor. Forget the toothless ombudsmen farce: these savagely-violent and corrupt goons will not be nut-cutted until a similar Federal receivership is ruthlessly jacked down their throats and they are unceremoniously stripped of their collective bargaining rights.
The worst of the worst left the LAPD in a sudden huff. How do I know this? Many of them migrated to Spokane and North Idaho, and were hired by the local forces! This is the story that the Spokesman should be pursuing: How the deranged and unhinged rejects from the LA area Federal consent decrees have been hired by local forces, and have become involved in the same violent thuggery and corruption they left behind. This area is a magnet for the dishonorable and discredited and unemployable. It opens its arms wide to the bad ex-cops of the LAPD. Why has the Spokesman never covered this angle?
I bet behind every single unhinged and deadly encounter and every corrupt coverup that has occurred during Spokane’s recent deadly reign of terror there was inevitably the fingerprints of the disgraced alumni of the LAPD.
CA_target on November 18 at 7:19 a.m.
These police ‘guilds’ and ‘unions’ should be investigated for obstructing justice.
D Statler on November 18 at 7:38 a.m.
This sounds like an excellent way to legally do the RIGHT thing. Great job @ brianrbreen with your investigative tendencies. You would make an excellent commissioner. Lets hope our new Mayor and County Commissioners are reading this. This kind of reminds me of the constitution and the way American justice has detoured away from the original intentions of our founding fathers. Thanks Brian and Shawn for the attention you bring to this very needed change.
brianrbreen on November 18 at 8:00 a.m.
@undooley_prosecuted
Nothing new, even had discussions with Bob Van Leuven about it, and “@Tomsahl” might remember it was one of my points back in the day when civilian oversight was a big issue at the SPD.
Shelala on November 18 at 8:27 a.m.
Don’t know much about commissions, enlighten me. How are it’s members appointed/elected? Who appoints, if appointed? Is this just another political layer? Sadbuttrue is correct in his remark that our area and north Idaho saw an influx of former Cali law enforcement in prior years, but I am not sure to what extent. How many of those re-entered law enforcement positions in our area? Of all the controversial incidents (Creach, Thompson, etc), how many involved lateral transfer officers? In my opinion, Ozzie is to be commended for trying to step up and offer a solution, but we all know his agency has had its own similar issues with Creach, etc., although Ozzie was voted in and Kirpatrick was appointed.and the citizens have the ability to vote him out unlike Kirpatrick.
brianrbreen on November 18 at 8:39 a.m.
@Shelala
It’s pretty easy reading.
Agree, on Lateral transfers, they can sometimes be a problem.
Jethro_toll on November 18 at 8:46 a.m.
I caught an SPD officer REFUSING to provide their Badge #/ID # and the internal affairs did NOTHING once they proved that the officer refused the request.
I guess the SPD can pick and choose which rules they want to investigate and enforce.
We need to clean out the rotten corps of internal affairs and turn it over to Civilian Oversight…
Liberalsblow on November 18 at 9:24 a.m.
How about looking at this from the position of the guild.
They complained about a chief that was out of control and no one here backed them up. Well come to find out those allegations were backed up in the recent Mehring case and the $250000 that the chief gets to pay.
In that enviorment why would the guild give up more protections?
And then lets look at our Ombudsman. He origanally said he didn’t need investigative powers. Then he changed his story to protect his job.
Why not start with hiring an Ombudsman that is truly qualified to investigate. In fact he should be the best investigator around. Its not this guy. If the city gets a qualified person in the job then maybe the guild would have more confidence in the process.
de3 on November 18 at 9:40 a.m.
This is probably a surprise to the SPD officers and the guild, but they actually work for the taxpayers, are paid by the taxpayers and should be accountable to the taxpayers.
SPD is a police farce on par with the bumbling Keystone Cops. Shame on them.
nslopeofw on November 18 at 10:44 a.m.
Liberalsblow-
How about looking at this from the citizens standpoint? How many people have been killed by police in the last 5 years? I realize some of them are justified, but not all. I also realize that there are quite a bit of suspicious circumstances in some of these killings that have (just like Thompson) been found justifiable by the local LE.
I realize that local LE believe they are right, but a jury of his peers found Thompson guilty, so it no longer matters what they think. Throwing a salute, and showing undying support for a convicted felon is not going to help the public believe anything has changed. They, just like the rest of us, are bound by local and federal laws, and cant change them just because they are cops.
If all of the deaths by cop in the last 5-10 years were investigated by the feds, do you believe they would come out clean? I highly doubt it, and that is the problem the LE and the guild have to deal with. The public for the most part believes (right or wrong) that SPD, and the Sheriffs’ office are corrupt. Until its proven otherwise, local LE needs to open itself up to close observation, and allow itself to be controlled by those that pay for their salaries. If after a few years of scrutiny, everything looks good, then perhaps the guild would have a leg to stand on in terms of ethics with the community.
Liberalsblow on November 18 at 11:05 a.m.
why cant you guys ever stay on topic. We are talking about the Ombudsman.
So which ones have you investigated and found not justified?
If a county deputy shoots someone the SPD and the WSP investigate. Do you really think the feds can investigate all officer involved deaths in the country? are you willing to pay the taxes to support that?
No its just about 6-10 people here in this forum that believe in the corruption and the media beating the drum to sell air time and ad space.
Liberalsblow on November 18 at 11:17 a.m.
another thing:
The city has staffed the PD the same since the 70’s. We all know the world has changed since then.
Officer’s should refuse to go to any call that is not a simple report by themselves.
Thompson went on that call himself. If he had waited none of this would have happened.
Do you think that he didn’t know there was a video camera in the store. How often are convienence stores robbed? He knew there was a camera. He thought he had to act.
All cops should refuse to make any decision that can be put off if the public gets to monday morning qb it.
They should be like the fire dept. wait until its safe.
SpokoJoeSho_1 on November 18 at 12:34 p.m.
The guild only represents the best interests of its members, like unions are supposed to. They do not control investigations or steer the department. They can do little more than contract negotiation and provide benefits to its members.
When you look at cultural problems within an organization you have to look at its leadership. Who is steering the department? Who provides the vision and leadership for the department? You do not have to look any further than the Chief’s office and the Office of the Mayor. Those two offices play off of the public opinion that they tried but failed….really….I think its a case of employees following the examples given them from the highest offices.
hunternomore on November 18 at 3:45 p.m.
No, “liberalsblow” you don’t know what you are talking about. Maybe there are 6-10 people who actually comment on this blog. But the reality is that most people in Spokane know about the corruption, they just don’t have the courage to talk on-line about it.
brianrbreen on November 18 at 4:02 p.m.
@Liberalsblow
I realize how tough it might be to accept actual over sight that included some power including subpoenas and depositions. But if the SPD is going to slow it down, does that mean that cops like Blessing and Storch won’t get the back up they deserve. Just a question and just wondering. Or does that mean that there is a whole lot of cops out there that are just CS.
tomnsahl on November 18 at 4:28 p.m.
Interesting discussion … and in this string it appears almost all opinions are shared without the usual characters controlling or correcting others - as well as a minimum of name calling :))
Sean - while I respect your OPinion, you have not represented some issues factually. I trust/expect you and the SR staff to do that and when it is YOUR opinion (as is done by my old Saxon blowhard buddy Doug Clark) please say so.
Brian - I too suffer from memory loss, but am sure you tried to make suggestions for better accountability while @ SPD. In the 80’s when I (at the negotiation table and vertical staff meetings) suggested increased citizen input and oversight, even the City negotiator and some usually progressive thinking colleagues did not support the concept. As a result and predictably, public trust has suffered.
Good Officers @ SPD (of whom, most are) will have a very hard time standing up to what has been a vocal minority and yet oppressive tone of peer and administrative pressure. They need to be able to do their difficult, yet rewarding work without constantly looking over their shoulders. THAT makes their job even more dangerous.
brianrbreen on November 18 at 4:56 p.m.
@Tomsahl
You know me, still got the memo and I don’t suffer from memory loss…yet. That’s all I want is what you want. But it looks like it will be a battle, If you remember right, I wasn’t invited to the vertical staff meetings unless there was trouble.
Hall
Coe
Grammer
Spice
Sprague
Gentry
Newlun
Crabtree
And on and on, not like I haven’t been there done that. But what ever. We will fight it out.
I think lets see what Stevens has got, I wasn’t happy with some things, but I attributed it to lack of investigative experience, too much trust in subordinates, and believing the upper brass.
I may need Judith there to take care of my light work, at this point in my life maybe even my heavy work.
Shelala on November 18 at 7:50 p.m.
As an outsider looking in, it seems ridiculous to try an divide up the current force into good guys vs bad guys. Speaking as a citizen, you wouldn’t think it would be that difficult to reason out. Okay, I know I am over simplifying things and yadda, yadda, yadda, but seems to me that a complete overhaul is needed. If anyone of those “good guys” sees the need to object, he better be able to realistically demonstrate why he should be spared The whole group of “I dare you to discipline me” fabulous fifty saluters in the courtroom should find another career, along with the group of those choosing to make inflammatory remarks about the very public they serve and a few more. Yeah, you have the same constitutional rights as every other citizen. Cry me a river. You are supposed to be law enforcement officers who represent the citizens of our community and because of your position and training are held to a higher standard.You know who you are, Do the entire community a big favor and save us all a heap of money and move on. You are not irreplaceable, Seems to me I should be able to walk over to my local Zip Trip and a buy a pop and a snickers bar without being beat to death.
DickAdams on November 18 at 8:49 p.m.
???, Shawn? You start out;
“Good news from the Spokane Police Guild: Despite appearances to the contrary, they’re not actually opposed to independent oversight of misconduct complaints.”
Two things, Shawn. I`m going to let you buy the Monroe street bridge at a really low price, and you should defiantly put a tooth under your pillow tonight.
Lewis on November 18 at 10:04 p.m.
Liberalsblow Karl the Klubber was safe he beat a unarmed disabled man near death after he got a call the girls had called back saying no money was stolen but he chose to take Ottos life anyway.
How bout the cops stop acting like hit men and start acting like cops?
They dress like storm troopers.
Liberalsblow on November 19 at 7:21 a.m.
Lewis you are just an idiot to me that can’t form an intelligent argument.
Liberalsblow on November 19 at 7:24 a.m.
@Shelala
Officers did not give up their first ammendment rights with the job. Get over it.
What we have learned is the only thing the city understands is lawsuits. Please Please go after the saluters so they can shut up fools like you with large monetary awards.
brianrbreen on November 19 at 8:44 a.m.
@liberalsblow
You might want to take a look at the most recent SCOTUS decision regarding the issue.
Since Ron Wright has made a complaint regarding what transpired that day I would assume there is an IA investigation underway and the results of that will be very telling. regarding the intent of the Department to gain back the respect of the Citizens. My position is that because the salute was given, not in public, but in the sanctity of a federal courtroom there is in fact cause for disciple for those off duty. Those that were assigned to duty on that day it would appear are clearly subject to disciple for their actions in the court room, and if you believe Kirkpatrick’s public statement, also for violating a direct order. Different members of the SPD seem to have made conflicting public statements as to what the salute represented which may end up being problematic for the group.
You might remember the description in the media of the admonishment Judge Van Sickle gave to the audience at the following hearing. There was a reason for that.
Attempts can be made to try and justify the salute action any way one wants, but the facts are, it demonstrated very, very poor judgment and unprofessional conduct on the part of the entire group, to say nothing of the unprofessional conduct that transpired outside the court house.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/05pdf/04-473.pdf
brianrbreen on November 19 at 9:20 a.m.
@liberalsblow
You might note in my post above I stated “if you believe Kirkpatrick’s public statement”. You may be aware that a PDR has been submitted requesting any and all documents regarding that direct order.
If there was no such order, that is an entirely different issue isn’t it.
The best thing for the Guild to do at this point is to have the membership get together and formulate a public apology for the actions of a few officers without in any way trying to mitigate the poor judgment that was demonstrated.
I would hope that some members of that group are preparing individual letters of apology to the media for their own actions outside the court house.
Liberalsblow on November 19 at 11:36 a.m.
if they need to apologize for exercising their first ammendment rights then you should apologize here for all the falsehoods that you spead exercising yours.
Do you really think by now that some of these people haven’t submitted the necesary time off.
I wonder if Officers attended any of the other court cases of interest in the past few years before this? Do you really think they could go there on duty?
You really must have been a joke as a detective
Shelala on November 19 at 11:40 a.m.
@liberalsblow.
It is interesting that you suggest lawsuits as a reaction to the public outcry against the saluting 50. These same people who showed their blatant contempt for a judicial decision in a federal courtroom and offered support for a convicted felon are now gonna ask that same judicial system they disrespected to award them some type of damages? Give me a break. Trial by media? Why do you think it is that that every dictator who wants to overthrow the government and gain control or strong arm the population has to gain control of the media and shut them down as one of the first actions? Obviously, this is not a government coup, but it speaks to the power of the media and its ability to keep responsible citizens informed. I admit I have flipped through a Enquirer or other news rag while waiting in the check out line at a grocery store. I read about martians invading Hollywood, I didn’t believe it. I have a brain and am capable of independent thought. What I personally am waiting fo be reported is a complete breakdown as to how much this fiasco has cost in tax dollars. Exactly, to the penny and where all the wriistband and public donations went to pay for and how much was collected. I’d like to know how much it costs to rid the city of one bad cop and how much of collective tax payer money it takes to bring even one of the bad eggs to justice. I think about that every time I pay my utility bills or look at the amount of taxes taken out of my paycheck.
brianrbreen on November 19 at 11:51 a.m.
Yep I was!
Oh I’m sure they have submitted comp or vacation cards post incident. When I was joking around I saw that a few times, one in particular stands out, the cop ended up doing prison time.
It will be interesting to see what happens. You aren’t worried are you?
nslopeofw on November 19 at 11:36 p.m.
I like the way Liberalsblow does the “blah, blah, blah” thing when (s)he cant come up with an argument that is relevant. Sorry dude(ette), you just keep coming off as a holier than thou LEO who will never believe anything except what their LE buddies (one of who is now a convicted felon) claim.
That is why you continue to look like a buffoon. Look at the facts!
Fact #1)Karl Thompson was convicted of violation of a citizens rights.
Fact#2) Karl Thompson was convicted of LYING to cover up the FACT that he violated a citizens rights.
Fact#3) About 50 of your fellow officers VIOLATED the judges order about showing emotion in the court room when they CHOSE to salute a convicted LIAR. Not to mention, showed a complete lack of ethics for doing it in front of the victims family.
When you spout off your rhetoric, including your ridiculous belief that all of those that no longer trust LE are liberals, you continue to look like one of the LEO’s that we no long want working in Spokane.
And, lastly, no one cares if the guild complained about the chief. Its obvious she wanted to change the way things were, and you and the guild wanted business as usual. Well, now the guild has no choice, things are going to change. She wont be there, so there should be no more excuses.
Liberalsblow on November 20 at 2:14 p.m.
@nslopeofw
never said I was LE
your fact 3 is not a fact at all. The judges order was at the SECOND hearing. The salute occurred at the First. You truly are a moron
I never said all people but LE were liberals. Another fact wrong.
Your right about one thing. No one cared when the guild complained.
Now the citizens get to pay millions. Its just getting started.
Mehring, Harvey……….
brianrbreen on November 20 at 2:29 p.m.
@liberalsblow
“Your right about one thing. No one cared when the guild complained.”
You might go back and look. I cared and expressed it many times. Mehring a good cop got screwed. Harvey also got screwed, and decisions left and right were idiotic. But the way the Guild was so stupid in how they handled the no confidence vote, and other things brought them just what they deserved.
The same stupid way the “salute is being handled”.
misjustice on November 20 at 2:55 p.m.
I have a salute for the Thompson 505 50; it’s my middle finger!
brianrbreen on November 20 at 3:23 p.m.
@Greenlibertarian
I might be a crack smokin, moron, idiot, joke, who couldn’t track an elephant with a nose bleed in a snow storm. But I would like to believe if I was suing someone I would have sense enough to do like my lawyer advised, keep my mouth shut and not discuss anything with anyone anywhere that might make it appear that I am exactly what I was accused of being.
Liberalsblow on November 20 at 5:30 p.m.
@Breen
You are correct. You did express concen on those issues.
Finally we can agree on something. The no confidence vote was stupid of the guild.