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November 22, 2011 in City
Sales tax increase, cuts sought
Governor urges lawmakers’ support for March referendum
Washington Gov. Chris Gregoire speaks at a press conference where she announced proposed budget cuts and said she’d ask voters to raise the state sales tax by half a penny.
(Full-size photo)
OLYMPIA – Washington voters could be asked to approve a half-cent sales tax increase next March to help replace a portion of the $1.7 billion in cuts the Legislature will face when it convenes next week for a special session.
Gov. Chris Gregoire said this morning she would propose an “all-cuts” budget that will affect schools, colleges, social services for the poor and elderly, and public safety.
“You will see more devastating cuts,” Gregoire said.
She will also ask legislators to let voters approve, through a March referendum, raising the state’s sales tax from 6.5 percent to 7 percent for three years, starting in August.
That would raise an estimated $494 million in fiscal 2013, which the referendum would require to be split so that $411 million goes to offset proposed cuts to education, $42 million would offset proposed cuts to long-term care and developmental disability services and $41 million would replace proposed cuts to public safety programs.
Gregoire denied that she was proposing cuts to key programs as a “scare tactic” to push through a tax increase.
“These are not hypothetical cuts, they are real,” she said. “I’m being honest with the people of Washington.”
The referendum would need a simple majority from both houses of the Legislature to be put on a statewide ballot in March, and a simple majority from voters to become law.
To pass it simply by legislative action would require a two-thirds majority of both houses, which Gregoire, a Democrat who will be in the final year of her term next year, said was unlikely. Her party holds a majority in each house, but not a supermajority. Some conservative Democrats in the Senate often side with Republicans on tax issues.
At a morning news conference, Gregoire laid out her proposed supplemental budget, which would cut:
• $500 million from public schools and colleges.
• $384 million from social and human services.
• $274 million from health services.
• $111 million from general government.
• $87 million from prisons and other public safety programs.
• $16 million from natural resource programs.
Among the cuts to education that she’s proposing are the reduction of levy equalization payments to some school districts and the elimination of those payments to others. Such payments provide a state match to help districts that have relatively lower property values.
Gregoire is also asking the Legislature to save $99 million by eliminating four days from the 2012-’13 school year; that’s an alternative to raising class sizes in grades 4-12, which she had suggested last month.
State colleges and universities would see a $160 million reduction in state support through mid-2013.
But those three cuts would not take place if the sales tax increase is approved, she said.
Democratic legislative leaders commended Gregoire for her willingness to propose a tax increase, but didn’t rush to support a higher sales tax.
“The governor’s proposed budget reflects how few options remain open to the state,” Senate Majority Leader Lisa Brown of Spokane and Ways and Means Committee Chairman Ed Murray of Seattle said in a prepared statement.
House Speaker Frank Chopp, D-Seattle, said he was “heartened” Gregoire proposed tax increases. “We owe it to our school children, to our citizens with disabilities and, frankly, to the future of our state to have a discussion about alternatives.”
But Republicans were critical. Senate Minority Leader Mike Hewitt, R-Walla Walla, said the state should look for significant reforms. “Instead, her ‘solution’ is to go straight for revenue.
“To talk about raising taxes at a time when people are out of work and can’t afford it suggests an insensitivity to what the citizens of this state are going through,” Hewitt said in a prepared statement.
House Minority Leader Richard DeBolt, R-Chehalis, accused Gregoire of holding key programs for education, public safety and the poor “hostage” in an effort to push through a tax increase when state residents can least afford it. Instead, the state should prioritize programs while “unleashing the power of the private sector to create jobs.”
To get the referendum on a special election ballot for March 13 as Gregoire proposes, the Legislature would have to approve it during the 30-day special session that begins Monday. Because of deadlines for printing a voter pamphlet, legislators couldn’t put the decision off until the regular session begins in early January.
Tim Eyman, who has sponsored a series of tax-limiting ballot measures over the last decade, said the suggestion that the tax would be temporary, and that it could be dedicated to certain programs, was “laughable.”
“That’s not the way Olympia works – they move money from one account to another,” Eyman said.
Some groups denounced the proposed cuts to state services but supported the call for a tax increase to restore some of them. “Harmful cuts that will hurt people of all ages and weaken our economy are not the only option,” the AARP said in a prepared statement.
The Washington State Budget and Policy Center, a progressive group, said the sales tax increase was a short-term solution, but the state needs a long-term reform, such as a capital gains tax that the organization is pushing.
Gregoire said a capital gains tax isn’t really an option for generating revenue in the short-term because without an income tax, Washington doesn’t have an easy way to collect it.
Supermajority for taxes unconstitutional, judge rules 
Jethro_toll on November 22 at 12:31 a.m.
Sales tax increase? Not gonna happen.
Cut all state employees pay over $100,000? Not gonna happen.
Balance the State budget with our lame spend spend pork legistlators? Not gonna happen.
Get rid of tax loopholes for the big fat cat companies? Not Gonna Happen.
Legislators gonna waste a lot of time on the uneccesary session? Gonna Happen
State going to go like Californa? Gonna Happen.
Gregoire remembered as WORST governor? Yep Gonna Happen.
Where is that $2 Billion tobacco settlement Gregoire squandered on State Employee raises?
Who is responsible for the $2 million cell phone fiasco?
Whats Gary Locke done for Washington? Send more of our jobs to his home of China.
Brian Sontagg for Governor and forget those other two clowns.
DHF on November 22 at 5:14 a.m.
This is what you get for spending more than you take in and not listening to the voters who wanted a Rainy Day fund. Now you the Liberal Dems want to tax me more. I dont think so. We need a change in the Gov. and the liberal democratic legislature who got us into this mess. NO MORE TAXES.
JBlim on November 22 at 5:23 a.m.
I’m OK with a measly 1/2 cent. Republican whiners want something for nothing, they want government services but refuse to pay for them. They cite their convenient, self-serving right-wing ideology as an excuse and try to blame Democrats and the other grown-ups in the room. Wah wah wah . . .
DHF on November 22 at 5:47 a.m.
(JBlim) Its not about wanting something for nothing. I am a former 39 year Wa. State emp and have no political party. I can give you this personal observation that I would never trust them with my check book. I believe that you are somewhat askew on your facts. ( Do Hogs Fly)
wobble506 on November 22 at 6:01 a.m.
Reading this, I thought I was on the funny pages for a moment.
Some of the best lines -
“It will only last 3 yrs, and then go away”
“they would only use it for 3 funds”
“Gregoire denied that she was proposing cuts to key programs as a “scare tactic” to push through a tax increase”
And finally, my favorite -
““I’m being honest with the people of Washington.”
That would be a first
metaline on November 22 at 6:16 a.m.
The Dems and King County have been running this state for decades. It’s laughable to blame the GOP for any of this mess.
Cut DOE to the bone. They are killing us.
JBlim on November 22 at 6:20 a.m.
DHF: “I am a former 39 year Wa. State emp and have no political party. I can give you this personal observation that I would never trust them with my check book.”
You mean the checkbook that contains your monthly state pension check? Nobody gets the fat pensions anymore. What would you know about the the way the state runs today? After all the budget cuts it’s probably nothing like when you worked there.
JBlim on November 22 at 6:25 a.m.
metaline says: “It’s laughable to blame the GOP for any of this mess.”
George W Bush and his stupid wars and tax cuts trashed the economy at the national level. ALL states have severe budget problems, even those run by Republicans. The downturn in revenue is the result of the weak national economy and has nothing to do with voters in King County.
skierdc1 on November 22 at 6:32 a.m.
in re: JBlim. I don’t know about you but 39 years working somewhere is a hell of a long time to observe and I doubt government has changed much at all. Still grossly unaccountable and not held to any performance standard while always ready to spend someone else’s money. You make a weak ad hominem attack on DHM-do you have anything of substance to offer other then you can’t refute his/hers experience?!? Prove the attitude and actions of government is any different or isn’t the proposal to raise our taxes proof enough that you are wrong?
RedCedar on November 22 at 6:41 a.m.
JBlim, you may be okay with the tax increase, but let’s be honest about the increase. It’s a 7.7% increase in the state sales tax. 7.7% is a significant amount. What will the state do when it’s collecting 7.7% more money in sales tax than it is today? I also want to know what the baseline is for those “cuts” Ms. Gregoire is proposing. Are they real cuts or are they cuts relative to a baseline-projected increase? After several years of “cutting” is the state actually spending less money than it was a few years ago?
soccermomsusie on November 22 at 6:57 a.m.
Why should I pay 2.5 cents more for my Grande chocolate-covered-cherry latte Macchiatto with Geritol shot at Starbucks? NO WAY!!!
This is going to cut into my lottery money (which goes to support education), my casino money (supporting Indians) and my liquor store money (supporting socialist Chrisfiend Jagwire).
As we are poised on making a major purchase (trading the Toyota Priapism in for a Hummer) I now might not be able to afford the heated floormats.
It is tough enough scraping by on multiple disability checks, medicare and social security. That the government wants more from me is ridiculous! GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY LIFE!!!
Sure GWB and we Republicans destroyed our economy, but it was done to fulfill Biblical Prophecy.
NO TAXES! NO REGULATIONS! FILL THE POT HOLES! ERASE THE BIKE LANES! CHOP THE TREES DOWN! THROW AWAY THE RECYCLING BINS! STUD THE TIRES!
HEAR OUR VOICE!!!
Orphan on November 22 at 7:20 a.m.
If We the People allow this they will just ask for more and more until we say no so we might as well just do it now. Last time I checked we were the 8 highest taxed state in the nation. If we were 45th a tax increase could make sense but not at 8th.
I’m voting no.
JBlim on November 22 at 7:28 a.m.
Most states have an income tax. Washington has done well without it. Quit your whining. You expect the state to get by without sufficient revenues. C’mon and face reality, Republicans. You guys have been living in fantasyland long enough already.
DickAdams on November 22 at 7:31 a.m.
George W Bush`s fault,Jblim? Seems to me, Jblim is the poster that is fixated and his moronic logic always pointing his finger at W is hilarious. I`m done reading his rubbish the same as other posters! Blim is out to lunch. I`d wager he is included in the 47% not paying a red dime of federal income tax. I`ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say, the amount I pay in Federal income tax is far greater than his 1040 and other forms I`m required to use..
Jethro_toll on November 22 at 7:31 a.m.
I’d take the 1/2 cent tax increase if they got rid of some of the other nefarious taxes.
They should make that 1/2 cent tax increase on anyone who makes more than $75K.
er time to buy that Hummv or motorhome before the taxes go UP UP UP.
The_Seer on November 22 at 7:41 a.m.
The ignorance on this thread is typical of the daily diatribe of diarreah one needs to wade through in order to find one or two people who make sense and know what they are talking about.
I particularly enjoy the anti-state spending rant from a pensioneer who worked for the state 39 years. You could float a manhole cover on that irony…
State spending has been cut 10.5 billion dollars over the last three years and taxes haven’t increased a dime to offset any of those cuts. For all of the Orphans, Dickedadams, et.al. who want to live in states with small government and low taxes (I dare you to find one that isn’t being supported by other states) then move. Most of the citizens in Washington enjoy the benefits of living in a Welfare State and are willing to pay for it.
Cut the sales tax and impose a 4% tax on income with no exemptions. I want some of that Bill Gates and Paul Allen money!
SpokoJoeSho_1 on November 22 at 8:51 a.m.
Cut Social Programs…welfare brats will move out of this state and soak another state to the brink of being bankrupt. We would then have a balanced budget….no more freebies.
I want Government to quit feeding the lazy and immature. We make it too easy for those who take and do not give back to proverbial spending pot.
Apparently those of us who earn money should have to spend more of it so that those irresponsible state politicians do not have to make the hard and unpopular choices. I am not going to bail them out this time.
soccermomsusie on November 22 at 9:06 a.m.
She could have at least used a pumpkin pie chart.
WHY DOES CHRISFIEND HATE AMERICA!?!
I GIVE THANKS FOR MY FREEDOMS THAT THE PILGRIMS KILLED FOR!!
HEAR OUR VOICE!!!
Benaround on November 22 at 9:07 a.m.
Seer:
It is very rude to state falsehoods to people you call ignorant.The State of Washington’s own web site shows State Budget
Expenditures as follows by year /amount: 2007/ 28.2 (Billion…)
2008/ 30.6 Billion 2009/ 33.4Billion 2010/33.7 (Billion)
In past decade spending has increased 66%. (Since 2000)
To say State Spending has been cut 10.5 Billion past 3 yrs. when
that is so false allows me and others to give anything you
say little value to any discussion.
Orphan on November 22 at 9:10 a.m.
Seer
Washington spends too much money, nuff said.
neanders on November 22 at 9:17 a.m.
Benaround, that’s an interesting statistic when contrasted against average annual population growth of ~1%, and inflation growth of ~3-4%. Makes one wonder what we’re spending all that money on. At least it won’t be liquor distribution and sales…
Lulubelle on November 22 at 9:21 a.m.
Sales tax further penalizes low income families that must spend every dime to just keep food on the table a roof overhead. Unfortunately Washingtonians won’t even entertain the idea of an income tax with a reduction in sales tax. And our Republican legislators have stopped every effort to close corporate tax loopholes. Spokane, being less prosperous and needing more State services than cities on the West side, will continue to struggle with rising poverty and unequal access to the basics.
When relocating to Eastern WA 15 years ago I sensed a grubby stinginess in the mindset of the region….nothing in the ensuing years has changed my opinion.
westerly on November 22 at 10:11 a.m.
More taxes to keep the pigs fat and happy in Olympia…no diet for them!
The_Seer on November 22 at 10:22 a.m.
ben: Follow these links to the truth.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/04/us-economy-washingtonstate-spending-cuts-idUSTRE7A382K20111104
These cuts in state spending across the nation are deepening and prolonging the recession and are completely unecessary. State spending did not cause the recession. Wall Street did. Make them pay for it with a financial transaction tax imposed on every trade they make. That includes the millions of trades performed by computers every hour. We’ll soon discover that the manipulation of markets by computer algorithms will cease if the investment bankers are forced to pay for each time they decide to gamble with our economy.
lulubelle: You are correct and residents of this region cling to that “grubby stinginess” like Linus and his security blanket. What is ironic about such a situation is that the liberal West-side of the state has to support the east-siders with their tax dollars. I’m sure the people on the west-side of the state wish they could cut us loose and allow us to create a small government haven that would attract businesses and the smartest and brightest people in the nation. We could even give out free copies of Ayn Rand books!
Which brings me to another point: I’m trying to get Rand banned from being taught in our school. Currently, a single teacher still includes “Anthem” for her 9th grade language arts class and encourages a “biography free” reading of the text. This means she doesn’t want students to know about Rand’s lifelong addiction to amphetamines, the medicare fraud she committed later in life, her marital infidelity, and the fact that most serious scholars of literature consider her work sophomoric at best and unworthy of considered literary criticism.
Suppor the Rand Ban!
bez233 on November 22 at 10:22 a.m.
The sad and pathetic thing about raising taxes is it doesn’t matter how much “they” raise taxes “they” will always run a deficit. It wouldn’t matter if taxes were raised 100% every year, “they” would still be broke.
Plus the unions constant attack to the budget is one of the biggest PROBLEMS. Blanket pay hikes (collective bargaining) is why there are less jobs, and why schools must close, and streets have potholes because of their constant need for greed. That is why there are so called shortfalls, because the budget can not longer support the excessive wages. It is beyond reasonable.
There needs to be more outsourcing.
The_Seer on November 22 at 10:29 a.m.
benaround: Care to post a link to the nonsense you wrote about increases in state spending over the last three years? Well?
I will, in order to show you what I mean about the ignorance that abounds on these threads.
http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget/info/0509balance.pdf
gotcha on November 22 at 10:52 a.m.
Give goverments perfectly good monopolys and they go broke. How could anyone go broke when you have a monopoly? Easy !! Put politicans in charge that have been bought by Unions.. Hire some hard working Public Sector employees, “wink, wink,” than allow them to Unionize and presto another failed monopoly.. Than send the tax payers the bills until they bleed to death.
neanders on November 22 at 11:10 a.m.
High level budget #’s from the State’s own website:
http://fiscal.wa.gov/budgets.aspx
High level expenditure #’s from the State’s own website:
http://fiscal.wa.gov/expenditures.aspx
Benaround on November 22 at 11:16 a.m.
Seer:
You obtain Washington State Budget Expenditures
from…are you ready for this ? …better sit down:
The State of Washington. My favorite one is
fiscal wa.gov/Expenditures.
Expenditures show 2yr expenditures at a time because
the money is spent per 2yr budget cycles. Last 5 budget
cycles (10years) were (In billions):
50 …53 …61 …68 …71… These are the States numbers
rounded up to nearest billions of dollars. If you don’t like
the numbers, then call Christine an ignorant liar. This is the
money they spent…not money they WANTED TO SPEND.
neanders on November 22 at 11:18 a.m.
Some further detail:
http://fiscal.wa.gov/FRViewer.aspx?Rpt=Recast%20History%20Expenditure%20Statewide%20Summary
So, while it looks like General fund expenditures decreased from the 07-09 Biennium to the 09-11 Biennium, overall spending increased over $2B, and is projected to increase over $3B in the 11-13 Biennium.
ManleyPointer on November 22 at 11:19 a.m.
Let’s start by busting the public employees’ unions.
Benaround on November 22 at 11:20 a.m.
I got link wrong…correct link is in post above from
NEANDERS (thanks)
The_Seer on November 22 at 11:30 a.m.
benaround: My links are correct and demonstrably show that spending has been cut over the last three years. The reason budget number reflect small increases are due to contracted COLA’s for entitlement programs. The rate of increase in spending has halted to zero when adjusted for inflation. State revenue collections have been hampered for nearly twenty years because of Eyman initiatives and the stupid voters who vote for them. I still can’t understand why so many people on this side of the state are against policies promoted and adopted by the more liberal west side of Washington. Is it that you prefer to bite the hand that feeds?
neanders on November 22 at 11:42 a.m.
Seer,
I think your numbers are ‘partially’ correct. The link you provided shows only general fund expenditures, which have decreased from the 07-09 biennium, but total expenditures have increased from ~$68.5B to ~$70.6B, or approx 3%. So, after factoring in inflation and the fact that we budget in two year cycles, the cuts have resulted in an increase in dollars spent (but a loss of spending power), while the state has shown population growth of ~2% over that same period. I think the most telling two things of the last link I provided is that DSHS spending has been slashed to pre 99-01 levels, while public school spending has remained essentially flat.
gotcha on November 22 at 12:02 p.m.
Socialism breeds mediocracy, and our Public Sector is full of it.
nslopeofw on November 22 at 12:03 p.m.
Jblim can move to a state with an income and sales tax. Then he can write back to us about how great things are there. What a spend, spend, spend, demo maroon.
RedCedar on November 22 at 12:09 p.m.
I’m glad to see folks here digging into the state’s own budget numbers and figuring out just what a “cut” really means. The short answer seems to be that some expenditures have indeed been reduced in recent years, but total expenditures continue to go up with every budget cycle. Since the state is constitutionally required to run a balanced budget, increased expenditures (regardless of the cause) require increased tax collections. If the economy was expanding faster than government expenditures, applying the current tax rate to a greater amount of economic activity would suffice to cover the increased expenditures, but since the economy is not expanding, they have to raise the tax rate on the existing stagnant level of sales. Either that or hold overall state expenditures flat to match the flat economy.
gotcha on November 22 at 12:48 p.m.
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit.. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
Orphan on November 22 at 2:55 p.m.
So Seer now you want to ban certain authors because you dont agree with them, wow your one freedom loving individual.
I fully support your right to say it and hope you continue because it shows your real politics and goals, control over everyone else. No opposing ideas allowed in Seer’s perfect world.
People like Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Amin et al banned books and authors.
The_Seer on November 22 at 3:34 p.m.
orphan: Where did I advocate a “ban on certain authors?” I simply stated I am trying to have Ayn Rand’s “book” Anthem removed from our curriculum for a variety of reasons that I clearly stated. She’s not considered an author worthy of inclusion in the academic canon of literature by most whose field of expertise is literature. Her lifestyle was amoral and hardly an example for children or impressionable teens.
IBChuck on November 22 at 3:50 p.m.
So lets look at the actual expenditures found at http://fiscal.wa.gov/FRViewer.aspx?Rpt=Recast%20History%20Expenditure%20Statewide%20Summary. It’s possible to see exactly how much was spent in each biennium until we come to the 2011-2013 projected budget. The numbers for that period seems to be skewed due to a large projection for the Washington State Health Care Authority – an extra $10 billion. Since it seems unreasonable to use an inflated projection for the State’s responsibility on Medicare, Medicaid, and Basic Health until the Supreme Court rules on the Affordable Health Care Act, keeping that projection flat seems reasonable.
If we keep that expenditure the same as the last biennium then we can see the budget jumped 10.98% between 01 and 03; 6.68% between 03 and 05; 13.65% between 05 and 07: 13.5% between 07 and 09; only 1.13% between 09 and 11; and a drop of 6.7% between 11 and 13.
There have been demonstrated and painful cuts the last few years and because our state tax structure is primarily based on property values, it’s going to be many years before we get our tax base back to where it was before the recession hit us. Because property taxes are based on property values and since property values have decreased so greatly, everybody in this state (who owns property) is going to get a tax break automatically. Paying a small increase in the sales tax – while regressive – seems a small price to pay to keep our schools, or our state, flush.
Rand on November 22 at 4:28 p.m.
Seer you’re just pissed that I don’t want to subsidize your jogging and spring board diving lesson at SCC for $97 per credit anymore. By the way I can see why you are so threatened by Anthem. The future were it up to you and your types is a very scary place indeed.
JBlim on November 22 at 9:05 p.m.
Sorry, Rightards, the Republican no-tax fantasy world is about over. Time to grow up now. Another failed ideology bites the dust. What good are Republicans without the mindless no-tax mantra? That’s right, nuthin’
Pigrobin on November 22 at 9:14 p.m.
JBlim, when did they clear me of any tax responsibility? I missed that memo. I always thought it was the Dems were the party of no ideas and the Repubs were the party of bad ideas…at least that’s the way Lewis Black called it. Sounds like you subscribe blindly to the no idea party. I recommend you start looking at more sides than just one, staring at a blank wall must get boring.
Rand on November 22 at 10:17 p.m.
Oh look at the true colors shine from leftist jblim. I guess as long as you outsource your compassion to the government then you are off the hook for acting in an adult way.
The_Seer on November 23 at 9:40 a.m.
rand: I’m not scared at all of the future. I’m mainly concerned with right now and rarely think about the past.
Anthem is not a threat to anyone with critical thinking skills and I’ve outlined my objections to Rand’s “work.” I’m sorry to learn you believe a meth head who committed Medicare fraud is great example for our youth.
Physical education credits are required for graduation from college, requirements that are set by the state Higher Education board, not local colleges. You’d know that if you put down your New Republic magazines and actually lived in the real world. The general public has access to the athletic facilities of state owned institutions of higher learning for a nominal fee so their benefit is available not only to students. A fit and healthy public saves more money to taxpayers than cutting any Physical Education program would ever realize.
Thanks for playing!
Rand on November 23 at 1:11 p.m.
It’s strange how many great uses you have for my money. Maybe if you were better with yours you would understand my point.
Liberalism, ideas so great they have to be mandatory.
The_Seer on November 23 at 1:32 p.m.
rand: “Your” money? Are you the first person to earn what you did in a vacuum? Bagger, please.
“What did liberals do that was so offensive to the Republican party? I’ll tell you what they did. Liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote. Liberals created Social Security and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty. Liberals ended segregation. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. Liberals created Medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act. What did conservatives do? They opposed them on every one of those things every one. So when you try to hurl that label at my feet, ‘Liberal,’ as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won’t work, Senator. Because I will pick up that label and I will wear it as a badge of honor.”
And what did conservatives do? They opposed them on every one. So when you try to hurl that label “Liberal” at my feet, as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won’t work, because I will pick up that label and I will wear it as a badge of honor.”
Lawrence O’Donnell Jr.
Rand on November 23 at 4:30 p.m.
Seer you can’t even cut and paste correctly. If you can’t do something that simple why do you think we should ever listen to you on anything more complicated. Posting a comment from someone who calls himself a socialist really proves your point and I guess your point was that you shouldn’t be taken seriously. I know I should never enter a pissing contest with someone who lacks depth perception but sometimes it is just too fun.
Rand on November 23 at 4:31 p.m.
And yes seer my money as it sure as hell isn’t yours no matter how badly you want it.