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October 26, 2011 in City
Backup officer takes stand
Testifies that he and Thompson were unable to control Zehm
YAKIMA – Spokane police Officer Steven Braun Jr. gave the jury an image of Otto Zehm as someone who probably had committed a robbery, was trying to flee and then struggled violently against Officer Karl F. Thompson Jr.
Braun provided details of the confrontation not captured on surveillance video from the north Spokane Zip Trip. Braun, the second officer to respond that night, described what he heard from dispatchers on March 18, 2006.
The initial call from Allison Smith and Makenzie Murcar was for a suspicious circumstance around a nearby ATM. The girls erroneously believed that Zehm, who had his paycheck with him, had stolen money out of one of the girls’ accounts.
Defense attorney Carl Oreskovich asked Braun why it was significant when a dispatcher said Zehm had their money.
“I was thinking that a robbery had taken place,” Braun said. “Robbery is taking something through force or fear.”
The trial, in which Thompson faces the charges of using unreasonable force and lying to investigators, continues today with potential witnesses including now-retired Detective Terry Ferguson. Ferguson, the lead investigator, determined that Thompson had committed no crime even though several witnesses said Thompson used head strikes, which would constitute lethal force.
Oreskovich told the jury in his opening statement that Thompson would take the stand. But he was not among the list of 11 witnesses that Oreskovich told U.S. District Court Judge Fred Van Sickle would be called in the next two days. Oreskovich said he expects to wrap up the defense sometime Thursday morning.
Only four witnesses testified Tuesday.
Braun, who is 6-foot-4, 280 pounds, said he found Thompson either kneeling or bent over struggling with Zehm – a 36-year-old janitor with paranoid schizophrenia – in the center aisle of the Zip Trip. He said Zehm was sitting and flailing his arms with closed fists, which he did not see connect with Thompson.
“When I first walk in I could see Mr. Zehm on the floor in a seated postion with arms moving back and forth in a punching motion and Officer Thompson next to him,” Braun said. “I pulled out my side handle baton and delivered three or four power jabs to the left side of Mr. Zehm’s rib cage.”
Braun said he repeatedly told Zehm to stop resisting and shocked Zehm three times with a Taser with no apparent effect. Both officers together were unable to control Zehm, who continued to scream, grunt and growl, Braun said.
“I had my right shin across his left jaw,” Braun said. “He was able to push my body weight off of him.”
Soon, five more officers arrived and were able to hog-tie Zehm before he stopped breathing. He died two days later, without regaining consciousness.
Assistant U.S. Attorney Aine Ahmed cross-examined Braun and asked him about an hourlong pre-interview with Ferguson before he gave his tape-recorded statement.
“I don’t know what happened during that pre-interview,” Braun said. “I don’t recall.”
During the struggle “you saw (Zehm) holding his paycheck in his hand. Correct?” Ahmed asked. Braun replied: “That’s what it later was discovered he was holding.”
Braun also said that he reviewed the surveillance video with Assistant City Attorney Rocky Treppiedi before giving grand jury testimony in 2009.
Braun told the grand jury Zehm looked up and seemed surprised to see another officer.
But on Tuesday, Braun said Zehm looked at him in the eyes and “when he kicked me, he was acquiring a target.”
Ahmed immediately asked, “Is that the first time you described that?” Braun responded: “I believe so.”
After Braun, Oreskovich called forensic video expert Michael Schott. Although his testimony took most the afternoon, his analysis focused on 49 seconds of video where Zehm could not be seen during the struggle with Thompson.
Earlier Tuesday, defense attorneys called Dr. Dan Davis, a forensic pathologist, who is the second defense expert to testify that he found no evidence of baton strikes to Zehm’s head.
Autopsy photos showing bleeding under Zehm’s scalp probably represents “blunt impact injuries on the head without any evidence of an instrument depression. These are characteristic of someone who bangs their head on the floor or something firm,” Davis said.
Davis also gave an alternative theory for how Zehm suffered those injuries during his struggle with Thompson on March 18, 2006.
“These could also be traction injuries, such as grabbing a handful of hair and pulling very hard. That would not result in any bruising of the scalp.”
Prosecution medical experts both testified they believed Zehm’s head wounds came from baton strikes, which were described by several witnesses. Davis said he disagreed.
Also testifying Tuesday was Pat Conley, an owner of the White Elephant store on North Division.
That store sits about 100 feet away from the Zip Trip where Thompson confronted Zehm. Conley said he and his brother were just locking up the store on March 18, 2006, when he noticed a police car parked at an odd angle at the convenience store.
Conley said he walked over to investigate and saw Thompson struggling with Zehm.
Other officers arrived but Zehm continued to struggle, Conley said.
“I was hearing officers say ‘calm down.’ (Zehm) was spitting and growling,” Conley said.
Ahmed pointed out that no officers ever reported Zehm spitting. “I don’t know why,” Conley responded.
1992 murder trial begins against sex offender 
Orphan on October 26 at 6:26 a.m.
When you know that you have done nothing wrong and someone starts wailing on you for no reason would you fight back.
With the logic being used here by the defence if the cops thought you were armed and trhought you had just killed someone they could shoot you. God forbid if you look like or are dressed like some one that just killed someone.
brianrbreen on October 26 at 7:40 a.m.
Tom Clouse’s article brings up something that I’m sure the defense has done a lot of thinking about. Do we put the defendant on the stand knowing he might get the crap kicked out of him, or do we tell the jury in closing that the defendant never has to take the stand and we proved our defense without him. I think Thompson will probably be called by the defense since CO told the jury he would be, and it wouldn’t look good if they didn’t, but who knows.
For some reason I have this sense that perhaps Thompson himself wants to take the stand, believing whole heartedly in his ability to convince the jury like he has so many others that he is a great guy, a good honest cop, who was just doing his job.
Hunterman on October 26 at 8:39 a.m.
Otto panicked when this officer came at him like an angry bear and started beating on him. Of course he was flailing around! He thought he was going to be killed! Which, of course, he was…Otto had done nothing wrong and had no idea what was going on. This whole thing makes me sick.
Hunterman on October 26 at 9:06 a.m.
Another thing that really bothers me- Why doesn’t Thompson show some remorse? A normal compassionate person would say there was a misunderstanding, that he was under the impression he was dealing with a dangerous man and he really felt bad and sorry about the whole thing. The attitude and lack of remorse shown be Thompson and those who are defending him are sure to have an impact on the Jury. And it should.
DickAdams on October 26 at 9:30 a.m.
Some of the SPD LE officers in the store look to me like the German SS troops during WW2. Why would anybody in their right mind want these same officers to respond if a person needed the SPD? I`ll take my chances with my Smith & Wesson and shot gun. I feel compelled to post my comment even though because I feel bad about what I`m saying. I have never in my life been so angry after following this tragedy that is lasting far to long, coupled with other events that the SPD have demonstrated by corrupted leadership. I ask myself about their questionable tactics and my answer to myself continues to be corruption. The cover up by Mayor Verner et al, I observed is almost unbelievable.
terrymr on October 26 at 9:55 a.m.
I thought painting the dead guy as a robber had been ruled out by the judge.
johnclarke on October 26 at 9:56 a.m.
Another thing that really bothers me- Why doesn’t Thompson show some remorse?
This is an excellent question Hunterman. I don’t follow each and every word printed on this wrongful death, however I do not recall ever hearing an ounce of humility or remorse from the accused. That would most likely go a long way with any jury. I hope that this officer sticks to his current attitude, all the way to a jail cell for the rest of his days. Unfortunately with other cops backing him, that most likely will not happen.
misjustice on October 26 at 9:57 a.m.
Wow. There was a huge raid on my neighbor’s house yesterday where there were 5+ unmarked cars & 2 marked cars & many officers in plain clothes with jackets on that said ‘police’. Funny thing is there was no noise, no shootings, no screaming, & no one was killed. But then that doesn’t make the news, does it?
An arrest without drama, violence, shootings? According to the majority of the bloggers here, that NEVER happens.
Orange on October 26 at 10:08 a.m.
Justme, these aren’t your typical bloggers. This is a band wagon of zehm followers who also are cop haters. With nothing better to do then to follow this trial (and any other trial regarding the use of force in Spokane) which they hope will end in the hanging of a few Spokane police officers. Thats all. I laugh at their posts. Really I do.
The_Seer on October 26 at 10:14 a.m.
Where does Conley ever appear on the video tape either from inside or outside the store? I have all those copies and he isn’t anywhere to be seen. I see Thompson, Braun, and all the other officers involved. I see the witnesses called by the prosecution. I never see Conley.
He won’t get another dime of my business.
The_Seer on October 26 at 10:20 a.m.
orange: Just when I thought you could not be more delusional you somehow manage to demonstrate your bottomless capacity for such behavior.
Otto didn’t gain a following until your friends killed him. Blame that on them, not us.
johnclarke on October 26 at 10:20 a.m.
@ Orange
This is a band wagon of zehm followers who also are cop haters.
There are two sides to everything, yes. You take a look at the video and tell me the death of that innocent man was necessary.
I happen to like cops. I think it’s one of the harder jobs out there. Like every line of work, there are bad ones and good ones.
Slightlyworried on October 26 at 10:31 a.m.
@Orange:
Does my expectation that police follow the law make me a cop hater? Does my expectation that police officers tell the truth make me a cop hater? Does my expectation that officers not participate in a cover up make me a cop hater?
If so, I’ll proudly wear a “cop hater” patch on my sleeve. I’ll sew it on right next to my “I Love the Constitution” patch.
Liberty_Bell on October 26 at 10:34 a.m.
Cop Haters Clarke?
So murder is legal if your a cop?
I like cops too, the legal model, not the criminal model, being shown across the state, in prosecutions in every county from the confused running the training academy in Olympia.
Of course when the Spokane Police Department, is being sued with the Ku Klux Act of 1871, your cops membership cards to the local Klub, “IS criminal too.
Or does the FBI, also still confuse the real cops, or the criminal model?
Liberty_Bell on October 26 at 10:41 a.m.
Let us review Thomas Jeffersons words about Olympia?
Cop Haters???
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their acts of pretended legislation:
garyc on October 26 at 10:43 a.m.
Should it? Along with coverage of all the pilots who landed their planes safely?
DickAdams on October 26 at 10:46 a.m.
orange:
Your comment IMO is moronic logic. Pure and simple. The corruption of the top officials in Spokane has an odor that has been stinking up our town for decades. Why is it the “good cops” don`t ban together and oust the bad apples? At least protest Anne regarding her modus operandi? Maybe even picket her office.?
The_Seer on October 26 at 10:48 a.m.
liberty: Go with just a half a tab of Halcyon next time…
Liberty_Bell on October 26 at 11:01 a.m.
Well Seer,
Birds with a feather…
Real Law Enforcement, is always confusing the Democratic Ku Klux Party’s Acts, from Christine Greguoir Constitutional Duities
Clause “…too see that the laws are faithfully executed???”
Why does it take the Feds to do Queen Chrissys Job?
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/March/11-crt-403.html
Liberty_Bell on October 26 at 11:05 a.m.
Of course Seer,
Since your obviously not from Washington, or the United States, you might read up on Washington’s only US Supreme Court Justice
William O Douglas, explaining the SPD, Seatte or Spokane!
The Ku Klux Act grew out of a message sent to Congress by President Grant on March 23, 1871, reading:
“A condition of affairs now exists in some States of the Union rendering life and property insecure and
Page 365 U. S. 173
the carrying of the mails and the collection of the revenue dangerous. The proof that such a condition of affairs exists in some localities is now before the Senate. That the power to correct these evils is beyond the control of State authorities I do not doubt; that the power of the Executive of the United States, acting within the limits of existing laws, is sufficient for present emergencies is not clear. Therefore, I urgently recommend such legislation as in the judgment of Congress shall effectually secure life, liberty, and property, and the enforcement of law in all parts of the United States… .
Liberty_Bell on October 26 at 11:21 a.m.
Just call for Backup Perjury,
In the Courts which we established…
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/09/23/1836792/pierce-county-deputies-convicted.html
nslopeofw on October 26 at 11:29 a.m.
Justme, and Orange,
Your cop lies will not work here. Tell your BS somewhere else.
richie on October 26 at 11:32 a.m.
The thing that bothers me the most, is that if Thompson would have INVESTIGATED what was going on, this whole thing could have been cleared up in a few minutes. Instead, he had already made up his mind as to what happened (faulty info or not) and went straight into beat down mode. No “Hey fella, can you come here a minute and talk to me”, or anything else you would expect a cop to do. Judge, jury and executioner all in a flash. All the semantics of who hit what, when or where is a waste of time. I think they can all agree the actions resulted in the death of a innocent man. All because Thompson failed to do his job. WATCH THE VIDEO should be the rally cry from now on.
misjustice on October 26 at 11:37 a.m.
garyc; my point is the bloggers on here think that ALL police are run away killers. Yesterday’s raid proves to be very different. No media, no deaths, no excessive force, just a well carried out arrest with no one hurt.
I agree with Orange. When there is a lumping of all officers being bad & corrupt & cold blooded killers by the majority of bloggers on this site, their ranting does get to be funny. You can predict what is going to be said with just the heading the reporter puts out there. After a while their postings make no sense, are only biased against the officers, & most people just dismiss their stand of ANY issue they comment on.
brianrbreen on October 26 at 11:42 a.m.
@Orange
Am I included in that bunch? Not that I care, just curious.
misjustice on October 26 at 11:46 a.m.
****nslopeofw on October 26 at 11:29 a.m. Justme, and Orange,
Your cop lies will not work here. Tell your BS somewhere else.***
Ohhhh, I’m scared! What is it we’re lying about? See, just another of the biased comments. LOL
I do have a question about this case tho…….It has been since 2006 that this death happened? What I want to know is who produced the mask that had no air holes in it? Was it from the paramedics that should have known it was to be hooked to an oxygen line? Was it officer Thompson? Who is responsible for Zehm not getting oxygen?
Second thing. Why did we not hear of Zehm having a water gun before now? The majority of toy guns today look exactly like the real thing. Was this gun showing & look as if Zehm was armed? Is this why the officer was in attack mode? Questions that should be asked & answered in this trial.
Truthhurts on October 26 at 11:50 a.m.
Dear JustMeAgain: I believe the point is that if police want to be taken seriously again in Spokane, they must be willing to prosecute the law-breakers in their own midst.
The degree of witness and evidence tampering that we see in this case, from the very beginning of the cover-up until now, is appalling beyond words.
Clean up your own, first, SPD.
Finally, both Braun and Conley were there after Zehm has the herky-jerkies from brain damage and taser strikes. (And Conley might not have been there at all until much later, given how quickly Thompson began his attack.)
princessdd on October 26 at 11:55 a.m.
richie,
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment - the whole situation could have been avoided if only Officer Thompson had tried to speak with Otto first to figure out just exactly what was going on. Do you remember the days when our police officers actually walked a beat, talking with the people in the community, knowing the names of the business owners and who was who and what was going on? Now it is an “us against them” mentality and they respond to calls more like soldiers who are at war with us rather than as PEACE officers that are sworn to protect and serve…
Liberty_Bell on October 26 at 12:05 p.m.
And the stats on false 911 calls?
RCW 9A.84.040
False reporting.
(1) A person is guilty of false reporting if with knowledge that the information reported, conveyed or circulated is false, he initiates or circulates a false report or warning of an alleged occurrence or impending occurrence of a fire, explosion, crime, catastrophe, or emergency knowing that such false report is likely to cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly, or transportation facility, or to cause public inconvenience or alarm.
(2) False reporting is a gross misdemeanor.
911, and false reporting a criminal statute, that always confuses Officer Thompson and Friends at the SPD, along with Official Misconduct, and the Perjury Statute?
Love that Training Academy, in Spokane don’t WE!
Liberty_Bell on October 26 at 12:14 p.m.
“Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all inhabitants thereof.”
Otto goes to his bank, to get some cash or deposit some cash?
When exactly did Officer Thompson and Associates make that illegal?
As such the SPD, better get a movin, those bank line ups that are now considered illegal by the SPD, and end up in your death for attending to your bank account, makes one wonder who the mental midget Officer Thompson and Associates the Chief the Mayor, and the biggest mental midget of all…
The Kangaroo Kounty Kourt Prosekutor?
Hunterman on October 26 at 12:27 p.m.
I can say that the majority of cops in Spokane are good cops and decent people. The fact that Thompson has not shown any remorse tells me he is not one of them. That and the heavy handed way he came at Otto makes me believe he is the kind of macho, uncaring, and aggressive cop that I deal with from time to time (not as a perp, so don’t go there.) These kind should be fighting on the front line of war, not patrolling our streets.
Liberty_Bell on October 26 at 12:27 p.m.
THE FEDERAL PRISON TERM, COMING SOON TO THE IN THE WILLIAM O. DOUGLAS, FEDERAL COURTHOUSE
YAKIMA – For the first time since the trial of Spokane Police Office Karl F. Thompson Jr. began last week, federal prosecutors walked out of the William O. Douglas federal courthouse this evening with smiles on their faces.
JUSTICE WILLIAM O. DOUGLAS
UNITED STATES REPORTS
DISCUSSING THE KU KLUX MEMBERS OF THE SPD! (1961),
Page 365 U. S. 168
(b) One of the purposes of this legislation was to afford a federal right in federal courts because, by reason of prejudice, passion, neglect, intolerance, or otherwise, state laws might not be enforced and the claims of citizens to the enjoyment of rights, privileges and immunities guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment might be denied by state agencies. Pp. 365 U. S. 174-180.
(c) The federal remedy is supplementary to the state remedy, and the state remedy need not be sought and refused before the federal remedy is invoked. P. 365 U. S. 183.
(d) Misuse of power possessed by virtue of state law and made possible only because the wrongdoer is clothed with the authority of state law is action taken “under color of” state law within the meaning of § 1979. United States v. Classic, 313 U. S. 299; Screws v. United States, 325 U. S. 91. Pp. 365 U. S. 183-187.
3. Since § 1979 does not contain the word “willfully,” as does 18 U.S.C. § 242, and § 1979 imposes civil liability, rather than criminal sanctions, actions under § 1979 can dispense with the requirement of showing a “specific intent to deprive a person of a federal right.”
P. 365 U. S. 187.
WILLFULLY, A CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL KLAN, RUNNING THE SPD FOR GENERATIONS.
misjustice on October 26 at 12:48 p.m.
**** I believe the point is that if police want to be taken seriously again in Spokane, they must be willing to prosecute the law-breakers in their own midst.****
Ummm, I don’t think Thompson is on a walk in the park because he IS being prosecuted. Or have you not noticed that?
misjustice on October 26 at 12:56 p.m.
Glad to see GrammaAgain and Orange posting on the Thompson Trial threads, finally. I wondered what happened to the cop lovers? Thought maybe Rocco told you guys to stay off the SR threads and keep your yappers shut until after the trial.
Geez, Gramma, at least go into the office once in a while.
johnclarke on October 26 at 1:08 p.m.
Liberty_bell, I have no clue what you are trying to say, but have a nice day regardless.
Slightlyworried on October 26 at 1:09 p.m.
@misjustice
I don’t mind “cop lovers.” I just don’t like “we need to ignor the criminal conduct of some cops because most cops are good people” crowd.
I never really understood how a desire to hold police to the same standards as ordinary citizens (e.g. prosecute them for the crimes they commit) makes me a “cop hater”. It actually completely baffles me. It also baffles me why the “good” cops don’t do something about the “bad” cops.
SpokyDaBear on October 26 at 1:10 p.m.
Why don’t they just hurry up and find the guy not guilty? Everybody knows the SPD can do whatever they want. Do we really need another costly trial to prove this?
The_Seer on October 26 at 1:11 p.m.
grammaagain: Thompson is being prosecuted by the Feds, not his “own.” Learn to read with comprehension?
Ron_the_Cop on October 26 at 1:17 p.m.
JustMeAgain,
You are correct that Ofc. Thompson is not going for a walk in the park. However was this going to happen in Tucker’s bush league? I think not. This was going to be swept under the rug by the police command staff, the Office of the City Attorney and the Mayor’s Office.
For reasons I do not know the young guns in the US Attorney’s Office got their noses under the tent and were given the green light by the higher ups. This is the only reasons why Ofc. Thompson is NOT having a walk in the park.
If I were a member of the police command staff either current or past, certain members of the City Attorney’s Office and the Office of the Mayor I would be puckering a little regarding potential indictments for obstruction of justice coming done after the Thompson trial is completed whether there is a conviction for the principal charge or not.
Ron_the_Cop on October 26 at 1:27 p.m.
Clouse has filed is midday report and a new thread has started on today’s testimony:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/oct/26/zehm-update-police-training-response-explained/
misjustice on October 26 at 1:42 p.m.
Slightly and JD, exactly! I don’t hate cops, I hate lies and cover-ups and unwarranted use of force against citizens; and if cops do those things well, they should NOT BE COPS!
SpokyDaBear on October 26 at 2:03 p.m.
Too many cop-lubers on this page…
Welcome_Black_Carter on October 26 at 2:19 p.m.
MsJ, I couldn’t agree more. If cops do these things and are not upstanding citizens they have no business wearing a badge. They should be held to a higher standard in general. Riles me that there is so much blatent cover up and lack of remorse. SPD seem to think that they are somehow above the law and better or more priviledged than those they serve and those that pay thier ridiculous union salaries.
I support the idea of a police force (to protect and serve the citizenry) just not this one! Not until they clean up thier act and thier attitude toward those they are sworn to serve.
nslopeofw on October 26 at 2:23 p.m.
Just me,
I dont think all cops are bad, but per capita, Spokane must be in the top ten for worst. I have interacted with a few good ones here, and felt fine. (both times sheriff’s) But you guys have a rep here, and its backed by fact. I bet there are very few if any cities with our population that has as many cop killings as spokane. prove me wrong.
nslopeofw on October 26 at 2:31 p.m.
Wasnt it a cop back in the late 90’s who offed his wife in a park and claimed it was a mugging? Damn easy to really feel good about a small town like Spokane and the number of crooked and killer cops.
PROVE ME WRONG!
The_Seer on October 26 at 2:32 p.m.
nslope: Here is a link that compare’s Spokane’s OIS with Seattle and NY City.
http://inlandnw.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/police-shootings-in-spokane-by-the-numbers/
2.4 times higher than Seattle and more than five times higher than NYC.
brianrbreen on October 26 at 2:53 p.m.
@Crooksy
Leave it alone, you guys are off the Christmas card list anyway, I’ll give you some of my old ones if you are really hurt. But I must tell you, I haven’t had one since about 2009. If you guys want to do a story. How about the number of “Lateral Transfers” on the SPD. I realize that it is cost effective to hire lateral transfers, but in reality what does it do in the long run from the stand point of community? I’ll take Spokane kids, some good, some bad, but at least they aren’t trying to escape, or move up. We have lateral transfers from all over. Heck on the SPD. including Montana, like Bowman, as well as the dumb guy from wherever he was( Florida I think) that did the pop bottle thing. I’ve been lied to by SPD people in Spokane not one was from Spokane and the charges were either dismissed or there was a plea agreement to a greatly lesser charge which was the objective.
When you take things in perspective we have to decide what we want, politics aside, just a good SPD, that’s all I want.
@Misjustice
Run my name, go back and look at the Coe Report in the archives. You will find I was very critical of the SPD in the handling of the Coe case (you can relate to that). Boy did I get crap, but I was able to prove the prime suspect wasn’t the rapist. But in the end they quietly decided I was right.
The same thing may be true here despite what “underthecover” might want to say, and besides myself and the SR no one knows who that is. We will keep it that way. When Spokane_Citizen says no one reads these blogs to a certain extend that’s right. But I also know both the prosecution and the defense read these blogs. If at any point Spokane_Citizen wants to argue that point, you are on.
I guess my point is, I have this self serving motivation that I would like to prove, before I’m outa here, that not all the cops on the SPD are like some of the cops that have testified for the defense. Why they don’t stand up is obvious, hell they got me, and I can’t be sent graveyard, and I could give a crap if Rocco is trying to figure out a way to shut me up. Good luck, and you know I have my ducks in line. Just one is Hal Spice. Ten years is gone. If you want to go into the gypsy thing please do.
I’m sorry just venting. I do have this dream though that Thompson and I are on some Island, he’s got his stick, and I’ve got my hands. He doesn’t have anyone to back him up. I would bet he would be so nice to me and try and ingratiate himself to me, I’d have to decide whether or not he would collect the branches for the shelter, or if I would have to help.
nslopeofw on October 26 at 3:03 p.m.
Thanks Seer, that sure tells a tale, dont it. How ‘bout it Orange and Just me again, does seers link bring out any gems from you two?