Spokane7
68°
September 23, 2011 in City
In the new class war, meet America’s army of child soldiers
Now that “class warfare” has been declared, decried and duplicated in an impressive lockstep, maybe it’s time to take a look at one of the armies.
The big one, I mean. Not the one with all the power.
I’m not talking about the beleaguered wealthy. The folks, we’re told, who’ve been sadly relegated to the back of the bus. You wouldn’t know it given the number of politicians they own, but they’re actually a pretty small group.
No, I’m talking about poor kids. Kids living in families of four making $22,050 or less a year. Now there’s an army – and the recruits are pouring in.
I know it’s déclassé to talk about children as if there were any social obligation toward them. Sticking up for poor kids, I’m often told, is just one of the many liberal hypocrisies.
So color me a hypocrite. Because if we are indeed in a war – a real war, a life-and-death struggle with serious winners and losers – it’s not between liberals and conservatives. It’s between poor kids and rich adults.
Horrible to say so, I know. Just shameless. But in the current environment – where taxation is called extortion, where patriots hurl the word redistribution – I’m afraid we might forget who this is about. It ain’t Warren Buffett.
More than 15 million kids in America live below the poverty line – 15,749,129, to be exact. That’s according to census surveys for 2010 released Thursday. That’s an increase of some 3.5 million in the past decade.
That’s 21.6 percent of all kids. One in five. And it’s much, much higher among kids of color. Whoops – there goes another hypocrisy.
Fifteen million, seven hundred and forty-nine thousand, one hundred and twenty-nine.
Heck of an army. Not too well financed, but large in number. Nobody’s come up with a catchy little slogan to advance their cause and purchased lawmakers to repeat it ad nauseum, but maybe if they all pitched in their pop bottle money for several years, donated it to a candidate for Congress, put on tricorn hats and asked a belligerent question or two at a town hall forum, maybe they could get someone to mention it on cable news.
Fifteen million, seven hundred and forty-nine thousand, one hundred and twenty-nine.
One out of five. That seems about right, no? The poor are always with us, after all, so we might as well just accept it. I think it says that in the Bible. It’s not like those kids are living in real poverty, after all – not like some child in a Somali village or something. Lots of them have TVs, you know, if not unconstitutional health care. And some of their parents have made simply awful life choices. Hard to credit some of those decisions. Sad, really, how those children must be left to the consequences of their parents’ absolutely terrible decisions.
Fifteen million, seven hundred and forty-nine thousand, one hundred and twenty-nine.
Here in Washington, the rate of children in poverty is slightly lower, at 18 percent. That’s 284,045. In Idaho, it’s 19 percent, or 80,316 live human children.
Sorry. So hypocritical.
If only we had moved more quickly to lower taxes on the wealthy. Maybe they’d have been able to spring into action sooner and do something for these folks. Unfortunately, some people want to levy a very small tax on the very richest among us – money that might otherwise go into the creation of a job and rescue those children from poverty, once it adds up over a few years and is compounded by future tax cuts and relief from burdensome regulation, and once the millionaires get the proper assurances and deference and heinie-kissing from everyone else – and give it to the government, where it will be used to support crack habits and gambling addictions.
Terribly sad.
So, the army grows. You can look at this in other ways, as well. Nearly a third of American children live in a home where no adult has a secure, full-time, year-round job, according to a report from the Annie E. Casey Foundation. That’s 31 percent. As with the poverty figures, it’s much, much worse for kids of color.
Overall, the poverty rate in the U.S. is 15 percent. Idaho’s is slightly higher (15.7) and Washington’s is lower (13 percent), and Spokane County sits at 14 percent, according to census figures and an analysis by the Washington State Budget & Policy Center.
But hey – what about all that harsh rhetoric about the rich? Isn’t that just awful?
Shawn Vestal can be reached at (509) 459-5431 or shawnv@spokesman.com. Follow him on Twitter at @vestal13.
The draw of the unknowable 
MrNatural on September 23 at 8:30 a.m.
Well said Shawn
The disparity is growing and the decay is such that you could film the poverty in this country and swear it was a third world slum.
I find the slur of “class warfare” to be so disingenuous when it is the average “lower to middle” class American who is protecting this nation from inside and abroad.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044008/quotes?qt=qt0473864
Dazzeetrader11 on September 23 at 8:35 a.m.
Well, I suppose when the easoned veterans from SR retire or go elewhere , this is the garbage left behind. Let’s fire up the nation and conjure a victim everyone can hate. Not much evidence mind you. Since when did that stop the left? Where are the parents who had these children? This is the worst pandering……written by a simpleton.
The_Seer on September 23 at 8:42 a.m.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/opinion/krugman-the-social-contract.html?_r=1&hp
That link contains a few more specifics than Shawn empathetically details.
All I have to say is where have you been for the last forty years, Shawn? And I don’t really me just you, but journalists in general. Mr. Natural is correct and one doesn’t need to wander very far to find those third world conditions. Just drive on Highway 2 to Wenatchee or visit “felony flats,”
Diana on September 23 at 8:47 a.m.
^ Speaking of simpletons… how empty it must be to live a life without a shred of humanity or compassion and to make everything about hate.
Dazzeetrader11 on September 23 at 9:00 a.m.
Poor kids versus RIch Adults? Oh please! And you swallow this? Reporters run amock. I guess the author saw a few too Michael Moore spots. This is just the wrong premise to build anything on.
The HATE is in the article and the auther is trying monger some up. No facts…just lead you by the nose with a dolled up opinion from the left. I suspect we’ll see more of this during the following year. Nobody has anything against children….unless you read this garbage.
DavidBray on September 23 at 9:09 a.m.
Well Shawn, with all due respect….you simply preach the liberal agenda. First, you need to buy a calculator. I never met a liberal who knew how to use simple math.
I have a huge space in my heart for children. To see children suffer in any way is painful for me, but life doesn’t care what I feel. That’s reality. If taking from those more wealthier than the majority of us would guarantee that the children of America would have all the food and other necessities they need…I’d jump on that bandwagon!!. But it doesn’t guarantee anything like that. What you’re doing is taking a serious issue regarding our children and tying it to a liberal agenda that constantly demands more and more taxpayer money for a mega-load of expenses that often are a total waste. So, no guarantees, no more money. I’ll give to a family on my block (and I’m a long way from rich). That way I have some control over where it goes and how it’s used, but trust the government and liberals to determine how much and where it goes…..no way. As far as I’m concerned, that’s a good reason for real class warfare.
You’re right about one thing and I applaud your honesty….you’re a hypocritical liberal…..and you cannot be trusted.
If America has enemies within, you wear their uniform.
jessiepn on September 23 at 9:10 a.m.
Thank you, Shawn. Contrary to what the right-wing pundits would have us believe, not every poor person is a lazy scumbag who wants to live off the state. Many of those living below the poverty line these days work full-time and still can’t make ends meet. And so far, anyway, I don’t think there’s an income standard for being allowed to have children. I hope the spewers of hatred, those who can’t fathom how the choices we make as a society could have a negative impact on some people that might be impossible to overcome, never find themselves without an income and without any safety net.
SpokyDaBear on September 23 at 9:11 a.m.
Excuse me, but how much again does the Cowles family own in and around Spokane? And over 51% of the people in Spokane live in poverty…
Upthewazzu on September 23 at 9:22 a.m.
Perhaps if poor adults stopped creating poor children this problem wouldn’t be so bad. The government must stop rewarding welfarites with more entitlement money every time they pop out a new kid. Until this happens, the poor will keep procreating at a faster rate than the rest of the socioeconomic scale.
ChefGus/ John Olsen on September 23 at 9:23 a.m.
Shawn, thank you for your insights and speaking the truth. My open offer remains for those of you critical of social programs..like feeding people… and kids particularly…. If you above who are so very vocal have some personal experience in the direct hands on human services field i’d like to hear about it. Otherwise you might do well to defer on your commentary until it is based in fact and your experience.
Contact me a chefgusolsen@gmail.com when and if you have the guts to come on down to House of Charity, and meet your disabled veterans and mentally ill and less fortunate.
The “prophet/Shawn” is not revered in his own land, because as in the old testament the “Prophet’s” of which Jesus was one are spot on….. Gus
Diana on September 23 at 9:30 a.m.
Gus, for the win.
Daisy, for proving my point.
CougarGold on September 23 at 9:48 a.m.
Spokydabear -
“Excuse me, but how much again does the Cowles family own in and around Spokane? And over 51% of the people in Spokane live in poverty…”
Where did you come up with that number? City of Spokane is at about 18% and Spokane County is at about 14%:
http://inlandnw.wordpress.com/2010/07/25/spokane-poverty-rates-2/
Not good but certainly not 51%. If you have a more credible source that shows differently, I would encourage you to link it.
gmorton on September 23 at 9:59 a.m.
Ahawn Vestal wrote,
“I know it’s déclassé to talk about children as if there were any social obligation toward them.”
That is probably because there isn’t. The obligation to provide for children rests with their parents, who brought them into the world, and with anyone else who chooses to take up that cause. “Social obligation” is a euphemism for “government obligation,” which is a tactic for *holding* responsible for some state of affairs people who are not, in fact, responsible for it.
Government has no obligation, or any constitutional authority, to provide for the private welfare of children or anyone else.
“Sorry. So hypocritical.”
Yes indeed – the hypocrisy of those who champion “compassion” as long as they can exercise it with someone else’s money.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on September 23 at 10:18 a.m.
Love the tea baggers in this country, love the baby, fight for it to be born throw money into fighting to make sure that kid gets born and not aborted…….but then hate the kid and force it to make its own way in the world and make sure no money if available to help that kid if they need it once it actually is born.
One thing, do all the idiots on here like gmorton think all these kids were born to poor parents? Do you people really think none of these kids and families became poor due to the economic depression that started in 2006 from them being laid off? Of course thats probably their fault also for being laid off and not finding another job by now.
Amazing that its the so called christians in this country and on here that are the least compassionate to their fellow man, pretty much going against everything in their book of fairy tales they love so much.
Man, I really cannot wait until the baby boomer generation starts dying off……its no wonder they are considered the GREEDIEST GENERATION THIS COUNTRY HAS EVER SEEN. Oh and thats not just liberal blowhards that say that, its people from both sides of the political aisle that say baby boomers are the greediest generation ever. Thanks greedy bastards for destroying everything your parents did to make this country great, now your kids get to clean your mess up after you die off.
http://www.forbes.com/2010/11/11/greedy-boomers-social-security-medicare-cuts-personal-finance-kotlikoff.html
http://trib.com/news/opinion/blogs/capitol/article_7b471b72-f803-11df-8010-001cc4c002e0.html
Albert on September 23 at 10:21 a.m.
Shawn, you need to get a life.
Diana on September 23 at 10:24 a.m.
“Yes indeed – the hypocrisy of those who champion “compassion” as long as they can exercise it with someone else’s money.”
Yes, indeed. Sure. Keep your money. Profess to be a “Christian”. Don’t give another thought to the poor.
OT, but why do teabaggers sound so constipated?
gmorton on September 23 at 10:32 a.m.
liberal_in_right_wing_land wrote,
” … hate the kid and force it to make its own way in the world and make sure no money if available to help that kid if they need it once it actually is born.”
“Hate the kid?” How did you manage to draw that conclusion from anything I wrote?
But I cannot “force” anyone to make his own way in the world, liberal. Nor can I make sure no money is available to help them. You may help them to any extent you see fit, and there is nothing I could do about it, even if I wanted to, which I don’t. All I can do is make sure you do your “helping” with your own money, and not with mine. I’ll make my own decisions as to whom to help, if you don’t mind.
gmorton on September 23 at 10:40 a.m.
Diana wrote,
“Profess to be a ‘Christian’”.
I make no such profession, Diana. But if you do, you’ll realize that doctrine urges you to be generous personally, with your own money, and not vicariously with someone else’s. You may not fulfill your Christian duty by palming it off onto someone else, via the State.
johnclarke on September 23 at 10:40 a.m.
So much would be different in this country if health care and education were not for profit industries.
@David Bray
“tying it to a liberal agenda that constantly demands more and more taxpayer money for a mega-load of expenses that often are a total waste”
I’m wondering if you can explain how this assumption regarding a “liberal agenda” is different from a Republican agenda? Speaking of calculators, get yours out and add up the costs of two Republican wars, the Republican homeland security agenda, the Republican bailout of the S&L crisis, the lastest hustle known as TARP, the cost of all the deregulation and outright stealing of retirement funds etc etc. Do you consider any of the above wise use of money? You folk in the alternate universe known as the “right” seem to look the other way while Republicans run up the debt, then try to blame it all on the “liberal agenda”.
Hypocrites and frauds, each and every one of you. Those among that call yourselves christians are even worse. Your lack of compassion for the less fortunate is certainly not in line with your so called beliefs.
MrNatural on September 23 at 10:56 a.m.
The callous self centered rationales being used to suppress normal human compassion sure do drill holes in the bottom of this ship we are all trying to float on…I do hope that when community desperation becomes so extensive and decay and disease begin to fester this nation that the money you’ve saved on your taxes was worth it because you’ll surely get the nation you pay for…
You may want to invest it in private security firm futures
CougarGold on September 23 at 10:56 a.m.
JC - Speaking from my personal view, I don’t think it’s necessarily lack of compassion, rather how a person facilitates his/her compassion. I don’t favor using government to facilitate my charitable compassion for a few reasons but it doesn’t mean I’m not compassionate or that I don’t do things to support the less fortunate. For example, I give generously to United Way and Vanessa Behan. Additionally, my wife volunteers about 12 hours per week at VB. This point is that where we choose to direct our compassion is ours and it’s because we believe these entities have demonstrated efficiencies in operations with good results that provide our best bang for the buck. State funded agencies; not so much.
The assumption that because someone doesn’t want their funds mandated to State agencies, they’re selfish and greedy is a disconnect. For me, at least, it’s more about personal choice and perceived worthiness of the beneficiary agency. I have my reasons for where I want my charity to go and others have theirs. I don’t prefer to have my charity forced by tax collection and directed in ways I don’t personally support.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on September 23 at 11:16 a.m.
CougarGold, its nice that you are giving your time and money to charity and the less fortunate, however, most people don’t. Again, we wouldn’t have so many people from both the right and left of the political world calling the baby boomers the greediest generation ever if they donated to charity like you or if they were willing to give in taxes like past generations did.
However, to many don’t and they want to keep all their money for themselves and give to nobody else and refuse to help anyone else with all their money. Thats why we are seeing all these articles from places like Forbes the New York Times the Wall Street Journal and even Republican Alan Simpson calling Baby Boomers the greediest generation in history.
Oregon_Alpinist on September 23 at 11:18 a.m.
Those bashing uncharitable “Christians:” Christ agrees with you. If Christians truly believe Jesus has taken their sin and made them co-heirs of God the Father, they will live out of HIS riches and not their own. This means giving of their time, money and resources to those who need it as a reflection of how God became poor (Jesus) to lavish gifts to a crippled and needy humanity. If they aren’t charitable, they are disbelieving the very faith they profess with their mouths.
Sadly, this is the majority of so-called Christians. But for those I have seen who truly have had their life and hearts changed by a powerful God, these are the people I have seen give the most to the needy, be it with their time, money, taxes or relationships. And these do it not for their own conscience, not out of fear or pride, Hell or public opinion, but out of the love for the broken which they share with God Himself.
meadman on September 23 at 11:22 a.m.
some of you right-wing zealots really need to get out more – turn off Fox news for a day and take a tour of the area — including poor areas of town, Union Gospel Mission, the Salvation Army, meet with some social workers, mental health workers, teachers…….it probably won’t change your hard-headed rightwing ideas, but maybe you will have your eyes opened just a bit…. remember the Bible verse about “whatever ye have done to the least of these, you have done to me”? Think about it next time you feel so smug.
johnclarke on September 23 at 11:25 a.m.
Cougar, hard to say this without being offensive but I hear that from everyone on the right - not saying that you are in any political camp. “I give to charity” does not really address this issue.There certainly is a disconnect, and it’s this concept that state or federal aid of any kind for the less fortunate is this gigantic free ride for lazy people. Are there a percentage of scumbags taking advantage of the system? Most certainly. However, so many good things are accomplished with the proper application of state programs. I will not take to time to provide examples, but I see it every day.
Less fortunate people ought to have a path to be more fortunate. Everyone wins. In Sweden and many other nations, you can go to college for free, in fact they pay you to do it - even if you have kids. Yes, regardless of your ability to pay, they will make you an educated and productive member of society - if you are willing to work. This concept of keeping poor people poor is middle ages crap. We have all the money in the world to fight wars, and pour like water into Wall Street. Seems like ….um unfair. I have no problem with my tax dollars helping my fellow man get a leg up. I have to hope it goes to good use.
WHS on September 23 at 11:37 a.m.
I wonder if any of the radical right wing tea bagger republicans have ever even read the Constitution? I mean, they spout all this rhetoric about ME ME ME, MINE MINE MINE, but fail to comprehend even the most basic of its tenets..
“The work of many minds, the Constitution stands as a model of cooperative statesmanship and the art of compromise.”
Here it is the actual preamble:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Here is the radical right teabagger conservative republican version:
I a person of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union for me, establish Justice as I see fit, insure domestic Tranquilty for my family, provide for the common defence as long as somebody pays me, promote the general welfare only if they are willing to pay for it, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to myself and my Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America and me.
WHS
CougarGold on September 23 at 11:38 a.m.
JC - No offense taken. This quote:
“There certainly is a disconnect, and it’s this concept that state or federal aid of any kind for the less fortunate is this gigantic free ride for lazy people.”
I won’t deny that some/many believe this but, that’s not my issue. Mine is that if we could foster a broader sense of direct community support, without government intervention, we’d be a lot better off. And I would add that, at least in my circle of colleagues both R and D, it is the case. What I don’t care for with the tax supported government role is the layer of bureaucracy that tends to the collection and disbursement of funding, often with a variety of State stipulations attached that only devalues the benefits derived by those who actually need them.
The other issue I have is that certain entities who might receive tax support aren’t where I would choose to spend my charitable dollars. Lastly, privately funded entities, like VB, tend to be more efficiently run with, arguably, better results. They’re working harder for support and they need to have demonstrated positive results or they won’t get the donations they need in both time and money.
Where the debate goes is that one side, your side for the sake of argument, has given up on fostering private support and wants the State to provide it. The other side, mine, would rather see our energies spent on fostering the private side. If your side prevails, my side will suffer and I think we’re going to just waste efficiencies and choices that we otherwise would have.
mikeln on September 23 at 11:39 a.m.
Poor children raised in dysfunctional homes are gold to the republican mindset, that why they would rather see a child that is not wanted born into desperation. These are the children that man the army and fill the prisons, all money makers for the war profiteers and private prison owners. What a crock of crap, it does not need to be this way. The crapholes that call themselve the job creators know it, the bought and paid for pollitions know it and we should be screaming like hell about this piss-poor representation corporate america controls. Untill we demand leadership that considers the needs of everyone, not just the corporate, we will have to live in this ever growing landfill of a country. Stock up, if you can, it’s going to be a long winter.
WHS on September 23 at 11:45 a.m.
Johnclarke, very well put! Common sense in action again. The radical right tea baggers are all for spending trillions to war with other nations, but cry foul when it comes to spending even a paultry few million on our own citizens!
Oregon-Alpinist, be careful speaking the truth about the Bible, as this is contrary to current radical right wing christian belief. But, I appreciate what you posted. Thanks you.
WHS
woamike on September 23 at 11:53 a.m.
To all you self-rightous libs,
IT’S NOT YOUR MONEY. YOU DIDN’T EARN IT. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TAKE IT and give it someone else. Regardless of your motives or belief system.
Why is that so hard for you to understand? Get your brains out of first gear.
Like gmorton said, stop trying to be vicariously “charitible” with OTHER people’s stuff. You are not Robin Hood. Those of you that wish to use the tax code to take from one and give to another are little more than theives that cloak yourselves in false virtue. Every one of you. Pulling the “Jesus” card (especially when half of you are atheists in the first place) is bunk. Jesus NEVER FORCED anyone to give anything. HE NEVER advocated using the government (or anything else) as a means to forcibly take from one to give to another. YOU on the other hand think its ok to TAKE BY FORCE that which does NOT belong to you.
Before anyone one of you call me what you’re thinking right now, I give of my own free-will a significant portion of my income to various charities and volunteer my time when I can. Not that it matters, but I’m 100% confident that I give more in real dollars and as a percentage of my income than 90% of your blow-hards and Robin Hood wannabes. My wife give TONS of time to various charities. Again, all of our own free will. This is what MOST conservative people do. Of course in your alternate universe, only the libs are compasionate. What a load of crap.
There is nothing lower or disgusting that self-rightous, false virture. You hypocrites need to look in the mirror and keep YOUR GREEDY, filthy hands off of other people’s wallets.
nslopeofw on September 23 at 11:59 a.m.
Werent we all poor when we were young? THEN WE WORKED OUR WAY UP AND GOT UN-POOR.
WHS on September 23 at 12:04 p.m.
CougarGold,
The first part of your statement is probably true for most Democrats as well. If more people would get involved in charitable contributions, less money from the government would be needed. I for one volunteer well over 300 hours a year to my local community. In fact, as a direct result of mine and many others community involvement our local school system, rather than having to cut teachers or salaries or after school programs and free breakfasts, we do just the opposite. All the while maintaining some of the highest academic standards in the state. These are direct results of an active community. Our christian food banks are virtually boiling over with donations. If somebodies house burns down or other such calamity should occur, the community outpouring of help is astounding. And at the same time… I am ok paying my fair share of taxes. See I believe in the Constitution and what it stands for… Even though I don’t always agree with what the government does or how it does it.
The second part I question. See, this very thing is one of the primary tenets of the Constitution. We elect representatives to office that hopefully administrate in ways we agree with. Does that mean that if our candidate does not get elected we should not have pay taxes?
Hey maybe thats a new idea! If you are a registered voter and your candidate loses, you get a free pass. However! That means if your candidate wins, you have to pay double! Now wouldn’t that be interesting.
WHS
jddavis on September 23 at 12:04 p.m.
I am in complete agreement with CougarGold.
To name-call people because they want to control which charities their money goes to rather than the government deciding is pretty bold.
Charity has no political affiliation; it comes from the heart.
gmorton on September 23 at 12:06 p.m.
johnclarke wrote,
“There certainly is a disconnect, and it’s this concept that state or federal aid of any kind for the less fortunate is this gigantic free ride for lazy people.”
It is that, to a large extent, but that is not the central issue. The issue is that whom to help, and to what extent, is a decision you as a moral agent are entitled – indeed, obliged – to make for yourself, but not for others. And having made that decision, you are further obliged to carry it out with your own time, money, and efforts, and not someone else’s.
gmorton on September 23 at 12:14 p.m.
WHS wrote,
“See I believe in the Constitution and what it stands for… ”
In that case you should be demanding that the Nanny State be dismantled, and would know that “the general welfare” does not mean private welfare.
http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/welfare
soccermomsusie on September 23 at 12:14 p.m.
Libtards will always quote Jesus when he said, regarding taxes, “Render unto God what is God’s and unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”
NEWSFLASH! WE DON”T LIVE IN THE ROMAN EMPIRE ANYMORE!!!!
Besides being born in a publicly-funded hospital, attending publicly-funded schools (including college), eating publicly-funded hot lunches, receiving publicly-funded vaccinations, etc., as a child, I pretty much raised myself up by my bootstraps. Today’s youngsters can do the same.
I was unfortunate enough to have grown up after the child labor sweatshops were destroyed by Socialists like Teddy Roosevelt. A shame. I think those days are coming back. Our state senator - Bumgardner has hinted that this is a mission of his. GOD SPEED, GOOD SIR, GODSPEED!
The economic model we Republicans seek is very American (just not “North” American).
I wish they could pump some gumption into that Riverfront Park fountain and onto these one to twelve-year-old deadbeat kids who are really draining our economy whilst they frolic on our dime.
HEAR OUR VOICE!!!
The_Seer on September 23 at 12:16 p.m.
wormlike: And you spent most of your adult life “defending” such a warped value system? Now you see why I got out after six years.
Participation with good is as just as much a duty as non-participation with evil.
CougarGold on September 23 at 12:26 p.m.
WHS - “Does that mean that if our candidate does not get elected we should not have pay taxes?”
No, of course not. But it also doesn’t mean we should just shrug our shoulders and give up on what we believe. And that’s why there is debate on issues like this. Not everything is completely clear-cut and what most concerns me about putting all ‘charitable’ giving via taxes into the hands of government is the negative impact to privately funded charities like Vanessa Behan.
woamike on September 23 at 1:46 p.m.
@ Seer
“Participation with good is as just as much a duty as non-participation with evil.”
Which is why I DO participate in charitable activity. Did you miss that part? Were you blinded by your tortured “logic”?
The “value” system that sees as virtuous the taking by FORCE (using the tax code under threat of imprisonment and loss of all liberty) of someone’s property and giving it to another is warped.
Your Marxist philosohpy (what ever version/variation you personally espouse) is twisted. Your supposed equality is fasle and an illusion. Your perverted ENDS cannot be achieved on this Earth without the evil MEANS of force, coercion and ultimately violence. Isn’t that right, Mr. Marxist? But, that doesn’t bother you in the least, does it?
BTW, are ever going to give up with the straw men? Or, is it just to ingrained as a propaganda technique in your Marxist world? By the way, this question is not a straw man: You are a self-confessed Marxist, NO ONE on this board creates more straw men than you do and creating straw man IS a long-practiced technique of Marxists. In fact it may be their most important and effective one. Without strawmen and the false premise they create, the entire Marxist philosophy collapses on itself.
The_Seer on September 23 at 2:15 p.m.
wormlike: Viewing history as a succession of class struggles is not a “straw man.” It’s a reality your selfishness has caused you to ignore. Selfishness is also at the root of your “charity.” You and your ilk give because you believe there are rewards awaiting you in the afterlife for such behavior rather than giving because you have more than you need.
No one forces anyone in a Marxist system to participate. Individuals are free to move anywhere they want. If you want your small government, “keep your hands off my jack” utopia, then move. We aren’t going back the other way as a nation and stopping the progression towards socialism is as futile as trying to stop the ocean’s tides. May I suggest Somalia?
Put down the Ayn Rand, turn off Fox News, get some fresh air and interact with the needy on a one to one basis rather than feebly assuaging your guilt by scratching a check now and then.
woamike on September 23 at 2:55 p.m.
@ Seer,
What little respect I had for you is gone. You are completely, utterly and totally disingenuous. It is a waste of time to engage with you.
Your characterization of participation and mobility in a Marxist society is laughable. The AMERICAN revolution was NOT fought to establish a socialist or Marxist state. People haven’t lived and died defending this nation to the have the federal government control virtually every aspect of their lives nor allow half of the society to leech off the other. No it is YOU who should move. As YOU are the one that rejects the Founders and the Constitution and seeks to replace it with YOUR vision of Utopia, twisted as it is.
Since you brought up Somalia - since you obviously have more than you need*, may I suggest you give ALL your excess to those poor souls? Better yet, sell all you have, go to Somalia, and distribute all the wealth you accumulated in our evil capitalist system. Enough of your platitudes - that would show us you’re a REAL socialist commited to the cause. Then you could move to a real socialist country and live in peace and harmony with your fellow Socialsts/Marxists/Statists.
*Your frequent bragging of your wealth including stock (Apple anyone?) and property holdings accumluated in this “evil” system betray you. I’m sure true belivers would consider your wealth ill-gotten gain.
.
woamike on September 23 at 2:59 p.m.
@ Seer,
Additionally, your characterization of why good people everywhere give to charity and the less-fortunate is despicable and incorrect. Good people help others of their own free-will regardless of Heaven or Hell. What delusions you must have to be able to live with yourself.
johnclarke on September 23 at 3:14 p.m.
I guess I don’t understand something. This article does not mention charity once. I’m also trying to see where my post tried to talk about “charity” and how we choose to give. Give to whoever you want, thank you for giving. What I’m trying to say, in apparently not very clear English is;
Too many people are living below the poverty line. We as a people should help people improve their lives. State or Federally funded training programs or educational dollars is just such a no brainer. People get educated or trained, they get better jobs. They make more money, they spend more money and pay taxes that help other people improve their lives. This concept (again) seems to be well known to the Europeans. There are big cuts happening to these programs that help people get or improve their jobs. Now, how stupid is that? The Republicans up and created this mess, along with some help from the Democrats being lethargic - and who takes the hit? Certainly not the wealthy, they are still wealthy because we the taxpayer bailed them out, funded their wars etc.
Of all the things to spend money on, helping people get out of poverty gets my vote.
The_Seer on September 23 at 3:40 p.m.
wormilke: I don’t care what a group of wealthy landowners established 200 and some odd years ago and I’ve rejected their vision for this nation long ago, much like the Native Americans who were here before them. Nations and cultures are malleable, indeed they must be in order to survive and thrive. Harkening back to a time when conditions weren’t anything like they are today is myopic and moronic. With such logic if I were to want to boil some water for coffee I’d have to wait until lightening lit a nearby tree on fire, or I happen to discover a vein of flint in my front yard.
How is it obvious that I have more than I need? I live on about a grand a month and EVERYTHING I make beyond that I give away directly to individuals/families in need. That includes the fortune I’ve made on Apple stock. That includes the monstrous surplus of produce my gardens provide. Additionally, I complete an inventory of my “stuff” every six months and if it wasn’t used in the last year I give/throw it away. I drive a 1999 Subaru Outback with nearly 200,000 miles. I prefer to be defined by my actions, not materials.
Good luck trying to stop the tide of the ocean. You can’t stop us and you only look more foolish spitting out the same tired rationalizations for selfishness.
I stand by my characterization of why most people give to charities rather than directly to individuals/families in need. You are hoping for a future reward out of allegiance to superstition. You are paying beforehand for your batch of opiates for the masses. Kinda like a downpayment on a salvation you’ll never realize. It’s a reality that deep inside you know is true but a misunderstood fealty to ideology (I have a hard time calling it that because it’s so scantily examined) prohibits you from viewing it in full flower.
gmorton on September 23 at 4:34 p.m.
The_Seer wrote,
“We aren’t going back the other way as a nation and stopping the progression towards socialism is as futile as trying to stop the ocean’s tides.”
That’s what Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Mao, and Castro claimed also.
We can either stop that progression or wait until it stops itself, and us in the process.
gmorton on September 23 at 4:41 p.m.
johnclarke wrote,
“State or Federally funded training programs or educational dollars is just such a no brainer.”
It certainly is. No one with a brain would consider it (except the bureaucrats who expect to profit from it, of course).
If you wish to train someone, John, take on a couple of apprentices where you work, pay them out of your pocket (not someone else’s), and leave the bureaucrats out of it. Ok?
gmorton on September 23 at 4:44 p.m.
johnclarke wrote,
“Of all the things to spend money on, helping people get out of poverty gets my vote.”
No need for a vote, John. You are free to help anyone you wish escape poverty. Just write a check.
You are not free to help them with someone else’s money, though, no matter how many votes you take.
gmorton on September 23 at 4:50 p.m.
The_Seer wrote,
“I don’t care what a group of wealthy landowners established 200 and some odd years ago and I’ve rejected their vision for this nation long ago . . ”
At least you are honest enough to admit that. Most lefties concoct convoluted rationalizations for how their archaic, tribalist fantasies derive from the Constitution.
gmorton on September 23 at 4:58 p.m.
The_Seer wrote,
“No one forces anyone in a Marxist system to participate.”
Ah. Then the Berlin Wall was built to keep those wicked West Germans from swarming into the city, eh?
johnclarke on September 23 at 5:32 p.m.
gmorton, although I would love to meet you in person and show you exactly how I feel about your smug, snotty attitude, alas you will remain hidden behind your keyboard. Once you pay your taxes pal,(assuming you do) that’s not your money any more, it’s money to be spent the way our elected officials see fit. That is how it works. Once again I would like to invite you to live in another country. Have you been overseas? I’ve visited a few places that fit your vision. I would encourage you to go.
I’m familiar with one of the excellent programs funded by the State, in other words - me. Once of the clients that is taking advantage of job training has palsy and almost no use of her limbs with the exception of one hand. She will be trained and go to work in a capacity that is possible for her. Her mother has spoken about how this program has essentially given her child a reason to live. Yes, gmorton I know that you are touched by this story and all that, but let me say that I truly hope that you need help some day and some arrogant d-bag like yourself tells you to go die. Someone can say, “sorry but you didn’t contribute enough to society so you can starve”.
woamike on September 23 at 5:54 p.m.
@ Seer,
Well, you’re just a regular Mother Theresa, aren’t you?
I say you’re a fraud and a hypocrite. You have time and again bragged of your affluence and prowess in the capitalist world while at the same time you deride the very system that has (allegedly) made you wealthy. You want OTHER people to pay more taxes while you yourself avoid them. Remember when you told us “property taxes are for fools”?
Your latest bit of braggadocio was to Phaedrus after he himself bragged about getting in on Apple stock at $16. You gave him an electronic “high five” when you said:
“Phad: I got in on Apple around the same price in 1994…. 22,500 worth. Set for life. Just about.”
“just about” set for life, eh? Oh yes, those sound like the words of a soul who has taken a vow of poverty while he gives away all his wealth and only lives on $1k a month. I guess you grow your own “stash”. Otherwise, after paying the bills, you wouldn’t have the coin left to buy it. . .
You also believe in the (violent) Marxist “struggle” and have said in so many words you’ll be taking part the taking (by force) of other people’s property when the “revolution” comes to pass. A violent revolution where I’m sure you see yourself as part of the ruling class. Most recently, you threatened people who disagreed with your sick philosophy by saying:
“Traitors to your class. We’ll remember you especially when the proletariat grabs the reins. There is a special ring in hell for you. . .”
Yes, these are the words of a saint. You mock people who believe in God, while you feign virtuousness as you worship Marx and wait patiently for the day you can step on our necks with your jackboot.
I don’t think for a second you’re the selfless saint who gives away all his wealth like you claim to be. You? No way. Many of your writings betray who you really are: A disgruntled, petty, dangerous man who’s life (at least on this board) is a fraud.
woamike on September 23 at 6:05 p.m.
@ Johnclarke
“Once you pay your taxes pal,(assuming you do) that’s not your money any more, it’s money to be spent the way our elected officials see fit. That is how it works.”
No, JC that’s NOT how it’s (supposed) to work. Our elected reps are obliged (they swore an oath) to spend money on legitimate things, IAW the Constitution. Not on whatever you, I or they “see fit”.
The fact that our elected officials routinely spend our money (and now our grandkid’s money) illegitimately does not make it right. I guess according to your interpretation of what our elected leaders can and can’t do, if they “saw fit” to give all single men a monthly stipend for strippers and hookers, that would be OK with you since “that is how it works”.
johnclarke on September 23 at 6:08 p.m.
Daisy darling, what the heck, over? You are making less sense than usual.
You know, my Con amigos - I guess it’s one thing if you actually EARN your fortune in life, but so few people really do. Take a look at GW Bush, the man that literally failed at everything he tried. He inherited, so it didn’t really matter that he was a loser. Poor folk don’t get that kind of insurance, and all I keep trying to say to you captains of industry - we can afford to help them.By helping folk step up, become educated and earn more we are only helping ourselves. This is/was the land of opportunity, not the land of everyone for himself.
johnclarke on September 23 at 6:12 p.m.
You’ll have to educate me on how the constitution restricts how Congress spends and on what. Please, exactly.
And yes, I would support any stimulus that helps boost the economy including adult entertainment. How do I vote for that. Listen, again folks - if you don’t like how Congress is spending your money 1) leave 2) why do you keep voting Republican? They spend worse than Democrats.
Orphan on September 23 at 6:47 p.m.
Johnclark You want to show gmorton how you feel, that looks like a threat to me. Talk about hiding behind a keyboard.
I have to agree with woamike you have lost all respect from me as well. Your name sake would be embarassed if he was a real person, you do understand he is a character in a book right?
misjustice on September 23 at 7:02 p.m.
Great piece, Shawn; look at the number of comments. Ya really stirred the pot with this one!
Keep ‘em comin’…
; )
Where’s my tax cut?
The_Seer on September 23 at 7:38 p.m.
wormlike: Wow, I didn’t realize you were so obsessed with me.
How did you miss where I stated the small fortune I’ve made off of Apple stock has been almost completely gifted to other people? It must be your PC…
My niece contracted Burkett’s lymphoma, a very rare and extremely virulent form of cancer and her mother, my sister, would have had to have her placed on Social Security disability and Medicaid to save her life. That Apple investment paid for her entire care and not one penny came from taxpayers. No insurance, nada, just direct payments to caregivers. It cost us about a half of a million dollars.
The real estate I own is in trust and I inherited that situation other than a home I paid for with cash, again, from the Apple investment.
I’ve never advocated violence and completely renounced it as solution to anything shortly before I completed my contractual obligation to the U.S. Navy. I joined the military to help defeat Soviet totalitarianism because they were giving Marxists a bad name and we serve our nation in my family. Several of my great uncles and aunts were murdered in Nazi concentration camps. You and gmorton continually confuse Marxism with totalitarianism and they could not be more different. Marx viewed governments and power extremely suspiciously and his ideal calls for a “withering of the state” because the state almost invariably entrenches inequality and restricts the free development of all individuals no matter what ideology, party, or system under which it receives franchise. This includes those who benefit the most from capitalism, they are slaves of maintenance. Just look at the Koch brothers and their incessant drive to maintain a system restricting liberty and equality.
I know neither of you understand the theoretical groundings of Marxism because of your responses to its basic premises. Maybe I can help:
Find a good copy of the John Huston film The African Queen. Place Henry Allnut, the Bogart character, in the role of capitalist. Place Rose Sayer, the Hepburn character, in the role of Marxist. (The character’s last names couldn’t be more prescient) The boat is the free market. The river is human development. The film was produced during the McCarthy hearings at the height of the second red scare. Most view it as a quaint romantic story. Big mistake. Anyone who has seen the film knows who wins. The river. Marx just says you can either be the leaf floating on the surface (which the boat becomes while constantly losing steam power and eventually sinking to be resurrected later to kill the symbol of capitalist imperialism and provide a perfect symbol of capitalism cannibalizing itself) while actively engaging in the natural development of our economic development. Or be like Henry, desiring to return upstream and bastardizing our nature in frantic self destructive behavior to delay the inevitable. The best line from the film is when Allnut defends his world view by stating “it’s human nature” to which Sayer replies: “Human nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we were put here to rise above.”
You’ve both probably watched this film before. Now go and really see it for this first time.
woamike on September 23 at 8:03 p.m.
I think I’ve figured it out. There are two Seers: one who is a step from sainthood based on his stated actions and another who occasionally lets it slip he’s down with violent Marxist revolution and when called on it, back-peddles and soft-sells it.
Mr. Marxist tell us how your “revolution” happens peacefully, with no force or coercion and DOESN’T lead to totalitarianism. Tell us how we can opt out as you eluded to gmorton. And tell us, what replaces the state when it “withers away”? You’ve already let us know (repeatedly) your socialist/marxist/statist revolution utopian society will take by force other people’s property to be distributed as your revolutionists see fit. Sounds like paradise to me!
You need to make up your mind if you want to be a saint and let people live in unmolested peace or a Marxist dying for the “revolution” to come to fruition - you know the one that’s like the ocean tide or whatever.
gmorton on September 23 at 8:33 p.m.
johnclarke wrote,
“gmorton, although I would love to meet you in person and show you exactly how I feel about your smug, snotty attitude, alas you will remain hidden behind your keyboard.”
Heh.
Working your way through the official list of informal fallacies, eh? Worn out *ad hominems* and *ad vericundiams*, so now it’s the *ad baculum*.
“Once you pay your taxes pal,(assuming you do) that’s not your money any more, it’s money to be spent the way our elected officials see fit. That is how it works.”
Well, woamike already set you straight on that nonsense, so I need only affirm what he said. That may be the way it works in a “people’s democracy,” but not in a constitutional republic.
But perhaps you’ve been misinformed about the nature of the country in which you live. If so, then it would appear that you are the displaced person, and would be happier in Cuba or some such place.
gmorton on September 23 at 8:41 p.m.
johnclarke wrote,
“You’ll have to educate me on how the constitution restricts how Congress spends and on what. Please, exactly.”
Easy enough, John. Read Article I, Sec. 8. If an activity is not listed there, then Congress has no power to undertake it or spend taxpayers’ money on it. Pay attention also to the 10th Amendment, which reads, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
Very simple.
The_Seer on September 23 at 8:50 p.m.
woamike: The “force” you mention is not in the form you prescribe. The force is the current of the river as in The African Queen. Neither of us can stop it. Not Henry Allnut, not the gin he consumes to delude himself or his mistaken notion that his boat is to blame. Human development also involves economic development and any accurate reading of history supports that premise. Where your ideological allegiance falls short is that it presumes human culture halts at oligarchy. That is where you could not be more wrong.
Be the leaf, my comrade.
The_Seer on September 23 at 9:13 p.m.
gmorton:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch01.htm
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch05.htm
If you actually read those links in entirety I’ll expect to hear the shattering of a worldview sometime around midnight. I doubt your attention span encompasses such rigor.
gmorton on September 23 at 9:14 p.m.
The_Seer wrote,
“I know neither of you understand the theoretical groundings of Marxism because of your responses to its basic premises.”
Oh, you’re quite mistaken. The theoretical grounding of Marxism, like that of Fascism, is the organic fallacy (in Marx’s terms, the belief that “Man is a species being”). Then a whole superstructure of economic nonsense is erected atop that foundation.
And of course, the “withering of the State” is pie-in-the-sky nonsense – it is Marx’s Promised Land, his substitute for the heavenly afterlife he ridicules. It is the carrot which he hopes will distract the naive from the stick with which he is about to beat them. No State organized around Marxist principles has shown any sign of “withering away” yet (which is not to be confused with collapse).
But then Marxism, like all other collectivist ideologies, is merely intellectual window dressing anyway, an elaborate smokescreen designed to mask a primitive human emotion, envy, and justify an ancient human urge – the urge to steal. It is not to be taken seriously as science or philosophy.
gmorton on September 23 at 9:32 p.m.
The_Seer wrote,
“The force is the current of the river as in The African Queen.”
Uh, no, Seer. There is no “current,” i.e., “historical inevitability.” That is a variety of the teleological fallacy – the same fallacy which underlies many “intelligent design” arguments. There is no “end point” to history which can be divined in advance, and thus no vector (“current”). The path human development has taken to date provides no guidance as to how it will continue to develop, any more than does the course evolution has followed to date determine its future course.
The_Seer on September 23 at 9:36 p.m.
Human history is defined by class struggles. The State is the result of an inability to reconcile class struggles. Those are the basic premises of Marxism. Who can deny those premises if they have read the entirety of both Engels and Marx? How then, other than mass distortion, do their ideals transform into a supposed “utopia” that entails a totalitarian state?
The petty bourgoise, as embodied by many conservatives who post on these threads, have been the impediments of the development of the “withering of the state.” They use it to keep their power, knowing that such a structure is their only means of enforcing inequality and the resultant hinderance of individual development. They use gross distortions of income distribution to further class antagonisms knowing those fractures are what led to the creation of the state. Their magic lies in convincing those whose individual development is repressed by such arrangements that the apparatus they’ve constructed in response to those class antagonisms is the real enemy. And they are right. But in a fashion that is far beyond their current conception.
That is what I meant by Dante’s “circle of hell.” His work is metaphorical, obviously, meaning we inhabit the horrors of our own false constructions.
The_Seer on September 23 at 9:40 p.m.
Cue more sophomoric readings of Logic 101.
The_Seer on September 23 at 9:50 p.m.
I am pretty sure I never stated anything about Marxism being the end all of be all… it is just what will happen when capitalism self implodes after wringing every resource and human creation of its efficacy. What happens after Marx’s accurate predictions will of course, be up to us. Just like the current arrangement has been. But that still doesn’t mean it can be stopped. Or what happens after, either.
Can I hear a Galileo? Amen!
gmorton on September 23 at 10:13 p.m.
The_Seer wrote,
“Human history is defined by class struggles. The State is the result of an inability to reconcile class struggles. Those are the basic premises of Marxism. Who can deny those premises if they have read the entirety of both Engels and Marx?”
Well, if Marx and Engels represent the extent of your reading, you may not be able to deny it.
“Classes” and the “class struggle” are artifacts of analysis – an analysis designed to yield a predetermined outcome. They are theoretical constructs derived from some legal constructs prevalent in Europe at the time Marx wrote, and then promoted to sociological primitives per which all of history can be explained, as all of physics can be explained in terms of the four forces. Unfortunately, unlike the case with physics, Marx’s primitives do not begin to explain the chaotic and impenetrably convoluted spectrum of human history. For most of that history the concept of “classes” is useless; they can be identified only by definition.
“They use it to keep their power, knowing that such a structure is their only means of enforcing inequality and the resultant hinderance of individual development.”
Er, Seer, there is no need for any “class” to “enforce inequality.” Humans are innately unequal, as are the members of every other plant and animal species. Inequality among humans in a social setting will manifest itself as a matter of course. *Equality* is what can only be obtained and maintained by force. And “development” which can only occur via predation by some individuals upon others is not “individual development.” It is parasitical development.
woamike on September 23 at 10:23 p.m.
People of Spokane:
Are you paying attention? This hard-core, all-in Marxist, who calls himself “The_Seer”, actually believes in and advocates this most destructive of philosophies. He admits (see above) he rejects out of hand the founding of this country and all it stands for. It goes without saying he rejects the Constitution. I have never in my life called a fellow American “un-American”, but after reading his above posts, well, you make your own judgement.
The most galling thing (something that he revels in) is that he claims to be teaching your impressionable children. How many times has he called you “idiots” or the like and taunted you that he works to essentially “de-program” the principles you have taught them. He also has claimed in the past, there are others teaching in the Spokane schools who share his perverted views. He does not have the decency to identify where or what he teaches so you at least have the opportunity to keep your kids away from his influence.
I am so glad my kids made it through what passes for today’s educational system without being brain-washed and are now productive citizens who can think on their own.
To the many educators out there who are not like Seer, who work dilligently to teach our youth without seeking to corrupt them, I commend you. You are vital to the survival of this society. Heaven help us all, if in fact there are many “Seers” in education today.
woamike on September 23 at 10:25 p.m.
gmorton,
You rock. I’d like to buy you lunch someday.
gmorton on September 23 at 10:33 p.m.
The_Seer wrote,
” … it is just what will happen when capitalism self implodes after wringing every resource and human creation of its efficacy.”
“Capitalism,” BTW, the term and the concept, is itself an artifact of Marx’s fanciful ideological *tour-de-farce*.
Free market economics (also known as “natural economics”) derives from a single principle: that each person is free to enter into any desired relationship or engage in any transaction, for any purpose, with any other willing person, on any mutually agreeable terms, without interference from any third party, provided no third party’s rights are violated.
As long as those conditions are satisfied with every transaction whatever form or character of society that obtains at any given time, and any distribution of wealth, is legitimate and moral.
Dazzeetrader11 on September 23 at 11:22 p.m.
Not likely to change much among the more “elegant” posters but the heart of the matter right now in the US hasbeen displayed in the past 72 posts.
Sometimes I grind my teeth when I see such nonsense from Vestal. He’s likely drinking beer womewhere chuckling to himself how wrote this wonderful article that was SO engaging that it forced those hillbillies to argue for hours.
Well, as in all things under the sun, more light has emerged. It’s quite obvious the bad faith shown for months by Seer is detritus….as it goes with Vestals article herein.
I do congratulate most for understanding that vestal’ article really was repleat with garbage. Accordingly, most of the brighter crowd (not Diana the fake nurse) had an unusual opportunity to enjoy some very fine, well trained minds with backgrounds in theology, philosophy and some mild economics. I applaud the participants. I thank them a well. It take lots of energy, courage and thought to go at it like you’ve done. For that, I salute you. Thanks again.
johnclarke on September 24 at 8:23 a.m.
John Clark is a fictional character in Tom Clancy novels, John Clarke is not. Not a threat in the slightest amigo. I will meet anyone for a face to face discussion. I have a special interest in meeting people that I suspect are accepting entitlement checks and then railing against it every day at the SR board.
I really don’t get why these discussions end up being about Marx, that’s all a bunch of hot air. Today, in reality people are struggling to get by and the numbers are increasing. I’m happy that we have so many backers of free market economics and stuff, but I have a feeling that many said backers are actually living below the poverty line. The middle class, which drives this economy is in trouble.
johnclarke on September 24 at 8:49 a.m.
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Jason_McQuinn__Post-Left_Anarchy__Leaving_the_Left_Behind.html
In case any of you are wondering how gmorton can spew such elegant nonsense, you will find your answer above. It’s called cut and paste. You should at least give credit to the people that actually write the nonsense you are stealing gmorton, you big fraud. Tell me, are you paid by the post ? Or wait, by the paste?
The_Seer on September 24 at 9:06 a.m.
Nice work, clarke. Not only is gmorton confused, it appears he’s a thief and plagiarizer.
WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!
ChefGus/ John Olsen on September 24 at 9:17 a.m.
Well… as “well trained” as the philosophers and theologians may be…. they do not get the day to day practicalities of living on the street mentally ill, disabled from fighting our wars, thrown out of the house by parents… etc and on and on…. Open invitation for any and all to come and serve in the mode of St Francis of Assisi ( likely the first person to begin the Reformation of the Roman Church). Once you have been up close and personal with our community face to face for a few days you might change your “Philosophy, and your “Theology” Gus
gmorton on September 24 at 10:14 a.m.
johnclarke wrote,
“In case any of you are wondering how gmorton can spew such elegant nonsense, you will find your answer above.”
Oh, my. We go from *ad hominems* to *ad baculums* and now to libel.
I’d never seen that essay before you linked to it, John. And not a single sentence I wrote can be found in it. If you contend otherwise, quote it.
gmorton on September 24 at 10:32 a.m.
ChefGus/ John Olsen wrote,
“Open invitation for any and all to come and serve in the mode of St Francis of Assisi ( likely the first person to begin the Reformation of the Roman Church).”
You have unwittingly endorsed the thesis I, woamike, Cougar, and others have been expounding, John. Francis of Assisi did not attempt to divest himself of the duties his principles imposed upon him by relegating them to the State.
gmorton on September 24 at 10:39 a.m.
The_Seer wrote,
“Nice work, clarke. Not only is gmorton confused, it appears he’s a thief and plagiarizer.”
See response to johnclarke above.
But your response certainly reveals the superficiality of your understanding of Marxism.
ChefGus/ John Olsen on September 24 at 5:47 p.m.
Hey Guys…. the volunteer work I do… and Hundreds perhaps thousands of others do in this city are just that… time and talent and even money of our own to do as St Francis…. my points have to do more with the seeming fact that there is a fair number in the local population that DO Not get out and “help” ….. our efforts at Catholic Charities and at Shalom, and UGM, and Salvation Army are largely funded by “us”….. we’d like some help from outside sources..
SO… my “offer” to youse guyz is to come on down and meet us and you may or may not be so stand offish and critical…but might actually be moved to change your own direction… as mine was changed in Panama City in 1968 when living on the economy, and living In Panama city, under martial law… taking my “garbage” out each night, where “kids who were hungry” would take it away for their dinner…. My life changed … pivot point… and I gave up on the Chris Craft on Lake Coeur d’ Alene and the 450 Mercedes SEL i’d seen in my “future” before…
I Have lived the “HIGH END” drove a Range Rover…and the aforementioned SEL…. but i am much more “happy” as a 3rd order Franciscan, than I have ever, ever been in my life… come on down… see what Siddhartha, in the Herman Hesse Novel saw…. you WILL be changed….. but don’t discount what is being done…. best and thanks for the comments John/Gus
The_Seer on September 25 at 8:25 a.m.
gmorton: You need to return to the post where I read The African Queen as a Marxist text. I stated Allnut is the capitalist, a made up character, right? The boat is the free market. You know, that leaky vessel in need of constant bailing?
SCOREBOARD!
WHS on September 27 at 12:06 p.m.
To Promote the General Welfare…
Promote:
: to contribute to the growth or prosperity of
Welfare
1: the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity
2a : aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need
Prosperity:
: the condition of being successful or thriving; especially : economic well-being
I just don’t understand how this can be so badly misinterpreted by these teabaggers?
WHS