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September 27, 2011 in News, City
Man shot to death by Spokane police identified
Stefanie Van Vlaenderen, left, and Angela Crigger, the niece and sister of James Edward Rogers who was killed by Spokane Police during a standoff Monday night, looks at family photos at Crigger’s house in Liberty Lake on Tuesday.
(Full-size photo)(All photos)
James Edward Rogers spent Monday driving around the Spokane area, calling his family.
Depressed and distraught, the 45-year-old father of seven said it was over – that he had his father’s shotgun and planned to use it on himself. His family frantically searched for him, eventually learning of a police standoff on the lower South Hill with a man in a van.
It had to be him, said Rogers’ father, Alonzo Rogers, who owns the van his son took from their Deer Park home Monday.
Family rushed to the area of Hatch Street and Seventh Avenue to help officers persuade Rogers to surrender, but gunfire interrupted Rogers’ sister’s phone call with police.
She learned of his death three hours later. The Spokane County Medical Examiner’s Office determined after an autopsy Tuesday that Rogers died of gunshot wounds but would not say how many.
Now, as a multi-agency team led by the Spokane County Sheriff’s Office begins its investigation, Rogers’ family questions why police fired as a negotiator pleaded with Rogers to surrender, reminding him of his seven children.
Authorities released few details Tuesday about the gunfire other than to say that Rogers “continued moving around inside the van and refusing negotiator’s requests that he surrender.”
“I don’t feel it was right,” Alonzo Rogers said. “They could have waited for me.”
Witnesses said police continued to negotiate with Rogers after he threatened to kill them and said he had plenty of ammunition. The fatal shots were fired at 8:24 p.m. – nearly two hours after police first encountered Rogers.
In a home video shot by a bystander and provided to media, the negotiator can be heard telling James Rogers that “we just mean to help.”
“You need to put the shotgun down. James, this is not a solution, bud,” the negotiator said. “We understand you have seven kids. They will need their dad in the future – they will need to talk to you.”
About six gunshots are then heard, but Rogers and the firing officer or officers cannot be seen in the video.
Alonzo Rogers said he believes the shooting was the result of inadequate training, or the work of an officer who wanted to be a hero “or just a stupid jerk.”
Police first encountered Rogers after a woman called 911 at 6:28 p.m. to report a suicidal employee armed with a shotgun at SL Start, an assisted-living facility for disabled people at 811 S. Hatch St. The woman said the man fired a shotgun once near or from the van and may have shot himself, but detectives have not verified that claim, said sheriff’s spokesman Sgt. Dave Reagan. A representative for SL Start declined to speak to the newspaper Tuesday.
Police tried blocking the parking lot exit to prevent Rogers from leaving, Reagan said, but Rogers backed into a brick wall and drove across a lawn to avoid the patrol car. He drove northbound on Hatch but tipped the van on its side while trying to turn on Seventh, Reagan said.
Rogers refused to leave the van, and officers – joined by the Spokane police SWAT team, the sheriff’s helicopter and the bomb unit’s robot – tried for nearly two hours to talk him into surrendering.
Police have not said how many officers fired shots, but Reagan said arrangements are being made to interview more than 20 officers who responded to the scene.
Detectives are also seeking other witnesses, and emphasize that “anything witnesses saw or heard could be critical to the investigation,” Reagan said.
Meanwhile, Rogers’ family spent Tuesday trying to comprehend his death. Family said Rogers graduated from Clarkston High School, worked as a military police officer until the mid 1990s and is an experienced baker. His children range in age from 5 to 24, including a son with the U.S. Army in Afghanistan.
Rogers’ sister, Angela Crigger, cried Tuesday as she looked through photos of him as hospital chaplains sat nearby. Her children soon arrived at their Liberty Lake home and were told of their uncle’s death.
She said her brother, whom she describes as her best friend, stopped by SL Start to say goodbye in what she believes was another cry for help.
“I know he was crying out for help – I know it,” Crigger said. “He wouldn’t have killed himself.”
Rogers had worked for SL Start for about a year as a care provider for disabled residents but had recently been told by the state that he needed to undergo alcoholism counseling to keep his license, said Alonzo Rogers.
James Rogers served six months in prison for a drunken chase with police in Whitman County in 2010. He underwent alcohol rehabilitation but had likely started drinking again, his father said. He was depressed about the counseling requirement and had been told he needed to pay about $350 a month instead of attending free counseling at the Spokane Veterans Affairs Medical Center, his father said.
“That started him downhill,” Rogers’ father said.
Alonzo Rogers said his son worried abut losing his job and felt hopeless. He said so when he called Tuesday. Alonzo Rogers and his wife, Barbara, didn’t realize he’d left the home with their van and shotgun until he told them.
“He kept calling us over and over’ and said where he was – a grocery store, a restaurant – but he was always gone when family arrived, Alonzo Rogers said.
Rogers said his daughter contacted police when she learned of the standoff and told them the shotgun was broken and difficult to reload. But the gun could fire a single round.
“We don’t know if there was even one in it,” Rogers said.
Police have not said if Rogers ever fired a shot.
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empyrius on September 27 at 12:07 p.m.
7 children . . .
Whatever paycheck dude was getting was not enough; especially if he had other monthly bills like gas for his van …: the dude probably lived in his van.
45 and no future! Check out time!
God keep you Jimmy.
westerly on September 27 at 12:15 p.m.
Wow..quite a bit of shooting going on in Spokane last 10 months!!Wow….all american city?
jane on September 27 at 12:44 p.m.
Man with gun, willing to use it. Ends up dead. No one else killed, good ending. Sad about the kids though, but does not sound like much of a role model.
misjustice on September 27 at 1:53 p.m.
Condolences to his family and friends. His kids and wife will now be supported; by SSI payments, instead of his paycheck.
I wonder what pushed him over the edge?
Squid on September 27 at 2:12 p.m.
Say what? A bystander was allowed to be on the scene, but the reporter was not?
misjustice on September 27 at 2:15 p.m.
Hmmm, the homicide victim was mentally ill and suffering from alcoholism. He was also a Veteran.
Our wonderful SPD would not let his father talk with him.
KXLY has more information on his background…
http://www.kxly.com/news/29318457/detail.html
meghannc on September 27 at 2:18 p.m.
I’ll be talking to the family in a half an hour and will have a full story this afternoon.
Kivaari on September 27 at 2:35 p.m.
misjustice, Why don’t you wait for a full and complete report from the police? Maybe SPD wanted to secure the area and then introduce family members to talk. As reported elsewhere SPD was rounding up family members to help. Sometimes people called in to help actually trigger the final event. Everyone is being too critical, too soon.
BlondeSquawker on September 27 at 2:40 p.m.
Poor guy. Served our country and this is what he gets???
BlondeSquawker on September 27 at 2:44 p.m.
….suicide by cop.
Kivaari on September 27 at 2:52 p.m.
Blonde, What does being a veteran have to do with the story? I just don’t get why being a vet means much. Iserved in both the Army and Navy - so what?
jddavis on September 27 at 3:27 p.m.
Too bad the incident ended up with a man dying…no matter the circumstance. Condolences to his family and friends.
zelda on September 27 at 3:46 p.m.
I am being generous to the SPD, but would venture a guess that the man aimed his weapon at officers and there was a split-second determination made by an officer or officers that shots were imminent and he was killed.
One hour of negotiating seems short given that some stand-offs last several hours. As has been said previously, let’s hope for a full and objective investigation of the circumstances (but that might be too much to hope for).
I’m glad that a citizen had the presence of mind to turn on a cellphone and capture some of the audio during the incident. That’s important evidence that won’t be erased, lost or denied.
BlondeSquawker on September 27 at 3:47 p.m.
KIvaari, too bad, it sounds like you are not proud of your service to the USA. :(((
Kivaari on September 27 at 4:16 p.m.
Blonde, I am very proud of my service. It is just that most “troubled vets”, were troubled people before they were vets. If I wasn’t a proud vet I would not have enlisted twice. Being a vet is special in that only 1% of the people are willing to do it. But with rare exception most vets are just ordinary people doing ordinary work. We have a few serious heros that go into great danger. Most of those are having a good time most of the time. They work hard and fight hard. Those are real heros.
When I was in Vietnam, I never heard a bullet go by. We just did our jobs, working very hard helping the real warriors.
Kivaari on September 27 at 4:21 p.m.
Zelda, One hour was a lot of time. The decedent determined when to end his life. From all I can gather the cops were happy to keep negotiating. It is very unfair to say they got tired of negotiating and just killed him. I suspect it would have gone on long enough that the guy gave up, had he wanted to. His personal history is of a man troubled his whole life. Prior suicidal ideations, anti-cop, felony conviction, prison time, three marriages, substance abuse and seven kids by how many spouses? Sometimes people display great cowardness and force a cop to shoot them. Why bring that grief onto others?
zelda on September 27 at 4:36 p.m.
Kivaari — That’s not what I meant at all. In saying one hour was a short negotiating time, I was observing that the officers would no doubt have talked to him longer except that it appears the man took some sort of action that precipitated fatal shots being fired.
It sounds like the guy was self-destructive and adding alcohol to the situation made him crazy drunk, impairing what little rational ability he had.
Kivaari on September 27 at 4:53 p.m.
Zelda, Thanks for your clarification. I am sure the officers would have stayed many hours longer. In similar situations the introduction of “tear gas” or impact rounds just are not practical. Two assets the police have are negotiators and time. When the after action report comes out I am confident that you will be right.
misjustice on September 27 at 5:15 p.m.
Hmmm, Kalimari, why don’t you wait for a full and complete report from the police?
Well, as full and complete as the City and County are willing to give, any who how?
Oh, I get it, you can dictate to other folks but can’t take your own advice.
Kivaari on September 27 at 5:37 p.m.
Misinjustice, Where have I not done that? I can comment about what one would normally expect under similar circumstances. I think Zelda has some good points and seems to have a better grasp on issues then you. I commented early on this story because so many people were complaining that the police didn’t give the man enough time. Obviously the transcript showing a few seconds of negotiating was the trigger for this man. Some said why not use teargas. Obviously there wasn’t time to do so. Other said use less lethal like bean bag rounds and TASERs. Well none of those devices were practical for a subject in an over turned van. Would you get closer then 21 feet trying to deploy a TASER, when the man has a shotgun? Did you know a bean bag round often bounces off of auto glass? Did you know that tear agents don’t make the man a lesser threat? Can a shotgun loaded with buck shot or slugs kill at greater ranges - so the “kill zone” was several hundred yards deep? What did the subject do in the seconds prior to the shots being fired?
The_Seer on September 27 at 5:38 p.m.
^^^^^^
Well said, my Peep!
BTW, Where’s MY tax cut?
Thayne on September 27 at 5:48 p.m.
OK all you gun experts - what’s the effective range of a shotgun. 30 Yards? I mean Dick Chaney shot a guy in the face from 10 yards and the guy lived. This guy was in his van - not going anywhere. Why not stay out of effective range and wait him out? In an earlier report I heard the mouthpiece for the SPD said he was a threat to the community. What - they were letting pedestrians walk by the van while he was in it? How many does this make that the police shoot and then ask questions? Now the Sheriff and WSP are going to investigate. I’m sure it will be completely transparent and aboveboard - just like Zhem, Creach and the other deadly incidents. Why not have a truly impartial investigation by an out of state entity? When is the FBI going to concerned enough to start asking questions?
oink on September 27 at 5:53 p.m.
Kivaa.., most “troubled vets” were troubled people before they became vets…
Therefore most “bad cops” were bad people before they became cops!
Add to that the local Police officer standard and training class motto is….” don’t suffer from P.T.S.D. go out there and cause it.”… Therefore all cops are bad cops.
And of coarse you have the facts to back up your insult to the combat troops of this counrty. Lets have those facts or climb back under your rock. If you brought that rock you were hiding under back from Nam.
meghannc on September 27 at 6:09 p.m.
One correction to misjustice, I talked to Rogers’ father and he never said police wouldn’t allow him to talk to his son. He said they welcomed him to do so and asked him what vehicle he was driving so they could be prepared for his arrival, but shots were fired before he arrived. Never did he say that police refused to allow him to help negotiate. Look for a full update shortly.
misjustice on September 27 at 6:14 p.m.
Well, then, Meghan, your competitors got the story wrong I guess.
“Alonzo Rogers said that while he was upset at police because he wasn’t able to talk with his son during the standoff, and he was upset his son was shot and killed.
“I am upset with the police because I have no doubt I could have talked him out. He did listen to me,” he said.”
http://www.kxly.com/news/29318457/detail.html
Kivaari on September 27 at 6:17 p.m.
Thayne, Effective range and lethal range are two different things. A slug can easily kill at a few hundred yards. The issue becomes can you hit that far or does a stray shot just travel three blocks and knock someone off. A typical 12 ga. Foster slug has 10 inches of drop from 0 to 100 yards. If it was a sabot slug from a rifled bore (very popular now days) the effective range is increased, as is the danger zone. 00-buck shot or 000-buck shot (.33 and .38 dia. respectively) can kill at several hundred yards. Effective range , depending on gun and ammo is normally considered to be 25m. Newer “tactical ammo” is lower velocity - but the patterns are tighter. With older 00-buck a standing man at 35m may be completely missed by the 9 pellets. But, each pellet is still going somewhere. A case in Lewis County (WA) resulted in a hostage being hit when the deputy shot at the suspect. It is a shot that should not have been taken. If I remember right the distance was near 100 yards (nee to research it again). The lower velocity tactical loads deform the pellets less, so patterns improved and penetration actually improved thanks to less distortion. I have used the Remington M870 - 14” with Remington 000-8 pellet load and had patterns in the 15 inch diameter range at 25 yards. By shotgun standards that is a tight pattern. We shifted to 9mm SMG or AR15’s reserving shotguns for rubber baton loads. Shotguns were just too short range AND had too many random projectiles sailing around. A rifle can deliver a single accurate bullet with less risk to the public. It is easy to bounce a tin can with the MP5 SMG at 70 yards. That is hard to do with a shotgun.
misjustice on September 27 at 6:19 p.m.
I agree with Thayne’s post. Mr. Rogers wasn’t going anywhere with a wrecked van on its side. Why couldn’t the “highly trained” SPD have contained the perimeter and simply waited for his dad to get to the scene?
Kivaari on September 27 at 6:33 p.m.
misjustice, That is what they were trying to do. Remember the lethal range of a shotgun projectile can be several blocks. It isn’t that he could aim at anything specific and be ensured of a hit. It is just that any shot taken without a back stop can travel a long ways and kill or injure a person. Being three blocks away and having a stray 1 ounce chunk of lead hit you, it will hurt. Within a couple hundred yards a slug will easily go through a wall. Police couldn’t contain the projectiles had he shot. There is no way to know what ammo he has until it is checked, or it hits something.
zelda on September 27 at 6:38 p.m.
misjustice — I think what his dad might be trying to say is that he never got the chance to talk to his son, not that he wasn’t permitted the opportunity.
Maybe I’m giving too much credence to the SPD account, but to me it doesn’t take a quantum leap to surmise that the guy pointed the gun at the officers and was fixing to pull the trigger.
We don’t live in Syria. I have a hard time believing, as some are postulating here, that the cops got bored or fed up and summarily executed the guy.
This was the SWAT team. They have training in situations such as this. Standoffs aren’t unusual for them and there have been many incidents in Spokane where they waited outside houses for several hours waiting for a suspect to surrender.
Kivaari on September 27 at 6:43 p.m.
Perimeter containment isn’t instantly put in place. The threat is centered around the van. The first officer on-scene set up a close lock down. Additional officers arriving both strengthen that line, then start expanding the lock down and evacuating innocent people. Try to close down an area three blocks in diameter. That takes lots of officers. Then try to get people to either leave the area under escort or hunker down in a safe place. Many home within that zone don’t have a safe area. Then start dealing with the people walking through the area. Home owners or visitors not aware of the situtation going to their vehicles and driving into the scene. It will take dozens of people and a long time to do that. but I guess SPD is supposed to do this instantly, even though every officer on duty has moved to the scene - but calls for service keep coming in. When these things go down, so do the batteries in many portable radios. The fist thing that fails is communication. I would challenge misjustice to coordinate a lock down of an area six blocks in diameter, and do it before the subject decides to get themselves shot. Why do people assume this can all be done is a few minutes? What intersection does the officer abandone so he can respond to a robbery or rape across town. Then who is responsible for people moving past his former station? People this isn’t easy stuff to do.
Kivaari on September 27 at 6:44 p.m.
Zelda, You are right.
brianrbreen on September 27 at 6:55 p.m.
I guess this goes here now.
@Selkirk
I don’t remember one since I started paying attention in 1969. There have been some that were clearly accidental and were the product of poor weapon management, and were identified as such. But I understand where you are coming from
In this case no one in the public at this point knows what the hell happened, and now the only reference to the man taking a shot in the parking lot was from a KXLY reporter and nothing since, so who knows.
@Squid
I don’t know about the various scenarios you mention, I wasn’t there. I will however tell you this, and it is one of my pet peeves in cases like this where you have a lot of time. Some agencies when there is a SWAT call up with a barricaded suspect will video the whole thing just to cover their ass (I would really not like to hear the old the camera lights expose our people, if you don’t mind and you know why, nor all the cove-up crap). But that is not to say that there was anything wrong in this case. If when the facts come out I see something, I’ll be the first in line to say something, even if I have to go graveyard. Keep this in mind though when it comes to someone who is suicidal the cop has to decide if the person really is suicidal and will take someone with them or if they can be talked down. It’s damned if you do, dead if you don’t.
Like I pointed out before, as much as Ozzie would like to escape from the Zehm case, he can’t. He is hoping it will go unnoticed, it won’t, at least with me So when people have a question about the integrity of OID investigations County investigating City or Visa versa I don’t blame them in the least.
I’m not associated in any way with Ron Wright. So Ozzie, if you want to take a shot at me show some balls and do it to my face.
stagfury on September 27 at 7:12 p.m.
What is Spokane’s per capita rate of execution by cop compared to the rest of the country?
Kivaari on September 27 at 7:27 p.m.
Stagfury, Police shootings in the Northwest are low compared to the East and South. Same goes for police deaths. The NW is considered a nice area to work. FBI agents used to comment about back east and out here. Back East the subjects cuss the agents out and slams the door. Out here the suspect invites them in for coffee. Police shootings are few and far between in this region. With very few exceptions the cases are straight forward good police response to hostiles.
brianrbreen on September 27 at 7:31 p.m.
@meghannc
Eric Looney( Sp) KXLY in his piece said the man fired a shot into the air at his work. Did he or did he not fire a shot at his work. If not, where did Looney get that information?
http://www.kxly.com/news/29309915/detail.html
meghannc on September 27 at 7:53 p.m.
That has not been confirmed. The story is being read by an editor right now. It will post soon and you can read all about it.
misjustice on September 27 at 8:03 p.m.
@ stagfury, NYPD shot and killed 8 people in 2010. (In 2010 NYC’s population was 8,175,133 )
http://www.dnainfo.com/20110112/manhattan/nypd-reports-recordlow-fatal-police-shootings-2010
Concrete numbers for Spokan’t are more difficult to find, and my memory does not serve me well…but I did find this article with some comparisons.
“Long Beach, Caif., for example, at a population of 463,969, and situated at the bottom of Los Angeles County’s notorious “South Central” region (and part of the Los Angeles Metropolitan area which, as of 2009, had 12,874,797 people), has on average 11.33 officer involved shootings per year. In 2010, Long Beach had a total of five.”
“Albuquerque, N.M., at a population of 530,636 (metropolitan area 869,684), has on average 6.33 officers involved shootings per year. Although in 2010 Albuquerque had a spike of 11, up from six in 2009.”
“Finally, take Sacramento, Calif., a city of half a million residents, with more than 2.5 million people in its metropolitan area: 2.83 officer involved shootings on average every year, with a total of four in 2010. Even more surprising in 2008 and 2009 there were no officer involved shootings reported.”
“Now, let’s go back to Spokane. With 206,900 residents in the city proper, and just 462,677 in its metropolitan area (which is, incidentally, the population of Spokane County), why are there so many officer involved shootings?”
“Let’s put it back into this perspective: Spokane County has witnessed seven officer-involved shootings in half a year.”
continues…
Dateline on the article was January 30, 2011
http://www.easterneronline.com/web-exclusives/exploring-police-brutality-1.1948935
brianrbreen on September 27 at 8:12 p.m.
Editors don’t know crap, why do they have to read it? Tongue in check! :)
misjustice on September 27 at 8:29 p.m.
******Alonzo Rogers said he believes the shooting was the result of inadequate training, or the work of an officer who wanted to be a hero “or just a stupid jerk.”*****
Were you there? Do any of you know if the victim had actually pointed the gun at the officers at the time of the shooting?
Alonzo Rogers is a family member jockeying for a stand to try this in the media & later in a court of law. Already money being tossed around. If the family knew this man was suicidal then why leave a weapon where he could get his hands on it? Family members not making sure weapons were not available was the beginning of this man demise.
I will support the officers until otherwise found to be at fault. They were negotiating with the man when shots were fired. This time there were many officers & witnesses to the scene as it unfolded.
For those of you just looking to blame another officer is just sick. I think it’s time some of you got another hobby.
SpokyDaBear on September 27 at 8:30 p.m.
One has to applaud the enormous professionalism of the SPD in this incident.
BlondeSquawker on September 27 at 8:34 p.m.
MsJ,
NYPD? You do know what the “P” stands for, don’tcha?
Those guys couldn’t shoot a hole in a hole.
….and Where the He** is my tax cut?
liberal_in_right_wing_land on September 27 at 8:35 p.m.
This looks very, very bad for the SPD……again.
To bad the investigation is being done by the equally corrupt, if not more corrupt, Spokane County Sheriff so we will probably never know what truly happened.
They really need to stop killing our citizens, one of these families are going to sue the crap out of this city and police department and will probably win or settle for millions of dollars and bankrupt this city even more.
My heart goes out to these poor kids who just lost their father, I lost my dad when I was 10, so I truly sympathize for these kids, especially for the younger kids.
Kivaari on September 27 at 8:45 p.m.
Spokane had NO fatal shootings in 2008. So lets average a 10 year period. The number are very low in the Spokane area. You cannot take a two or three year period and get an accurate indication of activity. How many officers were assaulted in a ten year period in any given region? How many officers killed people in each region over a ten year period? How did the four deaths in Lakewood effect the “average” for officers killed per year in Washington state? A short period of time doesn’t tell you anything except what happened in that short period of time. How many people on average between 2005 and present were killed by Spokane area police officers? Keep in mind those years had only a few. What is the reason for the recent up-tick?
More suicidal people? Dodd, Groom, Dennis, and Corporon were all suicidal. Dodd had an obsidian knife and was a reported “man with a knife” call. Groom was suicidal and pulled a gun on his buddy. Dennis was suicidal and pulled a knife on police. Corporon was suicidal and went on a shooting spree. What people need to understand, is the police were responding to incidents that were created not by police officers, but by the suicidal men. Maybe the next time someone goes nuts, just don’t call the cops. Let the person run their course. Maybe they will kill themselves or someone else. At least you couldn’t blame the cops.
misjustice on September 27 at 8:48 p.m.
Awwwww, don’t worry too much about the taxpayers having to make a big payout to the families of the deceased liberal, the City, the SPD, and the shooters will just delay the trials; like they are doing in Otto’s case.
Kivaari on September 27 at 8:55 p.m.
Misjustice, Isn’t that the same NYPD with 40,000 officers? Isn’t it the same NYPD that put 41 bullets into an unarmed man reaching for his wallet? Isn’t it the same NYPD that was so cheap it only issued low-grade target practice ammo instead of “real” JHP ammo? Isn’t it the same NYPD where commissioner Kelley said they were prepared to shoot down civilian aircraft? Isn’t it the same NYPD with rampant corruption going back to time one? Isn’t it the same NYPD where when a minor call comes in 20 cops show up with machine guns, helmets, dogs, helicopters, boats and all the toys paid for by Uncle Sam? There are more cops in low-crime Time Square at 3 AM then there are in all of Spokane county. If I remember right they have more cops convicted of mob murders then any place except New Orleans, Newark and Chicago. About 150 cops die each year. About 4 times that amount of bad guys are killed by cops. Civilians kill quite of few bad guys as well. I’d say it is the bad guys that get themselves killed.
misjustice on September 27 at 9:04 p.m.
My point is that with a higher population and larger force the NYPD still, somehow, manage to kill less citizens than the SPD do. Better training, perhaps? Less corruption, maybe? Less trigger happy, could be? I dunno.
But I do find it interesting and more than a little troubling that for a city of our size there sure does seem to be a lot of folks ending up dead at the hands of the police.
Yeah, to your way of thinking they are all scumbags that deserved it, I know, and the cops are selfless heros.
GaryP on September 27 at 9:08 p.m.
Even though I was not there and have no idea what happened other than what was reported by the media, I think the Police were way out of control on this one! They should have just left the guy alone in the van with his shotgun. Then wait for him to fall asleep. Just because he made threats doesn’t mean he would actually do anything. Couldn’t like a whole bunch of officers all fire silly string at him at the same time as a distraction while someone ran up and pulled the shotgun away? Why didn’t the Police put a giant blanket over the van? Sure it would be dangerous walking up there but the blanket would have made the guy unable to see. You can’t shoot what you can’t see. Besides, they give the police vests. Shouldn’t they get shot a couple times before returning fire? It seems like that should be required. Don’t they make like 50 or 60 thousand a year? What would Doug Clark have done? I’ll wait to hear from the Inlander on exactly what should have been done. They seem pretty smart about a lot of things.
Kivaari on September 27 at 9:19 p.m.
Misjustice, Spokane has 286 officers. NYPD around 40,000.
NYPD has the ability to swarm a crime scene. NYPD until the last few years had serious issues with firearms misuse. Considering SO FEW people have died in Spokane over the years from police action I give them a lot of credit. Sure there have been some blatant screw ups. How many peole this year did SPD kill? 5 I think. This guy, Groom, Corporon, Dennis and Dodd. Average 2008 and this year it averages 2.5 per year. All of them were suicide by cop. In the county what has it been 1 or two? Creach was a screw up, but by who? Who did I miss? The pregnant escaping drug swallowing women shot by a trooper and wounded in a negligent discharge doesn’t count. It wasn’t a fatality, nor was it intentional. People intentionally set out to die at the hands of police. Cowards, each and everyone of them.
Kivaari on September 27 at 9:36 p.m.
Misjustice, Why were more police officers killed in Washington state in 2009 then in New York state? NYC has nearly 9 million people alone, more then the entire state of Washington. You can’t grab a number here and there and get a reasonable picture of what is going on. If you are doing that I choose 2008 as a prime example of Spokanes rate of police shootings.
Squid on September 27 at 9:46 p.m.
We’re better shots.
Ron_the_Cop on September 27 at 10:23 p.m.
Brian,
I think we share many of the same opinions re these OIS/OID investigations and also that an appropriate inquest panel where a superior court presides over the hearing under the rule of law/evidence with six random jurors from the jury pool would go a long way to regain the trust of the citizens of the police conducted OIS/OID investigations. In short this would function similar to a grand jury inquest.
Do you have the Sheriff’s email address? I would encourage you to send your comments above directed to him.
I know there are SCSO personnel that post here from time to time. Actually there was one a while back that we had a very meaningful discussion with in part put down the radical rhetoric that advocates violence against cops.
I find it very interesting that you think the Sheriff is posting in these threads under a AKA. And the other speculation that Gramma is Chief Kirpatrick is also very interesting.
zelda on September 27 at 10:30 p.m.
>>But I do find it interesting and more than a little troubling that for a city of our size there sure does seem to be a lot of folks ending up dead at the hands of the police. Yeah, to your way of thinking they are all scumbags that deserved it, I know, and the cops are selfless heros.<<
misjustice — you and I usually agree on things, but I have to wonder if the, ahem, mix of citizens in the Spokane area has a lot to do with this problem. Maybe we have a higher than average population of mentally ill people who have reached the end of their rope. There’s a lot of despair in this town. Maybe the truth of the matter falls somewhere between the two extremes you describe.
Seems to me this guy was angry at the world. He was just as likely to have shot a resident of the neighborhood but if he wanted to die, aiming a gun at a cop is quick way to get a lethal response.
Think about that guy in Issaquah last week. What were his motives? Does anyone know? Things like that and the Lakewood incident send a collective shudder through communities and LE alike. For all we know he could have been an inspiration to Jim Rogers. I have to think that the Issaquah incident might have been on that SWAT team’s minds when they answered the call last night.
brianrbreen on September 28 at 8:20 a.m.
@Ron_the_Cop
I was just responding to something I was told he said, which kinda irritated me since I went to bat for him regarding the Creach case with some people.
@valleyman
You are absolutely right suspicion doesn’t come close to even reasonable cause, let alone probable cause. As far as the Creach case is concerned from what I reviewed there wasn’t enough evidence to establish anything other than theories as to what transpired. Without getting into detail, in my opinion, there were mistakes made that may or may not have provided more evidence. Some of those likely will become evident in the civil trial. I don’t believe there was anything nefarious involved, and some of those mistakes have quietly been corrected.
As far as any relevancy this case has with any of the others is the lack of confidence a growing number of citizens have in local law enforcement. Not just the people that blog here, but many others, including very respected members of the community.
What I don’t understand is why some of the folks associated with law enforcement in some way can’t come to the realization that people have legitimate concerns that need to be addressed beyond the typical rhetoric. Contrary to what Spokane_Citizen contends I believe the Zehm case will really pile on the concerns. What many don’t realize is the Zehm case involved three agencies of local law enforcement SPD, SCSO, and the Spokane County Prosecutor. During the Zehm case the SO shadowed the investigation so the legitimate question can be asked what did they know and when did they know it, and IF they knew anything why didn’t they speak up. The Critical Incident Protocol was established as a direct result of the Zehm case, and some of the things mentioned in the Worley Report were incorporated. As it stands now, although the CIP provides for another agency to lead the investigation the agency of the officer involved still participates directly in the investigation. IF during the course of the Zehm case facts come forward that establish that an officer who viewed the video after Thompson’s tactical statement and warned him there was no “lunge” and there is a change in subsequent statements made by Thompson then the conspiracy theorists will have a hay day with the current CIP.
No one in the public knows crap about this shooting, and we have to rely on the integrity of the investigation, which I am more then willing to do. There are however those that aren’t willing to do that and even though they may be in a minority that minority is growing and their concerns need to be addressed.
Perhaps Spokane_Citizen will recall the SR article linked below. I would bet Ozzie is glad they didn’t get any further involved.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2006/jul/18/unfazed-sheriffs-office-stands-by-investigation/