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February 4, 2012 in City
Council to tackle firefighter contract
Controversial deal negotiated by Verner up for vote on Monday
Spokane city leaders are readying for a showdown with the Spokane Firefighters Union over a three-year contract negotiated between the firefighters and former Mayor Mary Verner in the final days of her administration.
But challenging the deal could prove risky for the City Council and force the city to give the union a more generous contract than the one now before them.
The council on Monday is scheduled to vote on the proposal. A 4-3 decision one way or the other is likely with Councilman Steve Salvatori the possible swing vote.
After nine months of negotiations, the union agreed to settle a new three-year contract with Verner on Dec. 29 – three days before her term ended and the firefighters’ contract expired.
“Myself and my members realize the economic times right now, and we think it is a good, fair deal for both my membership and for the city,” said fire union President Mark Vietzke, who is a lieutenant in the department.
Under the deal, firefighters would get no cost-of-living raises this year or next. In 2014, they would get a 1.9 percent raise. Under a concession agreement the union made to preserve jobs, firefighters also didn’t get a cost-of-living raise in 2011.
In exchange, administrators made changes to the health plan that will put more money in the paychecks of firefighters in 2013, but has the potential to hold down the skyrocketing cost of health benefits beyond that, administrators say.
The contract is estimated to raise the total cost of wages and benefits an average of 2.4 percent a year.
Councilwoman Nancy McLaughlin said she’s concerned that the cost of proposed health plan changes could outpace increases in tax revenue.
“I would like to give the new administration a chance to look at a more holistic view of coming years,” McLaughlin said.
If the deal is approved, the city would pay 100 percent of firefighters’ and their families’ medical premiums in 2013. The city currently pays 82.5 percent of the medical premiums of firefighters who have medical plans that cover their spouses and children. In 2014, firefighters agreed to cover any rise in the cost of medical coverage above 4 percent. In recent years, administrators say the cost to provide health benefits has risen by an average of 12 percent per year.
Because the agreement came so close to the end of the year, the City Council couldn’t approve it until newly elected members were sworn in. The new council has a more conservative majority.
Mayor David Condon has backed the deal, though city attorneys have said Condon doesn’t have a choice.
“The executive branch did their negotiations and now it’s up to the City Council to decide whether they approve or reject that contract,” Condon said in an interview last week. “That is what the executive branch has provided to them so I stand by what the executive branch has given to the council.”
Under state labor law, if parties come to an impasse and a mediator agrees that there’s little wiggle room between parties, terms of the contract are set by an arbitrator. He or she will determine Spokane’s contract based largely on the wages and benefits paid by nine “comparable” fire departments, including the departments in Tacoma, Spokane Valley, Everett, Bellevue, Kent and Vancouver.
Assistant City Attorney Erin Jacobson said the city’s analysis of the wages and benefits in “comparable” departments indicates that in 2011, Spokane firefighters received about 5 percent less compensation than the average compensation among the other nine departments.
Some of the unions in those departments have agreed to freeze wage levels for 2012, but Jacobson said she is unaware of cuts in compensation.
That means, if the city is forced into “binding arbitration” based on the wages in other departments, the city risks having to pay firefighters more than the deal on the table.
McLaughlin said she’s hopeful the union would be willing “to sit down with the new mayor” if the council turns down the contract.
“I know that we would be taking a risk, but that it would shine more of a spotlight on how unlevel the playing field is for cities under the current binding-arbitration laws,” she said.
Some other council members, however, say it would be irresponsible to make an issue out of binding arbitration when the union has offered what they say is a fair deal that holds increases much lower than recent contracts.
Councilman Jon Snyder said the increases appear to come in around the rate of inflation or less.
“That’s solid in my mind,” he said. “It’s hard to imagine any scenario where the city would have to pay less by going to arbitration than they would with this contract.”
Salvatori, who may hold the swing vote, said if the council rejects the deal, it “means we need to talk some more, not stop talking.”
“I’d like to make sure that we can fulfill any promises we make,” Salvatori said. “On the other side of that, I think this contract is the product of extensive and thoughtful negotiations. I don’t feel that this is an irresponsible contract.”
This story was changed on Feb. 4, 2012 to more accurately reflect firefighters’ health plans.
Closing Geiger: Wise or worrisome? 
Dazzeetrader11 on February 04 at 12:16 a.m.
Reduse the health and the pension contribution. These guys….with ever present and who should be fired..Bobby WIlliams have set up the most costliness programs the city has.
When the 911 system was set up in the early 80’s, never was it supposed to be tied up with the Fire union. Separate those two David/Council and you have lots of room to fix things. Two crews routinely show up…when one is needed. Two get paid…one shouldn’t. It’s a huge expense to the city…at a time when huge expenses are simply not possible.
Dazzeetrader11 on February 04 at 12:17 a.m.
Deduse= refuse
Bruce (aka thatoneguy) on February 04 at 12:22 a.m.
^ oh boy, that is some good stuff right there.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 12:55 a.m.
Remember all the love the firefighters got after 9/11 when people finally realized how much these people do, how dangerous their job truly is and how underpaid they are?
Amazing how in less than 10 years they are vilified by many on the right now as being overpaid drains on cities across the country.
Dazzeetrader11 on February 04 at 2:24 a.m.
Not villified….just in SPOKANE…not NEW YORK….they driven their cost up too much. Let’s not get all dreamy of them as your type must. It’s time to drift back to reality. Verner left SPokane in real debt. She tired to mess things up by signing a goofy contract as some odd sort of revenge for not electing her.
COndon and Council should be cutting back on this outrageously expensive contract. I hope they do. Cutting off the firemen from the 911 system would save millions. Not supposed to be a union between the two anyway.
meadman on February 04 at 3:37 a.m.
Dazed, please explain how the FD and 911 are “tied up” together. As usual your concern makes no sense.
oneanddone on February 04 at 6:01 a.m.
Seems like a reasonable contract. It’s just 3 years - let it go. Firemen and cops risk their lives everyday, even for schleps who think they’re overpaid and those with grammatical dyslexia.
dataxman on February 04 at 6:02 a.m.
Raise property taxes and dedicate the money to the firefighters. That way everyone contributes to the safety of Spokane and the financial well-being our firefighters
Notapatriot on February 04 at 6:02 a.m.
I’ve said it before. Unions will bankrupt this country. 100% health care. How nice. How very nice. Quarter mil a Lear for Bobby. How nice. Have you ever seen that total waste of taxpayer funds emergency response center? How about the multi-million dollar firehouses with copper roofs and all the custom masonry work. How nice. Just like the teachers union IMHO. Waste, waste, & more waste.
gotcha on February 04 at 6:34 a.m.
Notapatriot: I agree with you 100%. Public Sector Unions greed destroy economys… Always there with their hands out. School levys, more benefits, higher salarys always coming at the taxpayers while our economy goes in the tank. I remember after 911 my phone rang off the hook with calls for donations to fire department causes. An obvious ploy to take advantage of a horible event. It kind of made me sick in all honesty. There are many citizens that would love to be making what fire department personal are making, let alone enjoying their work week schedules. Talk about having it made.
gotcha on February 04 at 6:47 a.m.
I just noticed they are basing the pay on Tacoma…. The people of Tacoma are ready to blow up because of the deals passed by their council to the fire departments and police. There are a whole lot of angry tax payers in the Tacoma area with the police and fire deprtments. Verner was a Progressive put in office with Union money. Of cource she went to the table with them just before she left office. What a scam.
DickAdams on February 04 at 7:00 a.m.
A good starting point would be to fire, Chief Bobby Williams.
In my previous life I dealt with 16 separate railway unions and I don`t know of any working agreement that provides job stabilization, which means the corporation (including the city of Spokane) can lay off as many fire fighters as provided under the current agreement. That is one big bargaining chip.
nottored on February 04 at 7:30 a.m.
fire half of them and cut their wages
gotcha on February 04 at 7:48 a.m.
My true feelings is End Collective Bargaining… Unions should not be allowed in goverment … Our tax dollars are being used against us to influence politicans with political contributations. This gives police, firefighters, teachers etc. a huge bargaining chip. Who gets to pick up the tab for it….The tax payer… My generousity has been stretched to the max. Why do you think we got Obama Care… Thank the Unions. SEIU is one happy group of leaches.
nottored on February 04 at 7:56 a.m.
open up these union jobs to others who can qualify for half the wages
Albert on February 04 at 8:07 a.m.
I grew up in Detroit, wherein the respective unions controlled every sector - public and private of the employment empire. Please take a look at where Detroit is today, then consider the entire State of Washington with union-favored mandatory arbitration. Conversely within the private sector, “you’re fired” is not followed by State enforced arbitration.
I appreciate the firefighters immensely, however very few remaining private sector companies pay 100% of their employees health care costs. Employees pay for their family’s health care premiums, so why do we, the people, pay for the entire load for the over paid, union protected, city/county/state employees?
Fair - is - fair as we say, thus let the public sector match the private and let’s move on. The entire public/union controlled system requires Olympic revision, however we all know that “it won’t happen”. Unions control Washington and the results are quite predictable in this replay of the Great Depression.
gotcha on February 04 at 8:25 a.m.
When Spokane leaders meet with Public Sector Unions are the tax payers allowed to attend the meetings??? No… Is the media allowed to attend the meetings??? No.
How convenient.
All we get is the bill for corrupt dealings and at the very least unethical antics of the ones in power.
de3 on February 04 at 8:45 a.m.
“He or she will determine Spokane’s contract based largely on the wages and benefits paid by nine “comparable” fire departments, including the departments in Tacoma, Spokane Valley, Everett, Bellevue, Kent and Vancouver.”
Are these departments really competitors for labor? If so, how many firefighters have quit from one department and gone to one of the others? That is the only their salary comparisons are relevant.
Early last decade, the city of Spokane had 12 open FF positions, and had something like 1,200 applicants of which Chief Williams said 600 met the qualifications. That list was whittled down to 12 hires.
If you’ve got 600 qualified applicants for a dozen jobs, the compensation is too high for the local market.
That said, the above article doesn’t tell us typical salaries, qualifications or hours worked. How can the public judge whether the contract seems right or wrong when we’ve been told pretty much nothing about it?
brianrbreen on February 04 at 8:53 a.m.
I would hate to be in the Mayor and the Councils shoes. Not only do they have to deal with the Firefighters Union Contract, they also have to deal with the Police Guild Contract. All this at a time when there are still multi-million dollar litigations hanging out there including the Zehm family litigation, all of them I’m afraid will be very costly and will likely increase insurance rates.
We haven’t heard one word about layoffs yet and how that may affect negotiations, or service, nor have we heard what roll layoffs might play in negotiations.
meadman on February 04 at 9:01 a.m.
none of you have the brains or the guts to do the jobs these folks do in my opinion. Your comments prove it. So the emergency call center is a waste of time, huh? Do you even know what goes on there and how big an area it covers? Have you ever been in a fire? Have you ever had to work to cut bleeding and screaming kids out of a car in the snow at 4am? Do you want the fire station done the block from your nice house to be just an old quonset hut? Have you ever had to use the services of the SFD? Until you have some facts and first-hand knowledge all your comments are just hot air…..
Birdog on February 04 at 9:03 a.m.
The SFD is the best in Spokane, They are worth every $$ they are paid….every fire they respond to is riskinmg their lives….their EMT personell are the best too
gotcha on February 04 at 9:07 a.m.
I believe the tax payers have heard every hero story in the book as we are being shook and husled for more money and benifits on a constant flow basis. Enough already.
gotcha on February 04 at 9:12 a.m.
Where are the hero worshipers when a man gets injured falling off scafold to build someone a home or a truck driver becomes injured for trying to get food to people. You people get worshiped enough and are overpaid for it.
nottored on February 04 at 9:14 a.m.
i see our fire truck at albertsons getting donuts
nottored on February 04 at 9:21 a.m.
i want our fireman not to have sex in the firehouse and then have the police say it is ok to delete the pictures
Local on February 04 at 9:23 a.m.
Collective Bargaining is not a free market principle. Its’ practices are destroying the US economy. Washington State has an “At-Will” employment law with the exception of unions. Interesting contradiction. We need to level the playing field by either getting rid of collective bargaining or getting rid of the at-will employment.
Easy answer, collective bargaining needs to go.
Commish on February 04 at 9:31 a.m.
The feeling is that the Firefighters Union is greedy. That is a ridiculous statement. They sit down and negotiate their contract and everything they will receive was “AGREED ON” not jammed down someones throat. They (The Firefighters Union) and the City of Spokane negotiation team “AGREED” to the new contract and to shoot it down just because a new team is elected is just wrong. It’s a fair to the Citizens of Spokane and it’s fair to the Firefighters . The prudent thing to do is ratify it and move on…..or like it is said “The City of Spokane might have to pay more for a re-negotiated Contract.”
It was also stated that over the last ten years we have forgotten about all those Brave Firefighters and everyone else who lost their lives on 9-11. The profession is still the same and to those who accuse the Firefighters as greedy….”Shame on you.”
biker on February 04 at 9:35 a.m.
Same old story. No big wage increase but make a concession over here (health benefits) that will in the long term be more costly. Public safety needs to be lowered back to earth. Too many gains were made over the last dozen years when in reality, they truly did not suffer like the rest of us when the economy collapsed. Health benefits, 100 percent for the entire family…really! This has got to stop. Firefighter and police are not heroes. There is a line a block long for their jobs and most would be willing to work at a fraction of the wage and benefits. It’s a public service, not an upper middle-class stepping stone. Stop this now mayor.
nottored on February 04 at 9:36 a.m.
just because some of the time your job is dangerous does not say that your not greedy
westerly on February 04 at 9:41 a.m.
Fire and police are eating cities budgets up. Spokane cannot afford their demands. Spokane is poor, no industry, no huge companies. 50 percent of all working in Spokane work for government, they don’t create a product that is sold and resold and adds value. Binding arbitration is the killer, your legislators enacted this long ago. What Seattle, Tacoma fire and police get, with their vibrant economies, Spokane deserves this also. But, Spokane is like day and night comparing to the coast. Free medical, unheard of in private business. The ‘poor’ fireman cliche is well over played. We are all ‘heroes’, is getting old. They are well compensated, best payed employees in all cities..and they demand more! Pretty soon most working fireman will pull in $60,000 in 2 years and will be making $100k a year after 5 years. Then you have the Lieut.,Capt, Bat chiefs, all making up to $200,000 a year.And this is wages only, add in medical, pensions , overtime, adds tens of thousands to their salaries. Never ends, the power of compounding dollar amounts is staggering, lousy 2-3 percent a year, but at 6 digit salaries it is staggering effect. Got to have them, but they would still put out fires etc with less money. 60,000 calls a year,,,,140 of them were actual fires. So, where will it end? 9-11 made them standout and they will not back down now that they are in the limelight.Spokane working stiffs have to shell out a lot more taxes to get this vibrant money making union rolling at faster speed.All the moneys city should be going to the poor of Spokane in form of allotments, is going to you know who.
johnclarke on February 04 at 9:45 a.m.
There is no question that when needed, firefighters perform a difficult, dangerous and needed job.
However, we don’t need duplicate EMS. Based on their own report, having firefighter EMS does not increase response times or save lives. That leaves less 70 structure fires a year; of these how many lives were at risk? Now go look at the city budget. On top of all the money already going to fire, we have the levy system, funded by the taxpayer.
Taking all the emotion and bravery etc etc off the table - take a pure risk based approach to this issue.
Smokie on February 04 at 9:46 a.m.
It’s funny, when I was in the military, I made more money and had better benefits than I do working as a firefighter/paramedic (adjusted for inflation). Back then, no one said that I made too much or that I should be fired and be replaced with someone who would do my job at half the cost.
Then, I was protecting your feeling of “freedom.” Now, I am only keeping blocks of buildings from burning down a few times a year, saving your grandpa’s life by doing the work of an ER physician in his living room, running into your house that is on fire to save your cat, etc. etc. Even if you don’t give a rip about your life or your neighbor’s, if you didn’t have a professional fire department in your city, you would eventually not have a city. It’s happened before.
Collective bargaining is a human right, recognized by every civilized nation in the world. That some of you would rather have slaves do your bidding, says not only a lot about your nature but also about your grip on reality.
If the city council votes to reject this contract offer, voters will get to see the result of voting for ideologue politicians. They may be a little more rational the next time at the polls when they are reminded of how much their ideologue politicians cost them when they rejected a more-than-fair contract. It will be easy to remind voters of this during the election season.
As a citizen of the city of Spokane, I take some solace in realizing the bulk of the negative comments posted here are from folks who probably don’t even live in the state, let alone the city.
nottored on February 04 at 9:51 a.m.
just say no to unreasonable fire fighter demands
gotcha on February 04 at 9:54 a.m.
Keep in mind these poor stiffs have to work 24 hour shifts… ALL TEN OF THEM A MONTH. How horrible.
How many people here would like to work ten days a month. Of course if you ask them, they will tell you they work like sixty hours a week… Talk about fuzzy math. I would love to get paid for eating and sleeping.
Smokie on February 04 at 9:54 a.m.
westerly, your facts and figures are wrong. Five years? $100,000? Really? Come on.
One forgets that Spokane Valley is also among the city’s comparables. Also, the cities you mentioned have a B and O tax to pay for public safety. Surely, you aren’t asking for that in Spokane are you?
The numbers are the numbers. They don’t lie and the more you try to spin them, the more desperate you sound.
Also, I think that in the article it said that it was a 2.4% increase per year. Whereas, I have been told that it is 2.4% over the life of the contract. An honest mistake in the article, I believe.
Smokie on February 04 at 9:57 a.m.
nottored, are you a firefighter saying that a zero % payraise is ridiculous? These are tough economic times and that’s why most firefighters voted for this contract - to help the city out. Or did you mean something else?
nottored on February 04 at 9:58 a.m.
do the fire fighter get paid for sleeping and eating?
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 9:58 a.m.
I am just stunned at some of these comments…..well actually not really, this is just the typical hate you would expect from the right.
Love how people bash unions….yes unions are so evil, they control less than 9% of the countries work force yet they are so powerful they are destroying the WHOLE country. It wasn’t the TWO unfunded and unpaid decades long wars, the unfunded and unpaid tax cuts for the rich, the unfunded and unpaid Medicare Part D or the unfunded and unpaid TARP bailout the republicans gave to the banker friends on Wall Street. Nope, its the UNIONS!!!!!!
To me, it sounds like all these people are complaining because they were not smart enough to join a union when they got a job. Now, they are working at a crappy job where their corporate masters have screwed them for 20-30 years straight, not giving them any raises and continue to cut back on their benefits like health care and retirement.
Instead of taking that anger out on the people who they should be - the CORPORATION WHO ARE SCREWING YOU WHILE MAKING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS - they instead take it out on union workers of teachers and firefighters and police and nurses, you know all these high paying jobs that provide essential services to everyone.
When I read some of these comments on here, it just looks like you are saying….CRY, WHINE, COMPLAIN, CRY, WHINE COMPLAIN, UNION PEOPLE ARE SMARTER THAN ME AND THEY HAVE GOOD JOBS AND GOOD BENEFITS AND I AM BEING SCREWED BY MY CORPORATE MASTER, CRY, WHINE, COMPLAIN, CRY, WHINE COMPLAIN.
Little whiny babies.
Smokie on February 04 at 9:59 a.m.
biker, city firefighters have to pay for their family’s health benefits. In fact, they doubled this year.
Smokie on February 04 at 10:01 a.m.
No nottored, firefighters don’t get paid for sleeping and eating. And in fact, have to reimburse the city for toilet paper if they go number two. Get a life.
nottored on February 04 at 10:03 a.m.
in a 24 hr shift do they get paid for 24 hrs and are they sleeping and eating during this time?
Bruce (aka thatoneguy) on February 04 at 10:03 a.m.
It’s an interesting social trend in the past year or two, to resent people who make living wages using taxpayer dollars. Teaching, law enforcement, and firefighting used to be considered honorable professions because they provided benefits to society. Even working for the (gasp) government used to be considered a respectable, if boring, pay-the-bills-and-feed-your-family kind of career. Now we seem to be more interested in cutting wages for those kinds of jobs than we are in receiving the benefits they provide.
The only taxpayer-funded career that has not been a target of this kind of resentment — yet — is the military. But keep watching. Soon — I would guess as soon as we are out of Afghanistan and all the places that rhyme with it — the grumbling will begin. “Can you believe how much they make? And for what?”
It seems like a ridiculous idea now, but so did vilifying teachers & firefighters 10 years ago…
johnclarke on February 04 at 10:03 a.m.
Well hello there Smokie; Blocks of buildings? Saving my cat?
First, thanks for doing a dangerous job. However, like I said above I wish we could take a non-emotional look at this issue. You and I have been down this road, and unless something has changed radically (correct me if it has) there is no evidence that supports the NEED for firefighter ems.
I really wish you and your fellow public sector employees could understand what your employers (us) have been facing the past decade. Take a look at the median income, the unemployment rates, the people losing their homes. Forgive me, but sometimes you guys seem out of touch. The average joe does not work 24 hours on and 3 days off, with full benefits and pension funded by the public. Also, we know you guys often can have a second job. How many fire captains do you really need? How many times do we have to fund levys for new equipment - because you run it to every EMS call?
nottored on February 04 at 10:04 a.m.
how much does the toilet paper cost?
gotcha on February 04 at 10:04 a.m.
Quit Smokey, Quit………
biker on February 04 at 10:05 a.m.
Smokie……what are you smoking. You did not make more money (inflation adjusted) in the military as you are making now. Remember the term “civil service” in respect to what you do and to what level of professionalism you apply to those services. Collective bargaining is not a “human right” and don’t forget there are plenty of very smart people out there that can be trained to perform your duties and would work for a fraction of the cost. No more “save a city block” pandering, or “saving grandpa” scare tactics. You guys pad you call-out numbers with unnecessary responses and “noise levels” just to let us know how busy you are. Rest assured, commenters such as I do not live outside the city. You are delusional. And for the record. I was in public safety in California for almost 15 years. I did it for the thrill of the job….that’s the route many alpha types tend to take. My only regret was that I moved on berfore the incredible wage/benefit increases of post-911 took place. BIGGEST FINANCIAL BLUNDER OF MY LIFE! This market needs to be corrected.
Smokie on February 04 at 10:06 a.m.
When firefighters voted to take less pay than what their comparables would allow, they were voting to help the city out. If politicians refuse that gift so they can make points with their wealthy corporate donors, as a citizen, I will be angry. And I would imagine it will make firefighters less likely to give their yearly concessions when asked to, like they always did for Verner.
But then again, maybe city firefighters will be grateful to these four ideologue politicians if they go to arbitration and get a 5% raise instead of a 0% raise.
Maybe Nancy McLaughlin, Steve Salvatori, Mike Fagan and Mike Allen are really on the firefighter’s union’s side and are going to force arbitration so firefighters will get more. Tricky! Mayor Condon may be being played by these four.
Politics! Who knows?
Bruce (aka thatoneguy) on February 04 at 10:09 a.m.
^ Smokie (10:06 AM) — don’t worry. If that happens it will still be your fault somehow.
nottored on February 04 at 10:10 a.m.
do you sleep and eat during the 24 hr shift you work?
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 10:18 a.m.
Maybe these righties (and shocking enough John Clarke) would like the fire department to be run by a corporation then you have to pay a fee to them if you want protection.
You know, like they have in some areas in Appalachia and the south. You have to pay the firefighters a fee to them if you want fire protection, and if you dont pay that fee the fire department will drive all there trucks out to your burning house and then sit there and watch it burn.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/t/no-pay-no-spray-firefighters-let-home-burn/#.Tt-K9LLNmeM
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/12/07/no-fire-fee-let-your-house-burn/
Honestly, I hope the city council rejects the contract and cuts back on the services so much that if a major fire storm of something breaks out and there is nothing nobody can do because they lack manpower to fight it. And you know this will happen as there usually is a big forest fire in the Spokane area every 5-10 years that burns down multiple homes.
Smokie on February 04 at 10:20 a.m.
biker, Good to know that you think you are an alpha type. And I am sorry things didn’t work out for you in California. Sometimes, it’s hard to be number one.
When you take a break from alpha maling yourself, why don’t you google “collective bargaining and human right.” There you go. Collective bargaining is, as I said, a human right recognized by every civilized nation in the world.
Also, I made $60,000 a year (some of it nontaxable) back in 1990 in the USAF. I also had a great pension available that I could have retired on. I would receive 50% of my salary with annual COLAs and free healthcare if I opted to stick around for 20 years. I would also get social security at 65. I will receive none of this when I retire as a firefighter.
Nice to know you moved up here to Spokane on your fat-cat California pension.
nottored on February 04 at 10:23 a.m.
do you sleep and eat during the 24 hr shift you are paid for?
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 10:27 a.m.
nottored, please, say that one more time, I don’t think everyone saw that comment.
When you are sleeping in the middle of the night do you have to worry about waking up at 2am and going into a burning house to save some idiot like you who hates you?
nottored on February 04 at 10:31 a.m.
i just want an answer to the question.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 10:38 a.m.
I just answered your stupid question. Do you have to sleep at night worrying about waking up and having to run into burning buildings to save people who hate you? No, you don’t and firefighters do, so unlike you and your greedy ilk, I will be thankful EVERY SINGLE NIGHT I SLEEP that we do have people getting paid 24 hours a day to eat and sleep in the firehouse away from their families to make sure they can protect innocent people and even people like you who hate them 24 hours a day by running into burning buildings.
gotcha on February 04 at 10:39 a.m.
Tax payers have no means of fighting Public Sector Unions. They were very clever in puting them together in that the people they steal from can do virtually nothing. All the Unions have to do is buy the parasites that they have to negoiatate with and we have to live with their decisions until election time comes around… Since my hands are tied as a taxpayer I have only one way to fight and that is with my vote. From here on out I will turn down every tax increase requested and vote down every levy that comes up for vote….
If I can not get representation in my goverment that will favor me, the tax payer, I will be forced to starve them into submission with my vote.
jimmy on February 04 at 10:58 a.m.
Here’s your answer, nottored, YES we ate and we slept. Do you expect us to not eat or sleep for 24 hours? We worked, let’s say Monday, reporting at 7:30 am and relieved at 7:30 am Tuesday. That is the equivalant of an 8 hour person working Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Do people who work an 8 hour shift eat? Most have a lunch hour or breaks of some sort, correct. If we don’t try to get some sleep, those 3am EMS calls and 6am house fires are going to be handled by some very sleep deprived crews, not safe for the citizens we work for or our fellow firefighters. So, yeah we ate and slept, what’s is the problem with that? And in case you were wondering we PAID for the food oursleves, it is not paid for by the city. ( common misconception)
Smokie on February 04 at 10:59 a.m.
Actually gotcha, we taxpayers can fight public sector unions. It’s called “negotiating.” And eventually, the fight is settled by agreement by both parties or in arbitration - where many things are looked at - comparable wages and benefits, the financial health of the city, the city’s desire to not tax at a same rate in the same way other comparable cities do, etc.
Sad that you benefit from all those who came before you and voted for your education, your job, your retirement, your roads, your safety, your garbage, your sewer, your health, etc. etc. Yet, you are going to be a deadbeat and not do the same for others.
Sad, but totally believable. People like you are why our country is going down the tubes. Enjoy the ride.
Smokie on February 04 at 11:02 a.m.
nottored. I must also confess to sleeping and eating… when I was in the military - on the clock - for days and weeks at a time. Mea culpa.
gotcha on February 04 at 11:09 a.m.
Actually Smokie I will maintain what I said. Public Sector has already poluted the pool they are negotiating with. You people get what you want and taxpayers get the finger…. Same results every time. I am sick of the BS. You can start driving on crappy roads and emptying your own garbage…. See you at the dump.
nottored on February 04 at 11:19 a.m.
how was it determined that a 24hrshift is the most efficient
misjustice on February 04 at 11:26 a.m.
Wow! This thread has been drivin’ round the bend.
I don’t have a problem with firefighters level of pay or benefits. They do a dangerous job for a thankless public. Additionally, many get exposed to dangers while on the scene of fires which can impact their health long after the exposure; for example, burning toxic fumes. So, I’m okay with picking up the cost, 100%, for their health care (not for their dependents though).
At any rate, thanks guys and gals for the difficult and often dangerous jobs that you do.
gotcha on February 04 at 11:33 a.m.
I will sit here and wait for a thank you from all the Union Public Sector employees for furnishing them great salarys, benifits, and unsustainable pensions they are reciving.from us taxpayers.
nottored on February 04 at 11:36 a.m.
Most of us agree the fire fighters do a dangerous job and are grateful for it.
The point is that we as a tax paying public have no options or
alternatives to just agreeing with pay increases, etc.
There is no competition for these jobs.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 11:40 a.m.
nottored, so you want for-profit fire departments? Check out the articles I linked above about fire departments that make people pay a fee. They will drive their big fire trucks out to the houses and watch them burn.
gotcha on February 04 at 11:45 a.m.
Than to top it off, we Americans elect Obama as President… Being the fine bought and paid for union purchase he is, he takes 840 Billion dollar Stimulus and what does he do with it??? Gives it to the Unions……… Give me an Freaking brake. Than Obama and the Democratic congress stuffs Obama Care down our throats that has Union Money all over it…. SEIU is still grinning.
greenlibertarian on February 04 at 11:46 a.m.
Practically no sign of intelligent commentary.
Sad, that.
nottored on February 04 at 11:50 a.m.
If 600 people apply for 1 job and 300 people would qualify for it
the job is being overpaid
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 11:52 a.m.
nottored, are you just mad that they didn’t hire you for a job?
gotcha on February 04 at 11:59 a.m.
liberal… Thats typical left… No substance, no common sense, just wise a$@ remarks.
nottored on February 04 at 12:02 p.m.
any fireman out there, seriously, why do you work 24 hr shifts
Commish on February 04 at 12:10 p.m.
Nottored….You should take the time to see what a Firefighter does in their 24 hour shift. You probably think they sit around and play checkers and shoot the breeze. Actually the work from the time they check in for duty till around four or five depending on the department. Yes they eat during their shift as one would expect if you work for 24 hours. Yes they sleep again for the same reason if you work for 24 hours. They pay for their own meals even for the condiments which they probably have in staples locker somewhere in the Station. What you don’t know and could find out is they’re available for the whole 24 hours…even if they just sit down to eat….they’re off to do what ever they do EMS or structure fires. They are at your front door step within say 5 minutes give or take 24 hours a day seven days a week. What other business can give you that kind of guarentee . I think you’d be hard pressed to find one other than your Police Department.
DickAdams on February 04 at 12:13 p.m.
Smokie, I`m always amused when fire fighters talk about how dangerous it is to be a fire fighter. Of course you broad brush every city in the country, where, no question fire fighting may be very dangerous relative to private sector employment. How you can compare all cities FD in the country with the same brush, is just plain stupid to suggest there the same. Looking at the city of Spokane firefighters over decades, its a very safe occupation. Not so, in sky scraper cities. In my previous life I worked for a railroad where the RR tracks were placed on a incline and ended up very high off the ground delivering ore cars to the ore docks we owned, to load iron ore vessels (they are called Ore Boats). I hate to say this, but if an employee was critically hurt or killed, and the fire department EMTs and ambulance driver employees, were present before the victim was taken to a stretcher, in over 30 years of service, not once did the fire department employees or the ambulance service (I under stand re Ambulance drivers not volunteering) offer to help. The reason was it was too risky and of course most of the time there was no place for a ladder. That high off the ground (175 feet) on a narrow cat walk and no room for guard rails the person who was going to hook up the accident victim who had to be transported to a hospital, not once have I ever hear or see the fire department volunteer to help. I`ve mentioned where the railroad employees were required to perform the very dangerous work high in the air. In Spokane, looking at the firefighter fatalities, its a very safe occupation relatively speaking.
nottored on February 04 at 12:18 p.m.
i have no reason to question that you work hard while your working and that you get wokenup during sleep to go on a call.
Do all cities have 24 hr work days or do some have different type shifts?
Why do we have it this way and is it the most efficient?
gotcha on February 04 at 12:21 p.m.
nottored…. They do not want to talk about it.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 12:35 p.m.
gotcha, no substance? I think you are confusing my posts for your own dribble that has no facts and is just using typical recycled republican talking points.
nw9999 on February 04 at 12:35 p.m.
Wow, lot’s of things to read here. I am a public employee and am grateful and thank the citizens all the time. Do I have a good job, yes. Is it unreasonable for this area, no. Most of my friends work in the private sector and we are equal. People who are compensated like me. UPS driver, tattoo artist, nurse, car salesman, low to mid level managers (like I am in my organization), and so many more.
Most fire departments in the state and country work 24 hr shifts. It is the most efficient because it cuts down on the shift changes, personnel movements, and allows for a variety of training and experience.
We work 46-52 hrs per week, with out overtime. So yes we work 8-10 days a month, but with the 24 hr shift, we average 300-500 hrs more a year than an 8-5 worker with no extra compensation.
Do we get paid while we are sleeping and eating… Yes, if it works out. Do we go with out eating for 6,8,10,12 hrs in a shift because we are busy…yes. Do we go 24 hrs without sleeping…..yes. Am I complaining or justifying, no. Just stating facts.
Do the tax payers pay our salaries…. yes. Do I pay a private sectors person salaries….yes. All my earned wage is put back into our local economy buying products and services from the private sector and paying taxes. I am no different than you.
When the private sector was making far more than us, and getting bigger increases during the economic boom, did we complain no. Yes we have not fallen as far as some, but we never gained as much to begin with.
Communities have tried to move towards private fire and EMS as the main provider and they have almost all failed. Would you like your water provided by a for profit company…your fire and EMS. Our organization is not created to be the most cost effective, we are here to provide a service. If we were the most cost effective we would write a certain amount off loss for life and property. I do not think that is the type of system we want.
I hope this answers some questions. I am sure it will create more, but getting in a battle/argument over personal beliefs is not needed.
Smokie on February 04 at 12:38 p.m.
24 hour shifts. One shift change per day instead of 3. One time a day you have to move guys around to different stations because of absences due to illness or injury instead of 3. One time a day when a cardiac arrest or house fire or whatever comes in and there may be some staffing issues, as opposed to three times a day.
Probably less sick time payouts too. You would have to hire more firefighters if you went to 8 hour shifts. So all you union haters might not like that.
It would cost the city more to staff 8 hour shifts and would deliver worse service to the citizens.
I guess one could ask why the army doesn’t go to eight-hour shifts when in combat. Sheesh.
johnclarke on February 04 at 12:40 p.m.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 10:18 a.m.
Maybe these righties (and shocking enough John Clarke) would like the fire department to be run by a corporation then you have to pay a fee to them if you want protection.
Why are you shocked? We already pay a corporation for EMS service, in case you did not notice…and we pay for firefighter EMS on top of what we already pay for firefighters. Why on earth is it so shocking that I would take issue with duplication of service? What is wrong with have an issue with public sector employees who apparently are insulated from the issues we all face? All I keep saying, and I guess that makes me a bad guy - is the public sector unions could (and should) give a little. That includes teachers, firefighters, police etc. No, instead we all get speech on how they educate our brats, save our lives and keep all those criminals at bay. I am tired of being considered an endless funding source for levys, taxes etc. Tired of the “vote for kids” and the one sided advertising that funnels millions of extra dollars on top of my taxes. My house goes DOWN in value, yet my taxes go UP.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 12:41 p.m.
nottored, of course it’s the most efficient way to have your firefighters stationed at the firehouse 24 hours a day, that way they can respond to the fire or any other emergency as quickly as possible.
If these fire stations are not staffed 24 hours when I fire breaks out, then someone has to call all the firefighters to come in from wherever they may be and that could take up to 30 minutes for everyone to get the station depending on where they live or were they are when they get the call. They then they have to change into their equipment and get it ready. Finally, depending how far they have to travel to the emergency or fire, it could be anywhere from an hour to two hours before the fire department even arrives if these firehouses are not staffed 24 hours.
And yes, most mid-sized and large cities do the EXCACT same thing. The only places that don’t staff their firehouses 24 hours are usually small rural and volunteer departments.
nottored on February 04 at 12:42 p.m.
Thank you for level headed answers to an honest inquiry.
How many of you fellow firefighters also have other jobs/businesses on the side?
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 12:48 p.m.
nottored, of all the firefighters I know, and I know a few since one of my good friends is married to one, none have other jobs. And its not because they make so much money they don’t need one, its they work so much being a firefighter they don’t have the time to get one.
Smokie on February 04 at 12:56 p.m.
johnclarke, In this contract, firefighters are giving a little. In the concessions, over the years, they have as well. Sometimes it makes the news. Sometimes it doesn’t.
I am sorry that your property taxes have gone up. My house value has dropped considerably, and my property taxes have gone down a little. You should check out the assessor’s website.
Spokane’s firefighters go on about three times as many calls with about a third less people then they did twenty years ago. Compare to other cities and see how much fire protection and EMS costs us in Spokane and it’s a nice surprise. I know no one likes to pay any taxes, so maybe it’s not such a nice surprise.
If you want firefighters to give up a little, you should be supportive of this contract. If you want firefighters to get much more, you should contact your city councilman and tell them to vote NO. A no vote by a city councilman is their way of saying I want the firefighters to get a 5% payraise.
nottored, I don’t have another job other than stirring up trouble on this forum. Other guys might. I know a lot of them volunteer on their days off doing stuff in the community. You probably know some of them while you are there doing the same.
jonathanb on February 04 at 1:00 p.m.
The city estimates that the contract would increase the total cost of compensation of firefighters by:
* 0.79 percent in 2012
* 3.92 percent in 2013
* 2.29 percent in 2014
They have combined those figures and determined that the contract will raise the total cost of compensation by about 2.4 percent annually over the life of the three-year contract.
— Jonathan Brunt
meadman on February 04 at 1:04 p.m.
Nottored…lets fire them all and go to an all volunteer dept
….response time would be terrible, level of training and proficiency would be less BUT it would be cheaper! Of course the savings would be more than wiped out by the HUGE increase in your fire insurance rates
nottored on February 04 at 1:16 p.m.
ok
D Statler on February 04 at 1:30 p.m.
Note to Smokey and the gang, Please excuse the negative and unthankful comments here. I really want to let you know how much our family appreciated your < five minute arrival and saving my Dads life. Your quick response and EMT service left him able to continue a decent life after the scarey grand maul event.The duplicate service others talk about here would probably not fit thru the 36” front door in most circumstances. I also want to thankyou and all your co-workers that sent a very thoughtful bouquet to my mother inlaws funeral service. She always talked about her handsome firemen. You are Spokane’s finest and always will be. Thankyou for understanding Spokane has some critical decisions with it’s finances. Thanks for trying to help with these issues. Medical costs are out of control and our government fails to address it. Costs of fuel and energy do more damage to our economy than any civil servant wages.One needs do nothing more than opening this months AVISTA bill. I am not going to sling mud here. I will say that a few of the posters here are so far out of touch with reality they could be Romneys campaign managers.
ThankYou to all Firefighters for a job well done every call. We are deeply appreciative for your help to our family :^)
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 1:39 p.m.
johnclarke, then I would say do away with the for-profit EMS service AMR the city contracts with. You remember the over-billings issues of patients they had a few years ago? As if it wasn’t already to ride in an ambulance. I also remember hearing about how they seemed to respond slower to emergencies than if the fire department were to respond.
Don’t here those kind of complaints about the tax payer paid firemen arriving to provide EMS services.
johnclarke on February 04 at 1:48 p.m.
I really don’t know why these arguments always have to steer away from the facts and get down to emotional opinions and stories. Smokie, if you are going to throw around numbers - forgive me but I’m going to call you on it. How many of those calls are actual fires ? Hard numbers please. We have 1/3 less firefighters? Really ?
First of all, I have been educated by a firefighter why Spokane could never be volunteer - we are just too big. Facts are - we need a professional fire fighting force. Cool. No one would ever doubt the bravery of a person that actually goes into a fire instead of the other direction.
Second, on the “other job” thing - sure there are some guys that don’t have other jobs but can we are just admit that there are plenty that do? Can we stop denying the truth? I personally know a couple that do, one makes more on the side than he does as a firefighter.
Third, if someone can prove with hard statistics that duplicate EMS makes sense for safety and cost, I will happily vote for it. However, you need to actually prove it. That means a cost/benefit analysis that takes into account the wear on the equipment etc. I hope we can all agree that you will get a bill from the ambulance - right ?You do realize that we essentially pay twice? Once in taxes and once when the bill arrives. Also, I hope we can agree the contractor guys are trained just as well as EMT’s ? If not, then we should not be using them.
nw9999 on February 04 at 2:26 p.m.
John Clarke- With regards to the EMS and EMS vs fire. I agree with some of your facts. We do have duplicate EMS and it is not efficient. We do have less fires, however the life and property danger for each fire is the same regardless of the frequency. We would need the same number of FF’s do safely and effectively do the job, regardless if we did EMS or not. We currently do not have enough firefighters to do that job. Our contractor EMT’s and medics are just as good as the fire ones.
The difference is you get twice the work of the public ones. They do fire and EMS, for not much more of the cost.
I propose doing away with the duplicate private EMS workers. The fire department could take over EMS transport and be cost neutral or a reduction with the service staying the same or increasing. I know that firefighters have been trying to push this idea for years and they have all the facts to prove it. So instead of assuming private is always the answer, let’s look at the problem and figure out the best way to do it.
nottored on February 04 at 2:44 p.m.
who came up with the bright idea of duplicate services?
nw9999 on February 04 at 2:58 p.m.
nottored… From what I can tell the fire department administrations. Various Mayors, council people (liberal and conservative) have wanted to stop it. The facts can never get out to all of them in time to get a majority before turnover happens. If you think only unions have politically power, take a look at big business. AMR is owned by investment capitol firms. You know the same group of people that created this economic crisis. Ones that are only out for the all mighty dollar. They do not care about service. The local AMR employees do, and do a good job. The county gives a single private company a monopoly on the EMS market. I believe someone mentioned the severe over billing of our citizens….
nottored on February 04 at 3:04 p.m.
If we do away with the ambulence, would we still get a bill to go to the hospital?
nw9999 on February 04 at 3:26 p.m.
nottored…. This is not exactly on the same subject but lets talk about it. Yes I believe the city would still bill, it would be at or below what is currently being billed. Here is some more info.
AMR could not take over with out huge increase in the cost of bills. They have less units covering the county than SFD has covering the city. With out this coverage they cannot get to most calls in time to make a meaningful difference. The FD gets there first on almost all calls, and is often there for an extended amount of time waiting for an ambulance. In most calls the FD does most of the treatment of the pt, they use all the disposable EMS supplies on the pt that the citizens paid for. The pt is packaged and ready for transport. The ambulance shows up and takes the person on a drive to the hospital. They provide any needed care on that drive most of the time. If the pt is at all critical the FD medic rides in the back of the ambulance and does care, often using FD supplies. The fire truck has to drive to the hospital too, to pick up the FD medic. All of this is done so that AMR can send our citizens a bill to billionaires can make bigger profits. AMR is not even publicly traded. No stock holders to get some dividends. It is only huge private investors….. you can’t even know who they are.
The SFD has almost all the resources and infrastructure to accomplish this. AMR would have to drastically expand, which means increased costs.
There is duplicate equipment, purchasing, dispatching, hiring, HR, legal, secretaries, buildings, maintenance, fleet, personnel, managers, supervisors, and more.
Remember much of your money from bills leaves the local economy. If it is publicly done, all the money stays in the local economy, and will help it grow and succeed.
So there is duplication of service but if you look at which one will caused the least increased cost to take over it is giving it to the public providers, not the private. Also, maintaining local control and interest I believe is a huge benefit.
johnclarke on February 04 at 3:32 p.m.
nw9999 on February 04 at 2:26 p.m.
John Clarke- We do have less fires, however the life and property danger for each fire is the same regardless of the frequency. We would need the same number of FF’s do safely and effectively do the job, regardless if we did EMS or not. We currently do not have enough firefighters to do that job. Our contractor EMT’s and medics are just as good as the fire ones.
The difference is you get twice the work of the public ones. They do fire and EMS, for not much more of the cost.
Respectfully, I feel this is opinion which of course you are welcome to. This is the sales pitch that gets the levy votes. There are no statistics or facts that support this point of view. Listen, I don’t blame anyone for looking to expand their empire - it’s totally natural.
nottored on February 04 at 2:44 p.m.
who came up with the bright idea of duplicate services?
Answer: who does it benefit?
This is not a new concept and in play across the country. The critic would say it wears out the equipment (if firefighters only responded to fires, they would never get new engines) and it is an excuse to hire more people. The defender of this concept would say that you get “double duty” and “faster response times”. There are no facts to support this, and I’d be happy to admit I am wrong if someone would provide them.
nottored on February 04 at 3:34 p.m.
Does other cities have duplicate services?
johnclarke on February 04 at 3:36 p.m.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 1:39 p.m.
johnclarke, then I would say do away with the for-profit EMS service AMR the city contracts with. You remember the over-billings issues of patients they had a few years ago? As if it wasn’t already to ride in an ambulance. I also remember hearing about how they seemed to respond slower to emergencies than if the fire department were to respond.
I wish you would stick to the facts. Read the firefighter’s own report posted on their website. It states in clear English that AMR can respond FASTER because they study statistics and position their equipment accordingly. Also, let’s be clear - the firefighters control dispatch. They determine how and when the AMR people are called.
The overbilling issue is not the topic today. If AMR can’t be trusted than I’m sure there are plenty of companies that would bid.
johnclarke on February 04 at 3:38 p.m.
nottored on February 04 at 3:34 p.m.
Does other cities have duplicate services?
Yes. Look, the firefighters should either get into transport or get out of EMS. There you go.
nw9999 on February 04 at 4:03 p.m.
This is way off topic still, but I will continue the conversation. I have seen presentation done by our FF’s which looked at Eastern Wa cities, GSI comparable’s throughout the nation, and similar cities in WA. The majority do the EMS transport and do not have duplicate services.
Cities that do transport and do not duplicate services….. off the to of my head. CdA, Lewiston, Pullman, Walla Walla, Pasco, Richland, Kennewick, Hanford, and West Richland. That is with out leaving eastern WA and N. Idaho. I probably also missed some. Yakima and Wenatchee do have duplicate services. The 3 of us are the only major cities in E. WA that I know of do.
John Clarke- You are completely wrong when you say AMR has lower response times. There have been many studies, that show this.
nottored on February 04 at 4:15 p.m.
If we pay for the ems already through the fire dept and they delivered to the hospital, why would we be billed if we already employed the ems?
de3 on February 04 at 4:19 p.m.
Between 2005 and 2010, 80% of the calls Spokane Fire responded to were medical aid calls. The city press release I just looked at did not break out the remainder but those would be vehicle crashes (which often end up being another medical call), hazmat, fire and other.
Spokane Valley FD reports similar numbers.
Why do we still call them “fire” departments if they spend most of their time as the “EMS” department?
May be “public safety” department would be more apt?
nw9999 on February 04 at 4:28 p.m.
I believe the billing would pay for the increase needed in somethings. For instances ambulances. The FD has none. There would need to be some staffing increases. Right now you are paying the city and AMR and the amount is x. Wouldn’t it be a benefit if you paid the city and the city again, and the amount is less than x. I am not the expert. I do know that the total cost will be equal or less and service will be the same or increased, and be more stable.
nottored on February 04 at 4:37 p.m.
seems to me that we should either have the ambulance or or
the fire fighter ems deliver us to the hospital.
Can’t the politicians figure this out?
Seems pretty simple!
JanB on February 04 at 4:40 p.m.
I worked for many years as a home health nurse and had to call 911 at least twice a year when I arrived in homes finding patients in life threatening situations- invariably the well trained and well equipped fire department paramedics arrived well ahead of the ambulance which served basically as transport. I was always glad to hear those sirens!
Nowadays I am a public employee and am paid about 20K a year less than nurses in the hospital or other community settings - and have to pay several hundred dollars a month for my health care benefits - not sure where the posters on this forum get the idea that public sector jobs are overpaid and get free health benefits. They may have in the past but all that changed as health care costs rose out of control.
Smokie on February 04 at 4:52 p.m.
Every major city in the state has their fire department do emergency transport, except Spokane. Just today, I saw a Pullman Fire Department ambulance leaving Deaconess.
There is still room for private companies to do interfacility and be backup on emergency transport in most of these cities.
A fire department’s main job is fires. Plain and simple. That’s where the risk is (although contagions are pretty risky now). It’s also the most valuable service provided to a city which wants to continue having infrastructure so it can remain a city.
Years ago, it was decided that a good way to use firefighters in between fires was to use them to perform emergency medical services. Like fires, a medical emergency gets worse in a very short time. There is a fire station in most neighborhoods. They could get to a fire or a medical emergency quickly. Firefighters are also trained to act decisively and quickly, have vehicles with lights and sirens, etc. So, it seemed a good fit to save lives via EMS in between fire calls. And taxpayers receive twice the service for a little more cost.
nottored on February 04 at 4:58 p.m.
Is one of those issues where everyone knows there is a problem, but are unable or unwilling to fix it?
Commish on February 04 at 5:00 p.m.
Way back at the begining of this dialog that was started the question was posed by…..Dazzeetrader11
“Two crews routinely show up…when one is needed. Two get paid…one shouldn’t. It’s a huge expense to the city…at a time when huge expenses are simply not possible.”
Dazzeetrader11
Correct me if I’m wrong but two might show up and you only pay the one who transports.
Fire Based EMS is the way to go but there’s enough work for the two of them.
nottored on February 04 at 5:08 p.m.
How long have the politicians tried (or not tried) to fix this?
Dazzeetrader11 on February 04 at 5:10 p.m.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 04 at 9:58 a.m.
I am just stunned at some of these comments…..well actually not really, this is just the typical hate you would expect from the right.
What a lil fool…
And Commish…I might know a bit about the agrement…No the Fire Dept gets paid AND does the 911 people for time and transport.
You’re connected at the hip. One doesn’t come without the other. A simple 911 call gets the fire dept before the transport team even comes…but come they do and the public gets charged for both.
In the beginning when the 911 system was set up, it wasn’t like that. I think you might refer to T Rail…who used to prowl the ER’s just gathering data for his union. The grab was made and the same service ( 911) is paid for twice…once to the firemen and once to the transport…the transport people can diagnose and transport. They sure don’t need the fire dept.
Now..please don’t be silly. I’d know how this was set up. Ask Ted..he’ll laugh about it.
Dazzeetrader11 on February 04 at 5:27 p.m.
Smokie on February 04 at 4:52 p.m.
“Every major city in the state has their fire department do emergency transport, except Spokane. Just today, I saw a Pullman Fire Department ambulance leaving Deaconess. ”
And to this guy….here’s the problem…it’s been ingrained for so long, few remember how this occurred. The Fire Dept basically gathered data and then went to the hospitals ( with the directors of the ER’s in tow) and pitched the idea that mortality could be lowered if both Fire and EMT ( 911 people) showed up. SIster Peter and Harry Wheeler bought in to it.then the Fire Dept more or less annexed the transport people. When you see “Fund 991 personel) it’s the Dept and their extentions being funded…moreso the extensions.
There is a reason both come when one ( 911 transport with EMT’s could do the job)….greed. Nothing was ever produced to justify it. The “lowered mortality” idea went by the wayside. No data to support it. Like many ideas…it just never proved out.
30 years on, it continues….never questioned. I do know that if the EMT transport people could be pried away from the Fire Dept, half the price could be saved. And no..this isn’t Daisy….
This is someone who was there in the beginning. Someone who knows. Rail hustled this through…the union rep. We watched in astonishment because the system designed worked very well. Nobody ever imagined the incremental costs that would occur for basically the same service. 30 years later, we’re still waiting to see more effectiveness and a lowered mortality rate by having both show up. The two should be separated…if for nothing else..to save money. Plenty of it too.
smittysturn on February 04 at 5:34 p.m.
I had peanut butter and honey on toast for breakfast today.
nottored on February 04 at 5:38 p.m.
how was it?
johnclarke on February 04 at 5:38 p.m.
nw9999 on February 04 at 4:03 p.m.
John Clarke- You are completely wrong when you say AMR has lower response times. There have been many studies, that show this.
Please produce one.
Birdog on February 04 at 5:39 p.m.
Hey Westerly..you sound like your’e from Seattle and you dislike Spokane..did you know Wa. State Custodians make over $30,000 a year plus benefits?? All the smart people go to the state or local city government for the best paying jobs…you sound like a loser all your life…..
Adelaide on February 04 at 6:54 p.m.
People are making some poor assumptions here. I work in one of the hospitals and interact with both the AMR and fire department crews. We BY FAR prefer the AMR crews. They are more on top of things and just overall better at taking care of patients. Remember, the people who work for AMR became EMTs and Parmedics because they wanted to. How many of the firemen became paramedics because they had to if they wanted to keep being firemen.
A lot of the AMR people make an effort to talk to the nurses and doctors and ask about patients and how things turned out. We rarely see the firefighters do that.
I’m not saying that all the firefighters are bad, just that there don’t seem to be as many good ones. Yes, we have had problems with AMR crews, but if I ever need help I want AMR before I want the fire department.
greenlibertarian on February 04 at 11:07 p.m.
As part of the review, it would seem to me that TPTB should devise a way to get some objective opinion from the various Emergency Departments as to each organization’s performance.
Also, I don’t have a problem with transport costs, or a portion thereof, being billed to recipients of such transport service, provided the provision of such can never be denied based on ability to pay, or lack of non-payment. Most insurance policies would likely cover this, but I wouldn’t make it a mandatory provision that they all must. Such a fee would not HAVE to be high enough to cover it’s true cost and should be reasonable.
gotcha on February 05 at 6:05 a.m.
In the entire bargaining process between Public Sector Unions and city, state or Federal officials the tax payers recives NO representation. The people bargaining with the Unions are the same people that take political contributations from them. It is a more than cozy arangement, and the tax payers are passed the bill. This is why I feel Collective Bargaining needs to End.
Public Sector Unions strive to elect their management, which in turn extract money from taxpayers to increase wages and benefits and can promise pensions that future taxpayers will have to fund. The results are plain to see. States such as N.Y. New Jersey, and California and Washington state where Public Sector unions are strong, now face enormous budget deficits and pension liabilities. These states are sucking the life out of the private-sector economy. Americans have been steadily migrating out of such states and into states like Texas, where Public Sector Unions are weak and taxes are much lower.
As I have stated before Public Sector Unions have made my voice nil in the process of robing me blind, but I still have my vote which I will use to turn down every piece of legislation that ask for new taxes, raised taxes, levies, or bonds. You have left me with one weapon that I intend to use and that is my vote. Until you END Collective Bargaining I will do my best to Starve you into submision.
Smokie on February 05 at 12:04 p.m.
gotcha. Sorry that unions have been “robing you blind.” But gee, do EMS workers have to look at you when they put your robe on you every time they take you to the hospital?
Why don’t you move someplace where there is no collective bargaining instead of trying to remove this basic human right (as recognized by the USA, the UN, etc) from the USA?
Good luck finding that place (other than China or Somalia). Maybe you should start your own country. Maybe you already have.
And please go ahead and try to starve working people into your submission (kinky). Here how to do this. Remember, there are a lot of taxes on alcohol. This money goes to the gubmint workers. I would suggest abstaining from strong drink. You can really stick it to the workers then. Of course, your posts wouldn’t be as good.
Cheerio!
gotcha on February 06 at 6:03 a.m.
Smokie: You think it is some kind of a joke because tax payers are getting screwed because of Collective Bargaining??? Allow me to elaborate.
The goverment is supposed to provide services to the people in a cost-effective way, providing what’s necessary while extracting the least possible amount of money out of taxpayers. The goal of a union is precisely the opposite: to extract as much money as possible out of the organization that it feeds on.
In the private sector, unions actually do work to some extent, because there is a built-in check on the union’s power: namely that the business or industry in question will go bankrupt when the union gets too greedy, but in the public sector, the organization that the union is feeding on is the goverment itself—funded by the taxpayers, the very people whose money they’re supposed to be spending frugally.The union goal of enriching its members is in direct opposition to the goverment’s goal of not bankrupting the taxpayers and the nation.
Of course, bankrupting the goverment is precisely what Smokey and the public-sector unions are currently doing. Cities and states nationwide are drowning in hundreds of billions of dollars of debt and unfunded liabilities, consisting largely of absurdly generous and entirely unrealistic public pensions.
Our friend Smokey thinks all of this is a joke, because he is on the take and gets to laugh at us simple minded tax payers, while he and his buddies reap the benifits we pay the bill. Thanks Smokey. Believe it or not some of us tax payers are offended.
Smokie on February 06 at 12:38 p.m.
gotcha, I don’t think that the issue is the joke. Actually, in negotiations, a city administration always negotiates for the benefit of the taxpayer. And is held responsible in the voting booth.
In case you didn’t notice, cities do go bankrupt and when they do, contracts become null and void. Not good for union workers.
Spokane has many revenue streams available to bolster the city’s bottom line but many politicians are afraid to go there because of unfounded ideological rhetoric (yours included).
I don’t understand why you wouldn’t be applauding the firefighters for wanting to take less than what they will get if the city takes them to arbitration. Your saying NO to the contract is the same as saying that you want to give more to the firefighters.
It is no joke that you don’t know how low your taxes are compared to other places, to other times and other people. It is no joke that you don’t know how Spokane’s firefighters go on more calls with less firemen spending less money than any other city in the state.
I am not lumping you in with the rest of us taxpayers. You are a sad person who probably is living on a pension, social security or medicare and does not want to pay anything to make Spokane a great place to live and does not want to pay for the same benefits that we paid for you, so you could enjoy them. No, you are not like the rest of us taxpayers. And your selfishness, your irrational ideological idiocy is killing our country.
gotcha on February 06 at 1:59 p.m.
Pay close attention. Public Sector Unions are running out of Private Sector money. Many cities in this state are broke and our state is right behind them. If you have’nt noticed our legislators are scratching their heads and on a constant cycle of rob peter to pay paul because they do not have enough funds. Enjoy what you have why you have it. The clock is ticking.
misjustice on February 06 at 6:05 p.m.
When did all of this hate, aimed at first responders, start? It wasn’t apparent on 9-11 when first responders, many of them firefighters, ran into burning and collapsing buildings trying to rescue people. I don’t recall hearing such remarks as those posted here disparaging firefighters in the waning years of the Cheney Administration.
So what gives? What has happened to turn so many against so few? Was it the collapse of the global economy? Was it the organized efforts, started by the uber rich Koch Brothers, to demonize unionized public sector workers that started this continued villification of firefighters? Was it when politicians like Rick Scott gave millions to political cronies and then needed a boogey man to blame for his state’s budget shortfalls?
At any rate, I think that firefighters deserve every penny that they are paid and I would gladly pay more in taxes to ensure that they do not have their pay cut.
I don’t know many occupations where employees are expected to run head long into danger and risk their own lives to save others. And if my home ever catches fire I want trained professionals that do just that; not the lowest bidder that took the position because they couldn’t get a job doing anything else.
gotcha on February 07 at 5:00 a.m.
“When did all this hate, aimed at first responders start?”
No hate, and not aimed at first responders alone. I would say it is more of frustration and fear, it is focused at Public Sector In general.
You might ask yourself How pensions ruined General Motors, stopped N.Y.C. subways, bankrupted San Diego, and looms as the next financial crisis.
In 1980 while Jimmy carter was President and our economy crashed, U.S. workers did not face effective competition from workers in India and China. Goverment was a smaller percentage of our gross domestic product and public employees were not paid so much more than private sector workers. Most importantly, the pension obligations of goverment were tiny compared to today because they’d only had a decade or two to develop. As all of the wealth and value that was in GM eventually had to be transferred to retirees (and then another $100 billion of taxpayer money, when the value of GM’s business was not sufficient), it may be the case that most of society’s wealth has to be transferred to the 41-year-old retired bus drivers of the MBTA in Massachusetts, or the 50-year-old retired fire department workers of California.
The never ending run at tax payers wallets has to stop. Our economy has tanked but we are still bombarded with bonds, levies, new and added taxes, and for what….. To enrich the Public Sector.
Fluffy1 on February 07 at 9:39 a.m.
Firefighters are at 300% higher risk for a heart attack,testicular and prostate cancer, Hodgkin’s lymphoma, multiple melanomas are up to 50 per cent higher rate than the general public. Strenous job, High risk factor. Please people, keep comparing your desk jobs and health care benefits to the people who not only risk their short term, but also long term lives for you all. I’m sure your desk job is just as dangerous.
gotcha on February 07 at 11:18 a.m.
Well, you fluffed that up fluffy….. lol
??Riddler?? on February 09 at 9:11 a.m.
?? True or False ??
(we’ll find out who’s been taking notes)
?? Annual overtime earnings for Batallion Chiefs equal or exceed the average household earnings for Spokane ??
Commish on February 09 at 1:44 p.m.
Do you know if it’s cheaper to pay overtime than hire a new employee.??? Can you answer that Riddler????
justmy2 on February 09 at 7:00 p.m.
Battalion chiefs are not part of the proposed contract - they have their own. Stick to facts.