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February 8, 2012 in City
City firefighters asked to bargain again
Rejected contract negotiated under previous mayor, council
Spokane city officials and the firefighters union are expected to go back to the bargaining table after the City Council voted 4-3 to reject a new three-year labor contract on Monday.
Mayor David Condon has indicated that he wants to reopen talks to reach a new agreement that would be acceptable to at least four council members, according to city spokeswoman Marlene Feist.
“We will go back to the drawing board and see what we can come up with,” Feist said Tuesday. “We hope that Local 29 will be willing to do that with us.”
The contract rejected Monday was approved by former Mayor Mary Verner in December during the waning days of her term.
Lt. Mark Vietzke, president of Local 29, said his membership is willing to renew talks. But Vietzke told council members Monday night that the union is not willing to settle for less than called for in the previous contract.
Vietzke said he was “frustrated” by Monday’s outcome and fears that the council’s decision could sour future talks.
Council members who voted against the contract said they were uncomfortable with the proposed deal, which calls for improvements in health benefits and a 1.9 percent salary increase in 2014, the third year of the contract.
Councilman Steve Salvatori, who joined the council at the start of the year and was part of the majority voting against the contract, said he wants to be involved in the discussions leading up to any agreement.
He also said he is concerned that the city might not be able to afford what amounts to a projected 35 percent increase in the city’s health insurance premium payments for firefighters and their families in 2013.
Currently, the city pays about 83 percent of health premiums for firefighters and their families. That would increase to 100 percent in 2013, but it would be capped in 2014 by a maximum increase of 4 percent to be paid by the city.
“There is no secret what our budget situation is,” Salvatori said.
He was joined by council members Nancy McLaughlin, Mike Fagan and Mike Allen in voting no.
The contract calls for no salary increase in 2013, but firefighters received a 3 percent wage boost at the start of this year under the expiring contract, Salvatori pointed out. That payment was delayed for budgetary relief in 2011.
Council President Ben Stuckart said on Tuesday that he is concerned that the council passed up a good deal.
He said the cost of the contract was less than the projected increase in city revenue, so it would put at least a three-year halt to a problem of labor costs outstripping tax collections.
The annualized cost of the contract was 2.38 percent a year for wages and benefits, he said, which was less than half of the cost of the expiring contract.
Firefighters currently make up to $87,200 a year in base pay at their lowest rank and up to $91,900 a year as fire equipment operators. Those figures do not include overtime pay. The Fire Department and its emergency medical services fund are operating on a $42 million budget this year.
Stuckart said he is concerned that the rejection could harm future negotiations not only with firefighters but with other unions.
He said he was hoping to wrap up the fire contract so that the City Council and mayor’s office could concentrate on a new Spokane Police Guild contract. Bargaining with the guild is expected to include talks over police department reforms, which are outlined in a resolution adopted Monday by the council.
In addition, the city could be forced into binding arbitration with firefighters.
In that event, Stuckart said, the city might be required under state law to spend more money than under the proposal rejected Monday.
Arbitration considers average compensation in comparable departments, and currently, compensation in Spokane is lower than several of the comparable departments in Washington, he said.
“That’s where the risk is,” he said.
The city has avoided binding arbitration over the years out of fear that the city would lose. The last time the city and Local 29 went to arbitration was in 1988.
In addition to wages and benefits, the contract also would have shifted deputy fire marshal jobs to civilian positions, which was intended to better meet the needs of property owners undergoing fire inspections.
Stuckart called it an “economic development issue” in a news release Tuesday.
The release was sent out jointly by Stuckart and council members Jon Snyder and Amber Waldref, who voted in favor of the contract.
“Rejecting this contract puts Spokane at risk for higher costs for years to come,” the release said.
MLK Jr. Way opens Thursday 
DickAdams on February 08 at 6:26 a.m.
Vietzke, needs to know that the city of Spokane means business and the gravy train they`ve enjoyed with reckless spenders of the past has ended. It appears that, 3 city council members do not understand the meaning of NO. Their release that was sent out jointly by Stuckart and council members Jon Snyder and Amber Waldref, apparently think the city has a money tree. If I were to guess, I`d say these 3 council members, listened to the city`s financial guru Gavin Cooley.
If you remember, Cooley betrayed the citizens of Spokane and was the architect who drafted the agreement between the city of Spokane and the Cowles Dynasty strapping the taxpayers until the year 2030 to pay for the River Park Square parking garage where the city subsequent to the agreement gave the garage back to the Cowleses free and clear. Cooley even forgot to talk about the delinquent real estate taxes that hadn`t been paid and after the agreement with the Cowles family was signed sealed and delivered, the Lilac City got stuck paying the unpaid RE taxes. Cooley is another city hall official who heads up the finance department, that Mayor Condon appointed. No question in my mind, Condon either didn`t do his homework re Cooley, or like former mayor Verner, allows him to make the financial decisions for our city. The taxpayers shall continue to suffer the consequence by Condon keeping Cooley, and the taxpayers can expect to travel the same deficit path that Verner took.
Notapatriot on February 08 at 6:31 a.m.
No way. Are you kidding me? Fire that whiner Bobby Williams and his entire crew and replace them with people that appreciate getting a reasonable salary and not expect to get paid to eat, sleep and shower. Get paid to go to the grocery store as well. I love how it takes a full crew in a truck to go to the store. Can’t send the new guy with a list. Union likely won’t allow that.
Remember PATCO? How Reagan stood up and fired them all? I say if they can’t quit whining about the remarkably fat bennie package they enjoy and the minimal amount of actual work they do - then get another job. Firefighters are the only group that most of their ranks have second careers simultaneously because they have so much time on their hands. Wake up and smell the freakin’ coffee. The world is going to hell in a handbag supporting people such as yourselves and quarter million a year school admins and you all continue to stand there with your hand out whining for more.
I’ve said it before. Unions will destroy this country.
If I were the marching in the streets type I’d be first in line at city hall carring a sign and screaming PAT-CO, PAT-CO, PAT-CO, PAT-CO, ….
gotcha on February 08 at 6:35 a.m.
Progressive politicans are a piece to the Public Sector Unions puzzle… We have three of them sitting on the City Council.
Taxpayers best keep their eyes open.
Spokanewaste on February 08 at 6:54 a.m.
The proof will be in the outcome. If the contract is better for the city, the republican majority led by Nancy M. will be right. If worse, then our liberal friends were right. Time will tell. We can lament the unions all we want but they will not go away. It is an institution and institutions do not die. They will always be a cost of doing business.
johnclarke on February 08 at 7:23 a.m.
“Currently, the city pays about 83 percent of health premiums for firefighters and their families. That would increase to 100 percent in 2013”
I don’t know who negotiated a deal where 100% of an employee’s family has free health insurance, but I want to hire that person.
Well, I guess it’s not really free since we are paying for it. Well, good deal firefighters. You have benefits far superior to the private sector.
drywitt99 on February 08 at 7:31 a.m.
Wonder how many of the “four” are willing to run
INTO a burning building??
lewis8457 on February 08 at 7:32 a.m.
they make lots of money, let them pay their own insurance costs, case closed.
gotcha on February 08 at 7:41 a.m.
drywitt99.. Probably just as many as the “three” have ran into.
woamike on February 08 at 8:13 a.m.
“Firefighters currently make up to $87,200 a year in base pay at their lowest rank and up to $91,900 a year as fire equipment operators. Those figures do not include overtime pay.”
Those figures also do not include pension and other legacy costs. At these rates of pay, benefits and under their current work rules, firefighters are some of the most expensive employees in the city. They are a huge drain on the coffers now and the burden will grow exponentially if the tide is not turned on their compensation package and WORK RULES now.
A lot of you who are loose with other people’s money (you know who you are) need to get beyond your emotions (but, they run into burning buildings and save lives!!!) and get real. Yeah, sure, the job is more dangerous than other jobs… but keep that in perspective. For example, our soldiers don’t make near that much and THEY are in REAL danger.
We are paying our firefighters TOO much, their overall compensation packages are TOO generous and their work rules, especially with respect to “supervision” requirements are way out of control.
The city needs to get control of the firefighters and their union. A lot of people have elevated firefighters (and police) to godlike status since 9-11. Firefighters and police are laughing at you…all the way to the bank.
It’s time to take off our 9-11 blinders and go back to the drawing board with these guys (and gals). They are neither gods nor saviors. We need to get real with them (and ourselves) and compensate them accordingly. The gravy days are OVER.
BASE pay of 87K to START?!?!? YGBSM!!!
larry_b on February 08 at 8:29 a.m.
Vietzki says we will not accept a lower contract than what was last given. OK, in the words of the Donald, YOUR FIRED! Send me to school to be a fireman. I will do it for half what they make!
Verbal on February 08 at 8:41 a.m.
I wonder how much campaign money Snyder, Waldref and Stuckart received (either directly or through PAC channels) from the firefighters union….
As I stated yesterday, the real sticking point for me is the city paying 100% of spouse and dependent health coverage. It should be 0% like it is for nearly everyone else.
DickAdams on February 08 at 8:43 a.m.
How many FD employee fatalities in Spokane? I see where one fire fighter lost his life in Spokane, but listening to the way the union talks, they like to compare cities where the firefighters do loose lives, all too often because of sky scrapers and other circumstances not experienced in the Lilac City.
gotcha on February 08 at 8:52 a.m.
They are only making about $1,000.00 a shift pluse benefits, health care and retirement.
ldchristi on February 08 at 9:38 a.m.
Shame on those of the Council and others who are so ready to dishonour a previously negotiated contract with the firefighters. I wish the same requirements were made for those council folk i.e., to run for election you have to pass a rigid physical test, psychological exams, and be willing to live days at a time in a cinder block building with each other and unable to go home to your families. And for meals as you are stuck together in order to be ready for immediate dispatch, you would be required to go as a group together to buy your groceries so you can sit and stare at each other as you eat your meals without being able to share with your family or comforts of your own home.
This new council obviously has an anti-union bias — and who doesn’t realize how much “better” things have been in the airline industry since all those pesty air controllers were fired and their union busted? [laugh here]. This is tea-party time….only by the time we have a chance to vote out this bunch ….. let’s hope the tea in the tea party lovers isn’t really kool-aide.
Shame on you!
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 08 at 9:43 a.m.
Still amazing when republicans think police, firefighters and teachers unions are the ones ruining this country.
Again, you people are truly the dumbest idiots alive if you think unions, which hold less then 9% of the countries work force, is destroying this country. Whats that say about the republicans who let such a small majority do whatever they want and just run roughshod over the republican party.
Even more disgusting are these people who keep saying firefighters and teachers make to much money then in the very same breathe defend how they think CEO’s of corporations should be allowed to make $100 million a year. Unions, teachers, firefighters, police and nurses and whoever else you conservatives love to blame all this countries problems on haven’t done nearly the damage to this country as Wall Street, large corporate banks, oil companies and other giant corporations that have screwed America, tanked this economy and stolen our jobs and sent them to foreign countries paying people 10 cents a day. Oh but thats the free market system, right? The rich get rich and the workers get screwed out of their job unless they are willing to make 10 cents a day, work 18 hours a day and live in corporate housing with nets tied to the buildings so when workers try to commit suicide cause cause their life sucks so bad, they can’t.
Is that the workforce you republicans are fighting for?
I have no problem with our firefighters making as much money as they are…as long as Republicans continue to fight for billion dollar corporations to continue to receive tax breaks and other refunds from the government. Also, when republicans continue to let their friends on Wall Street who they helped bail out with Bush’s TARP Bank Bailout program continue to get billions and billions in bonuses that are being paid by the tax payers.
When you republicans show just a little outrage to the billions of wasted tax payer money the republicans are throwing around to the wealthy corporate donors, then maybe I will fringe a little outrage for the money firefighters and teachers and police officers are making.
Verbal on February 08 at 10:05 a.m.
Idchristi -
If conditions are just too tough for a firefighter (if they can’t stand the heat… - har har), he/she can quit and enjoy the pay and benefits the rest of us receive from our employers.
Verbal on February 08 at 10:11 a.m.
Liberal -
Nice straw man tactic! Now please, lets stay on topic.
gotcha on February 08 at 10:14 a.m.
Sucking the blood out of taxpayers is what the Public Sector is all about.
johnclarke on February 08 at 10:16 a.m.
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 08 at 9:43 a.m.
Still amazing when republicans think police, firefighters and teachers unions are the ones ruining this country.
Liberal, I find myself agreeing with you on many occasions, but this is not one of them. This issue should not be painted as so black and white as Republicans vs. Union. I think it’s more a matter of what is fair. Looking at just Spokane as an example, how on earth can anyone justify this level of compensation and benefits? It’s like a whole class of royality has been created, and it’s funded by the tax payer. I think I read on another post that 8 out of 10 of the highest paid employees work for the fire department. The employees, the driver and the fire captains get overtime. Seriously, salaried management employees get overtime. 100% of their family gets medical insurance? Are you effing joking?
I would agree that unions have been needed in this country, but public sector unions are doing this too themselves. They live in an alternate universe. Republicans are actually USING this issue to their advantage in my opinion. Joe six pack making 24k a year driving a truck and trying to cover his family for medical probably has little sympathy for this situation.
drywitt99 on February 08 at 10:18 a.m.
@gotcha:
But the “three” realize that is a job that is of value to all citizens…..the “four” do not.
Maybe they’d like to co-opt Newt’s idea…..and have school children do it…..or the elderly……or the disabled???
After all….THESE are the citizens most at risk in such circumstances.
woamike on February 08 at 10:31 a.m.
Lib,
You need to come out of your partisan coma. The dichotomy you always set up - that conservatives are against the government and government workers yet for fat-cat Wall Street bankers and the like is FALSE.
I am equally against crony capitalism and chronyism in general. I think that anyone, including politicians, CEOs, hedge-funder managers and anyone else that rapes, pillages and plunders is completely immoral. Their “activities” should be exposed for all to see.
You apparently fail to see that crony capitalism with its unholy alliance with government is completely NON-partisan. You see with great clarity when an “R” is involved, but somehow cannot see when a “D” is involved. You are unable to see that the housing, banking and financial crisis in general was created and exacerbated by BOTH political parties. You think Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, et al are whithout complicity in this mess?
You rail and fight against the symptoms rather than the cause. The government has TOO much power and TOO much reach. ALL politicians have TOO much power and influence. That is PRECISELY why people/business of all sorts $eek favor$. Whomever is in power is happy to oblige. THIS is the root of the problem. Want to fix it? Reduce the power, reach and scope of government. Institutute term limits. Anything that will help put government back in the box that the constitution created to restrain its power over the people would help.
And yes, the firefighter’s deal is TOO sweet and needs to be cut WAY back. If it was cut in HALF, they’d still have a line of applicants a mile long. Tax money does not grow on trees and it is running out. It’s time to deal with the problem NOW.
gotcha on February 08 at 10:43 a.m.
drywitt99..Gurantee the Three have got more of their fair share of political contributations from these Public Sector Unions… Progressive Politicans are famous for approving unfunded pensions and health care benifits to the Public Sector… Why do you think our states finances are so screwed up. Thank a Progressive like Gregoire, Lisa Brown and now these three.
terrymr on February 08 at 10:46 a.m.
Isn’t this the very essence of negotiating in bad faith ? If the city can reject what it’s own negotiators came up with there is no point in negotiations.
WHS on February 08 at 10:47 a.m.
Well put Liberal!
As to the rest of you… All I have to say is, ain’t karma a bitch”!
You know, I wonder what you will do when that over-paid, under-worked, lazy, socialist fireman goes into your buring house and pulls out your burned and scalded child, as you sit outside screaming and crying for help, then without slowing, performs life saving first responder care, all the while ignoring their own pain and burns, to save your child… I hope all you whiners have the “balls” to then tell them what you really think of their service.
WHS
wobble506 on February 08 at 10:51 a.m.
drywit99
I think you are making gross understatements. I think both the “three” and “four” value the services of the fire dept. I think what the “four” realize is the disparity in compensation.
Let’s see, base pay to 89K, plus 100% coverage of health care for dependents, and overtime, and a pension? Granted, not all of them are making this amount, these are the maximums. But think about what those numbers are costing us.
Median income in spokane, about $46K (http://www.ofm.wa.gov/economy/hhinc/default.asp).
I think what the “four” don’t value is the exhorbitant cost.
And before everyone starts screaming, yes, I have run into burning buildings. I did it for 12 yrs as volunteer firefighter, and my pay was 6 t-shirts a year.
ldchristi - those sacrifices you talk about are NOTHING compared to what our military families go thru. Nothing prevents the families from showing up at the firehouse and having dinner with their spouses, and spending time with them.
By the way, none of them work “days at a time”, unless they choose to, as they are getting paid thru the nose for overtime. Get real. Most of the firehouses I worked in had all the comforts of home - Couches, chairs, workout rooms, showers, beds, kitchens, multiple tv’s, computers, etc. What exactly are they missing out on?
Bruce (aka thatoneguy) on February 08 at 10:53 a.m.
Resentment of public servants for making a decent living is a new social trend. It was not so very long ago that teachers were considered heroes. Even more recently cops and firefighters were still respected as a profession, bad apples notwithstanding. Now they, too, are resented for their wages. Job security, rather than being seen as a protection for workers who want to be able to tell their children “you will be able to go to college,” is coming to be considered a protection for incompetents, that no one should be entitled to.
Who benefits from this resentment? Who benefits from, not the removal of job security, health-care benefits, etc., but from the spreading of the belief that these thing should be removed?
Just an abstract question to toss out there…
Bruce (aka thatoneguy) on February 08 at 10:53 a.m.
^ ^ ^ *things, sorry
woamike on February 08 at 10:59 a.m.
WHS,
You have completely, utterly and totally missed the point.
No one is disparaging the work of the fireman or discounting their value. The question is not “what is their service worth?” The question is how much can we afford to pay them.
You need to take the emotion (and politics) out of the equation. Think with your brain, not your heart.
We pay them too much in salary. Their work rules make their compensation even more expensive to the tax payer. Their legacy costs are going to crush us in the out years.
The problem will not get better by itself and it needs to be dealt with NOW.
Birdog on February 08 at 11:00 a.m.
thatoneguy….it is the current popular agenda to dislike…it’s the haves and the have nots….city, county, state, and federal jobs pay the best, especially for no education past high school…all these employees were smart enuf to go after these jobs..
WHS on February 08 at 11:03 a.m.
And woamike, is that what you really want… Some kid with a HS diploma, the kid that just barely squeaked by, you know the one, he took lots of shop classes and still only got D’s or perhaps you would rather see that overweight, lazy, desk pilot, you know the guy who supersizes every meal, the guy who’s hardest job and career highlight to date was sales manager at a rent-to-own store, coming to your rescue? Because this is what you will get….
Seriously, if you whiners had your way, multi-million dollar state budgets would be designed, implemented and run by a bunch of low paid, no benefit, morans (such as yourselfs?). I mean you would not even get McDonalds employees to get excited about public sector employment. Because who wants to take all that s**T, work like slaves and be forced to live up to YOUR expectations… For less money and no benefits.
I wonder just how many of you whiny *#%! have ever risked your life for anothers safety?
WHS
The_Seer on February 08 at 11:04 a.m.
wormlike: You missed the most important of needed reforms of government: Publicly funded elections.
I’m tired of the constant campaign cycle and the staggering influence money has on policy decisions. All elections should be publicly funded and campaigning should be restricted to a three month period prior to elections.
WHS on February 08 at 11:09 a.m.
Actually woamike, it is you that have utterly and totally missed the point. Because it is exaclty what their service is worth that you are questioning. You are just too selfish and cheap to understand it.
And yes, it is an emotional thing. I have had two families over the years die in the line of duty as firemen. In fact, one of them was killed trying to save a business, and another died saving a life.
WHS
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 08 at 11:23 a.m.
Whats worse our fire chief making $170,000 a year or the CEO of Goldman Sachs making over $20 million a year with tax payer money? Whats worse a firefighter making $90,000 a year or the CEO of Exxon making $30 million a year with tax payer money? Whats worse a firefighter making $90,000 a year or a Wall Street investment banker making a couple million a year with tax payer money? Out of these jobs, which one is more essential and what one is just a tad more dangerous?
Again, I will show some outrage over Bobby Williams salary or any other firefighters salary or pension or benefits as soon as you conservative show some outrage over the salaries of giant corporations taking tax payer money making millions of dollars.
woamike on February 08 at 11:25 a.m.
WHS,
Thanks for disclosing you are too emotionally attached to the issue to discuss it rationally.
“I wonder just how many of you whiny *#%! have ever risked your life for anothers safety?”
Did it for 22 years. So, now in your eyes am I qualified to express my opinion?
woamike on February 08 at 11:30 a.m.
Lib,
Those blinders you have one are sure tight, aren’t they?
Why (only) get made at those CEOs?. You should be really P*ssed at the politicians that enabled all of that to happen.
So essentially, your defense of Spokane Firefighter salaries / benefits / work rules / legacy costs is that there are greater injustices in the world?? Is that how the mind of liberal operates?
Verbal on February 08 at 11:33 a.m.
Liberal - again, please stay on topic.
We aren’t commenting on a story about Wall Street/big corporation abuses, this is a story about the firefighter contract in Spokane. The two aren’t related in any way other than in your mind.
therailroader on February 08 at 11:37 a.m.
Anyone who is in a management position within the FTD (or any other govenrmental position) should not be paid overtime. Supposedly, it’s a salaried position and the overall compensation should take care of that income (welcome to the private sector). The FTD is paid well as saving lives is part of their duties. Since taxpayers ultimately support the services provided by the taxes paid by both individuals and businesses, we can have a say in how much people earn &a nd what their benefits are).
liberal_in_right_wing_land on February 08 at 11:39 a.m.
Actually verbal they are connected, you people are complaining about tax payer money going to firefighters and their salaries and I am comparing it to salaries of other companies that received tax payer money that republicans seem to et pass.
woamike, I am mad at ALL politicians who continue to allow this. I have called out democrats on this issue many times, but, I have yet to see republicans complain about where our tax payer money goes expect for when the issue is about unions and public service employees.
Verbal on February 08 at 11:48 a.m.
With a base pay of roughly $90K, and a benefit package (including pension) that raises it to $120K..
doesn’t that make firefighters part of Spokane’s 1%?
woamike on February 08 at 11:53 a.m.
Lib,
The problem is your blinders…and selective listening.
TEA-Party people and conservatives in general (both who you loathe) have been against crony capitalism and government fraud, waste and abuse their entire adult lives. It is only recently that most of them finally got sick enough of it to speak out. And NO, they didn’t just start getting p*ssed when BHO got elected… and no, it has nothing to do with a “black” man being prez or whatever straw man you believe in. They are against all establishment, status-quo politicians. They are especially against BHO because he and the administration he leads have taken cronyism, fraud, waste and abuse to levels heretofore unheard of in all human history.
Now, back to the firefighters: They just cost too damn much money. It’s really not that complicated.
WHS on February 08 at 12:04 p.m.
Woamike: “Did it for 22 years. So, now in your eyes am I qualified to express my opinion?”
Cool, thank you.
And of course I am sure you are no longer using the VA, right? And that during the course of your service, you covered your families medical expenses out of pocket, right? I am sure you never lived in base housing? I am sure you’re not receiving a government pension, right? I mean you would not to be a hypocrite now would you?
Of course, I am assuming you were in the military.
Also, why would having an emotional attachment negate me from the discussion? Does somehow truly knowing and understanding the ultimate sacrifice paid somehow disqualify me from the discussion?
I think opinions such as myself and others who have felt the sacrifice are very important. Especially in light of some of the very callous and thoughtless statements made.
I mean as a former military man, with 22 year’s experience, I would assume you saw some action and felt the pain of loss. Does that make your opinion more or less valuable when discussing war?
WHS
Verbal on February 08 at 12:06 p.m.
Woamike -
“They are especially against BHO because he and the administration he leads have taken cronyism, fraud, waste and abuse to levels heretofore unheard of in all human history.”
1. Obama has nothing on GWB in these respects, and neither of them has even touched levels that would be needed to make the “in all of human history” moniker.
2. Never wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it - Shaw
Let’s stay on topic, people.
westerly on February 08 at 12:09 p.m.
Simply put, with Spokane’s crappy business revenues that pay city employees for the last 4 years, in this great recession, is not sustainable anymore.City fire and police costs are around 70 percent of all taxes city of Spokane takes in. And it grows exponentially every year with these labored costs. Ten years from now, 80-90 percent of budget goes to cops and fireman? No wonder Spokane has to have bonds passed to get capital improvements done, roads, potholes by the thousands, etc. All the money is going to fire and police…Spokane is not like Seattle,Tacoma, Everett, Portland, Vancouver, etc. it is a dirt poor revenue town trying to pay big city wages to a class of people who demand more and more year after year. Spokane can’t afford them anymore. Solution? Raised property taxes, utility taxes, sale taxes to keep up with the unions demands. Good reading here:
http://inlandnw.wordpress.com/about/
WHS on February 08 at 12:15 p.m.
I remember getting into a discussion recently with gmorton. He told me that employees are only as valuable as the service they render. So if you are only getting paid $10 an hour, then that is what you are worth. It is therefore up to you to make yourself more valuable.
So, in essence, you are assigning a value to protect your families and property. X is what you would be willing to pay for that service. Well, the people that provide said service think otherwise and have negotiated a higher rate, and got it approved by the majority.
Ooops! Now the minority has become the majority. So what do you do. You negate what was agreed upon previously and want to renegotiate for much less. Nice… I wonder what type of “ism” that represents.
WHS
johnclarke on February 08 at 12:27 p.m.
WHS;
There is no comparision between serving in the military and being a civilian firefighter. None.
Also, I really wish we could leave the “burning family members” out of the argument and stick to the facts.
gotcha on February 08 at 12:27 p.m.
westerly… Renton, Tacoma, and other cities on the west side are feeling the crunch as bad as us in Spokane. Tacoma was going to lay off about forty two fire fighters, but the fire dept. gave up 1.6 million dollars in concessions next year to save the jobs, but they are going to get the raises the following year. Pretty stupid … Of course their Progressive Union bought city council approved the measure and kept the jobs…. Just kicked the can down the road again. The people of Tacoma are not expecially happy with the council. Than I read in this article that Tacoma is one of the Citys taken into consideration while bargaining… Gezzzzzz no doubt.
In 1980 if you worked for the goverment you were a public servant.
In 2012 if you worked for the goverment you are a public serpent. Thanks to the Public Sector Unions.
Smokie on February 08 at 1:52 p.m.
Well, I hate to throw a blanket on this, but you may want to think twice about the payscale the author states in this article.
Go to http://www.spokanecity.org/services/documents/
and go to the April 13th gazette.
On page 394, you will see that a starting firefighter’s pay is $36,616. And it tops out after 5 years at $75,714. I don’t know if the Spokesman-Review almost tripled the starting salary on purpose or if they only used the numbers that Nancy and the Nancy Boys gave them. Maybe this was including benefits, although the author should have said so if that was the case.
For those of you who are interested, here is a video of the agility test you must take if you score high enough on the written test, are an EMT, have graduated high school, etc.
http://www.spokanecity.org/services/citycable5/streamingmedia/
It’s under “Other Videos” and then “Fire Recruiting.” Heck, I might do this!
nslopeofw on February 08 at 2:00 p.m.
The only thing i have to say about this mess is that the outgoing mayor (who asked for the pay she declined while in office) signed these contracts (even though the new administration asked the old to allow them to do the negotiations) on her way out the door, in a hurt, huff. She had no business doing that, and all it looks like is she was trying to give the new administration a ball of poop to start their term.
The new mayor and his admin have every right to want to negotiate with the police and fire dept.
I have no problem with a union getting a good contract that has been negotiated in good faith, i just doubt this one was done in good faith.
LIRWL-
Dude, you are going to blow a vein if you don’t quit hating the republicans so much. Time for you to maybe get some Paxil or Celexa. You sound like you have some serious anxiety issues.
You progressive liberals are supposed to love everyone. Follow the mantra, peace not war. Love, equal for everyone including republicans. Especially for gay republicans. Isnt that what you are always asking for? The right to not be judged, and to get rid of the bigoted hate? Practice what you preach.
nslopeofw on February 08 at 2:09 p.m.
Bird dog-
Dont forget that it is the current popular agenda to dislike any CEO who did go to school, and was smart enough to get themselves a good job with lots of upward possibilities.
lvgpaul on February 08 at 2:26 p.m.
I am currently paying $512 a month out of my paycheck for my family’s health insurance, not including deductibles and co-pays…. These private sector unions with their cadillac benefits are destroying our economy and our nation.
WHS on February 08 at 2:40 p.m.
johnclarke on February 08 at 12:27 p.m.
WHS;
There is no comparision between serving in the military and being a civilian firefighter. None.
Also, I really wish we could leave the “burning family members” out of the argument and stick to the facts.
JC, I would disagree. There is some comparison, as both are public sector jobs, one is at the city level and the other at the federal level. One serves the community, the other serves the country. Both are high risk jobs that take a very dedicated and highly trained person to perform. Both spend lots of time prepping and training for the worst. Both are paid for by our taxes. Both perform a service to public and are willing to put their lives on the line to do so. Both have highly paid management. And, to cap it off, military bases have their own military fire departments that perform the exact same function as civilian firemen…
Here, even the military compares the two -
http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/total-compensation.html
Now, don’t get me wrong here. I realize that there are some very distinct differences between the two, and in no way am I attempting to discredit our fine military… But I am hoping you see my point.
And as far as I am concerned, burning family members is most definitely part of the argument. I mean you are trying to claim that a fireman is over-paid for the service they render. I disagree. That is the service they render, to prevent just that, especially as first responders.
When your house catches on fire in the middle of night, who do you want responding? Some fireman who no longer has the incentive of great benefits and great pay to put his life at risk to come and help you?
Now, does that mean that there are not areas that can be trimmed or managed better? Sure there are. Overtime for Chiefs is a great example. Perhaps staffing and volunteer fire fighters in some of the smaller less called on stations? Maybe look at shifts, as stated above? These all seem reasonable to me, and would not necessarily reduce the quality of service in emergency.
WHS
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 3:05 p.m.
First all the talk about the city needing to cut costs, save money etc. By cutting fire saleries is laughable. does anyone realize how many millions of dollars are wasted by our fire dept having to respond to non emergency calls? People calling 911 for a toothache, headache, because they “feel sad”, or they just want a ride, no joke. The number of residents fire crews know by first name due to these daily or weekly non emergency calls is amazing. You want to save the city money? You want the fire dept to be able to do more with less? Make illegal to abuse the 911 system. Now to clarify I’m not referring to a one time call if someone is unsure what to do in a medical situation. I am talking about residents who call daily ( not an exaggeration, DAILY) for completely non emergency sometimes not even medical reasons. Stop this and it would save more money than if every fire fighter on the payroll gave up their salery completely!!
Commish on February 08 at 3:11 p.m.
Pay for Spokane Firefighters may seem high but compared to the rest of the U.S. it’s low. Yes they get paid for sleeping, working out, going to the store. They are on call for the full 24 hours. There might be times when they have to work the full 24 hours…..not good. Pay them for their job and quit worrying what they do or don’t do for their money. It’s a dangerous job and I dare any of you to walk in their shoes for one shift and think they don’t deserve what they are paid. We too often forget those who ran into burning buildings while others were running out. Until you have a need for the firefighters you complain….after you use their services you’ll feel different. It’s too bad that it will take a tragedy for some to wake up. Pay the firefighters what was negotiated and all of you whiners keep whining until you need their services.
If you think I’m blowing smoke(excuse the pun) but I did the job for over 40 years and as a retiree it’s sad to see Spokane’s‘ Citizens complain when their firefighters are doing a great job and are being chastised for their pay and benefits.
WHS on February 08 at 3:19 p.m.
Good points commish and Bhnbhn…
Thanks!
WHs
woamike on February 08 at 3:21 p.m.
@WHS,
You left out a few “minor” differences between military personnel and Spokane firefighters:
When GIs sign on the doted line, they give up certain freedoms and liberties that you take for granted.
The military “owns” you. It tells you where you will live, what your career field will be, when and where you can go and even what you can/can’t do in your off duty time (in some cases).
The military can and does deploy you all over the world where hostiles are trying to kill you. You can expect to be away from your family more than you are with them. You will be forced to move your family every 2-4 years, up-rooting kids from their schools and friends and making it difficult for you spouse to find and keep work. Don’t like any of this stuff? - tough. You are stuck until your term of enlistment expires - unless you get “stop-lossed” and can’t even leave then.
There is no union to protect you and there are few, if any “work rules”. The work rules that do exist, can and do get changed at the drop of the hat. In short, your “contract” with the military is pretty much one-sided and can be abriged or abrogated at any time. Oh, and did I mention you get paid less and people try to kill you when you go to work?
Your assertion that both have “highly paid management”: You are ignorant - the overwhelming majority of management level people in the military make nothing what Spokane firefighter management does. And they certainly don’t get paid “overtime.”
Again, it is very clear your strong emotional ties to having family in the fire biz and the losses they/you have sustained have clouded you judgement. I’m sure in your mind the firefighters can’t be paid enough and they’re worth every nickel.
The reality is Spokane firefighters do provide a valuable service, but that service is being over-compensated and has become an undue burden to the tax payer. The cost trajectory of Spokane firefighters (and certain other city employee groups) is going to crush the city in the years to come unless they get a handle on it now.
voice_of_reason on February 08 at 3:27 p.m.
I bet if we removed the entire Fire(d) Department and replaced them with a volunteer force (like most of our rural communities) we could save the City of Spokane over $40 million dollars and receive far better services. How about making the move Mayor Condon?
gotcha on February 08 at 3:30 p.m.
woamike:
GI = Goverment Issue…. A piece of equipment that can be replaced.
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 3:37 p.m.
So voice of reason- do you realize what you are even saying? That you want a life and property saving service for free? You do realize that most if not all volunteer firefighters are doing so to gain experience to be hired on as professional fire fighters don’t you? What other public services should we make volunteer, police, post office, utilities, can you really not see the need for a fire service? Spokane began a professional paid fire dept after a fire swept through and destroyed most of downtown when volunteer services couldn’t respond in time, it that what you’d like to see for our city again?
WHS on February 08 at 4:10 p.m.
woamike,
Perhaps you missed it, but I did point out that there are some distinct differences… Exactly which you described, no argument there, you are absolutely right on the money. However, that still does not change the fact that there are similarities as well. The two major similarities being a willingness to put your life on the line for another person or for a greater purpose. And both require high level of training and preparedness.
Also, you failed to even look at the link I posted didn’t you. Otherwise you would not have made the statement regarding compensation. And besides, I know exactly what an Army Lt Colonel makes, and it is easily comparable to a Fire Chief, especially considering the much better military benefits.
But, either way, you still have failed to prove why Firemen deserve to have their pay cut in half. I have provided reason and justification, you have not and in fact your sole argument is based on the fact that you hate anything to do with Unions or Democrats. Since the contract is Union and it was a Democrat Mayor that negotiated it, you are against it. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
WHS
o_pleez on February 08 at 4:16 p.m.
Voice of reason “I bet if we removed the entire Fire(d) Department and replaced them with a volunteer force (like most of our rural communities) we could save the City of Spokane over $40 million dollars and receive far better services. How about making the move Mayor Condon?”
–––––––––––––––––––––
That’s a bet you’d lose. Badly.
Insurance rates would skyrocket, particularly on businesses. Many would relocate, resulting in lost tax revenie, that would probably come close to offsetting that $40M.
Brilliant.
Do some research, you’ll find there are ZERO cities in the US with a population similar to Spokane that have Volunteer FD’s.
We’ll wait.
lvgpaul on February 08 at 4:27 p.m.
Bhn, no one is arguing that firefighters are not needed nor worthy of competitive compensation. Where your argument falls short is the type and the amount of compensation. SFD (like most cities) = excellent pay, generous pension, substantial (and often abused) sick time and vacation policy, etc. You seem to think that because your job title is that of firefighter that you then become an elitist, due entitlements that the public can’t afford and who’s compensation they can only dream of. Your pensions and cadillac health insurance plans with zero out of pocket, covering every famliy member including 3rd cousins is what is laughable, and certainly no longer sustainable.
woamike on February 08 at 4:45 p.m.
City of Spokane employees with highest gross wages in 2010:
1. Dan Brown, fire battalion chief, $189,573 (including $49,977 in overtime)
2. Steve Sabo, fire battalion chief, $181,490 (including $51,868 in overtime)
3. Robert Green, fire battalion chief, $175,289 (including $41,449 in overtime)
4. Joel Fielder, fire battalion chief, $173,713 (including $38,688 in overtime)
5. Craig Cornelius, fire battalion chief, $173,138 (including $42,644 in overtime)
6. Anne Kirkpatrick, police chief, $172,796 (no overtime)
7. Bruce Moline, fire battalion chief, $171,754 (including $44,644 in overtime)
8. Bobby Williams, fire chief, $168,708 (no overtime)
9. Jim Nicks, assistant police chief, $162,372 (no overtime)
10. David Haworth, fire battalion chief, $160,651 (including $40,978 in overtime)
And worth every penny, right WHS? (and others)
Verbal on February 08 at 4:52 p.m.
“Pay them for their job and quit worrying what they do or don’t do for their money.” - Commish
That tells you everything you need to know about the firefighters position.
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 5:10 p.m.
Lvg Paul - a few places your wrong. I am not a fire fighter. Excellent pay- Spokane firefighter start out at $35 k a year. And get paid well below what other cities of the same size pay. Sick time, they can bank an average of 100hr a year so 4 days off (24 hours shifts remember?) vacation time,12 days a year yes- but they also owe 12 days of work a year called debit days . This is on top of their normal schedule. Until 2010 they didn’t get any kind of holiday pay either. Pensions can max out at 50% of pay depending on number of years over 20 years worked.Most retire before ever getting close to this. Health insurance- I’m not sure where you get zero out of pocket. A firefighter with a family (spouse and children only no coverage on cousins ) spend $300/400 a month on premiums. Then pays deductibles co pays rRxs and other out of pocket cost, lab work etc. what is laughable is you think that by asking to not have their pay cut our fire fighter want to much to save lives while risking their own as well their health. Even seen stats on cancer and fire fighters? It’s crazy
Commish on February 08 at 5:16 p.m.
Verbal…..It’s does tell me a lot. They are paid what they deserve and the City should stick by their Contract they had in place but the new administration feels they need to re-negotiate.Good luck with that…..
nw9999 on February 08 at 6:09 p.m.
We have heard the median income is roughly $47,000/yr in Spokane. This is equal to a pay of $23/hr for a 40hr/wk employee. This does not mean that the median income for those who work, those who earn a wage, those who spend money in Spokane, those who own a business in Spokane, nor those who pay taxes in the City of Spokane. This means it is the median income when every resident of Spokane is considered.
Firefighters work over 46 hr per week with no extra pay, over 320 hrs per year. If we assume the median income worker would get paid over time for these hours at a rate of $34.50/hr this would equal over $11,000/yr. So a median income firefighter would make $58,000/yr.
Firefighters start out at $36,000/yr. To get to the $80,000-90,000/yr you must have 35 or more years of experience. The average firefighter makes about $67,000/yr. I am sure the median firefighter would be closer to the $58,000
This wage is almost entirely put back into the economy, buying private sector goods and services and paying taxes.
Spokane firefighters changed the way their health insurance was structured in 2009 to save the city nearly $1 million dollars a year. They also made contractual concessions in the following years to save the city money, which increased the firefighters cost of medical insurance. So the proposed contract had 100% medical, but the dollar amount was lower than previously paid and equal to much of the rest of the city (including elected officials).
It has also been shown for fire and police department it is a financial gain to provide good health care. Unlike most jobs if one of these positions is gone, the position must be filled to provide the necessary level of service the public expects. This usually will result in overtime.
Is firefighting dangerous? Of course, every job has its pros and cons. There has been many quality, independent scientific studies on firefighters. Firefighters have one of the highest rates of job related cancers, suicide, divorce rates, sleep disorders, and orthopedic injuries.
Pensions- Firefighters pay for over half of their pension benefits. They also do not receive social security and some do not receive medicare. To make their pensions have the ability to be transferable to their spouses, they must take a greatly reduced pension. Is it better or worse than many 401k programs? No, just different.
Firefighters do not receive bonuses, stock options, or many other benefits that private sector employees work. Firefighters have no way to buy into, or purchase their own company. They will have no assets to sell or trade when they are done working. Every profession and job has different attributes that make each individual choose it. We are just an average worker in Spokane. We get paid like it, we get treated like it, and we are proud of it. We own the same houses, drive the same cars, and buy the same food. We support all workers rights. We also take taxpayer rights, very seriously. We understand who we serve, and who our bosses are.
??Riddler?? on February 08 at 7:34 p.m.
?? Why do the top supervisors get overtime - in other industries wouldn’t they be on straight salary ??
?? Firefighters don’t get Social Security? Are they exempt? Do they get something else in lieu of Social Security? If so, is it employER or employEE paid ??
?? Where, in the private sector, does the employer pick up the total cost of spousal and dependent health care ??
johnclarke on February 08 at 7:53 p.m.
WHS, sorry = I take exception to your comparision on the miiltary but I’m going bet you didn’t serve. Hard to understand unless you do, no offense. I knew some military firefighters - they hated it and all wanted to cross train. One of them called himself a professional janitor.
nw9999 on February 08 at 6:09 p.m.
Something about posting statistics, make sure they are right. The median HOUSEHOLD income for Spokane is 38k.
http://www.city-data.com/city/Spokane-Washington.html
Again, that is houshold income. I think if you broke that down to individuals you would posting a different statistic altogether. So, let me ask you some straight questions and see if I get straight answers.
Do you work 24 hours on and 72 off?
Do you have a 2nd job?
What is your annual income ?
Do your dependents get free health care?
What do you mean firefighters don’t get social security and medicare? Everyone gets those benefits when they reach age 62 and/or 65. Please explain.
Pensions- Firefighters pay for over half of their pension benefits.
Please explain.
“This wage is almost entirely put back into the economy, buying private sector goods and services and paying taxes.”
Um, duh. So is everybody’s wage.
johnclarke on February 08 at 7:58 p.m.
Eliminate duplicate EMS. Save millions.
spowaguy on February 08 at 8:35 p.m.
How soon we forget. In 2011 the SFD union body voted to defer their negotiated raise until the next year. This was done to save the city money and a few firefighter jobs. This give-back, from the firefighters to the city, cost each firefighter at least two thousand dollars. That’s real money. Now, those of you complaining about the greedy, fat cat firefighters, imagine taking out your check book and writing a check to your employer for $2500.00 to help them make ends meet. Most of you would sooner quit your job than give your boss $2500 so he can pay other bills or other employees. The vast majority of us did not get into this line of work for the money. We got into this line of work to help people. The vote last year to give up our raise shows that we are not here to just help our selves. Take it for what it is worth.
JBlim on February 08 at 8:37 p.m.
“The median HOUSEHOLD income for Spokane is 38k. ”
Why should people who work for a living in good jobs be compared to a standard that includes welfare recipients and college students?
spowaguy on February 08 at 8:52 p.m.
JBlim
That is a great point. What is the median household income for people that actualy work 40+ hours a week. Take out all of the people that are not skilled enough, driven enough, smart enough or just lucky enough to have a job and I bet the numbers go way up. Let’s do some rough math.Take a household making 80k and a household on the dole, you are already under 38K.
reservedparking on February 08 at 8:56 p.m.
Do you work 24 hours on and 72 off?
Some departments do. More often its 24/48.
Do you have a 2nd job?
Some do, some don’t. Many do volunteer work.
What is your annual income?
Varies. Depends on position & seniority. Broad range.
Do your dependents get free health care?
No.
What do you mean firefighters don’t get social security and medicare? Everyone gets those benefits when they reach age 62 and/or 65. Please explain.
In some departments, members don’t pay in to SS in lieu of their retirement system. Others pay the MC portion only.
Pensions- Firefighters pay for over half of their pension benefits.
Please explain.
Firefighters contribute to their retirement system through payroll deduction. The employer contributes as well. Not sure what the percentages are, but both sides pay in. Employee also has an option to invest in a 457 plan (401 in the private sector) or Roth IRAs
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 9:22 p.m.
John Clarke
1) Sfd works 24 on 72 hours off plus 12 “debit days” these are 12 days that must be worked in a calendar year in addition to their regular schedule, they are also 24 hour shifts
2) many but not all Sfd have two jobs, many are involved in the union or the credit union. Many video volunteer work as well, fill the boot, the Columbia tower climb in Seattle for leukemia and lymphoma society
3) like all industries income varies with years on and promotions, 1st year aprox 35 k average at 5-7 years 45-55k yearly
4) no free health care for dependents in sfd -rates are the same to higher than private company insurance plans (average Sfd family spends 300-400 a month in premiums , plus co pays, detectables, rx filling, lab fees etc.) in 2009 Sfd took huge cuts and changes to health care that saved the city millions
4) social security and Medicare - Sfd retirees DO NOT receive social security or Medicare benefits, they also do not receive any Medical benefits after retiring from any other source related to the fire dept
5) sfd pay into their own pension plans , they have options as to how much they want to pay each pay period etc. and its taken as a payroll deduction The employer matches a certain percentage
AnalyzeThat on February 08 at 9:25 p.m.
@spoaguy - Since the firefighters “deferred” their negotiated raise, they had not actually received it in their paychecks therefore no checks would need to written back to the City. However we all know they will get it back somehow, some way.
I have no sympathy for them - my company (private sector) stopped all pay increases in 2009 and 2010, which cost me approximately $4000 in lost wages and affects all pay increase calculations going forward, money that our company is not going to reimburse to us now that they are doing better.
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 9:26 p.m.
John clarke- specifically what do you mean by “duplicate ems” ?
Commish on February 08 at 9:38 p.m.
johnclark……How’s the weather in your world. Not everyone gets Social Security when they turn 63. You have to earn it and put money into the system (SSN). I retired after 26 years on one department and never paid into Social Security. I had to work after I retired to earn enough credits to get my benefits. So your statement doesn’t hold water …..
spowaguy on February 08 at 9:50 p.m.
@analyze that
You may have missed the point. I am not trying to get sympathy. I am demonstrating that the rank and file of the fire service are willing sacrifice in order to benefit the greater good. The difference between your boss stiffing you for your raise and the SFD deferring their raise is that the SFD had a contact. The money we gave back to the city is money the city was contractually obligated to pay us. We chose to give it back. I am sure if you were given the choice to retain your 2009 2010 raise, you would have elected to do so. Unless you told your boss “No thanks, I don’t want that $4000.“ you don’t have a valid point. Be honest with your self.
johnclarke on February 08 at 10:03 p.m.
Well well well, look at what the cat dragged in.
Looks like a few firefighters have joined the SR in the last few posts.
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 9:22 p.m.
4) no free health care for dependents in sfd
Apparently, you have missed recent events. Please note the latest contract.
4) social security and Medicare - Sfd retirees DO NOT receive social security or Medicare benefits, they also do not receive any Medical benefits after retiring from any other source related to the fire dept
Please explain to the reading public what exactly that means ! Perhaps do you get superior health care benefits and retirement benefits instead of these programs? Are you permitted to defer your social security contribution into your pension program ?
1) Sfd works 24 on 72 hours off plus 12 “debit days” these are 12 days that must be worked in a calendar year in addition to their regular schedule, they are also 24 hour shifts
Ok, don’t make me add this up. 1 in every 4 days; 30/4 =7.5 days per month. Add in the 12 days. You work 102x24 hours per year. Oh, I see, that is like 2448 hours per year right? Let’s just subtract all the hours you do nothing. Hum, that is hard to figure out, since you fight less than 70 structure hours per year. Well, not you - the entire fire department.
johnclarke on February 08 at 10:04 p.m.
Commish on February 08 at 9:38 p.m.
johnclark……How’s the weather in your world. Not everyone gets Social Security when they turn 63. You have to earn it and put money into the system (SSN). I retired after 26 years on one department and never paid into Social Security. I had to work after I retired to earn enough credits to get my benefits. So your statement doesn’t hold water …..
Were you defering your SSI payments into another retirement program? Wait for it…
johnclarke on February 08 at 10:11 p.m.
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 9:26 p.m.
John clarke- specifically what do you mean by “duplicate ems” ?
Un, hello. The entire firefighter EMS program is a complete sham. We don’t need it, the contractor paramedic service is perfectly adequate and they perform transport. The concept of sending an entire fire unit out to a standard ambulance call is simply absurd. We all know that it is intended to pass levys and wear out the fire engines. Otherwise everyone would figure out that there are literally no fires and no need to dump such a huge portion of our taxes into your country club.
johnclarke on February 08 at 10:20 p.m.
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 9:22 p.m.
John Clarke
2) many but not all Sfd have two jobs, many are involved in the union or the credit union. Many video volunteer work as well, fill the boot, the Columbia tower climb in Seattle for leukemia and lymphoma society one
Best one yet. So what ? We all perform some form of community service. If I only worked every 4th day I’d have plenty of time for charity work. Besides you don’t get points for spending your off time working for your UNION or your credit union. So sorry.
outsidethebox on February 08 at 10:41 p.m.
Clark-ambulance could never handle all the ems calls in the city. also 2 people might be ok on some calls,but not on most. plus they don’t have enough ambulances to meet the response times needed. You obviously dont understand the system. That would give the Firefighters a lot more so called down time? how does that save millions?? The system could be adjusted sure. Iove how you think we do nothing all day, must be nice to live in your world. come visit us for a day or ride along to see what we really do in between our fires. We are always prepared for the what if.
Which “jobs” in the “private sector” is it that Firefighting is being compared to specifically, that you are saying we are making too much money? Everybody is comparing apples and Oranges here.
Some of us worked hard to get where we are at, while others sit around and feed off society contribute nothing, and complain how they got it bad. We all have choices in life, what direction to take in their life, education, and which careers to pursue.
outsidethebox on February 08 at 10:47 p.m.
clark- What is it you do for a living? How much do you make? what are your hours and benefits? Not sure why second jobs are relevant? Most people I know work second jobs because they have a hard work ethic and drive to be successful and enjoy it or they don’t make enough, and want to allow a spouse to stay home and raise kids.
woamike on February 08 at 10:55 p.m.
City of Spokane employees with highest gross wages in 2010:
1. Dan Brown, fire battalion chief, $189,573 (including $49,977 in overtime)
2. Steve Sabo, fire battalion chief, $181,490 (including $51,868 in overtime)
3. Robert Green, fire battalion chief, $175,289 (including $41,449 in overtime)
4. Joel Fielder, fire battalion chief, $173,713 (including $38,688 in overtime)
5. Craig Cornelius, fire battalion chief, $173,138 (including $42,644 in overtime)
6. Anne Kirkpatrick, police chief, $172,796 (no overtime)
7. Bruce Moline, fire battalion chief, $171,754 (including $44,644 in overtime)
8. Bobby Williams, fire chief, $168,708 (no overtime)
9. Jim Nicks, assistant police chief, $162,372 (no overtime)
10. David Haworth, fire battalion chief, $160,651 (including $40,978 in overtime)
Now tell us again why the tax-payers of Spokane need to pay this level of wages to firefighters… These guys made more than 4-star generals or 747 Captains. Sheesh.
AnalyzeThat on February 08 at 11:05 p.m.
@spoaguy - my point is times were (are) tough for everyone and the firefighters, even though they had a contract, need to suck it up just like the rest of us, and be grateful they have jobs.
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 11:13 p.m.
Direct questions were asked I gave as direct/ fact based answers as I could, you getting so heated about those answers really makes me wonder what your true motive is. Do you think we don’t need a fire service? Do you think a fire fighter should be payed less than an entry level job to not only save lives but on a day to day basis see horrific things? Our fire fighters save lives, property , and even pets. They deal with drunk bums downtown and every headache to toothache that someone calls 911 for. They deal with child abuse in a way no one else has to experience. Trying to treat a dead child in their room with the sibling crying in the next room or finding a baby in a garbage can. Then add in the domestic abuse situations, stabbings and shootings, the river recues and suicides and think what would it take for you to deal with that on a constant basis? Or how about health issues? The correlation being fire fighters and cancer are staggering even with present day precautions. Add I PTSD (all those happy calls I already mentioned) and major orthopedic issues from years of wear and tear on the body . What do you have against these people who are providing such a valuable service to us? I love some of your comments too, only working every 4th day, you have no clue what it takes for them to recover after a busy shift a day for them is 24 hrs, I’m doubting you’d be able to work 24 hours straight. Not to mention the things they miss out on with kids and family by working this shift. It’s pretty common for them to work 48-72 hours straight as well, without seeing their family. All those hours of doing nothing? These guys have training constantly, they also go way more than fire calls, go on to the dept website. There is a running list of cals as they come in, and it is never empty. Oh and as for SSI, NO this does not get deferred.
greenlibertarian on February 08 at 11:13 p.m.
The military “owns” you. It tells you where you will live, what your career field will be, when and where you can go and even what you can/can’t do in your off duty time (in some cases).
The military can and does deploy you all over the world where hostiles are trying to kill you.
If you’re an uneducated grunt, true.
If you’re an elite in the military, not true.
My sister, a light Colonel up for Full Bird went into the Army as a 2nd Lt. with a BS. Earned a Masters there. Worked her way up. Medical Corp. Her decisions and actions saved peoples’ lives.
Only a small cadre these days (past 10-15 years) are ground pounders. Four/fifths serve stateside/non-combat area/rear echelon.
The grunts have significant needs to be satisfied and are deserved of much.
But it’s NOT the typical military experience. Which is not standing a post against the commies. If you don’t know this, you’re ignorant. Don’t be. The Few (Good Men). The Proud. Or those that Can’t Handle The Truth.
Full. Metal. Jacket.
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 11:19 p.m.
Johnclarke- the latest contract would not cover detectables, co pays, out of pocket limits, rx filling etc. it would only cover premiums and would being to reverse the huge change the Sfd made in 2009 for health care benefits that save the city millions, then in 2010 and 2011 concessions were made and cost of living changes were deferred again to save to city money. Now they are not asking for any raises again, so what exact do you have a problem with?
greenlibertarian on February 08 at 11:58 p.m.
johnclarke on February 08 at 10:03 p.m.
Well well well, look at what the cat dragged in.
Looks like a few firefighters have joined the SR in the last few posts.
Yeah. I know man, right?
I am neutral on (most) public union issues. There are grievous injustices (upon earnest public employees), and massively profitable union contracts that have abused for profit certain public employee/good government criteria.)
johnclarke on February 09 at 6:56 a.m.
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 11:19 p.m.
Johnclarke- the latest contract would not cover detectables, co pays, out of pocket limits, rx filling etc
Um, excuse me - EVERYONE pays those things. The point is, us “regular” folk has to pay for dependent health care. Now we the tax payers are paying for your dependents. Seem fair to you?
outsidethebox on February 08 at 10:41 p.m.
Clark-ambulance could never handle all the ems calls in the city. also 2 people might be ok on some calls,but not on most. plus they don’t have enough ambulances to meet the response times needed. You obviously dont understand the system. That would give the Firefighters a lot more so called down time? how does that save millions?? The system could be adjusted sure. Iove how you think we do nothing all day, must be nice to live in your world. come visit us for a day or ride along to see what we really do in between our fires. We are always prepared for the what if.
You are right, I don’t understand the “system”. I don’t undertstand the need for duplicate EMS. If you were to eliminate this DUPLICATE service, it would save millions - as in the millions in levys that we get nailed with, the costs associated with equipment wear etc.
I have ridden ambulance, thanks when I got my EMT rating. The guys really busting ass for less pay are in the ambulance.
Bhnbhn on February 08 at 11:13 p.m.
Direct questions were asked I gave as direct/ fact based answers as I could, you getting so heated about those answers really makes me wonder what your true motive is
My motive is actually to help you guys. As I’ve said before the public unions have brought this on themselves. The firefighter EMS sham need to end. We simply can’t afford it.
You can save all of the emotional “sacrifices” you are making, and I am sooooo tired of the “dead child” nonsense. You asked for it when you got into the EMS business. Ambulance teams see way more of this work. Plently of your tax paying public have served for way less money, and yeah I think I have a handle on working for days on end keeping people alive. So no offense, if your job was so full of stress and strain for such paltry wages you think no one would ever sign up.
johnclarke on February 09 at 7:00 a.m.
woamike on February 08 at 10:55 p.m.
City of Spokane employees with highest gross wages in 2010:
1. Dan Brown, fire battalion chief, $189,573 (including $49,977 in overtime)
Thanks for posting these stats. Yes, these people collect OVERTIME.
johnclarke on February 09 at 7:03 a.m.
outsidethebox on February 08 at 10:47 p.m.
clark- What is it you do for a living? How much do you make? what are your hours and benefits? Not sure why second jobs are relevant? Most people I know work second jobs because they have a hard work ethic and drive to be successful and enjoy it or they don’t make enough, and want to allow a spouse to stay home and raise kids.
I pay the taxes that pay your salary, that is what I do. I also pay for the levys.
How much I make would fall under the category of none of your business, because I don’t serve the public. Thanks for the second job speech. If I didn’t know some of you guys personally I might buy that line.
Bhnbhn on February 09 at 7:44 a.m.
Hey Clarke- you are mistaken if you think I’m a fire fighter I have stated twice now that I am not but I support them. And again the new contract does not pay for dependent healthcare it only covers the premiums which is a small cost of the health care, again the healthcare plan offered to firefighters. As far as the dead child nonsense , how is that nonsense do you have ANY idea how often things of that nature occur in Spokane? Ambulance (amr) in Spokane to not see more of any type of work. Our firefighter are there first, do everything and amr drives. If you want to cut ems, why are you wanted to cut the guys that are trained for far many more types of calls, are all emts and some are paramedics? Makes no since to say you want less experienced, less trained crews responding to you in an emergency. And no one is wanted more money, they understand where Spokane is right now, that’s why there are giving up even basic cost of living increases, so again you haven’t said what exactly is wrong with this contract, you just seem to not like fire fighters
Commish on February 09 at 7:52 a.m.
Johnclark….I do get Social Security along with my pension. However because I get a PERS retirement the government takes away….let me say this again….AWAY 2/3s of it so get a whopping $125.00 a month. So for 40 years of fire service I get 50% of my pay…..40 years. How’s your retirement??? I also have to pay $1,200 a month for health care out of my pocket. So when you think when a firefighter retires it’s on the City of Spokane’s dime……wake up and smell the coffee.
Just give them what they bargained for with the City.
It_pays_to_lie on February 09 at 7:55 a.m.
Take a moment and look up just how dangerous firefighting really is. In the most dangerous jobs in America firefighting hardly makes the list.
Per 2009 Bureau of labor statistics;
Commercial fishermen are # 1
Loggers are #2
Farmers and ranchers are #3 and 40x more dangerous than firefighters
Police Officers, who didn’t even make the top 10 list have a job that is FOUR times more dangerous than firefighters!
Refuse workers have a more dangerous job
Construction workers have a more dangerous job
With the exception of police officers none of these career fields
have binding arbitration and yet they have no shortage of willing workers.
The image that firefighting is dangerous is based on urban myth. Firemen aren’t brave just greedy. Why dont you Spokane firemens tell the truth about the dangers of watching tv all day.
I would challenge the local media to expose this fraud for what a waste of money our fire department is. The list of the highest paid city employees should be posted on every levy ballot in the City of Spokane.
I’m Alan retired with a fixed income.
WHS on February 09 at 8:19 a.m.
JC and woamike,
So essentially what you are telling me, is that because I did not serve in the Military, I really don’t know what I am talking about. In other words, my opinion was uninformed and flawed.
No problem, I can buy that. I will concede my point. I was wrong and you were right.
Also, note once again there was no intention to demean our fine military, as I am from a military family.
Now I have one question for you all; Have either of you been a fireman?
That’s what I thought…
Of course, I am sure you are going to gone on and tell us how, in spite of the information provided by actual firemen, your uninformed and flawed opinion is different. And why, when an agreement was entered into by the then duly elected Mayor and Council, should be nullified.
Yeah, right…
WHS
p.s. - woamike, I have to tell you your comparative salaries are still way off… But, I understand how you think, so I can see how you skew numbers to try and make a point.
Commish on February 09 at 9:12 a.m.
To it_pays_ to_ lie….Really. Your going to say that Firefighting is NOT a dangerous job?????
You need to visit johnclark in his world. There’s a reason everyone is running out of burning building while the Firefighters are running in. Take one look at the pictures of 9-11 in case you forgot. Those who were trying to leave the building were headed down…..the Firefighters were headed up. If you think it’s not a dangerous job stick your head in an oven on day and find out the 350 you have it on is only 25% of what the heat is really like inside a burning building.
The Spokane Firefighters deserve what was negotiated in good faith by The City of Spokane but because there’s a new Mayor and some Council memebers they want a redo on a new contract …..REALLY!!??
johnclarke on February 09 at 9:19 a.m.
WHS on February 09 at 8:19 a.m.
Now I have one question for you all; Have either of you been a fireman?
Yup, but we didn’t get fancy firetrucks - just a Pulaski. And, oh yeah I didn’t get paid.
WHS on February 09 at 8:19 a.m.
JC and woamike,
So essentially what you are telling me, is that because I did not serve in the Military, I really don’t know what I am talking about
Yup.
Bhnbhn on February 09 at 7:44 a.m.
Ambulance (amr) in Spokane to not see more of any type of work. Our firefighter are there first, do everything and amr drives. If you want to cut ems, why are you wanted to cut the guys that are trained for far many more types of calls, are all emts and some are paramedics?
Sorry, this is nonsense. The AMR crews are trained just as well if not better. Go around to the ER’s and ask the folks who they prefer dealing with. Also, the only reason firefighter EMS gets anywhere “first” is they control dispatch. If you go read the study on the SFD website you will see AMR has a history of actually responding faster. That is, when they are not called off.
Commish on February 09 at 7:52 a.m.
Johnclark….I do get Social Security along with my pension. However because I get a PERS retirement
You can stop right there. Your retirement and benefits THAT YOU CHOSE are far superior to the public, so argument over.
johnclarke on February 09 at 9:21 a.m.
Commish on February 09 at 9:12 a.m.
To it_pays_ to_ lie….Really. Your going to say that Firefighting is NOT a dangerous job?????
You need to visit johnclark in his world
I never said your job was not dangerous. Plenty of us have done jobs that are way more dangerous, but then again I’m not on here asking for money. I have nothing to justify, Commish.
Bhnbhn on February 09 at 9:48 a.m.
Clark- I do work I the ER so I can tell you I and most coworkers prefer dealing with our fire crews thanks, also how do they control dispatch?? Dispatch controls them!! They get tones and go wherever dispatch tells them, no matter how silly of a call it may be. If you want to save money force people to stop abusing our 911 system. Calling 911 for a headache or because they don’t have a ride to their dr appt. costs everyone millions. If our fire fighters only had to deal with actual emergencies or serious situations, less staffing and resources would be needed and would save wear and tear on trucks not to mention it would cut fuel needs in HUGE ways. This sacings would add up to much more than the entire dept. payroll every year.
It_pays_to_lie on February 09 at 10:12 a.m.
Commish
Firefighters don’t have as dangerous of a job as compared to other job trades. Now thats a fact that u cant dispute. Just look it up or are you happier with your imagination.
I never said its as dangerous as our military folks. I think our armed forces work harder at protecting the country than greedy firemen. Are the city top ten paid for risking their necks? I cant find a reason why job pay is related to job danger in Spokane
Verner approved this deal at the same time she had her hand out for more pay. I say start all over again and bargain for the taxpayers.
Commish or anyone please post a list of the most dangerous jobs and what they get paid. Name your source or show us a link. As a famous man once said trust but verify.
It_pays_to_lie on February 09 at 10:18 a.m.
I have the most respect for volunteer firefighters who help without getting paid for it. At least there not taking advantage of the taxpayer.
johnclarke on February 09 at 10:19 a.m.
Bhnbhn on February 09 at 9:48 a.m.
Clark- I do work I the ER so I can tell you I and most coworkers prefer dealing with our fire crews thanks
Ok, that’s your opinion even if I don’t believe you work in the ER.
Um, the firefighters have the ability to call off the Ambulance crews. Not every medical call requires transport. Just ask the firefighters if you don’t believe me.
If you want to save money force people to stop abusing our 911 system. Calling 911 for a headache or because they don’t have a ride to their dr appt. costs everyone millions.
This is not the topic.
It_pays_to_lie on February 09 at 11:02 a.m.
Just do a search about dangerous jobs and how they compare.
why aren’t u guys all over this or does the truth hurt ur position.
I thought so if you cant put up facts then u just have to shut up.
Since u took your ball and went home this topic is closed.
greenlibertarian on February 09 at 11:37 a.m.
The folks supporting the fire-fighters are not doing them any favors.
arty on February 09 at 1:40 p.m.
John clark… it pays to lie… i have read all of your posts and you two have to be some of the most ignorant people i have had the pleasure of listening to.
Your assumptions are simply not true. There have been several post on here stating the facts about firefighters wages and benefits. You are obviously too bull headed to hear the facts that directly contradict what your false assumptions are. Lets see if you and all the other posters on here like you get your way. Lets see how long it takes the all volunteer fire/EMS service takes to get to you or you loved ones when they are in cardiac arrest. Or if cutbacks to the SFD force the closure of one or more fire stations. I wonder what neighborhood you live in. I bet you will be the first one to bash the SFD for taking too long to respond to your house when your neighborhood fire station closes down.
To whomever collected the facts for this article shame on you.
“Firefighters currently make up to $87,200 a year in base pay at their lowest rank and up to $91,900 a year as fire equipment operators. Those figures do not include overtime pay.”
Ok I’m sure there are members on the SFD making this much but this statement is grossly inflating the facts and making the SFD look like they are making more than they really do. The members making this much either have a lot of time on the job or have promoted to a higher paying position. Good for them. It was stated in an earlier post so I shouldn’t delve too much… but starting firefighter wage is 36,000 or so a year.
To everyone… The SFD is a highly trained force of men and women who deserve every penny they get. Yes they do work 24 on 72 off. don’t forget the debit days. Each debit day worked means turning the normal 24 hour shift into a 48 hour shift. Away from family members the whole time. Id like to see just how much you whiners would whine if you had to do that. Getting up at all hours of the night, training, maybe you get to eat lunch maybe you don’t. Running upwards of 15-20 calls a day at some stations. Who cares what they do on their time off? Its really not anyones business if they have a second job or not. They have a schedule that gives them that opportunity and they can do what they will with it. Oh and I hate all the statistical garbage you guys are throwing out about how firefighting isn’t dangerous. The stats say its not dangerous because the fire service has been doing a better job at increasing firefighter safety and risk management. Risk a lot to save a lot. Risk a little to save a little. Contrary to what many of you believe, this is a good thing.
Lastly, you people need to get some facts straight before you bash the SFD using your false presumptions. And it sends chills up my spine that some of you are saying that firefighters aren’t brave, they are greedy. tell that to the 343+ who died trying to save the World Trade Center. Believe it or not the SFD would do the same thing for you whether your one of the whiners on here or not.
Commish on February 09 at 1:48 p.m.
Well said…Arty…well said and thank you.
Commish on February 09 at 2:04 p.m.
To: It_pays_to_lie…..
The average death of a firefighter is 7 in 100,000. There are over 1,000,000 firfighters in the U.S. with 375,000 being full time paid firefighters. Numbers are numbers and you can twist them to make them say what you want. That is the ratio of killed to the number of active firefighters in the U.S. Overall firefighter are #13 which is high in my book.
www.dailybeast.com has firefighter #2…msnbc has them at #13.
Remember there are over 1,000,000 firefighters Paid and Volunteer with a ratio of 7 deaths per 100,000.
Enought facts for you????
gotcha on February 09 at 2:53 p.m.
I would like my hero’s to make a lot less than they do now.
Commish on February 09 at 3:02 p.m.
gotcha……Because??????
justmy2 on February 09 at 3:05 p.m.
Before you abolish the EMS system, there are a few things to consider. First, a large majority of the EMS calls that SFD and AMR respond to are for people on PUBLIC health care - Medicaid, Medicare, etc., so we are already paying for their health care. Do you really want to pay a private, for-profit ambulance company to provide that service? A lot of the calls that SFD responds to do not require ambulance transport, so why would you want to have a private, for-profit ambulance company provide a service that your taxes are already paying for? How would that cut costs?
And for the record. firefighters in Washington do not contribute to SS, and so do not receive SS benefits unless they have earned them through some other employment, and then they receive those benefits at a greatly reduced rate because they are already receiving benefits from an alternate pension system.
gotcha on February 09 at 3:14 p.m.
commish… I believe the fire fighters are over paid period… I do not like paying people for sleeping, eating, playing cards etc. I believe their shift time should be increased with NO overtime.
When jobs open up at the fire departments people are all over them…. There is a reason for that. They are overpaid for the services they render.
You can disagree if you like but I will not be changing my mind.
justmy2 on February 09 at 3:27 p.m.
gotcha - firefighters only get OT for a few reasons - either they are covering an extra shift because someone is sick or injured, or they are called in because of a major incident requiring more crews than are on duty, and in this case thay do not have the option to decline. If your boss called you tonight and said you need to work an extra 24 hours next week but you wouldn’t get paid anything extra, what would you say?
PS - all the SFD salaries posted earlier are for chiefs, who are not even part of the proposed L29 contract - they work under their own contract.
gotcha on February 09 at 3:31 p.m.
Still overpaid….Nothing you can say will change my mind. Fire fighters have got it made. Who else gets to retire at 50 and work 10 days a month…… Please tell me….. No one in my world.
gotcha on February 09 at 3:32 p.m.
I can no longer afford my hero’s.
It_pays_to_lie on February 09 at 3:33 p.m.
Back to the original topic about negotiating the police & firemen contract;
The public perception led the lawmakers to think our public safety need special rights because of the dangerous nature of there work. The facts speak otherwise CNBC doesn’t even list police or fire in the top 12
http://www.cnbc.com/id/44344096/Most_Dangerous_Jobs_2011
Of the top 15 most dangerous http://www.businessinsider.com/most-dangerous-jobs-2011-9
Police and fire still not listed.
Forbes finds http://www.forbes.com/2011/03/08/fishing-construction-logging-business-most-dangerous-jobs.html
I didnt cherry pick to make my case. Paid city workers shouldnt demand higher wages because of out of date information. Paid public servants like fire and police trail behind refuse workers.
At least the refuse workers dont have sex on duty.
justmy2 on February 09 at 3:47 p.m.
The real reason that binding arbitration was enacted was so that public safety workers would not have the ability to strike and put the public in jeapordy. It never was about the perceived danger of the job. The arbitration laws can work in the employer’s favor too - if the city wanted to demand a new work rule that the union opposed, the city could force binding arbitration as a way to get what they want. Remember, it is binding on both sides.
Your statistics are interesting, but if you really are interested in facts, do some research into the long term health hazards of firefighting. I hope your chances of enjoying a long healthy retirement are better that of firefighters.
fired_up on February 09 at 4:03 p.m.
I have to respond to Gotcha: Who else gets to retire at 50 and work 10 days a month…… Please tell me….. No one in my world
By working approximately 10 days a month firefighters are actually working about 240 hours a month or approximately 2880 hours per year, the average person who works a 40 hour per week job is only working 160 hours a month or 2080, looks like the firefighters put in a little more time at the “office” than most folks. While at work they can be called out at any time for any reason, and they always respond whether it’s 2am or 2pm. Working as a firefighter is hard work, it can be physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausting. IF a person who works a demanding job like the fire service is able to retire at 50, why should you care? Sounds to me like you wish you were a firefighter.
I agree times are tough right now, however the firefighters negotiated their contract in good faith and were not asking for something unreasonable. They have even deferred pay increases to help the city out in the past.
I for one am glad that there are men and women who are willing to work long shifts (away from family) and who will show up any time of the day or night if there is an emergency. They work hard and in my opinion deserve to be treated with a little more respect than is shown on this page. Their bargaining with the city is public knowledge and everyone seems to think they know exactly how much fire fighters make, but when it’s time for your annual review and possible salary increase it’s not put up on some website for people to be critical of you and bad mouth the services you provide. How would you feel Gotcha (and anyone else) if we all got to debate about what crappy services you provided and how you were paid too much already?
justmy2 on February 09 at 4:16 p.m.
It must pay to lie. From your own link (CNBC.COM article), the only 2 professions that had a higher number of on the job deaths last year are drivers (683) and farmers (300). There were 81 on duty FF deaths last year, and that is only part of the story. FFs take a lot of the hazards that they face home with them - in their lungs, as cancer, heart disease, etc., but they are only counted in the statistics if they are on duty when they die.
WHS on February 09 at 4:18 p.m.
Johnclarke on February 09 at 9:19
• Now I have one question for you all; Have either of you been a fireman?
Yup, but we didn’t get fancy firetrucks - just a Pulaski. And, oh yeah I didn’t get paid.
Uh, putting out your campfire after a family weekend does not count JC! It’s the right thing to do and I am glad to see you are being safe, but as you say, this is not the topic.
Commish, I for one think you are right on the money. Thank you commish, arty, Bhnbhn and the rest who really know what’s going on.
In the end, I hope the FD gets exactly what they deserve. They are hardworking dedicated professionals and I for one support them completely.
Now I am done on this subject and will check this thread no more.
WHS
gotcha on February 09 at 4:20 p.m.
fired up….Poor argument as far as I am concerned… Your living in ferry tale land.. I will ask the question again. Why do you suppose whenever there is a job opening for the fire departments they have huge response from the public. They are overpaid for the services rendered.
When fire department are negotiating in good faith, “as you put it,” you are negotiating with the people your Union dues have purchased and put in office. Nice cozy arangement, and do’nt try to deny it. Who gets the bill for all the negotiations??? The tax payers.
justmy2 on February 09 at 4:26 p.m.
You are right in one thing. The taxpayers have paid for 9 months of negotiations (the city staff, not the FFs), and all that work has been negated by a few politicians that want to make a name for themselves.
gotcha on February 09 at 4:48 p.m.
It is my opinion that FF’s decided to negoiate with Verner knowing they would probably not get a better deal after the elections. Being Verner was already bought and paid for it was the best time to negotiate.
fired_up on February 09 at 4:48 p.m.
Gotcha - one would assume you have tested for the fire department and are severely disappointed in the end result. You are correct, there is usually a large response to all civil service jobs, and a large amount of retired military personnel make up those testing. First responders have to be ready for anything when they show up at any time of the day. I don’t think they are paid enough. Although there are several professions which I think are severely underpaid for their services.
Personally I am shocked at the number of people on here who think that our first responders deserve less and have too much. They are willing to sacrifice their life for you if needed. Show a little respect.
gotcha on February 09 at 5:13 p.m.
fired up..
Simple solution as far as I am concerned. Shifts should be 48 on 48 off no overtime. Salary position.
I bet there would still be applicants lined up around the block to get in.
I will show some respect when I feel I am not being Gouged….. Maybe the FF should start showing a little respect to the people who are paying their salary’s, “the taxpayers.”
Paying dues to sway politicans to put me the tax payer in an unfare bargaining position is BS.
End collective bargaining.
Thats how you will get my respect.
justmy2 on February 09 at 5:16 p.m.
With the many labor groups involved in the city, negotiators can not sit around and wait to see who is going to win an election. They have a job to do, and they work for the city, not for the current elected official. They owe it to the public to do their job in a timely manner, and that is what it appears they did in this case. The change in makeup of the city council has negated 9 months of work that we have all paid for - now they have to start over.
justmy2 on February 09 at 5:19 p.m.
So you think FFs should work 84+ hours per week (48 on 48 off)? That kind of thinking is EXACTLY why there is collective bargaining!
Bhnbhn on February 09 at 9:51 p.m.
Thank you to all who support our SFD and understand what these guys and gals really go through. It is an amazing service you provide!!! I can only hope all those opposed to the new contract can live In other cities of our same size to truly understand what an amazing service we receive here in Spokane. Thank you SFD for all you do and the sacrifices you make to your family and yourselves for us. For those of you who oppose our fire crews I hope we adopt the practices of so many other cities who demand a fee (much like for gas, water and other ulities) that require a fee paid directly to the fire department befor services are rendered. what happens in theses cities and counties? Well if you haven’t paid and your house catches on fire after human lives are accounted for, your property burns to the ground. For the entry level compensation many here are calling for this seems more than fair.
gotcha on February 10 at 4:33 a.m.
justmy… Thats right buddy…Probably right at 84 hours a week. Look at all the people we could get rid of. Please, be careful when you use that statement of WORK as losely as you do. You are certainly not working for 48 hours…..
You can go back to sleep now.
JBlim on February 10 at 5:53 a.m.
I get the feeling some people here should have worked hard, gone to college or learned a useful trade so they don’t have to whine about everybody making more than they do.
gotcha on February 10 at 6:05 a.m.
Public Sector Unions have made Civil Servants into Civil Serpants.
JBlim on February 10 at 6:36 a.m.
Not really, gotcha, studies show public sector workers make less than their private counterparts when you account for the education and skill level of the job:
http://epi.3cdn.net/8808ae41b085032c0b_8um6bh5ty.pdf
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/wage-penalty-state-local-gov-employees
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/wage-penalty-2010-05.pdf
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/us/26salaries.html?_r=2&hp
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011277862_statewages07m.html
gotcha on February 10 at 7:17 a.m.
BS and Double BS.
JBlim on February 10 at 7:23 a.m.
We can listen to people who study it or an Internet clown.
Commish on February 10 at 7:54 a.m.
Gotcha…..Until you’ve thrown on a BA and entered a burning building I think you need to sit back and just read….maybe you’ll get better info by reading than saying something you have no clue about…..There was an agreed Contract on the table and “The Newly Elected” want to wade in when they don’t have a clue. I’ve been on both sides of the bargaining table and when you negotiate and agree you should stick by the agreement…period. It was a fair deal and if it goes to arbitration the Mayor is rolling the dice …..
JBlim..and fired up….thank you
gotcha on February 10 at 8:31 a.m.
You are correct in saying there was an agreement… It was pushed thru just before our Progressive Democratic mayor Verner left office… Public Sector Unions tend to give lots of campaign money to the Progressive Democrats because it makes them much friendlier to bargain with. Than all that is left as usual is to send the tax payer the bill.
Public Sector Unions are as sleezy as it gets. Bankrupt citys, and states with little or no carrying. Just as long as the greedy Civil Serpant gets what they want. Make me sick!!
It_pays_to_lie on February 10 at 8:52 a.m.
I hope the new negotiations drag out for years. This will allow Tim Eymann time to pass a law to get rid of bargaining.
These overpaid firemen have the right to quit. They won’t because they know there will be hundreds of people ready to replace them for half what the get.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/feb/08/editorial-binding-arbitration-disregards-ability/
The city needs to pay the Zehm family befor the police & fire.
The Zehm case taught us that the city lies to us. They dont care about telling the truth.
Did any police or firemen stand up for the Zehm family? No they went along with the big lie. Why should any body trust them.
Commish on February 10 at 9:02 a.m.
Let’s stay on point It_pays_to_Lie….there’s no need to bring the Zehm family into this….This is a case of a Contract was settled and the “Newly Elected” are reneging on the agreement. Drag it all you want as I’m sure the Firefighters are off the clock when they are negotiating and the City is not…..your tax dollars are going out for no good reason when there was a fair agreement reached …..
gotcha on February 10 at 9:16 a.m.
Fair agreement reached?????? Maybe in your eyes but not in mine and many other tax payers. That agreement was pushed thru just before Verner left office and you know it. You and your Union also knew that you would in no way get as good a deal in the next administration. Thats why it was agreed upon. Just another nail in the tax payers.
It_pays_to_lie on February 10 at 9:19 a.m.
Commish
Thankyou for helping me make my point. The city takes care of there own first and not the public. Why rush to get pay raises for clubbing cops and lazy firemen when the Zehm family was ignored.
Not one person with the city stood up and said the Zehm case was a big lie. We had to spend millions to defend this lie and the people who told it. The worsts ones were the ones that sat back and did nothing.
Police and fire should be taught a lesson for looking the other way.
It_pays_to_lie on February 10 at 10:33 a.m.
Commish
Snider and Waldref wanted the contract accepted that Verner approved. These same lap dogs stood behind Verner when she wouldnt tell the truth about the Zehm case. Why should we trust them.
The Zehm case has taken years and its not done. Overpaid city employees deserve the same inaction towards there pay raises. U got to hit them in there pocketbook to get there attention. Lying by omission shouldnt pay. In a perfect world no pay raises until city hall gets fixed.
Why not treat city workers with the same disrespect they gave the Zehms.
outsidethebox on February 10 at 11:29 a.m.
Pays to be a lier- commish didn’t make your point at all actually. And if you want to comment on zehm case there is a different thread for that. Tim is full of stupid ideas, so iam sure he will try. Iam sure you would get “quality” applicants If you had your way of 84 hours a week and half the pay, probably same people who work at Walmart and McDonald’s, is that who you want coming to save you and your family on your worst day if your life?
Gotcha- the problem are the commissioners who voted it down. Even mayor Condon backed the deal. If you are so concerned with saving tax payers money, which I agree with as a tax payer myself. Then why would you be ok with turning down a deal just because they were not involved in it, and it will end up costing tax payers more money? Sounds like you are really just jealous of our job, pay and benefits. I welcome you to test with us to see if you can get hired. Something tells me your not cut out for this job. You would rather sit around and whine about making minimum wage at a dead end Job.
justmy2 on February 10 at 12:32 p.m.
Just one more comment about the Zehm case - although it really has nothing to do with this topic - SFD employees testified truthfully in the Det. Thompson trial, and he was convicted. What more do you want. Do you not realize what a stupid idea it would be for the city to allow any employees to speak publicly about any topic that is going through the legal process?
And gotcha, something for you to reflect on - SFD will respond to your call for help at any time of day, in any weather, for any situation that you think is an emergency. And they will do it with the same high level of professionalism that they show on each and every response - even though you refuse to show them even the slightest bit of respect,.
gotcha on February 10 at 1:03 p.m.
Anyone care to chat about Leoff-1 system. Free lifelong coverage of anything deemed “necessary medical services.” A Cadilac of medical plans, and who decides what is necessary?? Local boards that are autonomous nearly half the voting members are enrolled in the same retirement system.
Spokane tax payers have purchased Viagra, stairgliders, $1700 matresses, penile implants.
Both fire fighters and police are eligible.
Who gets the bill???? yup, you guessed it.
justmy2 on February 10 at 2:26 p.m.
More misinformation gotcha? Leoff-1 ended 20+ years ago. The only people receiving benefits from that program were hired long ago, and almost all of them are retired. Oh, and by the way, Leoff 1 is overfunded - there will be money left over after the last member dies.
gotcha on February 10 at 3:02 p.m.
justmy2: By golly I was reading an interisting article from the Journal of Business dated 11/08/2007. The article reads; Spokane city Council reminds us how political its decision making can be. It did that in September, when it quitely rushed through a measure that would spend $10.6 Million in property tax money so a group of retired fire fighters would not have to pay a monthly medicare premium that every other retiree must pay. It goes on to say the fire fighter Union were delighted and the city council slipped the tax payers a sucker punch. Article is quite long but extremely interisting. You should read it.
Union money buys nice little favors, huh !!
gotcha on February 10 at 3:05 p.m.
justmy2…. Exactly Leoff-1 was for retirement… We will be paying for it for a long time.
justmy2 on February 10 at 3:26 p.m.
gotcha, you are just plain wrong on this one. The Leoff 1 pension system has not received any taxpayer contributions for a long, long time. The fund has more money in it than is needed, and when the last member dies that surplus will go back to the state for other uses. And I remember the article you quote, but as in all things, it only presents one side of the story. And we are talking about a very small group of people - the last member in Leoff 1 was hired in 1977.
Commish on February 10 at 3:31 p.m.
Gotcha…..Your wrong when you ASSume that.”You and your Union”…I’m a retired Firefighter …I’m not a Spokane Firefighter and it’s their Union not mine. They (The Union) bargined in good faith and the City Council voted it down. That’s the facts and anything else you say is not on point….
gotcha on February 10 at 3:44 p.m.
Public Sector Unions spend tax payers money to screw them.. Hows that??
Commish on February 10 at 3:53 p.m.
Gotcha…..What’s your question???? Facts????
justmy2 on February 10 at 4:03 p.m.
gotcha, public sector unions do not spend tax payer’s money. They spend their own money, to support their own interests. The only place you will ever be happy is somewhere with no taxes, no public workers, and no government. Need help packing?
outsidethebox on February 10 at 4:29 p.m.
Gotcha- you just proved your own ignorance. The union doesn’t spend tax payer money at all. They don’t receive any money from tax payers. They spend their own money they get from members of the union.
However you do pay the city for the 9 months of negotations and now even more.
Commish on February 10 at 5:20 p.m.
BINGO!!! Thanks outsidethebox and justmy2.
westbnsf on February 10 at 11:30 p.m.
johnclarke on February 08 at 10:03 p.m.
“Let’s just subtract all the hours you do nothing. Hum, that is hard to figure out, since you fight less than 70 structure fires per year. Well, not you - the entire fire department.”
You might wan to get your facts right before you post. Check out SFD Standard of cover for 2010 http://www.spokanefire.org/documents/Spokane_SOC_and_Deployment_Plan_2010_Final.pdf
Look on page 18 and you will find that SFD was dispatched to 370 structure fires that year. And over the years the fire service as a whole has grown to include calls beyond fires. SFD as a whole ran 27,296 calls in 2009 (page 18). Oh and farther down, page 28 shows a good graph of the unit utilization broken down by trucks for SFD. In the text below the graph you will notice that
“a unit hour utilization greater than 0.10 means that the response unit will not be able to provide on-time response to at least 90 percent of incidents even if response is its only activity. Incident commitment beyond the 0.10 utilization makes it unavailable for the next response in its first-due area, requiring a response from a more distant unit.”
That means deleyed responses to your friend who is having a heart attack, or your daughter who is pinned in her car when it was hit by a drunk driver, or your neighbor’s house fire. A quick look at the graph shows that 5 of the companies are above the .10 mark and another 2 are pretty close. All this goes to show that firefighters at many of SFD’s stations are not just sitting around with nothing to do.
Gotcha - so you think firefighters should work 48 on 48 off and just sleep the 48 on? See my above comment about the amount that SFD runs every year. And even beyond the number of calls. Have you every had to get up at 3am to drive to the same house to pick someone up off the floor for several nights in a row? Or what about just sitting down to dinner and having to leave it all on the table to go and try to rescue a couple teenagers out of a car that a drunk driver ran into? Or have you felt the helplessness of doing everything that you can for someone only to have them die right in your arms while their family members are crying and freaking out all around? Firefighters face challenges every day that many people would never even think about attempting.
I guess what saddens me the most is that many firefighters in SFD and across this country would rush into a burning building risking their life (and at times giving their life) to save your son/daughter/mother/father/brother/sister. Yet there are all of those citizens who sit back and whine and complain about firefighters being paid too much. Thanks commish, bhnbhn, arty, and the others who actually understand and appreciate what firefighters do every day!
gotcha on February 11 at 4:47 a.m.
Mary Verner while still sitting on city council in 2007 pushed thru a $10.6 million property tax increase on Spokane tax payers so retired fire fighters would not have to pay monthly medicare payments like everyone else does. The fire fighters Union said, “so what?” they also contend that since the money comes out of Leoff-1-fire pension fund, rathar than the citys general fund, we should’nt care. Be clear, the pension funds are supported by property taxes. This was pushed thru council so fast that than mayor Dennis Hessin, “who was opposed to it.” was surprised.
Now keep in mind this is the same Mary Verner, who rushed to sign the new fire fighters labor contract just before she left office…. The fire fighters Union knew who their little gray haired buddy was as Verner screwed Spokane AGAIN,
Now would anyone like to suggest that Verner and the fire fighters Union were just a real cozy thing or what. Verner just your typical Union bought Progressive politican that would think nothing of screwing taxpayers to get political contributations.
Anyone that would like to read this article just go to Journal of Business dated 11/08/2007.
gotcha on February 11 at 5:02 a.m.
westbnsf: Yes sir, I would love to see you work 48 on and 48 off for your work schedule with NO OVERTIME.
I know you are shocked that anyone would ask our hero’s to do that, but what I need is a super hero. Are you willing to work 48 on and 48 off to keep your job westbnsf ? Or would you quit ?
Maybe you think that working ten days a month and than having to work until you are 50 is enough for any hero.
Please respond.. This taxpayer would like to know.
gotcha on February 11 at 5:05 a.m.
justmy2: Leoff-1 is alive and well. It lives on property taxes of the taxpayers.
gotcha on February 11 at 5:30 a.m.
outsidethebox: Taxpayers furnish overly generous salarys, benifits, and pensions to firefighters thru their taxes. The firefighters use a portion on that money for Union dues to gain favor and an upperhand over the taxpayers.
We the taxpayers get nothing but screwed for being nice guys…
Than you have the arrogance to call me ignorant with the statement you made. You better go back to school you idiot.
Commish on February 11 at 8:06 a.m.
Gotcha…..You say you the taxpayer is getting
screwed…..Remember that next time you dial 911 and all those Civil Servants show up at your door to help @ 2:00 a.m. in the morning.
If you have nothing civil to say than I think you need to say nothing. Calling someone “Idiot” because they disagree with you is uncalled for .
westbnsf on February 11 at 8:08 a.m.
Gotcha - I work as a volunteer firefighter so I provide service for free. However I have many friends in the professional fire service who I know would quit if they had to work 48 on 48 off. I suggest you volunteer with your local fire department and “walk a mile in their shoes” to really see what it is all about. Keep in mind that many small volunteer departments only see a small percentage of calls compared to larger city departments like SFD.
A word about overtime, keep in mind that firefighters do not get overtime pay unless they work over 212 hours in a 28 day work period (which breaks down to 53 hours in a 7 day work week). This is according to the FLSA http://www.flsa.com/fire.html. And for all of you who think firefighters get paid $50 an hour to work do some math. As listed above by several people, SFD’s base salary is somewhere around 35k per year. Working 24/72 with 12 debit days makes for 2478hrs per year. Even if you made 40k a year that would only make for $16.14/hr. That is not really that much as compared to other areas of the medical field in the hospital setting.
justmy2 on February 11 at 8:13 a.m.
I’ll try again - FACTS!
Washington State Department of Retirement Systems
2009
LEOFF Plan 1
Medical Benefits Fact Book
Chapter Four – LEOFF Plan 1 Funding
LEOFF Plan 1
LEOFF Plan 1 was closed in 1977. As of June 30, 2000 all employer and employee contributions to this plan were suspended indefinitely unless the most recent valuation study indicates the plan has unfunded liabilities.
gotcha on February 11 at 8:14 a.m.
commish: Put a lid on it.. He called me ignorant and I WILL defend myself. The man made as dumb a statement as I have ever heard while calling me ignorant. Are you a hall monitor?
Commish on February 11 at 8:23 a.m.
Gotcha…..Name calling went out in the third grade. If you have to revert to it….move on. Fact and inteligent conversation works not name calling .
gotcha on February 11 at 8:24 a.m.
Commish.. Name calling is right behind the hall monitor. Move on yourself.
Commish on February 11 at 8:27 a.m.
Those are all your words not mine…I’m trying to keep you on point and you revert to name calling……stay on the subject or turn the page……
gotcha on February 11 at 8:33 a.m.
commish: Next time you come to my home at 2:00 am I will have coffee and donuts ready for you.
It_pays_to_lie on February 11 at 8:49 a.m.
You firemen r more concerned with protecting your high pay then
providing service that is logical. Taking your big trucks to grocery shop tells me you dont care about us taxpayer.
New mayor and council was elected by people who dont trust u greedy firemen. The majority counts and u better learn to live with less like the rest of us.
westbnsf on February 11 at 9:03 a.m.
it_pays_to_lie - so you want firefighters to take their personal vehicles to the store to shop?? That way when a fire happens they take an extra 5 minutes to drive back to the station to pick up the truck? Or maybe just 1 person should go to the store that way when the call comes he/she can just be left? That would make crews who are already understaffed even worse. In the fire service the crew goes everyone together that they are prepared to respond in their truck to an emergency at any time. Also if you think firefighters high paid then maybe you didn’t read the above posts about the base salary of 35k a year. Nurses, office workers, constructions laborers, and teachers all make roughly that or more a year.
Commish on February 11 at 9:16 a.m.
It_pays_to_lie…..If there is a Fire rig at the store they are in service and ready to go at a moments notice. Someone had said “send the new guy to the store with a list for groceries”. That does two things 1. reduces you manpower to three on the fire engine and 2. a single firefighter out by himself extends the response if he is needed.
The new Mayor was for the new contract so I think he feels it is reasonable.
@ gotcha….If they show up @ your house I hope and pray your able to offer them coffee and donuts and not the one they are there for. You ‘d be surprised at the times people actually apoligize for having to call us out at the early morning hours.
I think this thread has is hit it’s max so we shall wait to see if the Firefighters get a fair and reasonable contract from the City of Spokane.
justmy2 on February 11 at 9:17 a.m.
He probably thinks they shouldn’t be allowed to eat for 48 hours too.
gotcha on February 11 at 9:18 a.m.
How many construction workers, nurses, teachers etc. work ten days a month and retire at 50 ?? How many of them are making between $80k and 100k after several years with the benifits and pensions afforded to firefighters??
gotcha on February 11 at 9:20 a.m.
commish… I think if you showed up at my home it would be with a pillow to put over my face.
It_pays_to_lie on February 11 at 9:26 a.m.
Most working people have to produce something for there boss.
There boss dont let them go shopping with the entire office because the work will stop. Boss make no money workers out of work. U firemen dont produce any thing so u dont care about the cost to us. U need to pay for the fuel and truck if u use it for personal use.
Commish on February 11 at 9:31 a.m.
Gotcha…..If you called regardless of your opinions I would be @ your house to help in anyway I can. You have your right to disagree as well as I do also. But bottom line….they are there to protect and serve.Fact #1 Firefighter work on average 56 hours a week. Fact #2 it’s cheaper to pay time and one-half then hire a new person. Fact# 3 If they to work 48 straight hours like you suggest I hope you won’t mind if they have something to eat and rest awhile???? Every job has different work environments and as a firefighter there’s is unique. Just spend one shift with them and I guarantee you’ll change your opinion.
gotcha on February 11 at 9:38 a.m.
Commish.. I truly think most of you guys are good people that care about what you do.. However I do object to the Unions and collective bargaining. You know as well as I that the tax payers are being taken advantage of. This process can not keep going. Sooner or later citys and states are not going to be able to afford many of these lavish benefits. When that happens the states will be forced to restructure and all that you guys have now will come crashing down around your ears. You guys need to wake up and quit trying to stick it to us.
Commish on February 11 at 9:47 a.m.
Gotcha…..I recommend going to www.lbpost.com and see what a typical shift is like from the department I retired from. Once your on the page scroll down to “A day in the Life of a Long beach Firefighter” then tell me they’re over paid and greedy.
justmy2 on February 11 at 9:50 a.m.
Most states that have gotten in trouble with public pension systems have done so because they made a conscious decision not to meet their obligation to fund the pensions, or because they have actually raided the pension funds and put that dedicated money to other uses - effectively stealing from the employees who have contributed to the funds. Fortunately - for all of us - the Washington Department of Retirement system and our state lawmakers have - so far - acted wisely and responsibly, and our pension systems are healthy and secure. And while I understand your frustrations, the labor contract currently up for negotiation has nothing to do with the retirement system or benefits.
gotcha on February 11 at 9:51 a.m.
I recomend working construction for over forty years that was a lot harder on you than working ten days a month and retiring at fifty. Give me a break. You actually WORK HARD the entire shift.
Commish on February 11 at 9:56 a.m.
Obviously I’m not getting through…so It’s time for me to turn the page and let’s wait and see.
westbnsf on February 11 at 10:32 a.m.
Gotcha - firefighters work 10 days a month because that is just their schedule. Most nurses work 12hr days (12 days a month). Teachers work 8hr days (20 a month). Construction workers work 12, 16, or 20 days a month depending on whether they work a 8hr, 10hr, or 12hr day. It is just a fact of the job. Oh and not all fire departments work that schedule. If you go over to Missoula MT, their FD works 10hr days and 14hr nights swing style. Do firefighters like having so many days off? Of course….wouldn’t you rather work 3 12hr days instead of 5 8hr days? Every job is different with pros and cons.
It_pays_to_lie - actually most bosses do let the entire office go to the store or wherever they want together. It is called lunch break! Firefighters just have a paid lunch and they also have 3 meals to worry about during their shift instead of just 1.
We are now way off topic from the original article, and I am done with the senseless arguing. Now waiting to see what happens with the new contract.
brianrbreen on February 11 at 10:43 a.m.
I don’t want to enter the fray but I am interested in one aspect of the SFD contract. I noted some time back that a firefighter was rightfully terminated from employment and appealed the termination to Civil Service who upheld the termination. Did the contract at issue still have disciplinary appeals through Civil Service rather than settlement through Secret Binding Arbitration (not to be confused with “Interest Binding Arbitration”)?
liveinfearoftheSPD on February 11 at 11:05 a.m.
It would seem there is an easy solution to this problem.
Shop before you go to work. Plan ahead. Most people are able to fix their lunch before they leave for work. They reportedly have all the amenities of a kitchen. Stock up. If they run out of something they can call a wife to get it for them. There really is no need to take any fire equipment on a shopping spree.
reservedparking on February 11 at 12:17 p.m.
@ liveinfear: It would seem there is an easy solution to this problem.
It’s not a problem. Stop at the store on the way back from a call.
Worry about larger problems.
outsidethebox on February 11 at 12:44 p.m.
Gotcha- first off I apologize for saying you were ignorant, what I was trying to say is you have no knowledge on this topic. Almost everything you say seems to be false. I appreciate you saying that most of us are good guys, thank you. Every firefighter is appreciative of our jobs and compensation we receive.your point about union spending money to screw the tax payer is false, the union is here to protect our rights, and fair wages and benefits.
If we are so close with Mayor Verner, why did it take 9 months?
48 on 48 off is so ridiculous, I don’t even have to think about what I would do because it would never happen. I for one believe famiky time is so important, and being at work 50% of the time would not be benificial to my family, and i do believe my family time is as important as your family time is. After all you spending 23% of your time at work must be nice. Some Fire departments do work 48 on 96 off though. There are over 5,000 union fire departments in USA/Canada and no one I know of works that many hours, can you please produce one that does, case closed.
Also I wanted to clairify something stated a while ago, firefighters can’t retire until 53, and most wait much longer and serve 30+ years, SFD just had 3 members retire with 40, 45, and 46 years of service.
As far as construction work, yes very hard work, but you chose that career not me.
Reference to shopping, I believe it is a great hint for tax layers it gets us out in the community interacting with tax layers and little children, and usually we stop by on way back from a emergency call. Remember we don’t always go to emergency calls with lights and sirens, maybe half the time.
As westbnsf pointed out we don’t have the luxury of breaks and lunch hours like most jobs, we get interrupted all the time, cold meals eating lunch around 3. If we are out as a crew we are working.
Brianrbeen- I am not really sure what the question is Forsure, but I don’t believe binding arbitration has anything to do with it. But iam not sure what secret binding arbitration is?
brianrbreen on February 11 at 12:57 p.m.
@outsidethebox
I believe up until this contract, unlike what the Police Guild negotiated a long time ago, when a city firefighter was disciplined the only way they could appeal the discipline was through the Civil Service appeal process, which is open to the public, and everything comes out. The cops contract allows them to appeal discipline to an arbitrator, which a vast majority of the time ends up in favor of the cop and that process is secret and binding on both parties. I don’t know if the fire union tried to get that in this new contract or not, if they did I would be opposed to it. The rest of the stuff you guys can fight out.
outsidethebox on February 11 at 1:07 p.m.
Brainrbreen- no it doesn’t have that
brianrbreen on February 11 at 1:17 p.m.
@outsidethebox
Good. Now I’ll just add this, you folks can fight it out as to how much you are worth but as far as firefighting being a dangerous job, it is, I wouldn’t want to do it nor would I like to have to deal with the smell of a burned firefighters body again and the autopsy to follow, or for that matter all the things associated with fire victims bodies.
Having said that, and on a lighter note, any firefighter who has been on the SFD for any length of time knows full well that the job, though dangerous, is a lot less dangerous since Dunlap and Gasperino retired.
gotcha on February 12 at 4:35 a.m.
outsidethebox: Apology excepted….So I suspect our point of contention is Union dues… You are claiming ” the union is here to protect our rights, and fair wages and benifits.” You fail to mention what your Union does with all the money collected from the dues… Now I know it does’nt lay in a fund and wait till Easter to buy all the kids bunnies…. Lets grow up and say it like it is. The money is used to buy political favor by giving Politicans funds for their political campaigns, and coughhhh, other things……. So it boils down to the fact that when us tax payers give you money you are using a portion of that money to buy favor with the same people you are negoitating with. We all know that many of the politicans in this fine country are less than ethical and they will take that money and show you political favor. Cough, “Verner”.
I am not so Naive that I believe Mary Verner while she was on the city council before she ran for mayor slamb dunked that 10.6 million dollar property tax increase on the citizens of Spokane because she knew you guys were deprived of benefits. She did it for political favor…. She knew she was going to run for mayor and needed the finincial and political suport that you guys gave her.
Before she left office as mayor it was the same thing.. Old Mary taking care of her boys before she left office. Your Union knew they were much better off signing what they could get off of her than waiting till the next administration took office.
However these contributations are used they are always to buy political favor, and us tax payers get left holding the stinky bag that has been handed down thru the process.
In the perfect world HONEST POLITICANS that do their job well are suppose to be working for the majority at large, “the tax payer.” They are suppose to provide certain services at the most affordable prices, extracting the least amount of money possible from the tax payers…. Unions on the other hand are just the opposite. They are always trying to extract as much money as possible for their members. I might add, your Union has done a great job for you guys.
GM & Chrysler in the private sector are prime examples… In the 50’s and 60’s they were both fortune 500 companys. By the time the Unions finised with them they were broke companys ready to close their doors, ” which I believe should have happened.” Than along came Obama and gave them more of my money, which was total BS in MHO. He should have let them go under. Several years down the road it will be the same thing all over again. The Unions will get to greedy and take them out again. The good news is that in the Private Sector the business will go broke and close down if the Unions get to greedy. In the Public Sector we are just suppose to keep on digging deeper and it just is’nt right.
Commish on February 12 at 9:17 a.m.
Gotcha…..Are you aware that “The new Mayor” also approved of the new contract for the Firefighters and it was only “The New members “of the City + - one who want to renegotiate??? It’s a good contract and the City should honor it….You keep saying how your upset on how they spend their dollars…..It’s America last time I checked and they can spend it how they like…just as you can spend you dollars. Again let’s wait and see how this comes out and I promise I won’t say ” I told you so”.
outsidethebox on February 12 at 11:19 a.m.
Gotcha- Political contributions are not a secret. Unions can spend their money how they wish. Yes they use some money for political reasons. They also spend a lot of money every month to help people or charities in need through our benevolent fund. As far as what or how I spend my money, like commish said, I get to spend it how I wish, same as you. Unions didn’t bring down those company’s, economy and management did. I do agree with you, company’s and banks should not have got a bail out. But I Don’t know enough about it, and they probably did it to prevent collapse of economy. Obviously you are against unions, I won’t be changing your mind.
Commish on February 12 at 9:30 p.m.
Gotcha….They also pay their City taxes as you do.
gotcha on February 13 at 4:27 a.m.
outsidethebox…So you do not believe Unions took down GM & Chrysler???? hmmmmmm.. I really do not know what to say.
I will tell you the smartest thing done after Obama bailed them out was that they pretty much made the Union as part ownership. Now when they get to greedy, hint, hint, they can canabalize themselves. WOW I like that…. What a great idea.. I wonder how we can work that system in the Public Sector ????
Commish on February 13 at 3:06 p.m.
The Unions destroyed GM and Chrysler???? Do you think the Multi-Million Dollar Bonuses had anything to do with that??? HELLO????? I’m surprised you didn’t blame Bush for that…everyone else has……
gotcha on February 14 at 5:35 a.m.
Commish: Little hope for you… Do you have any idea how much GM pension liabilities is ???? It amounts to 128 Billion dollars… Thats B with a Billion…
You and your Union are Socialist… You want to make as much as possible for doing as little as possible and by God you guys will beat the drum all the way to the bank. I call that lazy….
Give me the good old working stiff that has busted his back and risked everything he has to create a business that has made him wealthy…. I will kiss his feet… Give the man the respect he is due.
You and your Public Sector Unions get little respect from me.
JBlim on February 14 at 5:48 a.m.
“. I will kiss his feet… ”
Yeah, we can see that. Your outlook is unbalanced, it’s not as black and white as you say.
gotcha on February 14 at 7:05 a.m.
JBlim: My point is that I respect the hell out of a man that has worked hard to gain his sucess, while I despise the Unions way of gaining wealth, which is by working as little as possible while sucking the life out of the entity that feeds it.
Fire fighters Union is the PRIME example of this… Working 10 days a month and retirement at 50 years??? Give us a break.
Commish on February 14 at 7:52 a.m.
So your basically saying you have no respect for Firefighters??? Is that what I’m hearing???? If that’s the case I’d think twice next time you need one. They would be there in a heartbeat and not worry about what YOU think……enjoy your high blood pressure and it’s time for me to let this play out.
reservedparking on February 14 at 8:11 a.m.
Gotcha:
Don’t let facts get in your way. (Minimum) retirement age is now 53.
The old adage about ‘battle of wits with an unarmed man’ comes to mind…
gotcha on February 14 at 8:35 a.m.
reserved parking: Oh, yeah… 53 years before they can retire… Excuseeeeeeeee me.
Commish: I said little respect… I will give you a little respect for coming to work ten times a month, because that is all it is worth to me. Go suck some more money out of the tax payer. You are better at that than coming up with a winning argument here.
Commish on February 15 at 1:57 p.m.
Gotcha……I’m retired but feel Spokane Firefighters were given a raw deal. Your entitled to your opinions and we’ll just have to disagree on this issue. I wish you the best at what ever you do and me…….I’ll enjoy my retirement.