Joker: We Are To Blame For Mess

69 comments on this post so far. Add yours!

• 

  keithincda on February 18 at 8:28 a.m.

  I’d say that’s a pretty accurate assessment.

  I also bet Bob’s eyeballs popped out of his head when he saw that Joker got front paged.

• 

  Cabbage Boy on February 18 at 8:32 a.m.

  I would agree. It is an american problem. We are greedy. From the sterotypical welfare recipient that collects other peoples wages rather than take a job that is “beneath them” to the CEO of a failing company taking a golden parachute.

  Screw everybody else, I got mine. The new American Dream.

  America needs to produce something. Other than spoiled greedy material-wanting children that emulate their spoiled, greedy, material-loving parent(s).

• 

  Ravenlady on February 18 at 8:52 a.m.

  I wanted to comment about Joker and how I see his assessment right on with we as Americans in the North. The shop until you drop mentality has been going on for so long. The shopping as a way of regulating emotions is something that is not being talked about in families. At Christmas, a guard gets killed by shoppers. Something is really wrong with this picture.

  We are driven by the ad agencies to continue to buy, even when we are maxed out with our credit cards. How about ad’s saying to live within our means….wouldn’t pay their wages.

  So, Cabbage Boy, what do you say we produce to make money?

• 

  JeanieSpokane on February 18 at 9:01 a.m.

  I agree wholeheartedly, Joker! We are spoiled brats - see it, buy it! If Joe next door bought a 32 inch flat screen, we go out and buy a 60 inch and parade it around for a few minutes so Joe knows we one-upped him. We’ve got to have things! things! things! We don’t even want them. We just have to have them. Newly married with babies move into houses better than they grew up in and are instantly overwhelmed with mortgage payments, taxes, maintenance way above their means. What happened to living within your budget. What happened to HAVING a budget.

• 

  Cabbage Boy on February 18 at 9:03 a.m.

  Ravenlady, I don’t quite understand your question. If you are asking what SHOULD we produce, then it is a long answer about bringing back our manufacturing.

  If it is what DO we produce right now, not much. There are lots of small manufacturers that struggle to compete, but the small companies don’t have the capital for innovation and pushing the market like larger companies do. With the current climate they are struggling to survive.

  Bringing back the off-shore mfging would mean reducing the burden of taxes and regulations. Last I heard, 30% of income was spent on tax and regulation. That is difficult to overcome. The fact that any manufacturing exists in the US right now is a testament to the will and efficiency of those companies and owners.

• 

  scootermom on February 18 at 9:15 a.m.

  Yes.

  Our entire culture seems to be based on consumption. Even if we have enough, we are encouraged to consume more. Fashions that are out of style next year, appliances that are disposable rather than repairable, cars that are leased rather than owned, bigger houses, flatter TV’s, more toys, etc.

  I jumped off that insane treadmill a few years ago. I wear out of style clothes, drive a 11 year old car and generally have figured out how to not buy as much stuff. My new rule is: If something new comes into the house, something old has to go out. That makes me stop and think, “Hey, what’s wrong with what I have.”

  We dug ourselves into this hole. We have to dig ourselves out. First step is to stop buying so much stuff.

• 

  poolman on February 18 at 9:20 a.m.

  That mentality is what separates those that will sink in the quicksand that is the “economic crisis” and those that will reap the benefit of undervalued stocks and cheap property and assets. If you allowed yourself to get underwater in a mortgage, accumulate credit card debt to the point you are only paying the minimum payment and do not have a 6-9 month “rainy day” fund in savings (for starters), you are pretty much screwed if you lose your job right now. Go ahead and start the bankruptcy paperwork. You were stupid and didn’t use good judgment and now you have to pay the price. I hope you had fun on those vacations to Hawaii and Cabo that are now being financed at 18-23% interest.

  I personally have been extremely conservative with my spending. I could live in a 5000 sq ft house, have 5 jet skis, a Malibu ski boat, a fleet of 4-wheelers, etc. etc. but I’ve resisted those temptations. I have only bought what I could pay cash for and live in a modest house. Now I have a stock pile of money that I will be using to snatch up the toys and property that un-disciplined morons couldn’t resist and now can’t afford and I will acquire these things at a pittance of what they were originally purchased for. Some call it a crisis – I call it a yard sale.

• 

  hmoffsuite on February 18 at 9:25 a.m.

  Happiness doesn’t come from having what you want. Rather, it comes when you want what you have.

• 

  idawa on February 18 at 9:36 a.m.

  While I agree with the sentiment, it lead directly to what economist call the “paradox of thrift.” Our precarious financial position is caused by our overspending and use of debt, but, our economy is very, very dependent upon consumer spending. Mass thrift would lead to an utter collapse. We could have a major culture change, which is needed, but we would have to go through a major depression in order to get there…is that what we want? How many of you advocating thrift have incomes that are dependent on consumer spending? Do you want those consumers who use your service or goods to stop spending? Are you prepared for your children to have a lower standard of living than you do? There must be a gradual shift away from consumer spending based economy, but a sudden halt in spending is scary.

• 

  Bent on February 18 at 9:37 a.m.

  I agree cabbage, we are no longer generating “new” wealth in our country. For instance, when you mine an ounce of gold, you just added about $800 in “new” wealth to the economy.

  When we shut down natural resource extraction industries in our country back in the 90s, we shut down a lot of our ability to generate new wealth.

  Other countries naturally picked up the slack and attracted our manufacturing industires with cheaper resources and labor…

  It’s a shame really…

• 

  Cabbage Boy on February 18 at 9:49 a.m.

  You make a good point Idawa. But the depression is here. A correction needed to happen for a long time now. But none of the politicians wanted it to happen on their watch. That is the problem with the Keynesian influence. It puts politicians (who seldom put our best interests first) in charge of the economy. They would rather stay elected than allow our economy to go through a down turn.

  So they invent ways to prop it up artificially with the (non-)Federal Reserve setting the interest rate and printing money without any backing. So it keeps going up and up and eventually the needed down-turn becomes a crash.

  And the bottom line in this, more government spending isn’t going to help. It will fatten the fat and the rest of us will go hungry.

• 

  idawa on February 18 at 10:01 a.m.

  CB - the economy is bad, but this is not the depression…yet. (see yesterdays WSJ for a good editorial). Despite Obama’s fear rhetoric, we are no where near that bottom we would hit if consumers really stopped spending. If we truly stopped spending we could see unemployment reach the upper 20% (peak in 1930 was approx 26%). (consumer spending is an even greater % of the economy now than is was at the turn of the century). Imagine, 1 in 4 not having any type of employment and even more being under-employed. I don’t think we understand how good our lifestyle is. I guess we could just stop government spending, stop consumer spending, and given our trade deficit, just see how bad it can get…

• 

  nic on February 18 at 10:03 a.m.

  I briefly mentioned this on my blog yesterday… http://nicholasccasey.blogspot.com/2009/02/25-random-things-real-version.html

  “I believe that modern consumerism is a soulless ideal devoid of independent thought. It has created within our society a herd mentality. It has stripped us of our identity. And it has blinded us to our own greed - a greed that is the root of our nation’s current economic crisis.”

• 

  Aliasjax on February 18 at 10:23 a.m.

  “Greedy” always describes “the other guy,” doesn’t it?

  Consumer based economies are long, long from dead. The global economy that will emerge from this downturn will dwarf all the wealth created to date. Markets in China and India are about to open that will create worldwide demand for American goods and services that will fuel a wealth creation heretofore unprecedented. While it’s true that America’s economy will grow at a slower rate, and will be replaced by China by mid-century as the world’s largest, the world is about to see the greatest reduction in poverty, and the greatest elevation of relative living standards ever, ever.

• 

  Arch_Druid on February 18 at 10:25 a.m.

  Let’s put it bluntly, my job does depend on consumer spending. If consumer spending goes down, my work hours get cut and I can’t pay the bills in the way that I would prefer. While the rest of you are railing away about toys that you “don’t need.” If you can live without an HDTV, or a TV period, you don’t need a converter box because of the preceding, you don’t need cable or satellite TV. Fine. But since the implementation of Digital TV beginning in the early 1990s, the gvt itself mandated progress in our entertainment viewing and the manufacturing of toys to better receive it. But, I do notice that none of you live without computers, none of you live without spending on online services whether broadband, dial up or DSL. Or you wouldn’t be posting your displeasure here. Someone has to sell you those things, even if you cut back in other areas.

  However, I can appreciate some of the more thoughtful posts. You don’t need to leverage your house to buy that expensive vacation in Hawaii. You don’t need to max your credit card to buy the most expensive clothes. You don’t need to take out second mortgages so that you can have a yacht. I can’t afford most clothes unless they are deeply clearanced. Once I do buy them, I wear them for years until they are worn out. I don’t replace anything until it is broken and no longer usable. I am also prepared to shop for bargains at thrift shops. But as long as we are a market economy, we should be expected to pay $$$ for what we get. Should we put ourselves deeply in debt, no. Nor should lending and financial institutions get a gvt mandate to encourage us to do that. The fact that they did, and in the last few years, is one of the many factors behind our economic doldrums. Saw part of a Frontline commentary on this very thing last night. That is, before I abruptly fell asleep. Hope we can all take a lesson from “Behind the Melt down.”

• 

  DFO on February 18 at 10:29 a.m.

  Joan; your 10:25 a.m. post is one of your best ever.

• 

  nic on February 18 at 10:35 a.m.

  Joker’s original thought: “We’ve been busily buying things with money we don’t have”

  CB @ 8:32: “We are greedy.”

  Ravenlady @ 8:52: “We are driven by the ad agencies to continue to buy, even when we are maxed out with our credit cards. ”

  Jeanie @ 9:01: “We are spoiled brats - see it, buy it!… We’ve got to have things!”

  scootermom @ 9:15: “Even if we have enough, we are encouraged to consume more.”

  me @ 10:03: “And it has blinded us to our own greed”

  Aliasjax @ 10:23: “’Greedy’ always describes ‘the other guy,’ doesn’t it?”

  Tell me, Aliasjax… how does all of that “us” and “we” and “our” equal “the other guy”?

• 

  Arch_Druid on February 18 at 10:38 a.m.

  Thanx Dave.

• 

  jazzyvandal on February 18 at 10:47 a.m.

  I do agree with this. I’m glad I have started to budget now. When I was in college, I really didn’t.

  I know the younger generation needs to know how to budget and not get caught up in the world of credit. Saving seems to be forgotten with a lot of people. I wish I did. I’m too busy getting out of the mess I got myself into.

• 

  Cabbage Boy on February 18 at 10:51 a.m.

  Joan, some of us are in a similar boat. We haven’t had cable for 10 years or so. Since the last $19.99 a month expired to be exact. Have never bought a TV. And spent the weekend fixing my 94 suburban myself.

  We aren’t guilt free in the consumerism, but we certainly try. But I wholeheartedly agree, the govt should not mandate lending.

  Strictly speaking, Until the government can balance their own budget (using our money of course) they shouldn’t bother trying to run an economy.

• 

  Aliasjax on February 18 at 11:00 a.m.

  “Us” “we” and “our” may include the self, but it also includes “the other guy.” If they want to say of themselves, “I am greedy,” great…but leave the other guy out of it.

  I prefer to think of individuals pursuing their own happiness, and self-interest, as a matter of choice, not sin. The problems that arise from this are not due to avarice, as such, but the recently created notion that individuals should not have to suffer the consequence of their choices.

• 

  Arch_Druid on February 18 at 11:00 a.m.

  A lot of the fiscal mess can be put on the GOP watch, Cabbage Boy. A lot of the lack of SEC oversight on what the lending and financial industry did or failed to do can be put on GW’s watch. When the GOP majority in Congress passed a bankruptcy reform bill that very strictly did favor credit card companies, I saw a ha-huge amount of credit card offers coming from companies that I had not heard of wanting me to open pre-approved accounts. I refused most of them. If that will tell you anything. Once the fed gvt protected lending companies from customers declaring bankruptcy as much as possible, the same lending companies took advantage of the situation to try to make a quick billions of bucks forcing more people into debt, and etc. Because they could, because the laws in fact favored those practices.

• 

  nic on February 18 at 11:12 a.m.

  Aliasjax, are you saying that Avista is not the greedy corporate beast we imagined? Is “my” greed to blame for their frequent rate hikes and their soaring profits?

  Maybe if “I” was less greedy, I wouldn’t need electricity to cook food for my kids or gas to to keep their bedrooms warm.

• 

  Aliasjax on February 18 at 11:43 a.m.

  What I’m saying, nic, is that “greed” is a subjective slur moreso than the source of our economic downturn.

• 

  Aliasjax on February 18 at 11:49 a.m.

  Further, nic, just to illustrate my point about greed belonging to the other guy, are Avista employees “greedy” for wanting higher salaries and more costly benefits? Are Avista customers “greedy” because they want lower rates so they can save more $$$ or buy other stuff? No, only the shareholders and/or corporate executives are greedy…you know, the other guy.

• 

  toadman on February 18 at 11:58 a.m.

  Just for the record, and not to toot my own horn.. but I posited this very idea some weeks ago. Greed, I mean. Greed and douchebaggery.

  But, I still agree. Joker, you have hit the nail on the head, in a civil tone. *golf clap…golf clap*

  ;-)

• 

  Me on February 18 at 12:47 p.m.

  What a great thread - I hope it doesn’t go sideways. I do have a question - how do you all feel about the idea that we collectively now need to rescue those who, because of the greed, find themselves in trouble? I’m speaking of the next bailout for foreclosures?

  And was the greed shared by the lendors AND those who received mortgages that never should have? Or was the greed all on the lendor side and those that received them simply victims?

• 

  nic on February 18 at 12:55 p.m.

  “Are Avista customers “greedy” because they want lower rates so they can save more $$$ or buy other stuff? No, only the shareholders and/or corporate executives are greedy…you know, the other guy.”

  Right, how dare I be greedy in wanting to buy food and other stuff to make sure my family is taken care of.

• 

  toadman on February 18 at 12:59 p.m.

  @Me - yes.. we should bail out losers as well as responsible people. A sinking ship takes down all hands, unfortunately.

• 

  Bob on February 18 at 1:01 p.m.

  Idawa and Arch for the wins.

  As to greed and foreclosures, you know when you create an economic system that for years and years systematically denies families of color equal opportunities to buy homes and finance the American Dream, and then all of a sudden mortgages were much easier to get, don’t blame the folks of color for trying to get what they should, and don’t call them greedy. To do so is to embrace a stance of white privilege that is nauseating and evil.

  Yes, there was greed in Corporate America. But that’s what they do. Duh. Without governmental regulations and oversight why would anyone be surprised that Corporate America tries to shaft everyone for the almightly dollar? Hello.

  ((((Keynes))))
  ))))Reagan((((

• 

  Me on February 18 at 1:26 p.m.

  But those who are in the foreclosure mess are not all people of color. My sister purchased a house during that time and was offered and approved for an amount WAY over what she could afford. She didn’t bite, she shopped until she found what she could afford. It was her first house and she had really no down payment and she is making her payments.

  She WASN’T greedy. She bought a house built in the 30’s in an older neighborhood instead of a brand new house. Now she is needed to help those who were greedy and KNEW they could not afford those homes.

• 

  Aliasjax on February 18 at 2:07 p.m.

  But Bob, it was government policies that made it possible for all those previously denied people access to mortgages they couldn’t afford…is it really your argument that more such regulation will fix it?

• 

  Whippersnapper on February 18 at 5:31 p.m.

  There is plenty of short-sighted greed around. But it started with banks, who could lend $100M out on deposits of $5M. Once the $100M in loans start to look shaky and the bank has to dip into the $5M in actual deposits to cover losses, investors sold like crazy until the bank had nothing and was worth negative $95M.
  Who let this trend get started? Certainly there were lots of smart people who sat by and watched banks, and Fannie and Freddie, build their businesses based on thin air. As the banks disappeared, along with the savings of millions of Americans, the financial industry became a row of dominoes where a few percentage points of bad loans could take down whole chunks of the industry.
  This started in the 80s and 90s, but it can also be laid at the door of the Bush administration. Nobody did anything, and yet we have to listen now to 20-year-veterans in congress tell us how to fix the problems. I’m not listening anymore.

• 

  Arch_Druid on February 18 at 6:41 p.m.

  For “Me’s” information, President Obama says that the foreclosure bailout won’t address people who bought mortgages more than they could afford to pay back. It can only help people to refinance existing mortgages to a more affordable level, people who at the same time kept their payments current. No, it won’t help the reckless, greedy or the jobless. Source: CNN, CBS News.

• 

  Escapee on February 18 at 7:51 p.m.

  With a credit card, you not only pay for the item, but you also pay for the privilege of buying it on credit. The credit card reflects an amount of cash you don’t yet have, but that you know (or believe) you’re gonna have. And then jobs get cut, and people who owe can’t pay while the interest keeps piling up and up.

  Debit cards are based on the money you DO HAVE RIGHT NOW. I think Credit Cards should be abolished. Go get a Debit Card. They’re virtually risk-free. I think credit cards are totally foolish, and it’s tragic to think the American Economy is so dependent upon a spending medium that DOESN’T WORK the long term. How many families are literally suffocating because all of a sudden, the credit crunch has hit more solidly than when the Road Runner drops an Anvil from a clifftop flat on the skull of Wile E. Coyote?

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