Spokane7
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January 15, 2011 in City
Creach case hinges on self-defense claim
Tucker to release charging decision next week
Alan Creach, left, and his brother Ernie Creach stand in their greenhouse Friday in Spokane Valley. They operate their father’s businesses, Creach Greenhouses and The Plant Farm.
(Full-size photo)
In principle, it seems clear that a 74-year-old pastor on his own property should not die as a result of an encounter with law enforcement, as Wayne Scott Creach did in August.
Since then, Spokane County Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich called the incident a “very unfortunate death,” and Creach’s family and the wider community have been asking for answers.
But two former prosecutors said the decision whether criminal charges are filed against sheriff’s Deputy Brian Hirzel will rest on one legal concept: self-defense.
Spokane County Prosecutor Steve Tucker is expected to announce his charging decision early next week. He said Friday, via e-mail, that he will review the report over the weekend but he is still waiting on the results of a meeting earlier in the week among Spokane police detectives, who are heading up the investigation.
Tucker’s predecessor, former Spokane County Prosecutor James Sweetser, said the crux of Tucker’s decision is whether Hirzel perceived a threat of great bodily harm or death from Creach before shooting the pastor in the chest on Aug. 25.
“It’s a complete tragedy and it’s a tragedy for the community and the congregation and the family. It shouldn’t have happened,” Sweetser said. “But the issue … is whether or not the officer could have reasonably believed that he was in danger and had a belief that he needed to use deadly force at the time.”
Hirzel shot Creach late on Aug. 25 in the parking lot of Creach’s greenhouse business in Spokane Valley. Hirzel was in an unmarked car and did not alert the business owner before parking there to watch for activity in the neighborhood after an earlier call from a resident.
Alan Creach, son of the slain pastor, said Tucker has already indicated to the family that he doesn’t expect to file charges against Hirzel.
But Alan Creach and his brother, Ernie, believe investigators have not taken the time to challenge Hirzel’s official statement describing his actions against the few seconds in which they had to have occurred.
Hirzel told investigators that he parked at The Plant Farm, 14208 E. Fourth Ave., and was writing a collision report at 11:07 p.m. when he saw the shirtless Creach approaching with a flashlight in his left hand and a gun pointed downward in his right hand.
Hirzel said he repeatedly told Creach to drop the gun, but investigators could find no neighbors who heard any of that exchange. Only Creach’s wife, Imogene, reported hearing anything and she described what sounded like her husband yelling out in fear before the shot was fired.
Hirzel said Creach initially responded that he didn’t have to drop his gun, and mentioned that he had had problems with theft in the past. But Creach eventually put the gun in the back waistband of his pants.
Hirzel then ordered Creach onto the ground, but the older man refused. Hirzel couldn’t remember exactly when he called for backup, but said he struck Creach on the outside of the left knee. It’s then, Hirzel said, Creach reached for his gun.
“When, when I saw his hand go behind his back and come out with a gun, or the grip of the gun that I saw, there wasn’t a doubt in my mind that he was going to shoot me,” Hirzel, 42, told investigators, according to transcripts. “I, I don’t know why, but that’s what I was thinking.”
But Alan Creach said he has seen no documented effort by investigators to determine whether all of that activity – including Hirzel telling Creach to drop the gun about six times – could have occurred in a span of a few seconds between radio calls. Autopsy results also could not conclusively show that Creach was struck by a baton on his leg, and the pastor’s family questions the severe downward angle of the fatal shot.
“Based on what we know, from the time that Scott Creach left his bedroom it’s physically impossible for all of these things to occur,” Alan Creach said.
The timeline concern raised by the Creach family was one of the topics investigators were exploring on Tuesday, Tucker said.
The larger question, however, is “ ‘How can you justify killing a senior citizen who comes out to investigate what he perceives to be a theft in progress?’ ” Alan Creach said. “What we have tried to articulate from the beginning is that they have to deal with the community from a perspective of integrity, even if it looks bad for the department.”
Chris Bugbee, who worked as a deputy prosecutor under Tucker, said the lack of eyewitnesses is problematic in this case.
“When a prosecutor looks at a case, very rarely do you know exactly what the facts are,” he said. “That’s of particular problem in this case because Mr. Creach is not here. But the first thing you have to look at is self-defense laws. (Hirzel) has a right to protect himself.”
If he decides to bring charges, Tucker has a range of homicide charges to choose from, including first- and second-degree murder, Bugbee said. Both require that a person intended to kill another person, but prosecutors must show that the killer planned the killing – even if for just a moment in time – to file a charge of first-degree murder.
If Tucker doesn’t believe that he can prove to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that Hirzel committed either of those two crimes, he could move to justifiable homicide, such as killing someone in self-defense.
Manslaughter and excusable homicide charges would not apply, Bugbee said, because manslaughter is charged when a person unintentionally kills another. An example of excusable homicide would be that the killer was not mentally able to determine right from wrong at the time of the killing, he said.
“If an officer gives you a command, you are technically bound to comply,” Bugbee said. “A failure to comply wouldn’t necessarily justify an officer to claim self-defense and certainly not necessarily to use deadly force. Failure to comply rarely leads to a homicide, despite what many in our community believe.”
Sweetser generally agreed, saying that prosecutors must be able to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Hirzel did not fear for his life to charge him criminally for Creach’s death. Self-defense is available even if the person is mistaken about the perceived threat, he said.
“We have to prove lack of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt … based on what it appeared to the person using the force,” he said. “You start by looking for something inconsistent with what the person was saying.”
But with no eyewitnesses and Creach dead, “that makes it challenging. If I was going to guess, there may not be enough for criminal charges,” Sweetser said. “But that doesn’t mean there isn’t enough for a civil case.”
Closing Geiger: Wise or worrisome? 
liarsinnews on January 15 at 8:57 a.m.
And to think the voters reelected Steve Tucker to office. The voters deserve what they get. A guy spending his time at the 19th hole imbibing in the grape.
misjustice on January 15 at 9:09 a.m.
“You start by looking for something inconsistent with what the person was saying.”
From what I read of the interviews with Hirzel, there were inconsistencies with what he said to investigators. However, I fully expect for Tucker to exonerate Hirzel; leaving the Creach family to seek redress in civil court.
lewis8457 on January 15 at 9:47 a.m.
We all know how this will turn out another screwed up one-sided investigation with a sole purpose to prove the cop was in the right.
Like Tucker said at the start of all this the tax paying public has no civil liberty rights in the State of Washington. Our fine state legislator decided to pass a law that says a person has to follow a police instructions even if the police are in the wrong. So basically Otto Zehm had no rights to defend himself, and none of us have that right either.
I get a kick how the big bad cops that kill, always run to the self-defense free ticket out of jail card. Look at twinkle toys Olson running down a street firing bullets at a running figure screaming self defense self defense.
An ex cop on KXLY recently told a Creach off spring his father deserved to die. Through all this we have seen that the police really do despise the people they are to protect and are really only in it for the money, and the power high.
And the unions with Verners caring hand have run beyond their normal scope and now want to rule the world. at some point though they will get awake up call when their revenue streams dry up as people get sick of it and move away from Washington State the police State.
Land of the free just not in Spokane
lewis8457 on January 15 at 9:50 a.m.
dick i really think our local official voting is rigged here in Spokane who in their right mind would have voted for tucker besides the cops?
Even my fathers age bracket voted against Tucker this time and the SOB still got back in.
Just like Gregoire who the heck would vote for her twice? When she first took office we had a rainy day fund now we are 8 billion in the hole.
Orphan on January 15 at 9:55 a.m.
Let me see tell the truth and go to jail or lie and continue your life. Creaches gun did not have a round in the chamber why would he try to shoot an officer with an unloaded gun.
How about we let a jury decide, it would be money well spent IMO.
We need to insist on a Grand Jury being pulled from the public every time there is serious misconduct from law enforcmemnt and let a Grand Jury decide to prosicute or not. This buddy buddy system is not working, if anything it is causing the public to not trust law enforcement even more than they already dont.
hunternomore on January 15 at 10:07 a.m.
Wake up people. Anyone else following a similar case being reported in The Seattle Times? Officers know the “buzz words” they need to employ to make sure they don’t get charged. This officer wasn’t even in uniform and in all probability didn’t identify himself either. Etc. etc. etc.
misjustice on January 15 at 10:45 a.m.
Here we go again!!!!!!!!!
misjustice on January 15 at 11:16 a.m.
I agree with Orphan; we need some type of citizen review in cases such as the Creach homicide. And I agree that the current system of review does little to foster trust, on either side of the aisle.
And yes, Gramms, here we go again!!!
Cheezwhiz on January 15 at 11:58 a.m.
Seems to me that Hirzel’s testimony is suspect. Evidence points to execution and lies. If there are inconsistencies, why aren’t there charges? The extreme downward angle, no round in the chamber, no bruising on Creach’s knee, gravel impressions on Creach’s knees, etc. Looks like a cover up and sweep under the rug again. Just like all the police controversies.
How many times should we put up with police murders and DUI’s, only to have them be justified and the officer reinstated? It’s almost humorous. Are we in WA State, going to be a laughing stock for the rest of the World?
Maybe we should form a group that demands justice, or at least public investigations from a independent party. Obviously nothing will happen when the wolves are investigating the bears. Police investigating the police, prosecuting attorney is a former cop.
I wonder how much of the evidence disappeared. Why wasn’t there any dash cam footage or audio? Not surprising. Why wasn’t there any camera footage from the Plant Farm, when they had operating cameras? What happened to the neighbor who allegedly heard the confrontation? Was he/she paid off or threatened? Oddly, he or she just disappeared.
In my opinion, police should be held to a much higher standard than citizens. Orphan has summed up the obvious and necessary solution that will make the citizens trust those who are supposed to protect us. A jury should be able to decide what was justified and the public shouldn’t have to take the word of the wolves, about what happened.
I can no longer trust the system, and I wonder how long the rest of the public will have trust, when so many blatant crimes are committed by police and they are excused and always keep their jobs. There are no laws for police. That needs to change.
soccermomsusie on January 15 at 12:15 p.m.
Thomas Clouse when he says, “In principle, it seems clear that a 74-year-old pastor on his own property should not die as a result of an encounter with law enforcement, as Wayne Scott Creach did in August.” is right!
If this had been a minority, a younger person, or someone whose job was not preaching we would totally understand, but it wasn’t!
Good Pastor Creach stopped many a bad guy and others by threatening them with his pistol, just like Jesus would have if He had access to firearms (Bloody Romans!).
No matter what the outcome of this trial, I take solace that the Spokesman-Review continues to deliver unbiased, easy to digest evidence to bolster their point of view and that right now, Pastor Creach and Jesus are shooting Satan in the butt with AK-47s and are loving every minute of it!
PROTECT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!!!
HEAR OUR VOICE!!!!!
Liberty_Bell on January 15 at 12:37 p.m.
Oh yes self-defense when the officers trespassing on private property then murders the owner, what a concept in Violation of both state and federal statute, confusing Spokane Olympia and those officers who couldent get a job in the real world!
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/color_of_law
Liberty_Bell on January 15 at 12:42 p.m.
Of course never forget the Ku Kux Act of 1871, 42 USC 1983, with the Court still in a left coast training session, over a hundred years later.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-350.pdf
misjustice on January 15 at 1:16 p.m.
“What happened to the neighbor who allegedly heard the confrontation? Was he/she paid off or threatened? Oddly, he or she just disappeared.”
That’s right! Who’s to say the Creach family hasn’t paid off that neighbor saying they will get a portion of the profits from a lawsuit against the city? Was he/she promised something by the family & not law enforcement?
Also, many of you state he was a Preacher and the S-R runs unbiased reporting. Well, it’s not unbiased. Creach was a member of an Idaho group that was pretty much run out of a neighboring state several years ago. Every time I have posted this information someone at S-R has deleted it. As I’m sure they will do again, but not before a few read this posting. How do I know he was a member? Well, that’s irrelevant, but I know he was.
“……just like Jesus would have if He had access to firearms ”
That is a ridiculous statement. Jesus was all about peace & not firearms & violence.
One last thought: It’s always the same people, week after week, story after story, cutting down law enforcement. Whether it’s defense or prosecuting attorney’s, country or city law enforcement, & or judges. After a while it just gets really old to listen to & I begin to feel as if it’s the kid crying wolf. No one hears or cares what you say anymore because your story never changes.
Yes. I will defend them. Someone has to & I’m glad they are out there doing their jobs. If they weren’t, we would have more Tuscon shootings or one like I have posted below & not some crazy person just aiming at elected officials.
Officer Christopher Matlosz, 27, was gunned down in a cold-blooded execution-style murder while on patrol. At 4 pm, Officer Chris Matlosz was patrolling, making his rounds in a residential development when he came up to a male subject on foot and he stopped his patrol car and they began to talk.
It was a seemingly friendly exchange from witnesses. All of a sudden, with no provocation, the assailant took two steps back and opened fire on the officer while he was still seated in his vehicle. It happened so fast that the officer never got his weapon unholstered. Chris was hit three times. The Cop Killer fled the scene on foot. 911 calls came in immediately from witnesses that say the exchange and execution. Ofc. Matlosz was transported to the hospital where he was pronounced dead just thirty minutes later.
SLEO on January 15 at 1:33 p.m.
Gramma - “Creach was a member of an Idaho group that was pretty much run out of a neighboring state several years ago”.
What group exactly? You know you are not telling the truth and maybe that is why your posts are getting deleted. How you know the information is important because if it’s factual you are not afraid to say. These things are easy to check out. So if you are telling the truth - please present your evidence. We are all waiting with bated breath.
Whoever you are - you have zero idea about this case except in your own mind. The neighbors have definitely NOT disappeared. Just because you haven’t heard anything recently, means nothing.
And what does the case you have commented on have to do with this case? We all know that officers are gunned down and killed without justification or provocation and we are all saddened when it happens. But that does not mean that occasionally officers mess up and a citizen is killed without provocation by that officer - in fact, we’ve had evidence of that very thing in recent months. That is also a sad and tragic event.
So Gramma, your bias and hatred is showing through. Makes me wonder who you really are. So here’s the challenge - put or shut up.
SLEO on January 15 at 1:34 p.m.
To Gramma - that would be “put up or shut up”.
Cheezwhiz on January 15 at 1:53 p.m.
Golly Gramma!!! First of all, what kind of fool would bet on anyone winning a civil suit against the police in Spokane after every cop has been cleared of any wrong doing, no matter how obviously illegal it was. Shonto Pete was unarmed and running from a drunk cop when he was shot in the back of the head. The cop won the lawsuit.
What difference does it make if Mr. Creach was involved in any particular organization? How many cops were members of that organization? I bet there were many. Doesn’t mean he should have been executed. Doesn’t mean Hirzel had the right and duty to execute him.
Does one cop being murdered make a vendetta for all other cops? Nope. The Lakewood shooting did though. Strangely you didn’t mention what state that happened in or if there was dash cam footage from it. I suppose I can Google it myself to get the real story and all the information.
Why don’t you post about the local police shootings/murders? Because there haven’t been any, other than the cops committing the murders. Again, you have danced around the facts like Ginger Rogers. Sweet moves, Gramma! You still got it! I’m guessing you aren’t a grandma. I’ll guess that you are a spokesperson for the SPD. I see that most of your posts are defending police or condemning criminals before their trial or any evidence is publicly released. You even have the audacity to defend the cop who got the hit and run DUI and was reinstated. How can anyone find that acceptable?
Hmmm, condemn criminals and defend police who commit hit and run DUI’s or murders. Hypocritical and suspect! Got a touch of Alzheimers? As long as they have a badge, they are right and good, right?
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 2:34 p.m.
The vitriol here is palpable, and for good reason. What we have here is failure to communicate (“Cool Hand Luke”). The failure (potentially) of Hirzel to commuincate with a private property owner why he as on their property near midnight in an unmarked car. I see here a very dangerous situation. We just saw a citizen blow away 6 people, including a federal judge and a member of congress, still alive after a bullett in the brain. I see a grave danger, specifically in Spokane, that some crazy nutball might take umbrage(umb/RAGE) at Tucker and cops in general and do something unthinkable. When you see Olson rewarded for shooting Shonto Pete in the head while running away by a drunken off duty cop…while you see the man who killed Otto Zehm (Karl Thompson) getting away with it and being promoted to chief trainer of deadly force response tactics…when you see Hirzel, about to be cleared for killing a beloved Pastor and Radio show host…. I see a very dangerous situation for communal outrage. In fact, I would think that the same fear might be clear in the minds of Karl Thompson and Brian Hirzel. We all recall how amazed the community was when OJ Simpson was acquited when everybody knew he did it. It seems to me that a similar outrage is smoldering deep below the surface of a Spokane populace. Once again, it looks like a police officer will get away with killing in a very questionable case where the only truth might have died alongside Pastor Creach.
Why can we not give Hirzel a lie detector? (we know why)
Police do that with those they investigate…why does Hirzel not volunteer for a lie detector?
Spokane needs a federal investigation into OIS and regional police matters.
{or}
Spokane needs a “Special Investigator” to look into why it is that Steve Tucker Never Tries Cops. (hmmm)
Tony Bamonte has been working on this for years now, and he is a respected former sheriff and a famous author. Could the lack of charges be caused by the fact that Tucker is a former cop himself?
*{OF COURSE}* The fox and the henhouse come to mind. Wolves and Bears, etc. as expressed above. There is a very serious problem brewing in this tempestuous teapot. The water is boiling over….. and the blood is boiling in families like…
Creach
Zehm
Yohe
Dodd
Pete
Sichiro
…and many others.
We can only hope there is no vigilante(s) considering action against Thompson and Hirzel and Torok, but this community has had it up to the gills with both Tucker, who is widely disrespected in the legal community…and also the Police Guild, which Never EVER admits mistakes. We must make sure another situation like Officer Christopher Matlosz DOES NOT HAPPEN. If it ever did, the blood would be dripping down the drooling chin of Steve Tucker and cops who refuse to admit that *Creach should be alive.*
*Otto Zehm should be alive.*
*Quentin Dodd should be alive.*
*Trent Yohe should certainly be alive.*
Google it yourself. There is an epidemic.
Look at www.PortlandCOPWATCH.org
Look at www.SpokaneCOPWATCH.com
Look at what has happened in Seattle and New Mexico.
MOST Cops are heroic. They risk their life every day. But there are bad cops …. and cops who make mistakes. When they do make a mistake, it must be investigated by an objective outsider.
NOT A FELLOW “BROTHER”.
Cheezwhiz on January 15 at 2:38 p.m.
Gramma! Look what I found! http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110115/ap_on_re_us/us_officer_killed . Looks like there is another murder a brewin! The cops will never take him alive!!!! (Because they don’t want him to be alive) Maybe I’m psychic, but I have a vision that the suspect will put up a fight and lethal force will be needed to protect the officers and public. How ironic that it’s another cop from a completely different Lakewood? Pretty wild that the police just barge into homes with guns drawn and no warrant. Once again…. Above the law.
misjustice on January 15 at 2:48 p.m.
I won’t say where I got my info. Kind of like the person that tells the reporter & the reporter keeps that person’s name confidential. I posted the name of the group & that name kept getting deleted. Maybe the SR needs to do a bit more research. And do some research on your own. It’s out there.
The majority of the people/officers you keep claiming has “murdered” people have been cleared of any wrong doing. Either by a jury or an official review board. Also, I never said it was acceptable about the DUI, just that the city/county did the right thing because that’s what the law says to do. That’s how I find it acceptable.
You ask about what that one case I posted has to do with this one? Just making a point about how innocent officers get killed every day in the line of duty, but according to most here, that’s okay for an officer to sit still & be murdered. Just just hurt anyone else in the meantime??? Absurd.
The killing took place yesterday in NJ. A seemingly innocent conversation taking place, non-confrontational and an officer gets killed. Very sad.
Cheezwhiz on January 15 at 2:54 p.m.
Gramma on January 08 at 11:33 a.m.
I was a Realtor for 20 years. Drove my car every day. Have been driving since I was 17 & have NEVER had an accident or ticket. I was, and am, a responsible adult that takes seriously what the laws state. The only time I have been behind bars is while in college I took a class trip to the mens & womens prisons in Missouri. Didn’t like what I saw & vowed not to ever be in a position to have to live there.
But, I will defend the officer. What he was doing in his off time should not result in his firing. You say there are plenty of jobs in ‘this’ town that would fire you from your position if you got a DUI. Please name those jobs & be specific. The charge of leaving the scene of an accident was dropped. Therefore it is as if it never happened. So, this man is doing what the judge ordered him to do & it’s not up to your boss to tell you that’s not enough. Even if it is the chief or mayor.
So, therefore he will get his job back. He will get his back pay. It will save taxpayers 4 million dollars. Lessons learned by everyone involved?
If you want to change things, then put it in their contracts that ANY DUI conviction will get you fired.
Gramma on January 08 at 9:55 a.m.
Since when does law enforcement have to have different laws than those they serve & protect?
Would any other person that had a hit & run & a DUI while not on the job be fired from their job? No, I think not. So why would you think this man should have been fired? What if it was a mailman? Would he be fired from his delivery job (after all he drives a government car also)? What about a school bus driver that was at a Christmas function & not on the job? Should that person lose their job (After all they are driving our children around. Don’t you want our children safe)?
Laws don’t — & shouldn’t — differentiate because of professions. Get over it.
Besides, dealing with idiots (like some of those on this site) every day should give them a pass to drink when off duty!!!
SLEO on January 15 at 3:03 p.m.
Gramma - you are right - it is sad. But that gives you no right to slander a dead man. I still say show your proof that Mr. Creach was a member of the organization that you mention. You won’t because you CAN’T. Again I say - put up or shut up. If you have that kind of proof, why haven’t you taken it to the media. I know why - because they would research it out and know you are not telling the truth. You don’t think that if what you are saying is true that the SPD would already have it in the official report … give me a break!
Give us all a break … either tell the truth or find something else to talk about!
Liberty_Bell on January 15 at 3:15 p.m.
Granny?
Did you miss your sunday school bus too?
“Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.”
Alexander Hamilton
FEDERALIST #15 DEFECTS OF THE CONFEDERATION…
:”If there is no penality annexed for disobedience, the resolution or commands which preserve to be the laws will, in fact amount to nothing more than advice or reccommendation…
Jesus, also said; use your brain, unless your on the SPD!
Liberty_Bell on January 15 at 3:22 p.m.
Granny,
did you go to the State School District?
Washington State is an OPEN CARRY STATE, that could ONLY confuse the SPD!
“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government”
— Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
“The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good”
— George Washington
“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”
— Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
“Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.”
— Mahatma Gandhi
empyrius on January 15 at 3:38 p.m.
Jesus sure did tell his boys to buy a sword, and when agents of the state came to take Jesus away Jesus told Peter to sheathe that sword and allowed himself to be taken into custody; he even healed the soldiers ear (“what, am I leading a rebellion”; even against the evildoers: NOT!).
Jesus died for his beliefs but did not kill for his beliefs!
Jefferson: guns to protect oneself from the government.
Washington: mis-attributed quote.
Hamilton: shot dead in a gunfight (o vanity, vanity).
Mahatma: daughter of the perfector of peaceful revolution (who was shot dead).
pax vobiscum
greyhound2 on January 15 at 3:40 p.m.
Whatever. The 79 year old flower child, pastor and business owner is dead. Over a misunderstanding or quick nerves?
Sell that one.
Liberty_Bell on January 15 at 3:41 p.m.
Ever Live in Washington Granny? You should have rode that state school bus and not have missed that sunday school bus either.
PREAMBLE
We, the people of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this constitution.
ARTICLE I
DECLARATION OF RIGHTS
SECTION 1 POLITICAL POWER. All political power is inherent in the people, and governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and are established to protect and maintain individual rights.
Protect and Maintain Individual Rights???
GRANNY you obviously missed the Sunday School Bus too!
“And from thencefore Pilate sought to release him; but the Jews cried out…And Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross, And the writing was JESUS OF NAZERETH THE KING OF THE JEWS…in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. Then said the chief Priest to Pilate, Write not The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews…”
Pilate ansewered What I have written, I have written…
Tucker, just another jewish lawyer, explained to perfection, October 1810, Jefferson to Madison…congrats on the death of Cushing…with a whole lot of notions of his own.
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 3:57 p.m.
I am not a Jew. I am kinda like one though….
I guess I am ….”Jew~ish” …. (Dane Cook, 2005)
The above might be offensive to some{ADL}
FYI.
valleyman on January 15 at 4:54 p.m.
You people are all crazy… Get a grip and pull yourselves together.
There is a lot of foolish things being said and I KNOW you weren’t there as a witness. The reality is you don’t know and you think you do.
The more that comes out the crazier you sound.
Hirzel is not going to be charged because there is no way based on what has come out that anyone can prove he didn’t feel threatened. End of story.
Now commence calling me names.
BitofBacon on January 15 at 5:09 p.m.
I think most of the people here need to get unwound around the axles and save it for next week when Tucker doesn’t charge Hirzel.
maria on January 15 at 5:43 p.m.
They said the Tucson shooting suspect posed in a red G-string holding his Glock over his junk.
I have to wonder if he ordered that G-string from Hirzel’s sex shop.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
valleyman on January 15 at 5:57 p.m.
Maria… You are messed up. Way to mix and match your stories as they suit you…
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 6:11 p.m.
BaconBits and ValleyCop need to holster their verbs.
The community is outraged Dan, and you know exactly why.
Jim, after decades you should know the same.
The only witness was killed by Hirzel.
I am not using the word MURDER, but
the good people of Spokane are righteously
indignated. There are too many questions about
too many cases.
Here are three litmus questions for Torok/Thompson/Hirzel/Nicks.
1) Do Police EVER MAKE MISTAKES? (yes, humans…Being)
2) Do Police protect their own? (yes, humans….Being)
3) Are many innocent people dead? (yes, humans….DEAD)
Now, are there extenuating circumstances? Of course.
The two Police who comment here under various names are Dan Torok and Jim Nicks (Ryan Pitts can verify this).
Does Torok and/or Nicks realize how this endangers them and the community both, when cops blog in the tone of “Neener, Neener…Neener…Tucker will cover our butters”. Do you guys have any semblance of a clue that the community is up in arms? You guys are supposed to protect and defend, not assault and assuage. Dan…Jim…When you guys get on here and cajole outraged citizens who knew and loved Creach and others, do you not realize you are creating a monstrous rage? If not, you feed into the theory that most cops were high school losers who need to compensate for unkown shortcomings with guns and steroids. The average IQ of a cop is ?????? Before you guys post another pompous and aloof blogpost, think about the families who read this every day and night. Ernie and Alan Creach have every right to be upset at you and every cop in the city/county…which is unfair to the 90 percent who do an admirable and great job.
Just think about that gentlemen. (Treppeidi posts too)
PS - Maria, fellow Seinfeldian….That was funny (-:
eagle on January 15 at 6:23 p.m.
SLEO, you and Gramma need to calm down. I’ve done the research as you have requested and now know the name of the North Idaho organization that G- Ma must be refering to. It goes all the way back to a membership Creach held for about two years from 1956-1958. He served as an active leader in that organization at that time. It is an organization with ties back to the deep south and was led by a young energetic college educated war veteran by the name of Frank Barnes. Barnes later had to leave that organization when he took a decidedly controversial stand against a labor union that had resorted to blowing up buildings in the towns in the surrounding area. The organization is First Baptist Church Kellog which is affilliated with the Inland Empire Assc. which in turn is affiliated with the Northwest Baptist Convention, which in turn is affilliated with the highly controversial Southern Baptist Movement that reportedly continues to claim that Jesus has risen from the dead and has the power over sin and death. Creach never got over that experience and went on to become a Baptist pastor for over 45 years. The above mentioned organizations are the only organizations that he was an active member of, other than membership in other churches where he served. He did contribute heavily to those organizations. Financial records indicate that he gave in excess of $100,000 a year toward the work of the gospel and local missions, and had for at least the last 20 years. Although there are no records to indicate it 100’s of people throughtout the Spokane area claim he was far more generous than just that and he financially helped them out of his own pocket though their hard times. There is no record of him ever belonging to any typical charitable organizations. It would be fair to say that he put his money where his mouth is, and for any who sat in on his preaching they would all collectively say the message for those years was consistent. The message, “Jesus Saves, anyone” In my research these are the only organizations that I can find that he belonged to except for a few trade organizations related to his business like, Farm Bureau and Oh, of course the Republican Party as well as the NRA.
valleyman on January 15 at 6:48 p.m.
See what I mean tatas? You just can’t help yourself…
I find it laughable you think it’s ok to berate law enforcement but then make the charge they have no right to get on here and post because it “endangers them and the community.”
That’s an awfully bold and DANGEROUS statement of your own. Just how exactly does it endanger anyone, other than placing in jeopardy the clearly crazed comments some of you make. I’m still bemused you and several others on here think I am a cop…
Keep lobbing your incendiary comments and keep playing the know-it-all… If you had the evidence you claim, it would be out in public, and clearly you don’t.
Having said that, for the moment, I have nothing else to add…
maria on January 15 at 7:02 p.m.
Whatever, Valleygirl
SLEO on January 15 at 7:03 p.m.
Valleyman - “I have nothing else to add…” thank goodness for the small favors in life.
Eagle - Thank you for your excellent research. If your findings are off the mark, I trust that Granny will let us all know.
Granny - If you have different information, we eagerly await your enlightenment.
And we will all continue to wait for Mr. Tucker . . .
eagle on January 15 at 7:07 p.m.
No prob SLEO, Granny won’t find anything because I never say anything I can’t prove with facts from multiple sources. I will venture to say if Tucker dodges the Tuesday date he’ll most likely be retaggged as Steve Ducker by some members of the media
maria on January 15 at 7:07 p.m.
tatas, We won’t let them win….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjBwAYIxUso
empyrius on January 15 at 7:14 p.m.
I saw your shout out at me on the thread that was closed the other day valleyman: thank you.
Peace
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 7:16 p.m.
The Spokesman-Review (Pitts) and the US Attorney (Durkin) know the information. Tim Durkin knows, so why don’t you give him a call Monday morning, Dan/Jim, whomever.
There is nothing incendiary by asking you to be respectful of the Creach family, and your tone is rather dismissive “Dan”. Or is it “Jim”…..or even the rare RockyPost? It does not really matter. What does matter is that the police are poorly represented by their so-called leaders. Wuthrich and Kirkpatrick. It is not a clear cut case in the Creach matter because the witness was shot in the chest with a downward bullett. There is a massive amount of data that points to what will never be proven. I notice you did not address the lie detector for Hirzel. I suppose that is just a mere oversight. Lie Detectors are given to perps every day. How about a cop taking one for a change? That would make the public stand up and cheer. Many of the police I know are frustrated by this whole scenario. 2 of those police even told me they wish they did not have to wear the uniform because people look at them differently. These are two of the finest individuals you could ever know. They are gentle with kids and give out those cute little badges all the time. They sheepishly admit that there are “a few cases” that are “not so clear cut”. That was the most I could get. I feel badly for all the good cops. Hirzel and Thompson make them look really bad. It would be really interesting to be a fly on the wall when they get therapy, which they almost certainly are doing frequently these days. (one would hope). “Something is rotten in Denmark”, and for the moment, Dan & Jim, you very well should have NOTHING to add. Be respectful of the dead. Especially those killed by your “buddies in blue”. (any guess as to whether Spokane Police have a problem with Steroids?…Geeee….Maybe?) And what is the result of steroids? You guessed it.
valleyman on January 15 at 7:27 p.m.
No prob Empyrius, you’re one of the few who deserve one on here…
lewis8457 on January 15 at 7:31 p.m.
Really Bits-O-bacon is really Dan Torok who wrote on a blog a few years back that just because the police kill us in an arrest doesn’t mean we weren’t guilty of something. Mr. kill em where they stand is the great Dan Torok?
No wonder he knows so much about The Otto Zehm killing he was there sitting on Otto’s chest. Yes and then two weeks later the great Torok, killed a transient in cold blood. Got away with it of course.
What does it feel like killing a citizen and then going home and not caring at all just smoke a bowl snort a line inject some heroin and your ready for another day at the SPD.
the big guy that helped kill my buddy is a tough cookie for sure just as soon kill you then look at you. Just the kind of person i want my kidding running to if they need help. Could you be Kivaari on KXLY he has a the same attitude as you and your buddies have you can kill at will and if it gets tough you can scream self defense while you help each other put on your nylons a stiletto heels.
Big cop hiding behind a alias “quack” big cop hiding “quack”
valleyman on January 15 at 7:31 p.m.
Tatas: I will categorically state for you right here, I am not Jim, Dan, Rocky, Brian, or anyone else who’s been in the news.
The rest of your comment is a red herring since your premise rests on my being one of these ” bad cops.”
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 7:42 p.m.
Well…GOLLY..That just solves everything. Does the word simpleton go flying above your head, or was I obtuse. And I am only saying that they post often and your use of certain phrases matches their forensics in a very specific way. And Comcast IP info is very easy for the feds to get. They simply ask, and we already have the proof that Nicks and Torok blog. The real question is whether Hirzel and his wife do. Now that would be an extra slice of evidence the jury would love to hear about, but that will never happen with Tucker the Ducker. And if you really are not a cop, why not state your name, to either all of us or to Pitts and the Spokesman. They know exactly who I am, and so does Tim Durkin, who’s a friend of my family. We speak with Ozzie about these complicated issues frequently. SO, put up or shut up. Shall you give us your name? Or does this middle aged woman scare the big bad man with all his bluster? I am guessing that we will hear nothing but crickets.
BTW<thanks maria=”“>, my husband and I both LOVE the band “Crowded House”. Great song! (I love it when you find YouTube classics with the lyrics attached…..fond memories of my sophomore year in college)
valleyman on January 15 at 7:59 p.m.
Take your crickets and eat them lady… I don’t owe you anything especially my name. You think you come from some position of authority because you can name drop, well bully for you.
The FBI has no legal reason to go searching out IP addresses especially mine unless all those crazy right wingers are right about people like you…
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 8:00 p.m.
Hey Maria, did you know Joan Jett is in Spokane tonight? (NQ)
I love the music of the 80s. Hopefully Valley”Man” will chill(-:
maria on January 15 at 8:20 p.m.
tatas, I did not know that. I live down in Tensed, ID and they shelter us from that kind of evil-entertainment news.
They won’t win!
Here are voice!
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 8:28 p.m.
MARIA….i just heard a voice called MARIA (-:
Listen to those beautiful Crickets with ValleyMan gone!
Let’s party like it’s 1999.
VM “Beat It” hehehehe
bszottlinger on January 15 at 8:37 p.m.
What is a Freepository?
maria on January 15 at 8:45 p.m.
“How do you solve a problem like MARIA?”
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 8:45 p.m.
A FreePository?
Is that the only free thing@Starbucks?
“When you make a deposit in the toilet”?
HEY…shall I post a Picture or Video from Joan Jett?
Does that violate any policy of the Spokesman or Jett???
Or Northern Quest??? Hmmmmmm.
maria on January 15 at 8:46 p.m.
“How do you hold a moon-beam in your hand”
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 8:59 p.m.
Once your a Jett, your a Jett til the Debt, Your Joan Jett til the die…ing…daayyyyyy {ShowTunes from Broadway!}
(OMG, people might be barfing now) The men have left the building now that we’re doing show tunes(-:
OK…Quick, turn to OPRAH !! (football is over, right?)
bszottlinger on January 15 at 9:05 p.m.
I agree with Mr. Bugbee and Mr. Sweetser that it does appear it would be very difficult to charge murder in this case, unless there was evidence that Deputy Hirzel was in the process of committing a crime on the property. The report does not establish any evidence that Hirzel was. However it does not appear that any investigative effort was made to determine if that was or was not the case. Although it is extremely rare, some officers do commit crimes while on duty ranging from petty theft to even more serious illegal conduct and it is import to make an effort to establish whether or not anything nefarious did take place.
The most common finding in an OID is Justifiable Homicide and in the vast majority of cases the evidence is available to substantiate such a finding. In my opinion a finding of Justifiable Homicide would be difficult to explain in this case as there are a number of inconsistencies in the evidence, as well as the statements of the witnesses and the officer. To make such a finding Mr. Tucker would have to take Deputy Hirzel at his word regarding all of the circumstances involving the shooting.
In this particular case I feel that it is important that the issue of Manslaughter not be overlooked and Mr. Bugbee and Mr. Sweetser seem to somewhat minimize the importance of considering that aspect. Is there any evidence that Deputy Hirzel did anything reckless, or criminally negligent during the encounter. We of course have his word that he did not, but what does the evidence show.
If the new CAD report ( Thanks to Mr. Wright) demonstrates an event sequence where in Deputy Hirzel fired the shot prior to calling in a “Code 6” and after a few seconds then called in “Shots Fired”, just exactly what does that mean? Does it mean Deputy Hirzel was trying to hide something or does it mean something else.
I wonder what the video taped statements show regarding the baton strike demonstration. I would assume Mr. Tucker’s office has reviewed those. In the Deputy’s first statement he “buckled” Mr. Creach, in his next statement, after the lack of evidence on Mr. Creach’s knee was made public, it was a very weak strike. Why would Deputy Hirzel through his gloves and CPR mask away?, and on, and on.
Is there a possibility the Deputy is trying to cover up an unintentional discharge? I hope that isn’t overlooked. It wouldn’t be the first time that’s happened.
Sure are a lot of questions here. I hope the following doesn’t mean this is the first time Mr. Tucker has read the report.
“Spokane County Prosecutor Steve Tucker is expected to announce his charging decision early next week. He said Friday, via e-mail, that he will review the report over the weekend but he is still waiting on the results of a meeting earlier in the week among Spokane police detectives”
bszottlinger on January 15 at 9:08 p.m.
BitofBacon:
I was going to save it for next week, but what the heck I wasn’t doing anything tonight. Hope you don’t mind.
bszottlinger on January 15 at 9:11 p.m.
Saveyourtatas:
I have no idea what it is, ask valleyman he should know. :)
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 9:31 p.m.
Good points all ZOTT,
The great tragedy of this case, and there are many in my mind, is that the only real justice, if any, will only come through a civil trial which has a lower threshold. One idea some have questioned is whether or not the laptop was examined to see for certain what it was, precisely, that Hirzel was doing at the moment in question. It is very unlikely that he was committing a crime, but the evidence leads one down some very unusual roads. The blood evidence, for example the pool of blood next to the body, that leads one to believe the body might have been moved prior to photographic evidence. This was uncovered by Detective Wright and the Creach family team as detailed in Ernie Creach’s first evidentiary email from way back. There are so many inconsistencies with Hirzels account that it really makes a seasoned investigator look at alternative avenues for explaining what exactly happened on the evening in question. Anybody who reads all 730 pages has to wonder, if this were a puzzle, why are there so many strange areas where the pieces do not fit. Hirzel might have been startled and mistakenly fired, then covered up later with the exculpatory call for “Code 6”. Then again, this could be a horrendous “Perfect Storm” of bad luck on the part of Creach where he had bad lighting and confronted what he thought would be yet another miscreant teen bent on vandalism. Instead he found a well armed officer, who might have also been startled and had bad light (flashlight in face?) I have not made my mind up for sure except for a few factors that simply cannot be overlooked. When all the evidence is in, then we know more, and I have been privvy to more than most since I have met the Creach family and I do communicate with Detective Wright. This is a tragedy, and to have it “Pooh-Pooh’d” as casually as ValleyMan does is really disheartening and disrespectful to the dearly departed Pastor. All cops deserve a fair hearing, but this case stinks to high heaven for any number of reasons.
NO COP SHOULD EVER INVESTIGATE ANOTHER COP
…when it comes to “OIS”…..
They can NEVER EVER be expected to be objective.
It needs to be scrutinized by experts that have no agenda or “Brotherhood” factor. This is a new way of thinking that really bothers police. The fact that we, the public, can no longer trust the police to police the police. They have proven it in many cities. Especially those cities that have a Tucker (a prosecutor prone to NOT CHARGE, likely caused by “Brotherhood”/former cop status. It just makes sense. Common sense.
bszottlinger on January 15 at 10:26 p.m.
Tatas:
Police have to investigate police, and it only makes sense from the standpoint of expertise. But they do have to be monitored and reviewed in some way so that the “Brotherhood” mindset doesn’t creep in, whether intentionally or unintentionally. The problem in Spokane is that there just isn’t any legitimate process for monitoring and reviewing.
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 10:52 p.m.
That is why SPARC exists. A number of citizens and coalitions came together, late last year, in order to solve this problem. I happen to think there is a good template down in Portland Oregon, where they have a three tiered apparatus for oversight. The infrastructure is very different from the Ombudsman.
S -Spokane
P -Police
A -Accountability &
R -Reform
C -Coalition
See www.PortlandCOPWATCH.org
also www.SpokaneCOPWATCH.com
15 Credible people like Tim Connor, Liz Moore, Mike Cronin, etc
valleyman on January 15 at 11:36 p.m.
Tatas:
This says it all for you doesn’t it:
“All cops deserve a fair hearing, but…”
Unless you train citizens like police, citizen oversight boards are useless wastes of times and energy and ruin many lives because they simply don’t get what a police officer goes through in a case like this and make rulings outside of reality/fact which are instead based on perception…
Clearly though, perception is good enough for many of ya’ll…
BitofBacon on January 15 at 11:53 p.m.
TaTas-it’s laughable that you think I am Jim Nicks. Also, why don’t you be first and let us know who you are? No, I don’t think you will. I think for tonight I will be Shambaza, King of the Ocean.
saveyourtatas on January 15 at 11:55 p.m.
That is why we think the perfect judge is a retired judge with a career of objectivity, which includes familiarity and expertise with high level investigations. To argue that “only a cop can investigate a cop” really defeats the point of “oversight”.
You say, “They smply don’t get what a police officer goes through”. (sounds like you might have some experience my friend(-: Can you be objective? Either you are a former cop, a current police officer, or you have a family or close friend…right?
Therein lies the rub. Automatic NON-Objectivity.
Who should judge Cops? NOT COPS….Judges.
And preferably retired judges with sterling records.
Career long records of fairness and astute attention
to detail. Again, the simple argument. A Jewish man
investigating another Jewish man will always look for the
good and not the truth. The same for a Catholic. The same
goes for a Chinese woman investigating a Chinese woman.
The same for a Cowboy fan investigating a Cowboy fan.
You see my point? Affinity groups always favor their affinity.
saveyourtatas on January 16 at 12:03 a.m.
BitofBacon, i believe you are Dan Torok. The phraseology and casual flippance fits the forensic verbal profile of Spokane’s most notorious and brutal cop. The only one, to my knowledge, that has killed twice in 5 years (maybe more???). I could be wrong…Only Ryan Pitts knows (and Durkin).
My identity is well known to the Spokesman and the US Attorney. As a matter of fact, I might be called as a witness in the Creach case. Ron Wright can verify me. Care to play the game Dan/Jim/Rocky/Whomever might be serving as their intermediary or “Spokesman” defender etc.
BTW, Detective Wright and Tony Bamonte will tell you I have
many friends who are Police. Many. (try me pal) Many of these interchanges might also be evidence when it comes to the civil trial and the “Tort” action. It will be controversial, but the archives of the Spokesman might force you out (-:
maria on January 16 at 12:27 a.m.
tatas, you go, kid! Let justice prevail!
saveyourtatas on January 16 at 12:31 a.m.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eGWSO1tC7s (Joan Jett)
…Live, 2 hours ago from Northern Quest casino….. (-:
Just for you Maria. (My husband helped me video)
At the end, you can hear me lose my formerly feminine voice
maria on January 16 at 12:39 a.m.
tatas! Awesome!
saveyourtatas on January 16 at 12:48 a.m.
I told my husband She might be the only woman I could be attracted to (“not that there’s anything wrong with that”) (-:
As you can see from the video, we were close (6th row)
My husband, who is a big and macho guy replied
“OK, then I get to do Clooney”
I laughed so hard. If you knew my husband, who is very tall and masculine….It was sooooo much fun. Time to lose my wages (-:
Northern Quest is a blast. JOAN JETT is 52, and yet she still looks hot. Like a model. Only 5 foot one. Powerhouse voice.
maria on January 16 at 1:47 a.m.
I’d pay to get to do Clooney. Hot, hot, hot!!!
empyrius on January 16 at 6:18 a.m.
If the police didn’t police themselves then they could not get away with murder . . .
And if citizens policed the police then the police would immediately contact their union; and once the guild is involved even God pauses!
valleyman on January 16 at 7:19 a.m.
Tatas: If we are to believe your “affinity” argument, then every jury trial in the history of this country is tainted since individual members of juries, at a minimum, share racial similarity and usually more “affinity” with the accused.
My conclusion is you watch way too much tv.
Police are as interested, and I would argue more so, of cleansing their own ranks of evil than your average group. If we use your argument, only bakers should investigate Wall Street since anyone with a financial background will have too much “affinity” for the Wall Streeters. The real problem then comes from no practical experience in an area they are investigating.
Retired judges lack forensic skills, they lack understanding of police procedures, they lack interviewing skills, they lack scene reconstruction skills, and most importantly they lack a lifetime of telling when they are being lied to. If you believe otherwise, again it is clear you have no understanding of our criminal justice system.
valleyman on January 16 at 7:24 a.m.
And Tatas: I will say this…If you are maybe going to be called as a witness in the Creach case, then you ought to watch not only what you blog but the tone in which you do it. Your clear pattern of disregard and contempt for law enforcement nor only exposes your real motives but could give any defense attorney worth their salt more than enough to impeach your objectivity as a witness.
Mr. Wright at least has enough sense to never get personal…
empyrius on January 16 at 7:33 a.m.
But valleyman it is an inherent contradiction for the police, or some “omsbudsman”, a lawyer on the taxpayer dole, to police themselves!
A “band of brothers” will not rat on their brother, or else that whistleblower will have made some very deadly enemies, and obviously thereafter be brotherless.
No. We must have a citizen, even an opponent, a “foe” even, who stands to gain, nor lose, anything (a government career etc.), be watching the watchers!
But letting the cops police themselves, let alone, God forbid, a lawyer of all persons, police the police guarantees injustice!
Present me the facts, that is all I need (unless all, or some, of the facts are withheld from me by the police!).
Peace
TheRoyLarsen on January 16 at 8:02 a.m.
Lewis is actually Carol Channing who has chosen to retire here in the Northwest.
lewis8457 on January 16 at 8:24 a.m.
TheRoy did you come up with that all by yourself or did your mommy help you. Now sit back and shut up big people are talking.
lewis8457 on January 16 at 8:42 a.m.
Dan Torok and Karl Thompson are bad eggs in the SPD where are all these good cops trying to get rid of them. They are a band of brothers to the end even if it means walking on the dead bodies of people they murder. And laughing at us for kicks.
I think Bits is Dan too just because the name matches him “Bits” meaning not all there.
What good is a citizen board going to be? We have a 100 thousand dollar a year ombudsman that can’t do anything.
Bits and valley man aren’t as bad as the nut on KXLY called Kivaari he told a Creach offspring the other day their father deserved to die. Says he is a retired cop but I think he is Hirzel, some of the things he says are out right lies but he thinks they are truth.
Is that the special training we all thought was weapons and dealing with people; instead it is really how to lie repeatedly and keep a straight face.
i can lie repeatedly and keep a straight face does that mean the city will pay me 100 grand?
eagle on January 16 at 8:52 a.m.
Valleyman I believe one of the issues the Creach’s have raised in the 733 pg document is the lack of qualified forensic review. Even Hammond speaks of its need but fails to pursue it other than attempting to explain how the blood field may have occurred. And as far as being lied to, that is what I continue to hear as an undercurrent in the major media outlets of this community, we as a whole believe that this one is just as others that have gone before, one big lie. We just don’t as a community know why yet. BSZ you raised a good question about a crime commited. I believe one of the major contentions of the Creach family is that the report is incomplete, in other words they must know of key evidence that they either shared or obtained that is not within the published report. The only way to ferret that out would be to see all their files or to see all the SPD and County files. The Creach files are protected by lawyer client priveledge but the LE files are subject to the PDR process which is how Wright has got his information, to my knowledge no one has PDR’ed the computer for independent analysis or any IO cell phone records.
misjustice on January 16 at 11:55 a.m.
Here we go again, folks…
While you were sleeping: Officer-Involved Shooting in North Spokane
http://www.kxly.com/news/26510539/detail.html
valleyman on January 16 at 11:56 a.m.
Empyrius: You bring ip a valid point but even an opponent must understand something of policy and procedure and how things work on the street or an equal injustice may be committed against the men and women in uniform. After all, keep your friends close but your enemies closer??
Eagle: the report may be incomplete but is there any way to fill in the gaps that only an eyewitness could??
bszottlinger on January 16 at 12:18 p.m.
Eagle:
That‘s among the issues that I have. Hirzel, as far as I can tell was never asked if he had a personal cell phone either. I am also now having trouble, since learning that the body was moved, as to why Deputy Hirzel would through away his gloves and CPR mask. Since they were not taken the night the incident took place we only have the Deputy’s word that they were not used.
I am very pro law enforcement, but when I see situations like this where law enforcement has again put themselves in a position to have many people including those knowledgeable in these areas questioning their actions and processes it makes me wonder what is going on.
It would serve the public well to read the reports of consultants the City of Spokane contracted to look into some of the issues involving the Police Department. I was amazed after reading them as to how poorly the department was managed. The Oct. 2006 report prepared by Police Practices Consulting which was hired to look into the firehouse underage girl mess, and citizen review panels really points out problems including handling of evidence, and the fact that Chief Nicks had no clue as to the handling IA cases. It doesn’t look like much has changed since 2006. The same firm was contracted to look into the Zehm case, but the review is on hold until the federal trial is complete. It should be a whooper, even though consultant reports are almost always nicety, nice.
Ron_the_Cop on January 16 at 1:03 p.m.
Valleyman,
Thanks for your comment. As folks may have noticed I’m not posting for the moment as I may later be called as an expert witness if a civil case is eventually brought.
I will say this the report as handed off to Tucker was incomplete. Any decision whether this was a justified shooting or not would be flawed based on the incomplete report.
Also dash cams would go a long way to quell the wild speculation that goes on when such an incident relies on the verbal accounts of those involved.
If Tucker issues an opinion in this case without seeking further investigation, he should be recalled. SPD has asked him several times if he needed more information and the answer was basically no.
Det. Ron Wright (Retired)
eagle on January 16 at 1:03 p.m.
BSZ if you read the report you would know that the cell phone was one of three items the Hirzel removed from the scene .As far as facts Valleyman, again I believe what I hear the Creachs’ saying is the facts are there in evidence and have not been included in the report or corrupted as in the case of the car. If you really want the facts PDR the stuff your self and start with what you know must be there but you see no mention of, case in point the time line. Thats what Wright did. And can anybody tell me what Hirzel is sayingh on the Dispatch call the first 3 seconds of his call. You can listen to it yourself on the KXLY site since it still is there. I know that 505 is the designator for the first officer on scene, Speer, and who is that that comes on and says “code that 99”
Ron_the_Cop on January 16 at 1:08 p.m.
Misjustice,
All I can say is WOW!
misjustice on January 16 at 2:13 p.m.
WOW! Indeed…
WTF is going on in this city????
empyrius on January 16 at 2:17 p.m.
“Keep your friends close and your enemies closer”: I hear that!
That is why felons who have been “rehabilitated”, me for example, should be supervising the police! I know firsthand they will break half of the ten commandments to get a “confession” (lesser evils serving the greater good and all …), and Lord only knows what they do behind closed doors!
Unaccountability, and the government investigating the government is the apogee of unaccountability!), can only lead to one thing:
Injustice.
maria on January 16 at 2:17 p.m.
Spokane’s solution to jail overcrowding?
ChefGus/ John Olsen on January 16 at 2:26 p.m.
There is a new post/string over on Community Comment Blog site…on this new Officer Involved Shooting… j
bszottlinger on January 16 at 4:33 p.m.
Eagle:
I’m not surprised the cell was something overlooked. Can you give me a page number?
I would also be interested to know what if any evidence was found on Mr. Creach’s trousers and slippers.
Valleyman:
Your position is that it is inappropriate for “Tatas” using an assumed name to post what you perceive to be a contempt for law enforcement, yet when I presented to you a hypothetical of Deputy Hirzel posting using assumed names and demonstrating utter contempt for the public, Sheriff, and the Sheriff’s wife, you indicated it was okay with you and it shouldn’t be used against him in any litigation because he obviously wanted to remain anonymous. How do you square that?
lewis8457 on January 16 at 5:37 p.m.
he squares it because he feels cops are always right and everyone else should keep their mouths shut and do as told. Or suffer the consequences. Which sadly in Spokane is your death.
valleyman on January 16 at 6:21 p.m.
Keep drinking the KoolAid Lewis…
eagle on January 16 at 9:19 p.m.
Sorry BSZ been to long since I read the report, I have read it all, more than once, did not memorize pg numbers. I am a believer in the PDR process and would suggest you use it. A better question, is how much information does Tucker have at his disposal and has he even looked at it all or is he relying on someone else to draw the conclusion and make a decision. That is where I believe the process is flawed. All the raw data in the world can be assimilated but if there is no staff to colate it and draw a conclusion then it is meaningless info. The fact that SPD did not draw a conclusion or highlight discrepancies puts the Prosecutors office at a numerical disadvantage when you think of all the cases that they are dealing with. To not make a recomendation virtually sidetracks a case into a dead end file. As far as the pants I am sure that the Creach family believes that there is valuable forensic information there that has not been developed. A PDR of the photos may be in order. In the published report there is virtually nothing said of Creachs pants. Hirzels pants had a few small drops of blood on them as well as blood on his gun and boots. The muzzle of his gun was about 4 feet from Creach when he shot according to the report. It makes his account highly questionable when you draw that line and put a gun on the end with a man holding it. Also the blood on Hirzels pants is inconsistent with his account but does match up with the forensic blood spatter on scene. All this is just more of the holes in this case, questions that have been asked but not answered by qualified experts in their field. And by the way I am very pro law enforcement as well, but I do not believe in protecting a man who has broken the law while tasked with upholding it. What that leads to is tyranny and the elimination of anyone who does not see things from the accepted viewpoint of the day.
bszottlinger on January 16 at 10:35 p.m.
Eagle:
I noticed in one of the recent reports that Detective Hammond was reviewing the crime scene photos as if looking for something besides the body movement, and documented the fact that he could not see blood on the slippers. This stuck me as very odd in that I would assume the slippers were submitted along with the pants for forensic exam and he would know whether or not there was blood present.
I could be wrong but I did not see in any previous reports there was any documentation of blood or other forensic evidence on the slippers or pants. This again struck me as odd because without question that evidence could help to establish the actual positions of the shooter and victim. I would be especially interested in the slippers. I noted Detective Hammonds reference to the blood on Hirzel’s clothing but nothing regarding the Creach clothing.
I have read quite a bit of the investigative reports (not all) and I have viewed some of the scene photos which I have some questions about. One of which is if Mr. Creach, as Deputy Hirzel stated, was reaching for the weapon in his back waistband with his right hand how did the weapon end up so far away from the body on his left side especially since according to Hirzel Mr. Creach went to his knees before falling back? I am having trouble with that as well as many other things.
bszottlinger on January 16 at 10:46 p.m.
Eagle:
Regarding reading the case reports, and remembering and understanding everything. I’m not the sharpest pencil in the box so in cases like this I had to read the file sometimes as many as 10 to 15 times before I was confident that I had an understanding of everything. Something I could never do in just a weekend. Mr. Tucker’s reading retention and understanding skills must be far superior to mine.
misjustice on January 16 at 10:46 p.m.
I’ve always thought that the initial “time line” was questionable. I’d be interested in viewing the more in depth “revised” time line.
And Brad; re the thread about the most recent LEO shooting, you stated that Lewis had enlightened you. Did you perhaps mean Kivaari?
bszottlinger on January 16 at 10:50 p.m.
Justy:
No Lewis, all of the responses to his comments give me a good idea of how SOME police officers feel about and deal with the public.
bszottlinger on January 16 at 10:52 p.m.
Not Kavaari! My friend Lewis
misjustice on January 16 at 10:57 p.m.
Oh, okay, I get it NOW…the responses to Lewis, not the comments by Lewis.
One of the points I was trying to make with my de-escalation post…
Good to read your posts…
; )
bszottlinger on January 16 at 10:59 p.m.
The only thing enlightening about Kavaari is that I gained an understanding that regardless of how much or how little experience one purports to have, there can be more than just one dull pencil in the box.
misjustice on January 16 at 11:04 p.m.
Kavaari is holding court over on KXLY, as usual. I don’t comment there, just read and shake my head. Their site is a little too rough and tumble for me; I have read some of your posts there. I like how you lure them in, with a question that you already know the answer to, then set the hook and real ‘em in!
Take care!
; )
misjustice on January 16 at 11:04 p.m.
ooops…real should have been reel…
; )
bszottlinger on January 16 at 11:08 p.m.
I’ve done that a few times in my career. :)
saveyourtatas on January 19 at 2:40 a.m.
Sad.
Kivaari on January 27 at 9:59 p.m.
You guys don’t play nice. It turns out that I don’t know employment laws. I couldn’t care less. But guess what, I was RIGHT about how this case went down. I guess this stupid, dull pencil, was correct about pretty much every detail. Funny, for being so obviously stupid, when I suggested the scenario before we had a chance to see the statements, that my speculation (labeled as such) was accurate. Where you guys all went wrong was you are convinced that Hirzel is a liar. So far nothing you can show me or more importantly the prosecutor has any evidentiary value. Let me get this straight. Hirzel thought he was in danger, he was greeted by an angry old man with a gun, and the old man died. Hirzel was cleared because he acted within the law and SOP. The only case you have is you are convinced he and the other officers are liars. Shame on you. Your Pal, the extraordinarily stupid, but right, Kivaari
Cheezwhiz on January 27 at 11:45 p.m.
Dear extraordinarily stupid Kivaari, (you said it, not me) Let me suggest a scenario with my speculation….. Civil court judgment! Big payout! Front page news, many times!
If you read the story and comments about the excessive force against Mr. Strange, you will see that there is NO SOP!!! No cop can possibly go outside of SOP, if it’s OK to “deviate from those guidelines.”
In Civil Court, the rules are different as far as what testimony and evidence is allowed. It will be proven that Hirzel is a liar. As a cop, you know that it’s legal and SOP to lie on a police report, or in your testimony. Just watch and see how Hirzel’s character is torn up.
Your pal, the extraordinarily bright and right, (and now psychic) Cheezwhiz