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October 24, 2011 in City
Zehm update: Judge declines to dismiss force charge
YAKIMA – Enough evidence of excessive force against Otto Zehm has been presented to let the case proceed, Judge Fred Van Sickle ruled today, rejecting defense arguments that one of the charges against Spokane police Officer Karl F. Thompson Jr. should be dropped.
Defense attorney Carl Oreskovich asked Van Sickle to dismiss the felony charge of using unreasonable force against Thompson because the government had failed to show it was a willful act or that Thompson used force with malice.
“It is clear that Mr. Zehm was resisting. It’s clear he was assaulting. It’s clear he wasn’t compliant,” Oreskovich said. “Even if there were head strikes … there is no indication that these injuries were delivered intentionally or with bad purpose.”
But Victor Boutros, trial attorney with the U.S. Justice Department, said the government has provided several witnesses who showed that Thompson used more force than necessary when he confronted Otto Zehm on March 18, 2006.
“The defendant’s admission (to Officer Tim Moses) that night of head strikes … shows he knew that night that he used deadly force,” Boutros said. “There is ample evidence that the defendant violated his training and lied afterwards to justify what he had done.”
Today for the first time, attorneys disclosed that Zehm had a water pistol in his jacket during the confrontation from which he later died. Since no witnesses ever saw the water pistol, the jury will not be told of its presence, the judge ruled.
The day started with notice by Assistant U.S. Attorney Aine Ahmed that the U.S. Marshals Service had arrested witness Angela Wiggins last week in California on a material witness warrant after she missed two flights to attend the trial in Yakima.
Ahmed said the trial progressed faster than expected. As a result, she was asked to come Oct. 19, which was an emotional day for Wiggins who previously lost a child on that day. Wiggins missed a second flight Thursday.
Wiggins was working for Zip Trip at the time of the incident. It was she who showed the video tape to Officer Sandy McIntyre and later to Sgt. Joe Walker.
Wiggins said McIntyre – who testified as a hostile witness on Friday and is facing her own investigation of obstruction of justice related to this case – changed her demeanor as she watched the initial meeting between Thompson and Zehm.
“She made the comment, ‘He didn’t lunge,’” Wiggins testified. “I remember that clearly because I didn’t understand what she was talking about.”
Boutros said in opening arguments that McIntyre spoke with Thompson after viewing the video and Thompson never again told investigators that Zehm lunged.
Oreskovich asked Wiggins why in three meetings with FBI prior to her grand jury testimony did she not remember that exchange. Wiggins said the FBI never asked her about the lunged statement.
Ahmed also asked Van Sickle to bar Spokane police witnesses from using the term robbery. And, he also asked to bar any reference to a statement that Officer Steven Braun Jr. gave investigators about Zehm acting like he was on methamphetamines.
“My concern is someone wanting to blurt that out,” Ahmed said. “If that comes out not pursuant to a question, I would ask the judge to consider that the door is open.”
Van Sickle previously ruled that Zehm’s innocence and toxicology report – which was clean – be barred from the trial. The judge said he would consider any unsolicited comments about Zehm being on drugs to “open that door.”
Ahmed also asked to be able to query police witnesses if they say they believe they were responding to an attempted robbery “there was nothing” about a robbery on 911 transcripts or computer dispatch. The call came out only as a suspicious circumstance.
Oreskovich said the dispatch indicated Zehm was “taking money, scaring girls, running. (Officers) will say yes, in our minds, we are investigating something more serious,” he said.
Van Sickle said he will not prohibit the mention of the word robbery “but it allows that to be open to cross examination,” he said. “That doesn’t go to innocence, that goes to the fact pattern of what occurred around the ATM machine.”
1992 murder trial begins against sex offender 
ChefGus/ John Olsen on October 24 at 1:30 p.m.
This attorney for Thompson… is an absolute Slime bag…. good grief… “dismiss” has He bothered to look at the tapes…. Otto was at his regular zip trip doing his regular purchase… the local neighborhood cops likely know/knew him…. etc… and I Know Meth addicts… by the hundreds….. and Otto’s actions and his skin and his teeth show Not one inkling of “meth” addiction… how the hell can they attack the victim??? this Ad Hominem crap is beyond any decency…. in fact the phrase “Have You No Decency ?” from the fifties comes to mind…. All of the whole police force should be absolutely ashamed of their seeming complicity in this sort of crap by their continued intransigence with regards the “Oversight” they so clearly need… and the oversight that would make them safer on the streets themselves… john/ChefGus House of Charity Volunteer..
Shadedmuse on October 24 at 1:38 p.m.
Chief Gus are you a Police Chief? Why do they call you Chief Gus?
Is Victor Boutros related to Boutros Boutros Gali former head of U.N?
Why was the lady arrested for missing a flight? Who flys to Yakivegas from SpoTroit? it would be quicker and cheaper to Drive to Yakivegas.
ChefGus/ John Olsen on October 24 at 1:53 p.m.
Shade’ I love you so….:)) gus
misjustice on October 24 at 2:23 p.m.
I sincerely hope that the cops, in their over zealous attempts to help their buddy, “open the door”…savvy?
Truthhurts on October 24 at 2:43 p.m.
Oreskovich has crossed the line from zealous advocacy to misleading the tribunal.
What is making people (like Verner and Hessions, especially) so willing to keep digging and digging deeper holes?
Are they addicted to injustice?
It is time to confess, be contrite, and seek to remedy the heinous murder, which pales in comparison to the cover-up.
Marksman on October 24 at 3:01 p.m.
Wahsington should make it legal to defend yourself from attack by law enforcement.
valleyman on October 24 at 3:05 p.m.
Marksman, that is the biggest load of manure I’ve yet to hear from someone on here, other than some of our now banned friends who advocated violence and death against and to law enforcement.
You do not have the right to resist being arrested. You have recourse later, but not during the act of. KNOW your Constitution, don’t be an uniformed bloviator.
misjustice on October 24 at 3:10 p.m.
Well, I guess Ozzie would know about citizens being required to submit to the unlawful use of force. Of course if you get killed by the likes of Hirzel and Thompson, good luck with tryin’ to seek that recourse that he bleats about.
Constitutions were made to be amended. Marksman and any other citizens of the state that wish to can attempt to amend our Constitution. But unless or until that happens we, the citizens, must submit to the likes of Hirzel and Thompson; even if we have done nothing wrong.
Hunterman on October 24 at 3:13 p.m.
I dunno- if someone came running at me and in 2 seconds was beating me over the head I’m sure my military training would have kicked in and I would have taken his head off- uniform or not. Otto didn’t even have time to think, especially when he had no reason to expect an attack.
valleyman on October 24 at 3:27 p.m.
Once again misjustice, you prove you know little to nothing about the laws. To pass a constitutional amendment to allow citizens to use force against law enforcement to resist arrest would unconstitutionally abridge the authority given to law enforcement to use “whatever means are necessary to effect an arrest.”
Typically, you will see a law enforcement officer only meet the level of threat they are faced with. That does not appear to be the case in the Thompson case, and if a jury feels he used excessive force, I hope they throw the book at him.
It is a load of puckey however to believe that we should empower citizens to decide when and if they are to submit to the authority of law enforcement. You would see a significant rise in the number of dead people because they violently resisted efforts to legally take them into custody and the police were forced to escalate.
Don’t confuse a couple cases with the daily actions of the fine men and women who wear the badge.
mossback on October 24 at 3:43 p.m.
True Story: About two years ago the SPD were called to my neighborhood, A young man was vandalizing and destroying property, when the police arrived, I heard the main cop say to the other cops, ” Form a bullpen around the suspect and Otto Zehm him if you have to!”…. these are a wicked group of men, I hope they get the punishment deserved.
misjustice on October 24 at 3:49 p.m.
Well, okay Ozman, if you say so. After all, it’s just a “couple cases” just a few dead bodies, so it doesn’t matter. Because it’s us and not you and yours. Dead citizens, no big deal.
I keep hearing about all these fine folks that wear the badge. How can we tell them from the notsofine folks that wear the badge? How can we tell if we are dealing with a Hirzel, or a Thompson? We can’t…or how can we tell if we are dealing with a Moses or a Raleigh? We can’t…
Yeah, you and your boyz get to use whatever means necessary, even if a citizen has not broken the law and we are just supposed to submit. Then you all cover up for each other and your buddy no charge Tucker ensures that no charges are ever filed. And then you wonder why some folks hate/mistrust cops?
Ozman, your SPD buddies messed up on this one though; the cameras caught it all and there is no amount of posturing or bullying or using your badge that you can do to justify what those cameras captured. And you know it. If it wasn’t for those tapes Thompson would have walked, like your boy Hirzel.
After the Feds put Thompson away I hope they clean house at the SPD and the Sheriff’s Department. Especially since all those so-called good cops aren’t gonna do it. The culture of cop corruption has to end, one way or another.
brianrbreen on October 24 at 3:54 p.m.
John,
Please, he is just doing his job., and if it was beyond that. I swear I will tell you if he is not! The real issue is far beyond R and D as it is for you. Having said that. Here I am just trying to explain to my grand kids that cops are good. The only thing I’m saying, is Karl Thompson is a coward. Look what he has done to some people to protect his ass.
BTW, Erin, thank you so much for testifying to the truth that this guy told you that Zehm hit him in the mouth and there were signs of injury. Good job kid, perhaps people can see there is hope, and in the end it will be up to you.
zelda on October 24 at 3:54 p.m.
Interesting that a key witness against Thompson couldn’t make it to court and had to be apprehended by U.S. Marshals. Maybe something is going on that’s quite apart from it being an emotional day for her from a family standpoint.
Shadedmuse on October 24 at 3:57 p.m.
Marksman where is Wahsington?
Ron_the_Cop on October 24 at 3:59 p.m.
WOW!
The feds indeed are definitely playing hardball. They hauled in a material witness they arrested and jailed in Yakima to testify this morning. This witness according to other reports missed two previous flights. The feds definitely wanted to put her on the stand to counter Ofc. McIntyre’s testimony last week.
This is a Zip Trip employee was in the office when Ofc. McIntyre was watching the video and heard Ofc. McIntyre make several statements as to the “lunge” and baton strikes.
The feds just delivered a broadside. Ofc. McIntyre on Friday was trying to walk back her testimony previously given to the grand jury. This witness is countering the testimony giving by Ofc. McIntyre on Friday.
It’s obvious that these officers have not been held to this level of scrutiny before in Steve Tucker’s bush league. You can read my previous comments on the testimony in this trial here:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/oct/22/officers-claim-intimidation/?comments#c360996
and also my analysis of the testimony given by Ofc. Moses and Ofc. McIntyre last Friday here:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/oct/21/officers-say-fbi-forced-incriminating-testimony/?comments#c360827
I agree with Valleyman to let this criminal process proceed to its logical conclusion. What we are seeing is probably a small minority of the many good men and women trying to do a good job day in and day out.
However I wouldn’t be so kind to the SPD leadership because from the federal proffer of April 2010 it is clear to me that there was an active/overt coverup that was instituted by a now retired Deputy Chief, Al Odenthal, who gave an unlawful order to SPD Det. Ferguson to edit some of the camera views from the tape. And Asst. City Atty Roco Treppiedi saw all of the camera views and reported to Asst. Chief Nicks who was the interim chief at the time there wasn’t anything of significance in these other views. I’m sorry I’m calling foul!!!
Are you listening Mayor Verner? Your ship is sinking fast.
WAKE UP SPOKANE!
misjustice on October 24 at 4:09 p.m.
@ Zelda, maybe Rocco got to her?
Just guessin’…
Ron_the_Cop on October 24 at 4:16 p.m.
Brian,
I agree Ofc. Raleigh was the most credible of the officers I’ve seen testifying so far. I’ve been in dog piles before to control subjects. He didn’t arrive on the scene until later when the fight was on. He had no clue what had started the fight. He also asked for a cloth mask for universal precaution reasons - the blood coming from Zehm’s mouth. Apparently no one had one and the plastic one was supplied without the O2. Haven’t heard who applied the mask to Zehm yet.
In my mind this was an unauthorized/sanctioned use and this became a wrongful death case right then and there. This is why the civil case should have been settled many moons ago.
Shadedmuse on October 24 at 4:19 p.m.
If the witness doesn’t fly will the feds provide a bus/train or pay for fuel to drive to Yakivegas, I know when you have jury duty they will pay your milage and if you live out of twon they will put you up you dont have to make a long drive to covrt Hovse their I spelled it like its spelt in front on the sign II notuced they use V’s instead of U’s. whats up with that?
detroitdude on October 24 at 4:22 p.m.
Be an apologist for gestapo tactics on another thread. This thread is about the trial of a police officer who’s direct actions led to the wrongful death of a wrongly accused man.
With this trial going down, they have shown the jury the surveillance video, right? RIGHT!?
detroitdude on October 24 at 4:25 p.m.
Since when is it standard to place a mask over a subdued and cuffed suspect? Especially when you have like eight people there? Sh** stinks to high heaven, justice for Otto!
Truthhurts on October 24 at 4:27 p.m.
Van Sickle made one brilliant ruling today:
Van Sickle previously ruled that Zehm’s innocence and toxicology report – which was clean – be barred from the trial. The judge said he would consider any unsolicited comments about Zehm being on drugs to “open that door.”
This ruling was in case some police want to say “Zehm looked like he was on ________.” In that case, the jury will learn he was innocent. Great ruling to help keep the police in line.
And, critics of Steve Tucker are quite right. He is moving from the inept category to the corrupt, very quickly.
Truthhurts on October 24 at 4:29 p.m.
Valleyman: Not to create a huge digression, but a constitutional amendment to allow self-defense against police would trump any prior interpretation regarding police rights.
Remember, our Founding Fathers were opposed to a standing army, and police are a standing army.
Truthhurts on October 24 at 4:41 p.m.
In short, a “constitutional amendment,” by definition, cannot be “unconstitutional.”
detroitdude on October 24 at 4:41 p.m.
“Valleyman: Not to create a huge digression, but a constitutional amendment to allow self-defense against police would trump any prior interpretation regarding police rights.”
Thank you.
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 4:51 p.m.
@Valleyman:
I have to laugh at your legal analysis that amending the constitution would be illegal because law enforcement officers have a constitutional right to arrest you without you resisting.
First, please point out the clause in either the Federal or State constitutions regarding law enforcement officer’s “constitutional right” to arrest someone without them resisting.
Second, please point out the case law thats states an amendment to the constitution is unconstitutional if it attempts to amend an existing constitutional right?
BTW, I am not for any such amendment, but you sir seem to know very little about constitutional rights. Also, BTW, you can resist an unlawful arrest by a law enforcement officer if the arrest involves the unlawful use of force and there is an immediate danger to yourself regarding the loss of life.
misjustice on October 24 at 5:06 p.m.
Aw guys, cut the Sheriff some slack…citizens do have to obey “lawful orders” by the coppers. That was the argument that got Hirzel off the proverbial hook when he killed Mr. Creach.
Remember? The Spokesman ran an extensive story on this issue after Mr. Creach was killed on his own property.
“Spokane County Prosecutor Steve Tucker and other legal experts say the law is crystal clear on this point: a person must follow a lawful order from police.”
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/17/when-police-issue-order-only-legal-choice-comply/
ChefGus/ John Olsen on October 24 at 5:18 p.m.
Frank Malone for prosecutor….. that’s all… Spokane voted against their own best interests… again.. j
Shadedmuse on October 24 at 5:38 p.m.
If Tucker is so INEMPT then why was he RE-Elected TWICE? sounds to me Tucker must be a pretty good guy to get re-elected twice. is it because he is a Repiblican-tea-bagger and all they need to do is nominate a stump and the stump still wins county wide.
Al French ran a campain based on lies and Defamation and he won, if we were italy Al French would be in Prison for defamation.
brianrbreen on October 24 at 5:52 p.m.
@Valleyman
You are on, any time. If your position is that it’s okay for a cop to run in and club the sh%t out of a guy with his baton, that’s fine. Or pump five rounds into a truck with another cop standing there with a Glock to the drivers head, then okay. If you want to try and prove your point that the issue is what is reasonable based on what he knew at the time then fine, and if you think he believed it was a “stick up” then what would you do. Thompson was told on his way in, there was no money stolen, I have no idea how you did it over there(not as much as I did I bet), my guess is that despite how you would like to present cops in a good light, and try and be right with respect Gardner etc. You have to be embarrassed. Would you do on the stand what the SPD cops did or is that the way it worked over there?
If you want to prove a point about Gardner etc. which the defense will try and do, then do it based on facts, and if you think this guy is a good cop, that tells me a lot. I’m not sorry about the fact I believe this guy is nothing more then a phony piece of crap that will take every one he can to protect himself with him.You might note every cop on the job has my name and unlike a lot of people I could care less.
If this chicken sh@t cared about anyone other then him self, he would have pleaded a long time ago. Unless of course he really believes he is innocent. Now, I use my real name with out any concern about what the cops might do, how about you.
Kivaari on October 24 at 5:52 p.m.
Truthhurts, Common sense would dictate that your proposal is nuts. Civilian police are not a standing army.
Our citizens have essentially abandoned the state militias.
The National Guard and Reserves are NOT the state militia.
Most of the USAF is composed of reserves. Almost all of the fighter jocks and hospital planes are flown and crewed with reserves. Much of our Navy (including the Marine Corp of the Navy) is comprised of reserve officers and men. Our full-time Army is smaller then it appears, since most soldiers are only serving a few years of “active duty” and then are sent to the “reserves” for the remainder of their 6 year commitment.
We gave up on the militias in 1903, with the adoption of the Dick Act. We found we could not fight a war in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the RPI, by taking command of state forces. The governors objected to having their troops taken for a federal war. We sent essentially untrained state guard and militia units to fight like drunken boy scouts. Following that act we now had militia units under the command of the governors and the new National Guard/reserves (they are NOT state troops).
As far as this trial, I hope justice is delivered.
valleyman on October 24 at 5:56 p.m.
You folks are squirrel-hunting-fall-acorn-nuts!
@Truthhurts: Quoting “Remember, our Founding Fathers were opposed to a standing army, and police are a standing army.” If you consider a police force to be a standing army, you have no grasp of history. Police forces operate on a state/local level and are thus, not a national standing army but would be more closely considered a militia for state purposes and as such is thus encouraged by the founders. If you believe we ought to operate on this principle, then by all means let us dismantle our actual standing army and become the kicking toy of the world writ-large. What a foolish comment.
Also, if a constitutional amendment cannot be, by definition unconstitutional, how is it that the courts are still fighting over whether or not California citizens have the right to ban, by constitutional amendment, same sex marriage? The argument is that this act violates another section of the constitution. So I guess the courts have the definition all wrong huh?
To argue that a constitutional amendment thus trumps any prior constitutional clause is flat wrong.
@Slightlyworried: You are correct that you can resist an unlawful use of force. That definition is very vague however and you know as well as I do that what average Joe citizen thinks is excessive courts do not agree is such, and do you want every person resisting arrest and getting their butts kicked because they did so and the police had a legitimate reason for arresting/detaining them?
As to the constitutional question, the authority in the state of WA is given under RCW 10.31.100 - http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=10.31.100. This is a legal document. Also, if we want to get super technical, the WA Constitution under Article XI, Section 11 gives local municipalities the authority to sanction how their police departments work provided it does not abridge state law, and state law, as referenced above provides for the authority to arrest and does not allow for resistance to such arrest unless excessive force is used. Again, who gets to define what is excessive - the courts, not the individual.
@misjustice: Aside from the mocking tone, that interpretation is both lawful and has precedent.
valleyman on October 24 at 6:03 p.m.
@brianbreen: Calm down already… I’m not for a moment arguing that what Thompson did was right. I’ve said as much in multiple posts. I’m merely responding to the typical “paint everything with the same brush” crowd that gets on here and spouts off. You aren’t part of that group, at least I didn’t think so until the above comment, where you seem more than a little unhinged.
I understand perfectly the issues at hand here in the Zehm case. I understand Tucker dropped the ball. I understand SPD did a lousy job (being generous because of language constraints) in investigating this. There have been blunders every step of the way in the Zehm case. Unless I see something to convince me otherwise in the defense presentation, the prosecution has shown Thompson acted in an unreasonable and unjustified fashion and should be found guilty for using excessive force.
This does not give folks cart-blanche to get on here and make such incredibly stupid statements as for the need to get average citizens to resist lawful arrest. If it is proved Thompson used excessive force (and I believe it will be) then Zehm had a legal right to resist. This is a decision that must and can only be made in hindsight however or we will have a society that is without law. As a former officer you know damned well that is the case.
Now can we please go back to being on the same side on this one?
brianrbreen on October 24 at 6:08 p.m.
@Valleyman
Sorry just really mad at what is going on!
misjustice on October 24 at 6:11 p.m.
What mocking tone?
Geez, see what I get for standing up for the coppers?
It’s a lose lose situation. Criticize them and you’re a dirty rotten law breakin’ subhuman squirrelly nut gatherin’ cop hater. Stand up for them and you are using a mocking tone?
There’s just no pleasin’ you guyz, is there?
brianrbreen on October 24 at 6:11 p.m.
@Valleyman
Any cop would be pissed about this, maybe it’s just harder for me.
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 6:11 p.m.
@Valleyman:
Thank you for admitting there is no legal authority for your assertion that:
“To pass a constitutional amendment to allow citizens to use force against law enforcement to resist arrest would unconstitutionally abridge the authority given to law enforcement to use ‘whatever means are necessary to effect an arrest’.”
A constitutional amendment to allow citizens to resist arrest, while a very idea in my mind, would in fact be constitutional. Ironically, such an amendment would make the statute you quoted as unconstitutional. Or in other words, the exact opposite of what you stated as fact. Police officers only have a statutory right—not a constitutional right—to use “whatever means necessary to effect an arrest.”
And if you law enforcement officers don’t want your precious statute modified, I suggest you put down the steroids, reread the law, retake your oath to uphold the law, report misconsuct by fellow officers and get pyschological help if you think Karl Thompson was justified in what he did.
We, your not so loyal subjects, are getting tired of how you rule.
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 6:15 p.m.
@Valleyman:
You know why we paint every police officer with the same paint brush? It’s because they all act alike. Please name me one officer who responded to Zip Trip that night who did not: (1) use excessive force, (2) violate department procedures, or (3) help Karl Thompson cover up what he did?
What are the chances that the dozen officers who responded that night were the only dirty cops in Spokane? Zero. We have a department wide problem. It is as plain as the nose on the end of your face (unless of course you are wearing a badge).
misjustice on October 24 at 6:18 p.m.
“We, your not so loyal subjects, are getting tired of how you rule.”
And that scares the beejebus outta Ozman and his boyz. Imagine if we the lowly unwashed masses, enmass, resisted them? Oy vey!
misjustice on October 24 at 6:23 p.m.
Mr. Bloggy the Ozman ain’t gonna “like” your post; definately an “unlike” kinda post where the coppers are concerned.
brianrbreen on October 24 at 6:24 p.m.
@Misjustice
What really hurt is that he was a lawyer.
misjustice on October 24 at 6:25 p.m.
Oh, ouch!
brianrbreen on October 24 at 6:58 p.m.
@Misjustice
I just hope that people read Erin’s report, and compare it to his GJ testimony and his court testimony including cross. For the most part it will go unnoticed by the public, it won’t for me, because it proves my point. The media won’t make a big deal about it because they don’t understand the importance. When he goes back to work, there won’t be a lot said. But if anyone makes a book he will be the guy that can say honestly to his grand kids, Thompson told me he got hit in the mouth and there wasn’t any sign of injury. Zehm’s mouth was bleeding., and Zehm’s last words were “ I just wanted a snickers bar”.
Important to me, but not most people.
misjustice on October 24 at 7:08 p.m.
Important to me, also. I read the Federal Proffer and have read the court testimony available through news reports. And I have asked on other threads relating to Thompson’s trial “why was Otto bleeding from the mouth”; in response to Ron’s query about who obtained the plastic (non) breather mask and who placed in on poor Otto.
No one, including Ozman the answer man, answered my question about why Otto was bleeding from the mouth.
I have no idea how to obtain the GJ testimony. Isn’t that usually kept secret? The Proffer refered to it but did not provide it in total.
The_Seer on October 24 at 7:33 p.m.
jadedruse: Did you miss the part where they apprehended this material witness in California? Hence it makes sense to fly her to “Yakivegas, “ right?
The Zip Trip should never have allowed the tape to leave their premises prior to making a duplicate copy in the presence of managers, owners and the police. The idea that this evidence that could later be easily destroyed or altered by the ones it would be used to implicate is beyond me. Luckily the ATM footage was not subject to the same arrangement.
Are these motions/rulings for dismissal by the defense heard by the jury or during times when the jury is not present?
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 7:41 p.m.
The comments on this forum are a living justification of why we are a country of laws, not lynch-mobs. Do any of you (definitely not directed at Brian) have the slightest understanding that the chance of a successful appeal are significantly reduced by a well mounted defense? Mr. Oreskovich is doing exactly what a very competent attorney would do…ardently and adroitly defending his client. When major outcomes are at stake, both sides need to work very hard to make their view prevail.
misjustice on October 24 at 7:56 p.m.
Oops! I told you Mr. Bloggy…definately an “unlike”… and now your post has been removed.
misjustice on October 24 at 7:58 p.m.
“The comments on this forum are a living justification of why we are a country of laws, not lynch-mobs.”
Yup, I see what you mean. The lynch-mob that was unleashed in the Zip Trip was the judge, jury, and executioner. Poor, poor Otto; he never had a chance against that angry lynch-mob.
brianrbreen on October 24 at 8:09 p.m.
@Misjustice
The transcripts can be made available. Once the case is over, they are however very expensive, especial for the number of witnesses in this case. You can target a particular witness, but you are still looking at around $2.75 bucks a page( cost of transcription).
As far as Otto’s mouth is concerned, there are a number of ways he could have received that injury, It could have been from the baton, or after the baton, hard to prove where, better left alone.
Looks like tomorrow we get to hear, what an out of control maniac Otto was. Keep in mind that the cops taking the stand are those that the defense’s own expert says are responsible for Otto’s death by sitting on top of him, that isn’t allowed in during this trial. However if this ever goes anywhere else with respect to violations of P&P, and a manslaughter issue these are the guys who the defense expert says killed Otto. Their testimony will be interesting. I anticipate they will say Otto was totally out of control, they have never had anyone that strong and violent before and it was a terrible task to control him. It will be interesting to see if CO puts his expert on the stand who concluded that these guys are responsible for Otto’s death. Good luck guys, I’d take the 5th, unless you honestly believe you didn’t violate policy and procedure, and there is no manslaughter issue. I think the prosecution has some experts that will say it ain’t right to sit on a “hog-tied” suspect, even some SPD people. Keep in mind in a State Criminal
Case they can use Dr. Davis.
What do you think Steve, I know what I would say to my kid, but maybe its all for Karl.
@SpokaneCitizen
As you know, I expect only the best from CO, and Thompson will get it. That is his job and he will do it with the highest of ethical standards even though some people don’t understand that. What bothers me and its not his fault is there will be some people hanging. That’s not his fault, he has a duty to his client and if they aren’t smart enough to understand that that’s their problem.
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 8:11 p.m.
@misjustice:
You beat me to it. The “lynch mob” in Otto’s case was Karl Thompson (with an assist from every police officer that arrived that night).
@Spokane_Citizen:
I find it ironic that you are demanding that citizens, who have had the chance to watch the video, to keep an open mind and not act like a “lynch mob” when in fact it was Thompson who took it upon himself to be, as misjustice put it, “judge, jury and executioner” for Otto Zehm.
Truthhurts on October 24 at 8:12 p.m.
1) Calm down. We did not have “standing armies” for foreign adventures back then. Now we do.
2) Sheriffs and their (volunteer) posses were not a standing army of police. Sure. We have nearly a million police in America. No doubt, the anonymity of the city and the lack of capacity for self-defense make this million-person standing DOMESTIC army necessary.
3) We pick and choose which ideas of the Founding Fathers we like these days, and that is how it should be, and how they wanted it. (No “original intention” theorists existed back then — government was a practical tool.) That said, police are a standing army for use against domestic enemies.
4) We need to end the “war on_____________[consensual contracts between adults].” Then we can see how many police we really need to protect our persons and property, and to see how well we can control the police when we are not blinded by domestic warfare and the policies that create that warfare.
Otto Zehm’s murder and the sense of entitlement to a cover-up are a result of too many decades of (domestic!) “wars on” the consensual contracts of citizens.
MrBloggy on October 24 at 8:17 p.m.
if cops bust into your house and don’t identify themselves and aren’t showing badges, etc and you believe, reasonably, that you are being attacked, you can defend yourself w lethal force. The key element is they didn’t id. Generally this has happened during narco raids w undercovers coming in hot and fast and citizens have shot them and been exonerated.
brianrbreen on October 24 at 8:19 p.m.
@Misjustice
Did one of my completely innocent posts get tossed? Only someone with a terrible dirty mind could have misconstrued that.
misjustice on October 24 at 8:22 p.m.
“Their testimony will be interesting. I anticipate they will say Otto was totally out of control, they have never had anyone that strong and violent before and it was a terrible task to control him.”
Brian, I hope one of ‘em slips and mentions meth; it’ll open the door!
; )
I read some of the testimony of the defense’s medical witness today on another source, Dr. James Nania, an emergency physician who worked at Deaconess Medical Center for 30 years. He contradicted everything that the ME testified to, including that he did not see anything to indicate that Otto had taken baton strikes to the head. No railroad tracks, no bruising, no trauma on the CT Scan, no nothin’…
misjustice on October 24 at 8:24 p.m.
Yup Brian! You rascal!
; )
Truthhurts on October 24 at 8:25 p.m.
One of the Founding Fathers’ ideas we should retain is the idea that your property, life, and person need to be protected from unreasonable searches and seizures.
Zehm was unreasonably beaten to death.
But the cover-up is the great crime here. If there had been no cover-up, we could have had a straight-forward inquiry into the use of force against a citizen. Ordinary inquiry into an ordinary wrong.
Instead, to have Treppiedi creating a big lie, and to have other City Attorneys, and Hession, and then Verner, go along, is an enormous wrong.
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 8:25 p.m.
@BrianBreen:
I agree tomorrow is going to be very interesting. I wonder if those other cops have actually thought about why the DOJ did not charge Thomspon with Otto’s death. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out who is getting charged next and with what charges, regardless of the outcome of the this trial. At a minimum, they all lied about placing Otto on his back after cuffing him. The video clearly shows Otto on his stomach with their collective knees in his back and on his head. Either these guys are some kind of stupid or they have brass ones.
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 8:27 p.m.
@Truthhurts:
Don’t forget Trippedi’s number one co-conspirator: Steve Tucker (a dishonest cop’s best friend).
misjustice on October 24 at 8:27 p.m.
I agree, Truth, the cover-up is the greater crime. It entails much more than just the dirty cop Thompson. Much, much more.
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 8:27 p.m.
@Slightlyworried, I fully understand your anger, but your comments illustrate precisely why these cases must be decided in an arena other than the ‘court of public opinion’.
Truthhurts on October 24 at 8:30 p.m.
Anyway, Van Sickle has cheered me up that he is going to let Oreskovich hang his client with the excessive theatrics of Oreskovich coming back to allow more of the Zehm story to go to the jury.
Truthhurts on October 24 at 8:33 p.m.
Slightly: As I posted, above. Until this trial I just thought Steve Tucker was lazy and useless. Now, I am convinced that you and others are correct: Tucker is fully corrupt.
Time to recall him and then Verner.
(Condon now says he learned of the importance of the Zehm case while door-belling, but he came to the issue too late, I believe, to unseat Verner.)
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 8:35 p.m.
@Spokane_Citizen:
You got it completely backwards, Karl Thompson’s actions illustrate precisely why we need to overhaul the SPD. Our venting on this blog didn’t kill an innocent citizen. But Thompson’s rage has left one man dead. The only “lynch mob” that needs to change is the SPD. But those who blindly support the police—regardless of the videotaped evidence—are the problem.
Truthhurts on October 24 at 8:35 p.m.
Misjustice: You are also correct. We must keep digging through the cover-up to end the entire process so that no more Zehm-style cover-ups occur.
Truthhurts on October 24 at 8:36 p.m.
Slightly is right: We need to beg the Feds to keep digging and digging until the culture of falsifying evidence to hide police-crime is entirely rooted out.
brianrbreen on October 24 at 8:41 p.m.
@Misjustice
Jim Nania is a good guy, and has a lot of ER experience. I think it was covered in the prosecutions case in chief, but their job is to save people not document injuries, especially those that aren’t life threatening. Any good homicide detective knows there are going to be a whole lot more injuries evident at the post then is recorded on the ER report, or even observed by the ER people. Like a 22 caliber bullet that went through the beard of a guy under the chin so no bleeding was obvious and WE, including ME, thought it was a hypothermia death until the post and the x-rays plainly showed the bullet in his head. Boy did I take heat for that, the only saving grace I had was that the ER people didn’t note it, or see it either.
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 8:43 p.m.
Truthhurts…the more you rant, the more you justify my position. If departmental corruption is indeed widespread and systemic, then it will be handled in court….not in this blog, nor from the corner barstool.
Ron_the_Cop on October 24 at 8:54 p.m.
Slightlyworied,
Point of law. The feds don’t have a murder/manslaughter statute/jurisdiction. These are state crimes unless there is a federal statute directly on point. What is being charged is that Ofc. Thompson with specific intent violated Zehms civil rights under color of authority.
If I were Treppiedi I would be puckering up now too.
And BTW did this Police Psych they had this afternoon get his Phd from a diploma mill? http://tinyurl.com/3gtohg6
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 8:56 p.m.
@Spokane_Citizen
Now you have completely lost me. You really believe that this blog is not the right place to criticize our government? Thomas Paine is spining in his grave.
I have said it before and I will say it again: Please name me one police officer responding to the Zip Trip that night that did not: (1) use excessive force, (2) violate a department policy that directly led to Otto’s death, or (3) assist in the cover up of (1) and (2)? What are the chances that the only 12 corrupt cops in the department were the exact same 12 that responded that night? Absolutely zero.
When you go 12 for 12, that is proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, that something is really wrong. I am done drinking the SPD, SCSO, and WSP Kool-Aid.
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 9:00 p.m.
@Ron_The_Cop:
Thank you for the clarification re: murder charges in Federal Court. However, can they be charged with violating Otto’s civil rights by violating SPD policy re: unapproved spit guard, hog-tie on stomach, and knees to the back? That seems just as brutal as Thompson’s seven baton strikes.
misjustice on October 24 at 9:03 p.m.
@ Brian, I think that Dr. Narnia was asked two years ago to review the police files on Otto’s injuries. I’m not convinced that the police gave him a complete file. I know, surprise!
brianrbreen on October 24 at 9:03 p.m.
@Truthhurts
People might take this in the wrong way, but I really don’t think many of the cops understand where this might go, or they may think it will go away after the trial. I don’t know Steve Braun Jr. I do know his dad, a good guy but not a whole lot of experience. Having read all the proffers from both sides and having a little experience in this area I would never allow my son on the stand. He would take five, to protect himself and to heck with Karl Thompson. But it’s not my gig so what happens, happens, and I’ve been wrong before.
I was right once though, the time I tried to warn some people about a guy, and no one wanted to listen.
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 9:05 p.m.
Slightlyworried…there is absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing our government in any venue you select…just don’t confuse your therapeutic blogging with anything of real substance. I’m pretty sure Thomas Paine’s moldering remains are resting quietly despite your dramatic statements to the contrary. In the scheme of things, injustices occur, and we even manage to rectify some of them, but your apparent belief that your indignant bloggings make much difference is quite naive.
misjustice on October 24 at 9:06 p.m.
Ron what Police Psyc are you referring to?
brianrbreen on October 24 at 9:09 p.m.
@Spokane_Citizen
You have to admit, it’s kinda fun!
D Statler on October 24 at 9:09 p.m.
I hope that these rambos in blue don’t think they are the only ones trained and capable to protect themselves. The biggest standing army in the world are we the American people. I do not use three shot bursts to make my point. My point is usually delivered with one shot. Take your rookie selves back to where you came from. If you lilly livered lolli pop guilders were real men.You would step up and police yourselves. This mess would have never got to this point!
Of the ten officers involved.Not one would intervene to stop the killing. This fact alone makes me sick to my stomach. I suppose a squirt gun or a rock in your pocket is ample reason to end someones life.
Lets hope that when this cloud settles. Officer Thompson is not the only one to take a hard fall.
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 9:11 p.m.
Brian…of course it’s fun, but let’s not confuse it with really making a difference in the community! Talk, including blogtalk, is cheap.
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 9:15 p.m.
Undooly…you need to go sleep it off before you get yourself in trouble.
Ron_the_Cop on October 24 at 9:16 p.m.
Justy,
From the twitter feed #zehm:
katieutehs Katie Utehs
Lewinski says Ofc. should get one to 2 nights sleep. #karlthompson was given 4 nights and a pre-interview says gov’t. #zehm
3 hours ago
Meghann Cuniff
meghanncuniff Meghann Cuniff
Lewinski: “It does start w/ the officer’s knowledge that what they have done is excessive force.” Cop must recognize it to cover it up #zehm
3 hours ago
kxly
kxly4news kxly
Dr. William Lewinski now takes the stand this afternoon. Judge says today will likely go longer than usual.#zehm
4 hours ago
KHQ Local News
KHQLocalNews KHQ Local News
“At the 11th hour to provide this information to me is not timely.” - Judge Van Sickle as he rules to allow Dr. Lewinski’s testimony. #Zehm
brianrbreen on October 24 at 9:18 p.m.
@Spokane_Citizen
You might be surprised, how some blog talk can make a difference. I had no idea, until I broke my foot, if the damn thing would just heal, I’m outa here. Then again if I have to have it pinned you are on for six more weeks.
misjustice on October 24 at 9:19 p.m.
I dunno, I think that indignant blogging can lead to a sense of community; the knowledge that we aren’t the only ones thinking that there is something fishy in Spokan’t.
Where as if no one says anything and just keeps their suspicions to themselves then there is no hope for justice or an end to the run away corruption and overt police violence perpetrated against citizens. I could be wrong, I often am.
I have noticed that the cop lovers that used to post on every thread involving the police have stopped contributing to these threads about Thompson. Maybe even they realize that there is something fishy in Spokan’t; something that even they can no longer defend.
I dunno, I could be wrong.
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 9:23 p.m.
@Spokane_Citizen:
I like how you pretended in your post that you didn’t say what you said in your second to last post.
And, please, just answer this question:
Name one police officer—just one—who responded that night that didn’t: (1) use excessive force, (2) violate department policies that directly led to the death of an innocent person, or (3) participate in the cover up of (1) and (2).
If the answer to my question proves my point, just ignore it and personally attack me.
misjustice on October 24 at 9:29 p.m.
Thanks Ron. What makes you think he’s a Phoenix?
jddavis on October 24 at 9:30 p.m.
MisJ—
I have been reading this blog with great interest. A lot of input from several folks that have, on many other subjects, differed greatly on their opinions. On this matter, everyone seems to be united in thought.
No matter the outcome of this trial, the citizens must demand change in city government, law enforcement, and justice system. As terrible as what happened to Otto is, it may well serve as the impetus for change.
If Thompson is found guilty, that alone isn’t sufficient.
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 9:31 p.m.
Brian, I enjoy your continuing comments (you are a very rational, experienced, and even-handed individual) but I hope your foot heals soon. I’m sure you’ll be around, either way.
Most citizens barely read the newspaper (certainly not much beyond the headlines, if that), and even fewer read the attached blogs in the web versions (every article in every online newspaper/news site has the same variations on the same predictable irritable comments). This is fully demonstrated by the small group of repetitive SR posters….it doesn’t change much….there’s no community ‘ground swell’….just comments from the few people for which this particular issue resonates.
As far as the general public is concerned, Otto Zehm isn’t even on the radar screen compared to their water bill. The voting public is heavily populated with the ‘low-information voter’…if they bother to vote at all.
zelda on October 24 at 9:38 p.m.
Maybe folks on this thread should be thinking ahead a few steps. What are we going to do when Thompson is acquitted? Just sit all hunched up and type-type-type the night away? Choosing between Verner and Condon is, to paraphrase the late great Mort Sahl, like choosing between Seconal and Nembutal.
But thank God there’s still such a thing as an Impertinent letter to the Spokesman-Review. “Dear Sir: I take pen in hand to express my immense displeasure at the outcome of the Karl Thompson trial. The good citizens of our fair city are vexed. Kind regards, John Q. Public.”
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 9:39 p.m.
Slightlyworried, I’m not going to personally attack you….but your challenge makes no sense. I’m not defending the police department, what happened that night, or arguing against your right to criticize the government. I’m merely stating that your attempt at ‘ciphering’ this legal issue is pointless….it will be handled most adequately in court. All of the blog bluster and outrage is just ‘jibber-jabber’ in the real scheme of things….though it might make you feel better.
brianrbreen on October 24 at 9:40 p.m.
@Spokane_Citizen
I don’t disagree with that. But by the same token, if it ain’t no big deal, then don’t tack a worry on it
Don’t think for a second, I’m not taken it beyond here when the trial is over.
You might have noticed I’m really POd.
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 9:41 p.m.
Zelda….most of our citizens are not at all vexed by this situation; they’re just trying to get through their day…with their own private vexations.
misjustice on October 24 at 9:42 p.m.
What are we going to do when Thompson is acquitted?
I suppose that storm the bastille and heads on pikes are out of the question?
; )
Simmer down, Ozman, I was only joking…
brianrbreen on October 24 at 9:43 p.m.
@Spokane_Citizen
BTW, that is regardless of the outcome of the trial.
Ron_the_Cop on October 24 at 9:44 p.m.
Slightly worried,
Ofc. Raleigh as I said up thread was there to assist. His report and his testimony to the grand jury were consistent. He came across as credible. Brian seems to think so too.
Justy,
Some one pointed out that his degree came from an institution that’s had problems in the past. There’s not indication in his bio when he got his degree. So it’s not clear if he got his degree during this problem period.
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 9:46 p.m.
Brian, as I’ve stated in the past, I have no dog in this hunt. Have at it in any way you see fit.
misjustice on October 24 at 9:47 p.m.
Hmmm, Ron. That could pose a problem. Not like trouble with a capital T but a problem, nonetheless!
Ron_the_Cop on October 24 at 9:48 p.m.
Spokane Citizen,
I rarely agree with you but I agree Spokane citizens are sadly uninformed about the serious ramifications of this case.
Having said that the feds have the bit in their mouth and I may go up the food chain. If I were Treppiedi I would be puckering by now.
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 9:49 p.m.
It’s time for this old man to go to bed. Good night all, and happy dreams!
brianrbreen on October 24 at 9:49 p.m.
@Ron_the_Cop
That guy was nothing. I can’t wait for Rocco’s buddy Blairicom.
brianrbreen on October 24 at 9:52 p.m.
@Spokane_Citizen
I think you know me well enough to know I will.
Spokane_Citizen on October 24 at 9:54 p.m.
Brian…I trust that you will, and don’t really care. These ain’t my chickens!
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 10:03 p.m.
@Spokane_Citizen:
I have obviously struck a nerve with you. I do enjoy you attacking others for their repetitive posts with your own repetitive posts. Again, your failure to answer my question speaks volumes. I look forward to your next condescending response where you tell me that nothing I say on this blog is important while you yourself believe that everything you say on this blog is super important. The irony contained in your posts is not lost on anyone but you.
Lewis on October 24 at 10:07 p.m.
any good cop that stands by as the bad cops kill and lie in my book is a bad cop. if there are in good cops i see none of them standing up.
in my book there are no good cops in this city i sure haven’t seen one or is that one now driving 45 mph up monroe? nope that is another bad cop.
valleyman some of us are still here we just had to use different names to get back in.
eye for an eye,
davidw on October 24 at 10:08 p.m.
I’m probably going to leave this comment thread open overnight but as an FYI the story likely will be pushed off the homepage feed in a couple hours when the electronic versions of the Tuesday print coverage automatically go live.
Thanks for the lively and mostly thoughtful debate.
Reporter Meghann Cuniff will be live Tweeting testimony again tomorrow. Reporter Tom Clouse, in Yakima, is Tweeting noteworthy developments/observations outside the angle of the camera lens that’s sending video feed back to Spokane.
Both also are posting interesting trial-related snippets on the Sirens & Gavels blog that don’t make our print coverage.
David Wasson, deputy city editor
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 10:12 p.m.
@Spokane_Citizen:
You said, ” …most of our citizens are not at all vexed by this situation.”
If you are right, that makes the judge look like an idiot and/or fool for moving the trial (at great expense) to Yakima. I wonder which one of you is right?
Slightlyworried on October 24 at 10:14 p.m.
@whocareinspokane:
be careful with that kind of talk or Spokane_Citizen will open up his Thesarus on you.
Sunshinegurl on October 24 at 10:15 p.m.
Some of us catch up on the blogs as often as possible, I don’t post that much anymore because I have too much going on to take the time, but I do read them and most of the links. I know from talking with friends, coworkers and family that they also read them because not one day has gone by since this trial started that someone hasn’t commented or asked questions about the articles/blogs. None of my family/friends post, they just read and try to keep up to date on what’s happening.
And I know this will seem really random, but I stopped carrying ID because of this case. This is my way of passively resisting Spokane becoming an unchecked police state that prides itself on how well the police department rapes the constitution and our liberties.
Now i just need to figure out how to get a cop to ask me for ID so I can say NO. (without having to break any laws)
Sunshinegurl on October 24 at 10:19 p.m.
Ps…thank you all for the posts we’ll be reading them again tomorrow.
misjustice on October 24 at 10:20 p.m.
whocaresinspokane, heh, heh, heh! Welcome back! I missed you…I was wondering who you were!
; )
sunshinegurl, passively resisting? I like that!
; )
misjustice on October 24 at 10:24 p.m.
Well, whocares, he’s never denied it!
Lewis on October 24 at 10:27 p.m.
misjustice i did not go anywhere one night found out i was blocked from this site no word from sr just blocked. I had to make a alias i don’t like it but the nice thing is the pigs haven’t woke me up in over 2 weeks.
Kivaari on October 24 at 10:29 p.m.
Truth, We had a standing Navy. Our Marines, that small part of the United States Navy, was engaged in actions on the African continent and in Mexico. Comes from the song with words like, “….From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli…”.
Most of our armed forces are reserves. Our national guard system is a reserve componenet of the military to which they get their names.
Your constitutional complaint is odd. People already have a legal recourse against unlawful actions of the police. If you are damaged by a government agent, sue them and the agency.
Fighting arrest on priciple is likely to get you hurt. Going along with an unlawful arrest has a peaceful means to be corrected. Do you want a return to pre-local police where you and your neighbors could arrest and search your neighbors house without warrant? Do you want non-trained people acting as police? That is how it was done in the early days.
I don’t know anyone that actually thinks Thompson and his co-conspirators in the Zehm case acted properly. Thompson over-reacted. But, what about they guys that helped hog-tie Zehm and then sat on him, driving the air from his lungs? Nothing they did that night was within the law or policy.
Lewis on October 24 at 10:33 p.m.
kivaari i hope the feds go after the piglets that sat on ottos back and i pray they take rocky to the cleaners.
fingers crossed, i think if we see a guilty verdict on thompson his buddies will be wearing prison blues too.
Kivaari on October 24 at 10:35 p.m.
Whocares, You are nuts. Pull your licensed weapon on a cop even if you think you are right and I expect you will be shot down. A sane person has little to fear from normal police encounters. The Zehm case isn’t what is normal anywhere including in Spokane. This idiocy of thinking cops are out to get everyone is a psychosis in a few people. Get over it, act like a normal person and there is likely to never be a time where you will be endangered. Unless they let Thompson back on the job.
A decedent may not be able to sue, but his descendants can. Otto’s mom will see some bucks pretty soon. Thompson should see prison. The other thugs should see some repercussions as well - if justice is served.
PlanB on October 24 at 10:50 p.m.
Nania’s testimony was a joke. Consisted of nothing more than a bunch of “I would hope so” and “I would expect”, totally devoid of any medical evidence despite his assertions as such. His claimed time evaluating Otto lacked any physical evidence or documentation. “He looked ok to me” is not a medical diagnoses. Oh, and his supposed area of expertise is not recognized by any legitimate entity. Nania, like most of the officers testifying on behalf of the defense, expect that their “training and experience” should not be questioned and is equivalent to actual evidence regardless of the garbage flowing from their mouths. Sad.
greenlibertarian on October 24 at 11:31 p.m.
Like a 22 caliber bullet that went through the beard of a guy under the chin so no bleeding was obvious and WE, including ME, thought it was a hypothermia death until the post and the x-rays plainly showed the bullet in his head. Boy did I take heat for that, the only saving grace I had was that the ER people didn’t note it, or see it either.
This sort of admission is why I respect Brianbreen’s posts. He’s somewhat cryptic at times, but demonstrates his experience, and that NOTHING is/may be exactly as it seems.
Trials are circuses that mostly result in justice served. Emphasis on mostly, not always. The adversarial system of justice is the best we’ve come up with so far, and yes it is riddled with inequity, but it’s the best we have, despite some truly mind-boggling results, like the OJ trial for example. I understand why that went the way it did based on the SYSTEM, but deep down you know the system actually failed, it ain’t perfect, humans are imperfect, go figger.
mtorres55 on October 25 at 7:41 a.m.
Knowing this long thread is headed for the compost, I have to post anyway.
Several comments have been made that the coverup is the greater crime. Folks, let’s remember that an innocent man was beaten and smothered to death by a group of cops. THAT is the greater crime - an innocent man’s death.
The coverup is the crime that will bring down some of those cops who have been lying since day one, and hopefully the awful Treppeidi. Isn’t it always the coverup that brings ‘em down?
What to do about it? Civilian police oversight, that’s what! Thanks to Treppeidi and other City officials who have been fighting tooth and nail our attempts to achieve it, we have lost the ordinance that put teeth into an otherwise useless ombudsman position.
We’re fighting back. We’re going to see that this police
department has some measure of control over its violence and brutality. We’ll be back with another plan, since the City so clearly destroyed the position two weeks ago.
Some of Council is sincere in wanting control, a couple (Rush and McLaughlin) fought to prevent the recent destruction, but the citizens WILL gain control over this rogue department.
Keep your eyes open for Police Accountability work, and join the struggle!
Meantime, hoping for that “door” to open in the trial….
Lewis on October 25 at 8:20 a.m.
kivaari you have no idea what spokane deals with do you? we had 12 dead bodies last year all justified even though several were staged afterwards for inspectors.
the dodd murder he had a key chain in his hand early photos show the keychain, autopsy shows he had a key chain imprint on his hand when the cops stepped on his hand. but in later photos only the rock is shown.
if i think a cop is going to take me out i will empty my magazine, yes i will die and so will he
we can no longer count on them doing the right thing
eye for an eye
Lewis on October 25 at 8:23 a.m.
yes kivaari ottos mom gets her day 5 years after her son was murdered, while his killer wears a badge.
nope sorry if i think i am going down so will he.
eye for an eye
The_Seer on October 25 at 8:36 a.m.
Zelda: “I’ll take the reds, man.”
Obscure reference… see if anyone gets it. Move on if they don’t.
Bluecollorman on October 25 at 9:28 a.m.
I truly hope that Spokane police Officer Karl F. Thompson Jr. goes to prison and that guys in there have a chance to get him alone in the corner!
Beating up a disabled guy like he did was very uncool.
KARMA for KARL
brianrbreen on October 25 at 9:35 a.m.
@mtorres55
There are many things that can be done to improve accountability without having to worry about guild negotiations. Some of them are evident from the Zehm case. I won’t go into detail but you were right in saying the ombudsman is “Nuttin baby”. It always was and always will be “Nuttin baby” a lot of people just don’t understand that.
Open_Spokane on October 25 at 10:36 a.m.
I’m having a real problem with Dr. Nania’s testimony. Please consider that even though Nania didn’t see any evidence of baton strikes on the CT scan - please consider that Mr. Zehm was brought into the ER in cardiac arrest.
Once resuscitated, Zehm would most likely have minimal vitals and the CT scan wouldn’t show brain trauma immediately. Dr. Nania works in the ER, not the ICU where Otto would have been transferred to for definitive care.
The other thing that is troubling about Nania is his position as County EMS Director. He was in charge of the Paramedics who treated Otto and provided the non-rebreather mask to the police. The mask issue brings up patient abandonment and malpractice for which Nania did nothing about.
Lastly, Dr. Nania’s role in the Excited Delirium protocol needs to be questioned as it was introduced to emergency responders by Roco Treppiedi. Since no medical institution recognizes ED
(excited delirium) as a true medical condition.
Dr. Nania can therfore go down as a co-conspirator with the Spokane Fire and Police Departments in this event. Dr. Nania has done some wonderful things for this community. I am saddened to see him end his career taking part in Officer Thompson’s defense.
misjustice on October 25 at 10:51 a.m.
Plan B, Dr. Nania never examined Otto; he reviewed files provided to him by SPD two years ago…files that I question the completeness of. And YEAH, his testimony was sooooooo obviously tilted in favor of Thompson and the SPD. Disgusting.
Just sayin’…
johnboy on October 25 at 12:01 p.m.
I have been proud to know Dr. Nania professionally for the past 17 years as a emergency responder in Spokane County. In no way is Jim a co-conspiritor. IF some of the posters get over themselves they would see that he was HIRED BY THE DEFENSE!!!!! Of course his testamony is gonna be slanted towards that side. In my career, i have had the privledge to work with many physicians and, found jim to be one of the best with the highest of morals and character standards. To call him a co-conspiritor is just stupid…..you obviously dont know him
The_Seer on October 25 at 4:12 p.m.
johnboy: Yeah, his “highest of morals and character” helped raise a son who became a drug store robbing Oxy addict. Aren’t children the best reflection of a parent’s “morals and character?”
Lewis on October 25 at 10:51 p.m.
wouldn’t the good doctor have some morales and tell the truth and not “side” with anyone?
greenlibertarian on October 25 at 11:05 p.m.
“he_Seer on October 25 at 8:36 a.m.
Zelda: “I’ll take the reds, man.”
Obscure reference… see if anyone gets it. Move on if they don’t”
Got it.
Heh heh heh.
misjustice on October 26 at 11:17 a.m.
Know your rights when you are stopped &/or arrested. This explains much & it’s to long to be posted.
http://www.ohiobar.org/Pages/LawFactsPamphletsDetail.aspx?itemID=21
Maybe this will help some of you that think you don’t have to do as the officers say when stopped. It doesn’t matter that it’s from the Ohio Bar, it’s a rule that stands everywhere.